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Toyota Highlander Hybrid

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    And you can't simply take the next exit and THEN check the Nav...??
  • lizcnyclizcnyc Member Posts: 1
    A simple question...maybe. Im the owner of a 2008 HiHy Limited Edition, no nav, no DVD. Almost everything works great, conservative gas mileage estimate of about 28 mpg, highway and city. Here's the question: when I re-set the MF display to O, I get a reading of MPG down to the decimal point, which is great, but the distance reading is in whole numbers only -- no decimal. So I can't measure distances accurately (i.e. to give directions to my house I might say "It's 2.7 miles from town, etc.) Is this bogus, or did I not read the manual correctly? Help, this minor glitch really irks me.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    I myself drive a FEH, which can be bought for under 30K (and gets over 30 MPG in town, but I digress), but watching the prices paid forums has brought a question to mind.

    I have been noticing that people are paying late 30's and even lower 40's for their HH. I observe that the Lexus RH400 has been selling for 46K or so.

    Isn't it a better idea to put in the extra 4-6 K and get a Lexus instead of the HH? It seems to be that it will have better luxury and hold it's value better.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    There is likely not a general-rule that applies to all, it really depends on individual needs. My info is old, as in 2006, so I may be all wrong about the 400h.

    Resale value makes sense if we switch cars every 2-3 years. I keep our cars until they "die", so resale is less important to my family.

    The 2006 400h and the HH share identical HSD and safety technologies and near identical performance, so I used the HH Limited as the baseline for the 400h. That means the price difference between the two is strictly about additional luxuries. I could not justify the added cost. May be if there is additional safety like a force-field or night-vision overhead display or emergency personal locator service or laser-guided cruise control or collision avoidance system or daily English Tea Service :). Others will disagree of course.

    The last time I looked in 2006, the 400h had less trunk space and was heavier than the HH. The weight pushed the MPG rating down. For suburbanites who carry few things but people, the 400h is a nice cruiser but I often stuff four large backpacks into the trunk for extended back-country trip; the 400h wouldn't work.

    The HH can remain relatively inconspicuous when left at a remote mountain trailhead for 10 days, I would not be comfortable leaving the 400h in such places for that length of time. The HH can sustain some dings slogging through a logging road but I would not want to scratch up a luxury-class 400h.

    In terms of driving comfort, the HH is smooth and relatively quiet with a good set of tires. It handles very well for such a tall heavy car and steering response, while not as nimble as the BMW, is certainly good enough for me. It is not a roadster after all. I drove the 400h way back in 2005 and it was not much different than the HH.

    Our HH returns about 26 mpg per tank using summer gar and 24 mpg using winter gas. Not bad for a large car that carries a bunch of people with a pile of things stuffed in the trunk. We are happy with its gas-mileage.

    So in the end, it seems personal needs will help decide whether the 400h is a better choice.
  • amarkusamarkus Member Posts: 1
    Hi-
    We are currently looking to purchase a new 2008 Highlander Hybrid and were told by one dealer that Toyota is slowing production on the Highlander Hybrid so that they can use the batteries to produce more Prius's. By doing this, the availability of the Highlander Hybrid will go down, therefore increasing the price.

    Has anyone else heard about this? Also, will the 2009 models be any different from the 2008's? I've heard the 09 price may go up as well...we just want to try to get the best deal we can - what's your opinion?

    Thanks!
  • tldtld Member Posts: 37
    I've read a couple 2008 reviews on the Internet stating the 08 Highlander Hybrid isn't the best 4WD because of of the modifications of the Hybrid system... "Though the Toyota Highlander Hybrid is a four-wheel-drive vehicle, it is not very well suited for harsh road or weather conditions." or Edmunds "Bear in mind that this setup differs significantly from the 4WD/all-wheel-drive system on the regular Highlander: There's no center differential and the V6 engine never provides power to the rear wheels. The upshot is that buyers shopping for a serious snow vehicle may not find the hybrid Highlander robust enough to meet their needs."

    For the people that have driven in snow, how would you rate the experience?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    There have been many posts on this here but I do not remember where they are now. It will help if you look back. The following are based on our own first-hand experience.

    The 2008 HSD is identical to the 2006 HSD mechanically. Software likely changed due to the EV mode and other modification for better mileage. So I will assume our experience in our '06 HH will apply for the '08.

    For "off-road", you have to define "off-road". I wrote a long post way back on this so will keep it short here. The HH, like many other SUV, is an on-demand AWD vehicle, not a true 4x4. The HH kicks in the rear wheels ONLY when power is needed or traction is needed. So a front-drive on-demand AWD vehicle is really a simple front-two-wheel-drive most of the time. The rear kicks in only when needed, as determined by the on-board drive computer.

    A true 4x4 allows me to lock the axle so that all four wheels will get power ALL the time regardless of whether it is necessary. This gives a whole ton more flexibility in all sorts of challenging terrain. HH is not in this league.

    On-demand AWD vehicles are NOT suitable for boulder-crawling. 4x4 with locking diff and Lo is, within reason. On-demand AWD high clearance vehicle can handle any dirt road that a normal two-wheel drive vehicle can handle. On-demand AWD high clearance vehicle can handle some challenging dirt road that a normal two-wheel drive sedan and van cannot handle. The key is common sense and safety-first. If you come upon a stretch of forest service dirt road that looks like you will get stuck, trust your instinct and back off. If you ever feel like you need to lock the differential and shift to Lo but you are in the HH, it is time to back off.

    Our HH has handled many dirt roads now. We have hit many that are poorly maintained but nothing that requires a real 4x4 and Lo gear. Its high clearance lets me go where I have to go for work and for camping. Its AWD capabilities helps maintain stability over some muddy slipper patches. We have not encountered a forest service dirt road (in CA), in dry weather, we cannot conquer yet.

    We also have no direct experience with hard sheet-ice. We have driven over about 6 to 8-inch deep slush and loose thin icy chunks without problems. 2 to 4-inch (?) packed based with loose fresh snow on top without problems. Uphill w/o ice was not a problem, neither was downhill. On slick surface due to rain and fallen debris, the safety system kicks in and AWD lets us maintain control. Again, we have not encountered a big layer of ice yet, no help there.

    There were two posters reporting that on icy steep slope up their driveways, the car actually would stop spinning the tires resulting in their HH slowly sliding backwards. One let it slid to the bottom of the hill, gunned the engine and got back to the top. Another advised installing dedicated snow tires. Many of us are using the Nokkian SUV WR for winter driving. It is an All-Season tire with the "Severe Service" emblem.

    Hope this is useful.
  • tourguidetourguide Member Posts: 190
    Greetings All,

    The HiHy made it back on my list recently with fuel prices topping $4. I am within a year of purchasing a new vehicle and I need some information from owners.

    Two main concerns I have with buying this vehicle right now - first, settling on an acceptable price. This in a vehicle that already comes at a premium, but it is of MUCH greater concern to me now with gasoline prices doing what they are.

    Secondly, I have heard some nightmare rumors over routine maintanance items ($1000 brake jobs on the Prius) and such that would essentially KILL whatever meager savings might be accumulated month to month. I have basically calculated that this vehicle would save me about $720 (optimistic prediction) per year over the competitor.

    Not sure if this is for me or not.

    Can any owners tell us a little about your routine mantainance - brakes and such?

    -TG
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Our '06 HH has 40K miles and there is NO such thing as standard regular brake "maintenance" service. It sounds like a competing salesperson bad-mouthing the Prius to sell an Escalade :).

    Standard maintenance is no different than any other car. We do the normal oil, filters and tire rotation. Additional work is on topping off the hybrid coolant and check the 12V and that is it. After 40K miles, we still have over 3/4 of the brake pads left. You can do all this yourself just like any other car.

    Toyota hybrids use regenerative braking to recharge batteries so it uses the mechanical brakes much less than normal cars. The brakes should last longer and it seems to be proving out on our HH. If these brake pads last 100K miles, $1000 for replacement is acceptable.

    Our '94 Sienna brake pads are still the original set and that car has 105K miles. May be it is because we do not do "jack rabbit" start and stop.

    Please note that while the HH is expensive, the price includes the "luxury class" safety system called VDIM. Only Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Lexus and Acura offer something similar.

    So the "premium" in the pricing is paying for the HSD, SULEV II rating, the VDIM safety system and more "luxurious" appointments in the car, not just for gas savings. It is almost impossible to compare the HH to the standard Highlander by just the HSD alone. As you figure in gas savings, don't forget the extras. Think of it as an entry-level Lexus car without the Lexus price.

    Have fun!
  • monte8monte8 Member Posts: 75
    I have a 2008 HH [purchased in early November, 2007]and live in NE North Dakota. The HSD iDrive did fine this winter. Several times I took it into unplowed deeper snow to try and test the limits. When I ran into problems by not having enough momentum, I just stopped, backed up, and then took a new run at the snow. It would just push right through.

    I think the mistake some drivers make with the VDIM system is trying to give it more "gas" when they run into a problem. If the system detects wheel spin, it applies the brake to that wheel. If all of the wheels are spinning, it cuts the power. Simply backing off the throttle a little to allow the tires to regain traction will usually get you through.
  • tourguidetourguide Member Posts: 190
    Thanks for your reply. A lot of what you've said makes me feel better about keeping this HiHy on my list. My concerns remain though about being able to negotiate a fair price. I have a feeling I will need to order, and a few missing features also bug me on a near $50K vehicle - like HID headlights. I was also hoping to get cooled seats. Backup sonar system can be installed aftermarket, but a biggie is how difficult it can be to get a limited without the sunroof. I need the headroom.

    Cargo space is also a compromise but that is a bit down the list for me since we get along OK with the current Hi.

    Thanks for your response. How has your 06 been for reliability? Is it typical toyota?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Price is steep, even back in 05. If not for wife, I likely would not have bought it. We needed a farm/ranch type car but with good mileage and I was not sure the HH was the right choice. I thought it could not handle heavy work and still give good mileage. Now I am a convert. The HH's 26 MPG per tank sure beats our CHevy V8 hands down and the HH takes on our dirt road without problems.

    50K is too much? I read a few posts here of prices around 40 to 42? I may be wrong on info.

    My two biggest gripes were smallish trunk (on the 06 model) and lousy tires. The trunk, even with 3rd row folded, was just a tad small. If we could do away with the intruding wheel wells and third row hand-rests, it would help a lot. I have learned to live with it. Ours came with cheap single-ply side wall van tires. This on a 2+ ton SUV? We ended up changing them after losing one to side wall cut.

    A minor gripe is front seat leg and head room. I am a larger 6-ft male and it took a while to find a good comfortable position for long distance driving. Now that I have worked out a position, it is comfortable. Very good lateral support for a Toyota. May be the 08 has more front seat room.

    I thought the 08 has back-up camera? Is that similar or same as sonar+camera?

    Reliability has been excellent. At 40K, not one single problem and only normal maintenance. With good tires, the car runs smooth, relatively quiet and feels glued to the road. It takes turns with solid stability. Steering response is quiet good though not nimble like a BMW. The VDIM is nice. I used to enjoy the cushy cruiser-like ride of our Sienna on long trips but its imprecise control makes high speed driving (70-75 on I5 in CA) a bit tiring. The HH's better control (with good tires) make hi-speed long distance driving easy. The ample power and handling also makes mountains and winding road easy. Overall, a much less fatiguing car to drive than our van. Your preference may be different of course.

    Good luck with the research!
  • tourguidetourguide Member Posts: 190
    50K is too much? I read a few posts here of prices around 40 to 42? I may be wrong on info.

    MSRP on these things is getting close to $50K optioned the way I want.

    The two deal breakers will be #1) price, and #2) getting one without the sunroof (toyota makes this kind of thing notoriously difficult - but we shall see).

    Going back to price, if I can come in at close to $45 out the door, AND I can get one the way I want sans the sunroof I'll pull the trigger.

    I am pretty pessimistic right now about the stars aligning and everything working out. Makes it difficult when you can't cross shop the dealers. On an order this is difficult to impossible.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "The HH kicks in the rear wheels ONLY when power is needed or traction is needed. So a front-drive on-demand AWD vehicle is really a simple front-two-wheel-drive most of the time. The rear kicks in only when needed, as determined by the on-board drive computer. "

    Good overall summary, but you left out one critical item. Most AWD systems use a mechanical transfer case that shifts power to the rear wheels as needed. The HH uses separate electric motors for the rear wheels. This means that if those motors are used continuously, they will overheat and shut down until they cool. Thus they are suitable for most situations when one needs to activate the rear wheels, but not for continuous situations. From what I have read this seldom happens, and the key (as with any car) is to know the limitations, strengths, and weaknesses - every system has it's strong and weak points.

    If you want a hybrid SUV with a mechanical AWD, the Ford Escape is available, though it is not quite as large as the HH.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Yes! You are right, that is an important difference.

    So far, we have not had problems with it as the drive computer seems to knows when to use it and when not to use it.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "So far, we have not had problems with it as the drive computer seems to knows when to use it and when not to use it."

    Oh, I think the HH is fine for basic AWD uses. There is one forum member who uses it on a farm IIRC.

    I myself have the FEH AWD. I have the FEH because the HH has an I6 and the FEH has an I4, plus the expense of the HH :surprise: .

    I have AWD because that was the only one on the lot that had the exact options I wanted. I would have preferred the FWD for better mileage (FWD = 34/30, AWD = 29/27). I have 1500 miles on my FEH, and so far am averaging just under 30 MPG.
  • lynnkushnirlynnkushnir Member Posts: 15
    In HH you are not only getting vehicle safety control (VSC) which is partof Toyota's Star Safety System and in all their SUV's but you also get the benefit of VDIM. Besides the standard braking system, VDIM usesboth electric engines to stop the vehicle, normal braking pressure is not applied until HH is traveling at under 7 mph. That's why the brakes never need to be changed, how can anything wear out when they are not even used until the automoble is almost stopped. The HH's VDIM, together with the VSC and curtain side airbgs, etc. truly make Toyota's HH the safest SUV on the road.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Besides the standard braking system, VDIM usesboth electric engines to stop the vehicle, normal braking pressure is not applied until HH is traveling at under 7 mph. That's why the brakes never need to be changed, how can anything wear out when they are not even used until the automoble is almost stopped. The HH's VDIM, together with the VSC and curtain side airbgs, etc. truly make Toyota's HH the safest SUV on the road."

    I think you may have meant to say "safest HYBRID SUV" (many ICE-only SUVs have these features), but even there I don't think this is necessarily correct.

    These features (although not with these names) are on the 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid.

    The FEH has the airbags and the Ford RSC system.

    The eCVT uses deceleration via the transmission instead of brakes for normal braking. The 2009 model has a software controlled "braking" action that makes the brakes feel like "normal" brakes, but it does not affect the actual operation. And while speaking of "inclement weather" stopping, Ford holds the patents on hybrid systems being able to use ABS in the winter time. The regenerative braking is interrupted when ABS is needed. I'm not sure if this is one of the patents that Toyota cross-licensed from Ford.

    I think you will find that under "fast stop" conditions the HH will use the brakes in conjunction with (or perhaps rather than) the VDIM system.

    Also, I doubt that Toyota claims that the brakes never need to be replaced.

    IMHO, choosing between the HH and FEH is a matter of desired size (FEH is smaller), cargo space (HH is higher - goes with the larger size), desired MPG (FEH is higher), price (FEH is less expensive), AWD systems (the FEH has a more robust AWD), acceleration (HH has a V6, FEH has an I4), and the most important item - personal preference as to which vehicle drives the way YOU like. Also, I think that the HH has more available options.

    It is really a matter of personal choice and desires, as well as the fundamental difference between Ford and Toyota engineering - the vehicles drive differently.
  • sebemismnusasebemismnusa Member Posts: 23
    Does Toyota, the people who designed the Highlander Hybrid, or others offer tips on reasonable, safe, and legal methods to improve the gas mileage in Highlander Hybrids, methods that also do not void the warranty (or extended warranty)?

    What I have: 2006 Toyota Highlander Hybrid with front wheel drive (no EV mode to my knowledge); I purchased and plugged in a Scangauge II for additional information last year. I also realize there are many articles on improving driving habits to improve gas mileage, many of which I am doing and work quite well. Are there any tips that might apply to Highlander Hybrids or similar vehicles that may not apply to other vehicles?

    What else may I do? Are there any after market modifications that may help, for example a higher flow exhaust system? I have not found any catback systems for Highlanders. Would any catback system work or could this make the MPG worse? While I already have a K&N "oiled" cotton filter, I purchased this as I like to clean the air filter every other oil change. I will switch to synthetic oil during the next oil change (ex. maybe 0-30W or 5-30W).

    I am looking for what I consider "reasonable" methods and tips. I am aware of "hypermilers techniques to overinflate tires (sorry, I keep my tires consistently inflated to what is listed on the door ), consideration to closely tailgate large trucks (I prefer to see the side mirrors on large trucks so the driver can SEE my vehicle). I do drive slower, when possible. MPG is more important than average speed.

    A little knowledge about how the propulsion system works in Highlander Hybrids work may also be useful (ex. what could be the ideal throttle position setting and ideal engine RPMs for acclerating under various conditions). I am also watching the instanteous mileage display to try to determine this. I also need to watch for other traffic, bicyclists and pedistrians.
    Yes, riding my bicycle yields the best MPG :)
    End
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    VDIM is just a fancy marketing term to describe the "integration" of all the ABS associated systems, BA/EBD/VSC/etc.

    FEH/MMH does not yet have an equivalent system to VSC, only something called rollover protection.

    I fully expect I will be buying an MMH as soon as a VSC equivalent system becomes available. I will immediately convert the MMH to only RWD by removing a front halfshaft and applying a constant voltage to the rear drive clutch.

    Will probably have to modify the OAT sensor so the MMH will continue to use full regenerative braking during the wintertime. With RWD the safety hazards of front regenerative braking will not be present.
  • sebemismnusasebemismnusa Member Posts: 23
    As I nearly killed myself in a SUV rollover accident, and totaled my previous SUV, I was very concerned with VSC. A vehicle with VSC *might* have kept my SUV on the road. My accident was similar to the animated rollover videos at various web sites.
    On a Toyota 2006 Highlander Hybrid, I tested the VDIM/VSC many times in several snow covered, unplowed, large parking lots. This is easy for me to do during Minnesota winters.

    VDIM/VSC works great in the Toyota Highlander, especially in comparison to my previous SUV. My previous SUV had anti-lock brakes, but no VSC. I tried to spin out the Highlander many times, safely in snow covered parking lots. The VDIM kicked many times, including the beep-beep-beep traction control warning light. As I read, the steering wheel can be come increasingly difficult to turn. I believe this helps to prevent over steering.

    In my near fatal accident, I over steered. On a two lane road (straight, but had quickly became icy), I steered out of the other lane, over steering and going off the road (down a steep grade, rolling over and spinning around 180 degrees). With VDIM, I believe I would had remained on the road.

    In any situation, looking where you want to drive, rotating your head is preferred. This is in contrast to what I did, look through the front windshield that moved back and forth as the SUV skidded around.
    End
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    The VDIM does a bit more.

    VDIM is different than run-of-the-mill safety systems because it integrates all the safety subsystems and the engine into a whole and it tries to anticipate dangerous situation and proactively apply these systems in a coordinated manner. Other run-of-the-mill safety systems are not integrated, they do not work as a whole or coordinate their actions and they activate only when a dangerous event occurs.

    VDIM constantly senses and measures motions of the HH in x, y and z axis. It will detect a potentially dangerous situation and act preemptively to prevent a dangerous event from taking shape. It does not wait for that dangerous event to happen and then respond. It cannot overcome physics but for what it can do, it does it very well. I believe Honda/Acura, Lexus, Mercedes, BMW and Volvo offer something similar.

    I once tried to merge into a carpool lane with a sharp left and a simultaneous sharp stab at the throttle, the VDIM refused to do it. I now wait for a clear stretch, merge into the lane first and then accelerate when the steering was no longer at any severe turn-angle. It is a lot safer too.

    The VDIM also negotiates curves wonderfully along a familiar local hilly freeway. We discovered this by accident. We had it in cruise, got into a well known curve a bit fast, felt the car slowed itself and then picked up again exiting the curve; all before we could do anything except to steer. It felt precisely like what we would do but the VDIM took care of it. Of course, VDIM cannot overcome physics so I won't set cruise and race down HWY 1.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..VDIM does a bit more..."

    Well, no.

    VDIM is just a term newly adopted by Toyota. These systems, ABS/TC(TRAC)/BA/EBD/VSC/etc, have ALWAYS been integrated, out of pure necessaty, to prevent them from negatively interacting with each other. If you read all the theory and diagnostic procedures for VDIM and then go back a few years and read the same for the earlier system(s), then called the "Star Safety System, you will find, mostly, exacting functionality throughout.

    And VDIM, as good as it is, and it is REALLY good, still cannot predict the future and so it can only REACT after the fact. It would be ideal if VSC could sense that the "moment", lateral inertia, of the vehicle will exceed, "soon" exceed,the traction coefficient of the tire tread to the roadbed but in order to do that it must know the CURRENT frictional coefficient of the roadbed surface.

    So VSC can only REACT once traction, partially, say front or rear, is actually LOST.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..I tested the VDIM/VSC many times in several snow covered, unplowed, large parking lots..."

    "...I tried to spin out...."

    No, it is much more likely than otherwise that what you tested was VDIM's TC/TRAC "component".

    Even the RX AWD series is heavily front torque biased, 95/5, and so the vehicle is much more subject to understearing, "plowing", making it extremely difficult to "spin" at a low enough speed to be comfortable with the safety factor.

    My experiments ('01 AWD RX300) in this vein resulted, EVERY time, in TC/TRAC kicking in the instant I tried to accelerate quickly enough that I could then yank the stearing sideways and cause the rear end to break loose and come about.

    So the "beep-beep-beep" you heard was more likely an indication that VSC/TC was "in play".
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    So VSC can only REACT once traction, partially, say front or rear, is actually LOST.

    I hear what you are saying but our experience says otherwise. I have had VSC on various other types of vehicles, never thought they were useful but none of them behaved as the VDIM. Not in the Mercury, not in the Sienna, not in the Chevy and not in Honda and not in Ford.

    None of them ever stopped me from being able to change lane, none of them could handle a curve exactly as I had experienced. So we will continue to share our experience of VDIM being different than normal VSC.

    I guess we have to agree to disagree :).
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Straight from the horse's mouth:

    http://www.toyota.eu/06_Safety/03_understanding_active_safety/05_stability_contr- ol.aspx

    PLease note I do not work for Toyota, just trying to sort out the subtle but important differences of VSC vs. VDIM.

    Enjoy! ;)
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    The phrase, statement, in the linked document that gets my attention is that VDIM detects that the vehicle is experiencing "TOO MUCH YAW whereas the "OLD" VSC system waited for the "break" into actual overstearing or understearing.

    But then the statement continues.."too much yaw (rotation around the car's centre of gravity)"

    By this extended definition of "too much yaw" the only difference between VDIM and VSC becomes the addition of the variable stearing ratio coupling and its integration into the "mix".

    So, apparently, the VDIM system remains REACTIVE just as was/is VSC.

    I suspect the real difference is that the VDIM/VSC intervention is now much more noticeable by the driver due to the sudden change in stearing ratio, resistance to stearing in the "wrong" direction.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "FEH/MMH does not yet have an equivalent system to VSC, only something called rollover protection. "

    RSC, Rollover stability control. This steps in when there is risk of the SUV rolling over, which is the greatest risk for an SUV.

    I personally am not a fan of VSC; I prefer to manage my own turns. Of course, I'm a VERY careful driver, and my care increases as the temperature decreases.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Regardless of how careful we are, I am, there is always the unexpected event just around the corner. And then just how careful am I, are we, after a full day of driving, ~500 miles..??

    The PSM in my Porsche is the ideal system IMMHO in that it waits a few hundred milliseconds to give me time to react and if I react in the correct manner, say turn inside the skid, it remains inactive.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    With the link to Toyota, we can at least agree that Toyota VSC is different than Toyota VDIM. We can also at least agree now that VSC driving experience is different than VDIM driving experience.

    This is another link from Toyota that shows how VDIM does a bit more than VSC.
    http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/safety_presen/tech/33.html

    As for whether it is "proactive", I think we are actually saying the same thing but emphasizing different aspects. It is true that the VDIM must first detect the possibility of an event before taking action, so one can say it is reactive in that regard. It is also true that the VDIM can, within reason, detect an event and take corrective action even before a driver realizes something is amiss, so one can also say it is proactive in that regard. It is easier to emphasize the latter because we have experienced it.

    We were in a traffic jam crawling at about 30+ MPH and I simply turned the steering hard to left and pressed on the gas pedal hoping to dart-merge into a carpool lane, something I had done thousands of times in all other cars, the VDIM stopped me cold. The car would not accelerate, the steering became heavy and the turn wouldn't happen. There was 0%-risk of roll-over but the VDIM resisted the turn.

    If the car had turned and accelerated and then the VDIM kicked in, I would wholeheartedly agree it was reacting. In our case, the VDIM simply refused to do it. We have since learned to just turn only as much as needed and smoothly press down on the gas. The smooth movement does as much as a dart-merge but a lot safer.

    So in everyday driving activities, as far as a driver is concerned, the VDIM is relatively proactive. So much so that many drivers (Lexus drivers and Canadian Driver testers) call it a "nanny" or "big brother" system and ask for ways to turn it off! :)

    We decided to leave it on because as long as it makes my drive safe and comfy, I am happy.

    Cheers!
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    It begins to look as if I was wrong, TOTALLY wrong.

    Apparently I gave the Toyota engineers who designed these systems too much credit.

    I'm pretty sure the first instance of a form of VSC was on a european marque, MB or BMW, and those systems, ABS/TC/"VSC", were totally integrated from the get go.

    If I am reading the information in that last link correctly then Toyota has only recently realized that absent integration, FULL integration, these systems could/might interfer with each other in a negative way.

    I don't now know if this is still of importance but in my '01 AWD RX300 if I floor the accelerate while trying to make a really tight accelerating turn the engine goes "flat" and will not recover until I release and then reapply the accelerator a bit more slowly or lightly.

    And yes, these sensors can be used to detect an "out-of-whack" driving condition substantially sooner than the best and more experienced driver might using our "seat-of-the-pants" sensing capability.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Rather than turn off any functionality of VDIM I wonder if it might not be a better solution for the VDIM to have a "sub-mode" wherein the automatic intervention is delayed like Porsche does with PSM. On the track at Daytona a few years ago I left mine on but insofar as I could tell I was always quick enough with my own corrective response that it never activated.

    So, if a driver feels like "pushing the envelope" a bit go to the sub-mode, otherwise....
  • rdalemercerrdalemercer Member Posts: 1
    Good morning. I'm just wondering if anyone has read anything about the proposed changes to the 2009 model year Hybrid Highlander and could list them up?

    Thanks in advance....
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Who came out first with something similar to VDIM probably is unimportant. I will bet the Europeans are likely the first ones to do it. I know Porchse, BMW and Mercedes have had something similar for performance since mid-80's through early 90's. Toyota first offered VDIM in the Lexus line geared for performance as well. VDIM first appeared in the Toyota line via the '06 HH and Toyota's VDIM is for safety, not for performance.

    People research the '08 HH because it is a hybrid SUV with the potential to get excellent MPG ( better than my '06 HH ) so if someone wants to know what they are getting for $50K, it is fair to remind them of the VDIM in addition to the HSD. So in addition to saving gas, they are getting a new Toyota safety system previously only available in Lexus. Then it is up to that person to decide whether VDIM is worth the extras.

    For people researching VDIM ( as I once did ), and for new owners of HH, it is much more important to know what it is in practice, what can one expect driving with it, why is it different from Toyota VSC, what benefits does it offer, what problems does it have, how does it impact our driving experience either negatively or positively. Such info help people make intelligent decision.

    I have enjoyed learning from your posts so this is not to claim "Toyota is best". I am only loyal to a good product that meets my needs regardless of brand :). If GM comes out with something that best the HH tomorrow, it will have my undivided attention. I am also an engineer who works in mission critical systems so getting things right, whether we like them or not, is in my "genes", so to speak. Thus my interest in making sure the differences between Toyota VSC and Toyota VDIM are clearly stated. The rest is up to the readers.

    Cheers!
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Not sure if I made a mistake but a post disappeared probably because I provided links to a competing forum.

    For those researching VDIM and want to read other people's impression, please use the search-string "VDIM vs VSC" in Google. Look for Lexus club and AutoByTel test discussions.

    Canadian Driver also ran a test in 2006 using the '06 HH. They also provided their view of the VDIM. Popular Mechanics also did a test and provided a video clip of a '06 HH doing a slalom.

    The Canadian report reads "toyota highlander" but it is the Highlander hybrid because of the telltale air intake slot in the front bumper and the wheel design.

    Popular Mechanic's video clip ( the HH they used looked to have the squishy Integrity tires ):
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1829251.html

    Hope that helps.
  • sebemismnusasebemismnusa Member Posts: 23
    Regarding others' correct observations simply turned the steering hard . . . and pressed on the gas pedal . . . something one thousands of times in all other cars, the VDIM stopped me . . .car would not accelerate, the steering became heavy and the turn wouldn't happen . . . 0%-risk of roll-over but the VDIM resisted the turn . . . .

    perhaps Toyota dealers could inform their customers of the above, at least after the sale was made. The dealers could show Toyota Highlander customers the features of this Hybrid, for example how to drive for improved gas mileage in a hybrid, emergency handling procedures or how the VDIM works . . . features that differ from other vehicles.

    instead my dealer spent time trying to sell me an extended warranty (no, I found a lower price on at another Toyota dealer's web site), and additional rusting proofing (again, no) and other features I did not want - time spent to try to get additional $$ from me, but no time spent on how VDIM works. :( I figured out myself.

    I like the VDIM feature, too.
    End
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    "..the turn wouldn't happen...."

    What if there had been a "sudden" obstruction, deer/ELK, or even worse an oncoming car had veered into your lane...??

    No rollover but....SMACK...!!

    I have eyesight, the car doesn't, so it should FOLLOW MY instructions, ALWAYS.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    I totally totally and completely agree with you about Toyota's failure to teach or inform new owners. Not even some sort of driving club or on-line FAQ to help us out :(.

    They also did not bother telling us to use snow tires as it has been reported that climbing up icy slope can risk power shut-off. A poster here had to reverse up a slope to prevent VDIM from interfering because it shuts down all 4 wheels when all 4 spin on ice.

    I also was really displeased with the cheap, useless Goodyear Integrity tires. It was squishy, gave the car a top heavy wobbly feel. No fancy safety system can compensate for lousy tires. We had to take posters' advice and change tires.

    We also learned about the VDIM through our own experience.
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Yes! I have often wonder about this myself.

    VDIM will not intrude so obviously if we turn at either reasonable constant speed or to slow down or with only moderate acceleration. VDIM gets nasty when we turn hard and accelerate hard or if the speed is way too high.

    My wife and I have to learn by trial and error how much to turn and accelerate without incurring the "wrath" of VDIM. We did this in order to avoid the "SMACK" situation. Toyota really should do a much better job of informing and teaching owners.
  • monte8monte8 Member Posts: 75
    If you check the math, you will see that the tenths of a mile on distance do not make any significant change in the answer.
  • sebemismnusasebemismnusa Member Posts: 23
    With just the traction control part, the TC light would blink. I tested this, too, on going up icy driveways a few times and at stop signs/stop lights with ice. This was driving straight from a complete stop. I could hear one front tire spin, then shift to the other, and back on an ice covered driveway.

    I could only get the beep-beep-beep going when attempting to make donuts (spin around and around) or getting the yaw sensor "activated" .

    My HH is only front wheel drive. I could not get the rear end to break or get this car to spin. My speeds were 20 to 30 MPH. I have done this easily in other cars (1965 Comet, rear wheel drive) or just rear wheel drive pickup trucks. Maybe if I had some power to the rear wheels ? ? ?

    After the St. Paul winter carnival, in which they plow a lake for automobile ice races, I might try this again on the ice track . . .
    End
  • jldavisjldavis Member Posts: 8
    Hi there - I just had my first oil change, and the EZ Lube could not figure out how to get the alert to go away. We tried the maintenance screen (putting in miles/dates), and I also found something in the manual that said if you pressed the trip odomoter button for awhile it would clear the alert, but no luck.

    I noticed that your posting said you were shown how to do it, and would greatly appreciate it if you could let me know.

    Thanks!
  • newski3newski3 Member Posts: 42
    Here's how to reset it on my 2006 HH Limited:
    1. Turn your ignition key to the first position (aux?)
    2. Push the odometer select button until the Total Odometer mileage is showing (not A nor B but Total) and then release the button
    3. Turn the key back to the Off position
    4. Push and hold in the odometer button and then turn the key back to the aux position. After a few seconds, it will tell you that the oil change warning has been reset.
    (Note: I haven't done this for a couple of months so I'm going on memory as to the words, but the actions are correct. Also, the owner's manual tells how to reset it.)
    Good luck
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    cdtrap is correct in his explanation because he specifically noted the inclusion of the EPS into the VDIM.

    VDIM is not a 'predictor' in that it cannot 'see into the future' ....except that.....once an out-of-control situation is detected as cdtrap noted then the VDIM can calculate various risks in the x, y, z planes then it can react to minimze the risks of getting further out of control.

    The difference between the Star Safety System and VDIM is the complete integration of the EPS into the ABS-controlled functions ( ABS, BA, EBD, VSC, Trac, yaw sensors ).
  • zendtzendt Member Posts: 1
    I find that when I'm driving my HH, with the windows down, I frequently hear a slight grinding noise. It is constant and does not vary with speed. When I take my foot off the accelerator, the noise stops. The dealer's service dept say they only hear standard "hybrid" sounds. Does this anyone have any experience with this?
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Our '06 HH has more of a higher pitch "whirling" sound, almost like a jet engine but very soft. This happens whenever the battery pack kicks in at any speed. We do not hear anything resembling "grinding".

    Can you ask the dealers to drive you around and point out what they meant by "standard hybrid" sound?
  • monte8monte8 Member Posts: 75
    "What if there had been a "sudden" obstruction, deer/ELK, or even worse an oncoming car had veered into your lane...?? "

    The safest course is to not swerve for an animal in the road, just take the hit. If you avoid the animal, you may go off the road, hit a tree, wall, guard rail, hit an oncoming car, bicycle, etc. Safety experts have looked at this problem (deer, moose, etc. collisions) and determined that the best thing is just hit the brakes (if you can).
  • cdptrapcdptrap Member Posts: 485
    Adding to your good point...

    Swerve-and-accelerate seems like a counter-intuitive behavior when reacting to roadway obstacles. It seems 99% of the time, our natural response to avoiding an obstacle is to slow and swerve or swerve and slow. VDIM will work fine for these 99% events.

    Swerving and accelerating simultaneously definitely increases the risk of roll-over for a tall vehicle like the HH, so VDIM has its emphasis in the right place. I would rather take on a deer or a steer or a car than risk a roll-over when all the defensive designs (bags, beams, crumple zones, etc) become useless.

    We have encountered our share of road hazards from stubborn bulls (big nasty horns) to nasty pot holes and swerving at constant speed or swerving with foot on brakes work smoothly and securely in the HH. The VDIM-enhanced handling characteristics made it safe and easy.

    On the very rare occasion when we have to swerve and accelerate to pass, we have learned to swerve first and then press down on the gas smoothly and the VDIM does not intrude. This is a much safer practice anyway.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    When something dashes out in front of you, or suddenly starts coming your way, REACTION time is of the utmost importance, rather than first taking the time to analyze the situation.

    DON'T FREEZE, do something, ANYTHING.

    Then take the time to decide, realize, "that" was a rabbit, not a small child.

    And remember, keep in mind, that with ABS we now have the ability to brake SEVERELY and stear, maintain directional control.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter would like to talk to consumers who are in the market for a hybrid SUV but are having trouble finding one. Please respond to jwahl@edmunds.com with your daytime contact information along with the vehicle you are shopping for no later than Friday, June 20th.
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