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What if.... nothing was bad about it and it simply was the best truck on the market? Period. With a diesel in 12-18 months and a HD package along with it the NGT could appeal to every open-minded truck user.
The proof will be 2-3 yrs out when these first ones have been working and doing all the dirty tough jobs and other truck drivers have seen more and more of them at work. Success is not just this year or next year. This is the first vehicle of what may be the best truck over the next 15 years ( see Camry, Corolla, Tacoma ). Nothing will be proven this year or next because the trucks will be too new. But if the plants fill up quickly and Toyota sees that it will be accepted then the TX plant goes from 200K units a year to 500K units. At sometime in the next 15-20 years this will happen.
The Japanese are lost when it comes to pickups. They got just as much chance of dropping to a one shift operation that produces 120k trucks a year.
In 9 months GM is going to have a 6 speed in every truck, and start producing dual mode hybrids within the next 18 months. Also Toyota is going to have to prove they can build a better diesel then the Duramax, which is consistently ranked as the best large diesel engine in the world.
In 3-5 years we'll know.
The Japanese are lost when it comes to pickups. They got just as much chance of dropping to a one shift operation that produces 120k trucks a year.
In 9 months GM is going to have a 6 speed in every truck, and start producing dual mode hybrids within the next 18 months. Also Toyota is going to have to prove they can build a better diesel then the Duramax, which is consistently ranked as the best large diesel engine in the world.
Now here's an ironic couple of statements. Who is it exactly that makes the Duramax for GM? As you say, it is for now the best on the market although Cummins would disagree.
or like a shaloow bedded truck,thinner too.
the company i work for bought some recently switced from a f-150 where i had more room for my 6-3 frame to sit and the bed is about 3 inches shallower and abbout an inch thinner. only plus is an inch longer
Toyota's going to have a tough time getting "domestic truckers" to even cross shop the Tundra. For as good as everyone here says the old Tundra is not to many Domestic truck buyers even know it exists(figuratively). Getting consumers to change brands when there's nothing wrong with the one they have now is hard to do. It's pretty hard to get people out of Camrys even when you have a competitive car like the Saturn Aura.
the 'taco owner keeps telling himn the talk to the tundra owners, but he won't beacause he says they have too many problems.
Til now these have been the only choices C/F/D. The Titan while it has a big engine and big towing capacity it is only about as capable as a Tacoma or Frontier in carrying capacity. Infact with it's 1360 Max payload if it were to tow 9500 lbs then it could only carry a driver and maybe his lunch...no other passengers and nothing in the bed. This is the Titan's weak link.
Put 1100 lbs in the bed of the Titan and it cannot legally tow anything!!! This is where the NGT is going to shock the 'real truckers'. Then in the manner it does it.
1. Tundra
2. F-150
3. Silverado
4. Titan
5. Ram
Can't wait to see a Tundra in person.
For a business owner his liability may not cover him if he's significantly above the GVWR...there goes his business. This isn't backyard **** measuring at a barbeque. This is just keeping it legal and getting the most value for the buck.
If a business owner realizes that he has to send out two trucks to do the job that one can do that's literally burning up money and taking equipment from one job when it can be used on another.
None I assume ( j/k right/ ). It's the sheriff's deputies and the insurance adjusters/underwriters that'll decide all that.
In addition I've heard but cannot confirm that some states now are requiring any truck with a trailer must stop and go over the scales. Over the GVWR? ... then dump something on the side..after the ticket.
f250?
I don't get it. :confuse:
The new Tundra will get about 2100-2300 lbs of payload, almost as much as the Ram.
Annual Sales
Ford.... 900,000 units
GM...... 900,000
Dodge... 350,000
Toyota.. 120,000
Nissan.. 60,000
Because of ...
an old style, smallest engine, turmoil a the top and 50% of workers leaving Ford loses 20% of it's sales ( 10% GM / 10% Toyota ) - 180,000 units
Dodge which is in an incredible mess ( see Det Press ) with an old design loses 20% of it's sales ( 10% GM / 10% Toyota ). -70,000 units
Nissan with a capable but very limited vehicle ( two cabs, one engine, very limited payload ) lose 10% - 6,000 units
GM actually gains sales overall ( Lutz' view ) to 1.0-1.1 Million units. + 150,000 units
Toyota gains the rest of the 'defectors' as well as increasing it's deliveries to current Tundra owners ( + 20% ) + 130,000 units
It wouldn't be too hard to envision a jump to 200K+ units in 2008 ( 2007 is only a part year ).
However if gas jumps to $4.00/Gal all bets are off, anything could happen.
For years Dodge has made a living putting attractive sheet metal over unreliable under pinnings, and they still sell 350k a year. Dodge Ram owners are almost as fanatical about their rides as mustang owners. Toyota will have a tough time getting Ram owners to leave their trucks. Even when you drive by in your reliable Tundra and their stuck on the side of the road with a blown transmission.
Fords unveiling their new Super Duty at the NA auto show in January. The Americans pour money into updating their trucks every year. Their so afraid of losing market share in a "bread & Butter" segment.
Check out the long term road review of the Silverado over at Inside Line and you'll see how solid the product choices already are. When a long term review has 3k miles on it and the only complaint is the heater buttons, you can see how competitive the segment is.
It takes a backend loaded with dirt, stone, or an iron block to see the suspension sag on the average 1/2 ton. There's not a lot of things you can put in a truck bed that will max out payload capacity without hauling a trailer.
Here is that data that Toyota has found in truck buyers..
Dodge buyers are the least loyal. Nearly 65% of them would consider another vehicle.
GM buyers are the next likely to switch. 65% of current Tundra owners were GM owners previously.
Over 50% of Ford buyers would never consider anything other than a Ford. This was before the recent turmoil.
It only addresses buyers' sentiments.
Even when you drive by in your reliable Tundra and their stuck on the side of the road with a blown transmission.
Please, rather than continuing an intelligent exchange you're falling into the 'hopes of the detroiters' context. 'I sure hope this Tundra falls on it's face because if it's as good as the rumors then my [ fill-in-a-name ] is going to look pretty weak in comparison.' 'Please let the Tundra fall on it's face. Don't let them get this right too.'
Am I right?
80-90's small pickup
mid 90's 1st Gen Tacoma
2003 Tacoma takes over the midsized category ( with the Frontier )
mid 90's T100
MY 2000 1st Gen Tundra
MY 2007 Tundra blast onto the scene with class leading everything.
This has never been about one specific model or year. This is about 7-15 years from now. The NGT will be class leading and it'll be up to all the rest to react. If Ford and Dodge can't solve their internal problems they will just fall by the wayside.
Wanna bet on past performance that when Toyota decides to make a big investment it wont pay off? This is a given. It's only a matter of time.
Again you miss the point. This isn't about 2007 or even 2008. It's about 2012 thru 2015 and putting 500K to 700K Tundras on the road every year, just like the Camry and Corolla, and making a bundle of money in doing it. If it take 4 yrs then that's what it'll take. If it's 8 yrs well then it'll be 8 yrs.
It will get done one way or another. When a company invests this much money in a new plant, especially Toyota, then it will be a success.
Your numbers speak for themselves. 50% of all F-150 buyers wouldn't even consider buying another brand. 35% of Dodge & GM buyers wouldn't consider another brand. So by your numbers over 40% of all truck buyers are not going to consider another brand. Let alone a Japanese brand. In an earlier post you speculated Ford could lose 180k a year to Toyota because of an older model. How is that going to happen when 50% off all F-150 buyers wouldn't own another truck regardless of quality or capability? Lets see a poll of how many domestic truck owners would ever set foot in a Japanese dealership.
Either math isn't your strong suit or you didn't read all of the data.
I didn't say 180,000 Ford owners would move to Toyota. ( BTW this is only 20% of Ford's total sales. ) I estimated that Ford would lose 180,000 owners, probably because of cutbacks at the plants ( Norfolk ) and financial weakness, but that most of these lost sales would go to GM!!!!
You missed that part I guess.
Yes 50% won't consider anything but Ford but that means that 50% will look elsewhere. I guess you missed that point too.
Your numbers speak for themselves. 50% of all F-150 buyers wouldn't even consider buying another brand. 35% of Dodge & GM buyers wouldn't consider another brand. So by your numbers over 40% of all truck buyers are not going to consider another brand.
I will go along with this point that 40% of buyers ( F/GM/D ) won't consider any other brand. That seems reasonable. But it also says that 60% ( the majority of buyers ) will consider another brand. This seems to be what Toyota has found as well. Most buyers will consider another truck.
Now about 'Lets see a poll of how many domestic truck owners would ever set foot in a Japanese dealership. ' Toyota and all automakers track the trade-ins at each store since it's part of the transaction. Toyota has found in it's Tundra sales that 65% of new Tundra owners are.....were prior GM owners!!
Now what was it you were saying about who putting a foot in a Japanese dealership?
As you will read back above I will certainly derfer to Lutz if he thinks GM will go to 1.0+ Million vehicles I'll agree there too.
GM has 2 winners with the GMT900's. Your wish that the Tundra will fail is wishful thinking at best.
I just think you are under playing the pro American attitude of large truck & suv buyers. The day you look at the back window of a Tundra, and see Calvin pissing on a Nissan logo you'll know the Japanese have made a dent in the truck segment.
Sorry about the Language.
All in all- I think both trucks are (or will be) a success.
Quite possibly - large truck/large SUV buyers can be a closed minded group unwilling to even TRY anything else, convinced in their own mind that all media reviews supporting THEIR favorite brand are correct, while media reviews praising the competition (particularly foreign competition) is 'obviously' biased.
However, it was said 15 years ago that while the imports had a lock on the small car market, there was no way that they'd ever make serious inroads into the midsize family car market.....
Care to look at market share for Chevy midsize cars vs. either the Camry or Accord?
No one is saying that Toyota will have the MAJORITY of the truck market.....all that's being said is that their market share WILL grow. A lot of those buyers may well be Camry owners looking for a full-size truck to replace their F150 or Silverado.
IMHO, I don't think people who buy large trucks/SUV's with large motors w/ gobs of hp and torque really care about gas mileage.
"GM sells so few of the 6.0L vortecs that they don't even put a special badge on the truck."
You sure? I was reading Edmunds' review of the 07 Silverado and they state:
"Plastered on the side of our redesigned 2007 Chevrolet Silverado test truck is a bright red badge that reads "Vortec Max." It's the best name Chevrolet could come up with for the top-of-the-line 6.0-liter V8 under the hood, but we're not digging it."
Hey kdhspyder, just because I work for GM doesn't mean I don't like foreign cars. I would love to get my hands on a Lexus. Now thats a car I consider "Best in Class", and would look nice parked next to my Silverado.
I have a friend w/ a Cummins that would probably beg to differ
Happy motoring
To say that "nobody will buy the new Tundra's" is a overstatement.
Regards,
Tom
Toyota will not be able to sell 200,000 Tundras if they only have one or two on their lot to sell. Toyota dealers in Canada do not stock trucks to any great extent. Just have a look at a Ford or Chev dealer and you can take your pick of color and options. It is going to be an interesting few years to see how Toyota is going to fare in the "real" truck market.