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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4
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Other than wasting gas and creating additional pollution? <Just kidding> No I'm sure it can't hurt, just like changing the oil more frequently than the manufacturer's recommend interval. If doing things like that make you feel better then by all means go ahead. After all, they're pretty cheap insurance for longer engine life.
-Frank
Actually there is.
But it's still a good idea to be gentle until she's warm, true for any car.
In fact BMW pioneered a dynamic redline, where it starts out with a fuel cut off around 4000 rpm and gradually increases to the real redline after it's fully warmed up.
For cool down, generally you're idling right before you park. The last couple of blocks are in your neighborhood and you're likely going slowly. I wouldn't shut any car down after a hot lap. Cool down laps are, again, industry standard.
-juice
However as to warm up, in Australia Toyota and BMW (our two vehicles) advise their owners to follow the hand book warm up instructions, which is to start and drive away, and drive gently until warm. This warms up everything, most especially the gearbox. Idling up to temperature does not evenly warm up the engine either. But in the case of the turbo, the WRX hot up guy must have seen quite a few knocked around engines I guess, and believes that idle warm up is very good for prolonging the turbo bearings. If Subaru could open the waste gate until the engine was warm, this might do the same thing. It would be kind of fun too ...
Good to hear that Subaru keeps pumping the oil after one cools off ... is the oil for the turbo bearings the same oil as the engine uses, or is it a separate loop?
Concerning engine life and oil changes, with our toyota SUV I rang Toyota who said ring Mobil (I was investigating using Mobil 1). Mobil said that Mobile 1 would be perfect in my SUV at 6000 miles, and that it would be just about perfect at 12000 miles. They said if I used Mobil 1, a top synthetic oil available for some years in Aus., that it would be stupid to use it and change it at only 6000 miles. But my engine was an less stressed Toyota V6, not a turbo ...
I think if my wife goes Forester XT, I'll ask her to be very gentle before and after! And to use Mobil 1 I guess. She has a 40 minute traffic drive to and from her work, which is ideal miles as the engine gets warm and is not turned off for 40 odd minutes. But I'll plead with her not to gun it down our street EVER, as she has done that with the BMW when its not warm and she's late ... I ahte to think about what stress an Forester engine would be taking especially if she had a more open exhaust ...
Some say synthetic oil will outlive your oil filter. That's what limits the interval.
Long drives are best for your exhaust system, bet it never rusts.
-juice
elissa
My house is at the top of a one mile 10-12% grade..I let the engine run just a few seconds before shutting it down...I try to keep an eye on the engine temp gauge. I have found that propping the "bonnet" open after long periods of turbo drving helps the engine cool quicker.
The 4 Runner, while immense by comparison and much more money, come with a system to control descent speed. I just use 1st gear.
mark
Bottom line: The SUV X3 3.0 automatic really does handle very well, especially at the limit—and we did reach the limit all over the course.
Lots of fun! I'm sure juice will have many comments to pass on as well.
Bob
I'd bet FedEx Field's tarmac is in much better shape than Philadelphia Park's.
Ed
But yeah, had a great time today, and I'll share my comments and compare it to the F-XT in each of the following categories, more or less like Ed did a while back.
Outside: I arrived early so I had more than an hour to walk around and in the X3.
They had spec sheets with prices and I have to admit I cringed a little when I saw that metallic paint and cruise control are $475 options, each. That would be OK if the paint didn't have swirl marks all over it.
Nice beefy brakes, vented discs even in the rear. Unpainted black cladding on the lower portions, plus both bumpers, should be low maintenance. Interestingly Subaru does this only on its cheapest model, the X.
The D-pillar really eats up some visibility, Bob pointed out that the window is smaller than it looks, even. Forester has much, much better visiblity in all directions. A-pillar is thinner and the windows are bigger and more square.
Inside: nice headliner, same as Forester actually. Plastics are a mixed bag, many sound hollow and feel hard. The lid on the storage bin at the top of the dash felt particularly cheap, and the aluminum trim looked real but already showed some wear.
The rubber liners for the bin and cup holders should be removable, but aren't. Odd placing of the cup holders, too, and the passenger one is flimsy. The rear seats get none at all. Stubborn Germans, this is supposed to be a family car.
Models we drove had the wood trim, but it looks so fake I wouldn't believe you if you told me it's real. Looks like runny paint, brown and tan mixed.
Visibility was only so-so, big blind spot on the driver's side for me. The cargo area is not very long, but it is tall. Be ready to stack things, bring boxy items. To the right there's a little cooler that looks like it could hold a can or two, but the Forester has one in the spare tire that can hold a full 12 pack.
Seats are nice, but honestly I would like a little more side bolstering, which the Forester offers. Rear seats BMW wins, hands down. Much more room. But the front seats in the Forester actually offer more knee space.
Acceleration with the 3.0l was comparatively leisurely off the line, this is not a quick SUV by any stretch of the imagination. Drive an F-XT with a manual and this seems downright slow. Even the XT with the automatic is substantially quicker, though power delivery is a little less linear with the Subie's automatic.
Running acceleration, however, was more than adequate. You feel the mass more off the line, but once it gets going you never feel lacking. I'm not sure I could recommend the 2.5l, which we didn't get to drive. I can't imagine that would be much fun, though.
Braking seemed great, no fade was noticed even after repeated hot laps. We got 3 laps at a time, and 4 of us did that, so 12 laps with only quick driver changes and it took the punishment nicely. Aces for the brakes. I can't compare to the Forester XT because I haven't had the chance to test those in the same condition. The F-XT is a lot lighter so who knows.
Handling with the X3 was good, but you do get a lot of body roll. Dive and squat control is definitely superior to the Subaru, but the X3 feels a lot heavier and not nearly as tossable. They say you can teach and Elephant how to dance, but you're still dancing with an Elephant. The X3 needs to go on Atkins. Call in Colin Chapman, I think subtracting 500 lbs would make this a hoot.
I had high expectations for the steering, but left a little disappointed with the slow ratio and delayed turn-in. I did not like the 4 spoke wheel, but a 3 spoke wheel comes with the Sport Package.
Speaking of which, that might have lessened the body roll a bit, but I can imagine the ride would end up quite stiff. We went over a split in the pavement and you heard each tire pounding over it. The Sport package upgrades the 17" rims to 18"s, plus stiffer springs, and I doubt it would be happy on my commutes to Washington, DC. So the ride, even with the non-sport models, was a little stiff for family duties.
Kudos to BMW for hosting such an excellent event. We got classroom instruction, sort of a refresher course, then a demo with a pro driver and 3 laps with that same driver coaching us.
After some more instruction, we got another 3 laps. When we wrapped up, they gave us a quick review on ABS use, and then handed out a couple of awards for Most Improved and Best Performance, a neat little traffic cone.
I was more than a little surprised when they handed the Best Performance award to me, along with a Sirius logo'd hat. Hey, I'll take it! :-)
My review sounds critical but I actually really liked the X3. Perhaps I put it to a higher standard because I was aware of the much higher price. The BMW name, service, resale, are all appealing, but have no doubt, the Forester XT easily wins the bang-for-the-buck contest.
-juice
Wonder what the 2.5l would feel like. It might not be too bad with a manual tranny.
-juice
Bob
This is beyond a doubt the most fun, best-engineered vehicle I have ever owned. And that includes the BMW 2002 I drove for 19 years.
Let's not take anything away from a car that basically created the entire sports sedan segment.
In a lot of ways I have more respect for that 2002 than I do for the new Bimmers. It was light, simple, back-to-basics, and nothing was on it that didn't make it go faster.
-juice
-juice (founder and Crew Chief of the Subaru Crew)
Nice to know I have one whole fan. ;-)
-juice
That is absolutely right, of course. The basic engineering of the BMW 2002 was set in the mid-60s with the 1600 series.
But the holistic comparison for me is not completely specious. When I bought my bimmer, the folks in Bavaria were known for Spartan sports sedans. BMW drivers drove them aggressively. They waved and flashed their lights at each other. Like you said, this "created the entire sports sedan segment."
Then, about the time old hippies like me grew into yuppies and started making money, the whole BMW line shifted upscale toward the carriage trade. If you waved at another yuppie in a 3-Series, he just wondered who you were.
In a way I feel like I've gone back to my roots with the Subaru XT. I simply love to drive it!
p.s. I wish I still had the 2002, too. Nineteen years was not enough.
When I first got my '98 Forester, most Impreza owners back then understood we shared the 2.5l boxer. Nowadays some WRX owners don't even want to acknowledge that.
-juice
-juice
Steve, Host
For the Forester you can always pick up STi components and bigger sway bars.
-juice
-juice
Samantha
The Subaru does not handle like that, not even close. The luxury amenities on the Subie are also quite different than the X3.
Samantha
To see the difference between the 330i and the XT, you have to take it into a curve and mash the gas. Do the same with the RAV4. Driving it at 50 with a light foot tells you nothing about the car. Also if you ever have the chance take the X3 up to 130.
I'm not defending the X3 by any means, but after a 330i and subaru and having extensively test drove the X3, I can say the X3 handles like a sedan. No it doesn't have the punch of the XT, but the BMWs do not drive like Caddy's they are meant to be pushed very hard and maintain absolute composure. Take any BMW into the twisties and drive it hard it will not waiver.
Try that with a Caddy.
Samantha
The RAV6 should have decent acceleration, but again, no matter how fast in a straight line, it will not drive like the X3. I'm not saying BMWs are for everybody, but the X3s overall handling will be much better than both of these.
Having owned a BMW I'm sure you can appreciate the comments.
Before you say I drive like grandma - at the X3 Test Drive event, I won that little orange cone they hand out for "Best Performance". And my X3 didn't even have the Sport Package.
-juice
Len
What sold me (more than a year before I actually bought) was the BMW X3 Ultimate Driving Event during the summer of 2004. The firm organizing the event for BMW brought in as instructors people who race professionally. (No, they weren't NASCAR/Indy-level racers -- they supplement their income doing BMW testdrive events, after all -- but they were professional drivers nonetheless.
Each instructor was "paired" with 3 event participants. One person would drive, the instructor would ride shotgun, and the other two would sit in back, listening to the critique/advice.
The course was defined by cones set up in a stadium parking lot. It was perhaps 2 miles long, with a variety of driving challenges -- long and short straightaways, sweeping turns, S-turns, hairpin turns. Top speed, maybe circa 60/70 on the longest straight.
Everyone accelerated HARD, braked HARD, and cornered HARD. They went through a LOT of tires.
The instructor in my X3 (riding shotgun) moved the transmission to neutral when one of the other participants did something phenomenally stupid (shortly before completely blowing out the course completely), but otherwise it was very evident that the level of confidence that the X3's could be pushed very, very hard without a serious safety risk.
So when I was back in the market late this year, the X3 was at the top of my list.
The one vehicle I might have waited for is the Acura RDX (due out this year). But after truly awful service experiences with the two Acura dealers in my area, that brand knocked itself out of contention. (It would have been a different story if I were still in the state where I'd orginally bought my Acura.)
If you want the utility that a SAV/SUV offers, you're going to have to give up some gas mileage to get it. The larger shape will never be as efficient as a comparable station wagon.
But with family and dogs, I want every bit of extra space I can get in a SAV/SUV that's still a blast to drive.
(And I'm not regretting my decision to forgo the RDX, even though the photos out of Detroit just this week and the engine specs are impressive.)
VERY happy with my X3.
jrynn is describing the same event I attended, I still have the miniature orange cone to prove it.
-juice
BTW, where are you guys doing all this fun test track driving? I've never heard of these things.
Samantha
Right now I have a Mazda Navaho 4X4 which is on a truck chassis and has a lot of hauling room and can handle weight. I bought an armoire on eBay last year and schlepped it home in the back of my car!! Won't be doing that with any of these. Heh, heh, heh.
You know, I actually started a conversation with someone in a parking lot today because they were driving a Toyota Prius - and she was so proud of it - said it gets 42 MPG average! And, it does have a lot of cargo room with the fold-down seats. But, unfortunately, not enough for me, which is too bad, because I can pick up a certified one used at the Toyota lot.
Thanks guys, for all the tips,
Samantha
Len
Not necessarily, the BMW has a 5th gear overdrive so the engine revs much lower than the XT at highway speeds.
Excerpts from article:
ARLINGTON, VA — Only 6 of the seat/head restraint combinations in 44 current model SUVs are rated good for protection against whiplash injuries in rear-end crashes. None of the seat/head restraint designs in 15 pickup truck models earns a good rating. Overall 4 out of 5 SUV and pickup seat/head restraints recently evaluated by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety are rated marginal or poor for whiplash protection. This is the first time the Institute has tested SUV and pickup seats using a dummy that can measure forces on the neck during a simulated rear-end crash.
Only the seats in the Ford Freestyle, Honda Pilot, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Land Rover LR3, Subaru Forester, and Volvo XC90 models earn good overall ratings.
"Manufacturer advertising often emphasizes the rugged image of SUVs and pickups," says Institute president Adrian Lund. "However, the Institute's evaluations show seats and head restraints in many models wouldn't do a good job of protecting most people in a typical rear impact in everyday commuter traffic."
Seat/head restraints in the Volvo XC90 and Subaru Forester earn good overall ratings, in part because of their advanced designs that help keep the head and torso moving together in a crash. As an occupant's torso sinks into the Subaru seat during a rear crash, a mechanism in the seatback is designed to push the head restraint up and toward the back of the head.
Full article is here: http://www.highwaysafety.org/news/2006/pr010806.html
-Frank
Bob
-Frank
The hatch even closed.
-juice
Anyway, plenty of room on the sides but from ceiling to floor was a little snug (the fact that it was stuffed with probably 130 lbs of assorted junk didn't help). The hatch still closed, barely though. If it had been any more angled it wouldn't have shut.
Doug