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BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why do I always get hungry when I spend time on Edmunds?

    -juice
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    I'll be having steak dinners quite often in about 6 weeks. Maybe not $200 steak dinners but good enough for me. Heck, the per day cost of the cruise (lodging, meals, shows, etc) is half the price of that $200 steak dinner.

    DaveM
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Just got the March issue of C&D in the mail, and in the "5 Best Trucks" test, the XT won best "Small SUV" segment. It was up against the following:

    X3, CRV, Freelander, Outlander, Vue V6 & Rav4.

    Other segment winners:

    Pickup: F-150 Crew Cab
    Large SUV: Pilot
    Luxury SUV: Caddy SRX
     Van: Sienna

    Bob
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Not cheap, but thrifty.

    Cheap, thrifty, frugal, tightwad, skinflint, pennypincher, whatever. They all describe me, when it comes to buying for myself.

    $200 per person dinners? Not in this lifetime. I'm the antithesis of the conspicuous consumer.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    Yeah, my daughter is always calling me cheap!

    No $200 dinners for me either. A $20 steak dinner satisfies me. If I can get one for $10, that's even better! Maybe even a buy 1 get one free coupon to boot. :)

    DaveM
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    the per day cost of the cruise (lodging, meals, shows, etc) is half the price of that $200 steak dinner.

    You can go on long cruises with lodging, meals, shows, first-run movies, etc) much cheaper yet. All the steaks you'd ever want and then some. Do what I did. Join the Navy and volunteer for submarines.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sweet, Bob. Too bad it doesn't have the marketing value of Motor Trend's awards, but IMHO C&D's awards hold the most merit.

    I'm sure the X3 was close...hee hee.

    I had a rack of ribs last night and already I'm salivating like a carnivore.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Maybe even a buy 1 get one free coupon to boot.

    Wife and I use the 2-for-1 coupons in our Entertainment Guides every single week, and have been for years. Heckuva deal.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    You call that "steak" that they serve in the mess hall?

    My cheapest cruise ever was $89 total (not per day) for a 7 day cruise r/t New York to Bermuda. Haven't been able to top that one since.

    DaveM
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I'm sure the X3 was close...hee hee.

    Doesn't need to be, don't ya know? They've got those great ads with that great music. We're stuck with, what? Performance. No comparison.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    By the way, Jack doesn't speak for all of us. Like I said before, we are a diverse bunch.

    I am willing to pay more for something when I feel that I'm getting something of substance (i.e. not a label) for that price differential, no matter what the product.

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I'm big on substance. It's the frou-frou frills (heated steering wheels - egad!) that do nothing for me.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    By the way, Jack doesn't speak for all of us.

    Every other post (sometimes every post) is from Jack and you say he doesn't speak for us??? ;-)

    DaveM
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was trying to seperate myself from the cheap comment. :o)

    -juice
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    My cheapest cruise ever was $89 total (not per day) for a 7 day cruise r/t New York to Bermuda.

    Yeah, but how many blisters did you get from the oars?
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    For $89, oars were an option, so I passed up on them. The hands were pretty wrinked / waterlogged by the end of the cruise though.

    Actually, I got a call just before my original cruise sailing and they offered to give me my money back (except for port charges) and send me on another cruise on their dime. Needless to say, I took them up on their offer without hesitation.

    DaveM
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Check out state ferries, like the Alaska Marine Highway or Iceberg alley on the East Coast. With a ferry, you can take your X2 or FX 35 along for the ride!

    If anyone has any topical comments to make, jump right in.

    Steve, Host
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "If anyone has any topical comments to make, jump right in."

    Nah. why interrupt the Palm vs Outback, Or Royal Carnival vs Cheapo Cruises, or MT SUV of the year vs a RAV4.

    Obviously that's why you guys have more money than me, because you got the XT. (He slinks back to his Porsche GT3 to lament the sad state of his financial affairs)

    I honestly don't think there is more to say on this topic. The Subie seems to beat the X3 in one area, performance to 60. Everything else is subjective, except the styling and interior of the X3 is much nicer and worth paying extra money for. (Yes, I have it. Kids college education is paid up, gave thousands to charity, outright own house, time to play)
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    I would CERTAINLY pick the X3 over the SRX. Egads. That throws the entire award into doubt. SRX? SRX??!?!

    overtime
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    Everything else is subjective, except the styling and interior of the X3 is much nicer and worth paying extra money for.

    I'll grant you the interior's nicer. But "subjective" applies in spades to the styling. The X3's bodystyle would have to sell for less than the XT before I'd buy it.

    Also, the XT doesn't merely beat the X3 to 60, it humiliates it. And to 70, and 80, and 90, and...
  • njswamplandsnjswamplands Member Posts: 1,760
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I'll grant you the interior's nicer. But "subjective" applies in spades to the styling. The X3's bodystyle would have to sell for less than the XT before I'd buy it."

    Yes, and it would take more than straight line performance to get me to buy the XT. They'd have to give the car to me.

    You are missing the point about value, the same number of intangibles that separate the XT from the X3, separate the Sante FE from the XT. Someone has to decide if by paying more you get more or less. I see boat loads of Sante Fes on the road, more more than Subarus. I believe lots people see the value in this vehicle, even though some would diss it. People may even see more value in the Sante Fe than the XT, of which you could say it's faster, but more expensive. While the X3 in this version (maybe come an M?) will not outrun in a straight line an XT, it's worth every penny that it costs. That's the same reason I didn't buy a G35, yet I could have easily afforded it. I get cars so infrequently I don't need to penny pinch.

    And I'll have mine well done at the Christies Steak Haus. See you guys at MacDonalds.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Well, I'm not sure I agree with all their selections either, however I do agree with the XT choice as the small SUV winner.

    I'd pick the Nissan Titan Crew Cab over the the F-150 Super Crew. I'd also pick the Touareg V8 over the Caddy in the luxury SUV. I can live with the Sienna and Pilot—for now, as I think next year the winners will be different.

    Bob
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    I see boat loads of Sante Fes on the road, more more than Subarus.

    If so, this definitely must be a regional thing. Every single day I see at least a dozen Foresters, and probably that many Imprezas and WRXs, plus at least twice that many Legacies and Outbacks.

    I don't see even one Santa Fe per week. In fact, I haven't seen more than two or three since it was introduced.

    it would take more than straight line performance to get me to buy the XT. They'd have to give the car to me.

    Anyone reading that line would be led to conclude that the XT offers nothing but straight-line performance, and that in every other objective or subjective attribute, it stinks. If that's what you believe, nothing will change your mind until the first time a Forester passes your Bimmer in the twisties.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    I love this ad:

    image
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Man, that shut everyone up quick. I'll have to remember this the next time I have an argument with my wife... just show her an old Audi ad... makes perfect sense.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    Life is more about the twisties, not the straight line runs. Here are some numbers I thought were interesting, taken from the latest 2004 SUV comparo (did not include the XT because it is a wagon) and C&D tests and Subaru website.

    200ft skipad
    X3 .81g (on par w/FX45 which is just behind Cayenne Turbo)
    XT .75g

    60-0 mph (equally important, if not more so)
    X3 112ft (equal to Cayenne Turbo)
    XT 184ft (don't want to be emergency braking in this car)

    cargo volume w/ rear seats folded
    X3 71 cuft
    XT 62.7(almost 15% less room)

    We could go on for days listing stats, some would favor the XT, some would favor the X3. The unique character, though, that no other manufacturer has ever overcome about BMW is this: The sum is greater than the parts. Most cars you are lucky if the sum equals the parts. And that is what the "X" factor is about.
  • ballisticballistic Member Posts: 1,687
    60-0 mph (equally important, if not more so)
    X3 112ft (equal to Cayenne Turbo)
    XT 184ft (don't want to be emergency braking in this car)

    I'm not quite ready to believe such a huge difference in those two results. Specific page source/page citations? Offhand, I'd guess the XT 184' is for 70-0 rather than 60-0. In no way is the XT's braking that poor.

    200ft skipad
    X3 .81g (on par w/FX45 which is just behind Cayenne Turbo)
    XT .75g

    The Yokohama Geolander tires that come standard on the XT (and on all Foresters) are decent, but they attempt to strike a compromise between ordinary dry-pavement use and winter conditions. This they do, and quite well (IMO). However, the simple change to high-performance tires will raise the XT's skidpad limits appreciably, and at very modest outlay, considering.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    You win on the 70-0 ballistic.... LOL So take 30 feet credit if that's reasonable. That still leaves you at 154ft which is worse than even a Envoy XUV. And your still short of the X3 by 42feet which is 3 car lengths.
      On the tire issue, You could do the same thing for the X3. Your not really changing the proportion. I also haven't seen too many XT's with custom rims.
  • overtime1overtime1 Member Posts: 134
    Here are some interesting results of a comparo that was done. I'd put more faith in these results as conditions and parameters used in the tests are probably more consistent since all vehicles were tested at the same time:

    http://members.rogers.com/ajac/results.htm

    One thing to notice right away (besides the raw speed) is that even with tires that are admittedly not high performance and have a SMALL footprint that the XT brakes as fast (essentially) as the FX45. Who'd have thunk it?!?! :-) What happens when the tires are upgraded even a smidge? Hrmmmm.

    overtime
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mark- I don't have the 60-0 times handy but the Porsche Cayenne Turbo's 70-0 is 170 ft which beats the XT by 14 ft. So while I'm sure the X-3 stops faster, it doesn't stop that much faster.

    On the tire issue, all Jack was doing was trying to point out that to do an apples to apples skid pad comparison you'd have to do a plus-one on the XT so that both vehicles have 17” wheels. The 16" wheels on the XT are a good compromise size for everyday ride comfort, light off-roading, inclement weather driving and dry road handling. However, those who really care about another 5 hundredths of a G can easily upgrade to 17"ers.

    And I'll have mine well done at the Christies Steak Haus

    kdshapiro- OH MY GOSH!!! There's a reason why the good steak joints make you acknowledge that they can't be held responsible for the taste of a well done steak. You sure you don't really own a Santa Fe? ;-)

    -Frank P.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    Frank,

    Motor Trend rates the forester XS (same brake system) at 60-0 134 feet. Cay. T is rated at 112 for 60-0. I guess its not really safe to trust the exact numbers from any of them. The bottom line is that the X3 is out stopping any Subaru by almost 2 car lenghts at that speed.
    My point on the tires is that, if you continually upgrade the Subaru, the cost differential is rapidly disappearing.
    Add 1500 for new rims and tires, add money for a loaner car while the XT is in service, add maintenance that BMW gives you, add better sway bars, add better traction control, add a more intelligent full-time AWD system, add better shocks and springs, add a better air control system, add your micro air filters, add better headlights, add a roof rack system to add more storage space, add the time and energy it takes to add all those things and your better off driving the X3 off the BMW dealers lot. not even to mention, the X3 drives better.
    That's how I see it. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    911 GT3? No way, gimme the plain turbo with AWD. ;-)

    Viscous coupling AWD, by the way, just like Subaru.

    Subies sales are definitely regional, 7% market share in Vermont, 0.5% in Florida. Colorado, Alaska, Montana, and the whole NE are Subaru country.

    I'd love to see these compared directly, braking, handling, the works. C&D compard them, at least indirectly, and still chose the XT.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru dealers offer free loaner cars, I've already mentioned my last loaner was a Benz. We asked for and got a minivan the time before that. No problemo.

    How is BMW's AWD more intelligent, exactly? Remember, it's the Subie that is truly full-time, power to both axles all the time. The BMW is part-time reactive.

    Subaru also has the air filters you brag about, in fact even my 1998 model has that. Oops!

    Forester's cross bars come standard, and anything Yakima makes bolts on. If anything, Subaru has the advantage there. And it'll hold 150 lbs on the roof, how much will the Bimmer hold? 150 lbs is more than most.

    X3 may handle better on smooth roads, but C&D said the ride was punishing. You're trading off something for that, it doesn't come free.

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Mark- It all depends on what your priorities are. My XT already has a cabin air filter and I don't see a need for better traction control, shock, springs, headlights or a roof rack system. My dealer also gives free loaners and I don't expect to pay more than a few hundred dollars on maintenance. Also, I'll put the XT's AWD system up against the X-3's any day. So for me at least the cost differential is huge when I can get 95% of the capability for 50% of the price. Of course those are just my preferences and to each his own :-)

    -Frank P.
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Just wanted to verify that we’re comparing the XT to the 3.0i X-3 and the AWD FX35. After all, the 2.5i and the RWD FX are just poseurs and definitely aren’t in the same class :(o)

    -Frank P.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "How is BMW's AWD more intelligent, exactly? Remember, it's the Subie that is truly full-time, power to both axles all the time. The BMW is part-time reactive."

    No the BMW xdrive is infinitly variable full time. In addition only two wheels (any two) may be active at one time.
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    73 new messages since I left for work this morning (I'm not sure I should count all the steak ones in the total though, but the technical comparisons were interesting, albeit a bit uneven). At this rate, the entire internet should be overloaded by March 15.

    Dave M., I'm leaning towards the OBXT (assuming they make one with a MT). The S4 is sweet; and I've actually driven one. Yes the dogs would ride in style, but there's no room for a TV!

    Zman
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    Unfortunately, my local Subaru dealer does not give loaner cars. Just like the local BMW dealers dont move much off sticker.
    BMW system is a full time AWD, not part-time reactive. It is biased roughly 60%rear 40%front under normal conditions. Power to both axles. The X3 controls the percentage based on road condition, gear, current engine torque, steering wheel angle, and yaw rate. These are items the XT is not monitoring. The X3 can also fully lock or disengage the axles from each other. The AWD combines with the Traction control systems to individually brake wheels as necessary. It also has the ability to measure when a trailer you are towing is out of control and breaks the car to correct that.
    As far as air filter, the BMW uses a micro air filter and detects when the polluntants are too high and turns on the recirculation automatically. this means you never smell bad industrial odors in the manufacturing area of town. It also turns off the recirc. when the outside air is clean enough. If you have allergies that is a great bonus.
    The X3 has larger interior storage by almost 15%, roof load capacity is 165 lbs and it can tow 3500 lbs. The XT is only a class one rated towing capacity. I think thats 2000 lbs.
    The X3 ride is great. Most pre-production cars that went out had the sport package on them. That is a firmer ride and something I would not choose on this vehicle.
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    Got the lean toward the OB XT, but you didn't side for the $200 or $10 steak dinner. How about the $89 or $5000 cruise (or the free ballistic style one)?

    DaveM
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    BMW system is a full time AWD, not part-time reactive. It is biased roughly 60%rear 40%front under normal conditions. Power to both axles

    Not for MY '04. It's been changed to 100% RWD, and shifts power forward as needed.

    Bob
  • zmanzman Member Posts: 200
    $10.

    And I could see a Subie Crew cruise.

    Zman
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "Not for MY '04. It's been changed to 100% RWD, and shifts power forward as needed"

    It only goes into RWD mode about 112. Other times the system performs as Mark detailed above. However, the system is infinitly variable as far as power to the axles and to the wheels.

    Like the FX it starts out a 0mph as a split between the front and rear axles and then works as described above. In addition, the system if slip is detected the xdrive will attempt to handle it, and if it can't fall-back to the DSC.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    what the BMW dealer told me. He said 100% RWD, and shifts power forward as needed. He said the the system had been changed for '04. On '03 X5s, it was 60/40 front to rear, but not any more.

    Bob
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    my comments are based on that and info on the website.
  • mark_lpmark_lp Member Posts: 28
    The AWD system used before 04 was locked in how power was distributed. In 04, the x3 and x5 went to the Xdrive system. I don't know how to post the website, but Autoweek Dec 8 2003 interview with X3 product manager details how the system works. It is NOT 100% rwd. Your dealer is not accurate.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that with the revised X-Drive, there is never any time in which all 4-wheels receive at least some power? That there is never a driving situation in which the car ever be 100% RWD, or 100% FWD?

    Bob
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "That there is never a driving situation in which the car ever be 100% RWD, or 100% FWD?"

    If the two rear wheels have no traction, it will be 100% FWD. At speeds above 112 (where they got this number I dunno), it's 100% RWD.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    rsholland "Subaru Crew - Events" Jan 30, 2004 9:27am
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