BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

zman · March 2004

The visibilty from the driver's seat in the 04 Forester is about as good as it gets. As far as I'm concerned, visibility may be one of the most underrated feature of any car.

Zman

ateixeira · March 2004

It's true, it takes me a while to adjust to any other car. Even my Miata with the top up.

-juice

mamgt · March 2004

Perhaps it's time to reconsider the Pacer. Nothing beats that car for visibility. :-)

kdshapiro · March 2004

"for some it is more important to "LOOK GOOD" than to "SEE WELL"!!!"

For me it is, but oregonboy, I'll bet you're not driving a Hyundai. See great out of those cars and they do a great job of getting from point a to b for $18K less than the Subie.

zman · March 2004

I saw a lot of Nissan Muranos and several FX 35s on a recent long highway trip. I have a couple of questions: The Muranos look small (except the tires). Are they (the interior, that is)? The FX seems a bit larger. As, for visibility, can you really see out of them? Finally, who buys them? I haven't heard much from their owners on this board.

Zman

njswamplands · March 2004

and used the saved money to get broadband

p0926 · March 2004

I'll bet you're not driving a Hyundai. See great out of those cars and they do a great job of getting from point a to b for $18K less than the Subie.

Huh?!?! The Santa Fe, which offers comparable utility, may be $18k less than a loaded X3 but it's only a few hundred less than the FXT.

-Frank P.

petewat3 · March 2004

"The Muranos look small (except the tires). Are they (the interior, that is)? The FX seems a bit larger. As, for visibility, can you really see out of them?"

the Murano is smaller inside & out. Two completely different platforms as well. The Murano is built on the Altima platform and the FX is on the "FM" platform which is the same as the Z and G35. And yes you can see out of them. I've had one for 8 1/2 mos & have no problem at all with visibility.

jrock65 · March 2004

"the Murano is smaller inside & out."

Actually, the Murano is larger inside than the FX in every dimension: combined legroom, cargo room, shoulder room, hip room.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/nvc/edmunds/VehicleComparison;jsessio- nid=AYOpjLGqauaZ37qcIXgNFWJDALX582BEat7SmKL2iBCPDjAavB1c!-2106918- 368?styleid=100366707&styleid=100330751&refid=&maxveh- icles=5&op=3&tab=specs

njswamplands · March 2004

jmg35 · March 2004

Mr.Zman, Last January I purchased an FX35 for my wife. I get to drive it whenever we go out together. Visibility is not a problem for me nor for her. The mirrors work well when changing lanes and when reversing I've never had an issue (nor has she). We have the rear view camera and most of the time I forget to use it.
As a side note we LOVE the FX35 and are extremely satisfied with the entire package.

ateixeira · March 2004

Hyundai - not really, the Santa Fe's blind spots are a lot worse than the Forester's. And they no longer offer a small wagon, so you're outta luck there. Even the Tucson has a very wide D-pillar.

On the other hand, the 3.5l V6 option in the Sante Fe means it can probably keep up with the BMW X3 2.5l, but not the quicker SUVs in this thread.

By the way, that's getting a bit old. Sure, even a bicycle will do, but that's not the point, we're comparing sporty SUVs. That's something Hyundai just does not build.

For 2005, looks like the Forester XT will offer the Premium Package (huge moonroof) with the manual tranny. It's also getting the 3 spoke steering wheel from the WRX STi, improved climate control, and a better cruise stalk.

-juice

rsholland · March 2004

It's also getting the 3 spoke steering wheel from the WRX STi

It's an all-new MOMO(?) 3-spoke design. The airbag area is a large triangle. It looks very good.

Bob

zman · March 2004

Juice- Is that the whole premium package for the F-XT in the MT or just a moonroof? What about the X/XS? BTW, is this info posted somewhere?

Zman

petew4 · March 2004

I stand corrected on the inside space Murano vs. FX. However, the FX does have more space in front leg room and front head room.

njswamplands · March 2004

vsroman · March 2004

maybe he is standing

splurger · March 2004

Background:
I've driven my 1990 325 from new and have just loved its driveability and reliability. Now its a little long in the tooth and a little small, so sadly...

The Forester L I bought my (now ex) wife was a pleasure to drive, almost everything I would have needed, but I want the sunroof and blue (perhaps you read my haiku?).

I had such high hopes for the X3 (sunroofs in blue!) but on my test drive was really disappointed. It was heavy, and twitchy and no smile came to my lips:o(

Question:
Now I'm having 2nd thoughts: is it possible that the X3 was set up incorrectly: wrong tire pressures / undocumented sports package, do I have to adapt my driving style to a performance car that isn't long in the tooth? I'll freely admit that I would prefer the X3 and would happily pay the extra 10k, but only if I can puzzle the mystery of that ride. Thoughts please.

rsholland · March 2004

will now be available with a 5-speed manual. In '04 if you wanted a Forester turbo with a moonroof, you had to buy the automatic. Not so for '05.

Bob

zman · March 2004

Juice made the same observation re: XT-PP in the manual transmission. I assume that means both leather and the moonroof. Does it hold for the XS too? And when do you think it'll be available--after the new Legacies and Outbacks arrive in June? By the way, what's the source?

Zman

rsholland · March 2004

My guess is they will arrive in May or June.

Bob

ateixeira · March 2004

XT 5 speed gets the whole premium package, yes. More info on the Subaru Crew - Future Models thread.

An ex-dealer employee showed me a list of new models, I judged it as very reliable. He had no reason to lie - he was trying to sell me a CPO Saab 9-5 wagon and the news makes me even more likely to stick with Subaru.

splurger: heavy and twitchy is no fun. Go back and specifically request a different suspension set up. Take a tire gauge with you, the whole nine yards.

If you're thrilled with your Bimmer give the X3 a fair shot. Then if you still pick something else you'll have absolutely no regrets.

Good luck.

-juice

scotth6 · April 2004

Fact- March was the best month ever recorded for
BMW sales, one report in the Wall Street journal said up 5.6% and USA Today said 9%. Feb sales were up as well.
You people that don't like the looks of BMW are obviously in a minority, a recent article I read said the Z4 was on pace to outsell the 350 Z and the new 5 series is outselling the old. This is all in spite of the effect of the euro which is killing BMW and all European manufactures. So go ahead Subaru owners what lame excuse will you come up with now for BMW continuing to kick butt, I'm sure it will be another total opinion packed answer not based on any reality as usual. And by the way, you can call the Forester an SUV but it looks like a station wagon that got stuck in the 70'S. If I want a station wagon I'll buy a station wagon. At least call it what it is, when I buy SUV's I want them to look like SUV's or SAV's in BMW's case.

scotth6 · April 2004

If this brand is so hot and the cars are as great as we are led to believe on this website than why are the sales flat. March 2004 17,606 verses March 2003 17,614. I remember the comments at the end of January when BMW had one down month that several of you and you know who you are said BMW was dropping fast and they had lost it. Using the logic from that discussion then Subaru must have peaked, I see a trend here. It must be the looks of the Subaru designers (thats what was said of Bangel). Hey, I'm just using your logic so you can see how crazy it sounds to use all opinion with no facts and to base judgement on one months sales. And Oh by the way, X5 sales were 2404 in March and X3 sales were 2551 units. Please don't tell me BMW sales were up because of Mini because Mini sales were only up 36 units verses March 2003.
Just because the Forester XT is fast and cheap doesn't make it the best sport utility. If fast and cheap were that important I guess the Camaro would still be for sale.

ballistic · April 2004

designman · April 2004

"and you know who you are"

That's funny.

Scotth6 You forgot to mention that BMW Brand sales are down 8% for the first quarter compared to last year a pretty bad figure considering the bold new direction and this new era of discounting which is unprecedented considering BMW's past.

The BMW Brand sales is an indicator that points to the new designs. This number should be up and BMW knows it. This is why they are responding with the makeover of the 7 and the dubious Bangle "promotion".

kdshapiro · April 2004

"Scotth6 You forgot to mention that BMW Brand sales are down 8%"

Yes they were down in January due to factory closings and re-tooling in January. I will acknowledge the sale of a $70K car to a luxury buyer is different than the sale of a $30-$35K car to a near luxury buyer, but I happen to like to new designs inside and out.

corkfish · April 2004

"Just because the Forester XT is fast and cheap doesn't make it the best sport utility"

A lot of people disagree, including Car and Driver who named it the best small SUV of the year. And of course, safety is nice too, Forester was named by the insurance institute as the safest SUV they'd ever tested.

ateixeira · April 2004

why are the sales flat

Because the new Legacy and Outback are due next month and those are their volume sellers.

You're just looking at one month that supports your (weakest yet) argument.

-juice

bgsintth · April 2004

I still think that the OBXT will prove to be a more direct competitor than the FXT. As SOA releases more details on the OBXT, and 3.0 for that matter, the better it looks. I'm already leaning more toward the OBXT, sight unseen, but will wait until its out before deciding between the two.

Glad to hear that folks are enjoying their X3s, and that there have been very little in the way of complaints. I was very impressed with it after my test drives, just hoping for a little more oomph from my next ride.

ateixeira · April 2004

The 2005 Outback is more similar to the Volvo XC70 and Audi allroad quattro 2.7T. They all have turbo engines.

I've driven the Volvo XC70, and compared to the Forester XT there is a lot more lag and the tranny is slower to shift. The auto Forester is quicker but the 5 speed manual Forester absolutely blows the XC70 away, no contest.

Given the OB XT will have more power, more boost, I fully expect it will show the Volvo and Audi its taillights. Even in the twisties.

I think we'll see sub 6 second 0-60 times, about 7 seconds with automatic.

The Outback suspension will probably be dialed in for more comfort than the X3 or FX, but the Legacy GT (also available with a turbo) should even have a better ride/handling balance than the heavier SUVs.

-juice

bgsintth · April 2004

Good Points, but the main reason I think the OBXT is more comparable is interior space. I could never consider the FXT because it has very limited legroom in the rear seat, which is why I'm looking to replace my WRX wagon. The X3 has a lot of room in the rear seat, significantly more that the FXT. Agreed that I have special needs.

Both the Audi and the Volvo are way out of my price range. I believe the 4.2 Allroad is now in the $50K's? Though I do think the OBXT will match-up very well in terms of room, comfort, and performance.

Oh, and I have not ruled out a GT limited wagon, though I'm waiting to see if it is somehow possible to get leather w/out a sunroof.

pon1 · April 2004

No question the OBXT will steal sales from the FXT if the prices are close, which is maybe one reason why we in Canada will only be getting the OBXT in Limited form for 05. OBXT will offer similar performance, upscale packaging, maybe a bit less fun, a bit more grown up.

More importantly for Subaru, they will also steal sales from Volvo, VW and Audi and the car based mid range and lux SUV world with both the OBXT and new revised 3.0R. Dont think the outgoing model was quite in that ballpark.

I am cross shopping the MT FXT with the 3.0R auto, as in Canada the latter is going to be the "base" model for those wanting a bit more than the N/A 4 cyl 2.5i. Once we get to drive the cars should be easy decision because they are going to be very different (I have never driven the current H6). I'd say it is tougher in the US where a loaded FXT and base OBXT will be much closer in price.

Getting further off topic, but wonder how many folks will be torn between the OB 3.0R and OBXT??

ateixeira · April 2004

Nope - Limited package gives you both leather and a moonroof.

Have you seen the moonroof, though? It's massive, and now it's no longer split like it used to be. The front tilts up, the rear open all the way, leaving a gaping hole.

Headroom on all Legacys is much better for 2005. Ramana Lageman, the US SCCA Rally driver for Subaru, is 6'4" and had room to spare over his head in a moonroof-equipped sedan. I'm 6" and even in the rear of that sedan I had a few inches to spare.

If you don't want the moonroof for other reasons, what about aftermarket leather? Katskins or similar.

The H6 is about luxury - it's quiet and smooth. At idle my wife didn't realize it was on and reached for the ignition. It's geared very tall for relaxed, efficient cruising.

The turbo is geared short and will blow the doors off of anything in its class. It's not as quiet and not nearly as fuel efficient as the H6. I also think its character will be substantially different - all performance.

Drive both and you'll have a clear preference.

-juice

scotth6 · April 2004

Readers choice Best Small SUV in the May issue of Automobile Magazine was not a Subaru it was the BMW X3. No Subaru named in all 14 catagories, Yawn. Best Mid Size was the VW Touareg.
BMW sales are trending up through Feb and increasing through March. The ir was little or no 5 Series available in Jan and the X3 was not available. You Subaru guys can't stand it can you, just go ahead and admit that that the X3 is a success as well as the Z4 and even the new 5 Series. Yes, the 7 Series has a problem with electronics and a trunk but the looks are being changed for 2005. BMW says their brand sales will definitely be up for 2004 and I believe them a lot more than a couple of Subaru owners.
And quit calling your station wagon an SUV. Probably the number one reason for buying a SUV is a high seating position and your station wagon does not have it.

lark6 · April 2004

clpurnell · April 2004

Ok I went to the houston auto show and sat in the Subie to see what the fuss was about. I swore off this board about 700 posts ago but had to give my .02 now.

The subie is not in the same class as the other vehicles here. First of all it is small and very uncomfortable. All you subie nuts say how much more utilty and visibility it has than an FX but what good is that if I don't fit.

Second the interior and leather are nice for what it is and that is a 20k vehicle.

Finally you know how many people were looking at the FXT NONE compare that to lines looking at the FX and X3. Yeah the subie is fast but so is the neon srt-4 don't mean you should compare it to a m3 or g35.

p0926 · April 2004

Which is kind of ironic when you consider who's driving the X3. Oh wait, there's a psychological term for that. Something to do with the male psychoses... Okay I'll behave ;-)

Kudos to BMW for doing well with the reader's choice awards but personally I'd rather own a vehicle voted best by knowledgeable car reviewers (C&D and CR) than be chosen by the slave-to-fashion brand-conscious masses. But honestly, if a vehicle truly suits your needs, does it really matter if it wins any awards?

And of course the FXT is really just a tall station wagon, as are the X3 and FX. All three are built on car platforms and none have a low-range transmission, both common litmus tests for being a real "SUV".

-Frank P.

ballistic · April 2004

Do you have to work really hard at being such a bore, or does it come naturally?

tidester · April 2004

Let's play nice and stick to the topic - which is not each other! :-)

tidester, host

lark6 · April 2004

tidester, I am playing nice. It would appear that something or someone has touched a nerve here.

Frank P. points out correctly that all three vehicles in this comparison are car-based vehicles. Whether you call them cars, tall wagons, SUVs, or hedgehogs isn't relevant. What is relevant is whether the vehicles in question meet the owners' needs. In this case those needs may not all carry the same weight.

I must admit I seldom post here but that's because I'm still waiting to read about someone testing these vehicles back-to-back. I suppose I should do that myself.

Ed

subewannabe · April 2004

Gives me another idea for a new vanity plate, Ed. My curent choices are "FUBARU", "WASH ME" and now "SONIC".....

lark6 · April 2004

Well, maybe "SUBSONIC" (if your state allows 8 characters, which NC does IIRC) would be more accurate. You get the Subaru reference plus acknowledge that the XT doesn't quite break the sound barrier.

Ed

corkfish · April 2004

How did Automobile magazine name the BMW the best small SUV when they never tested the Forester XT? I have to laugh when I see friends who make nowhere near what I do driving premium brands. I've found that it's quite satisfying smoking $40,000 cars in my $20,000 station wagon.

atlgaxt · April 2004

and thinks it is too small, you better lay off the biscuits!

corkfish · April 2004

Not sure if I can post links, but thought this license plate holder was clever. You have to enlarge it.

http://www.rallydecals.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4- 2

mamgt · April 2004

"I have to laugh when I see friends who make nowhere near what I do driving premium brands. I've found that it's quite satisfying smoking $40,000 cars in my $20,000 station wagon."

Some people don't necessarily drive premium brands to "smoke" other cars but because they prefer a more refined driving experence. Speed alone does not equate to a great driving experience.

atlgaxt · April 2004

Subaru Forester XT - Its not just speed:

Good cargo room and passenger capacity in a tidy package with excellent visibility.

Tops in class safety.

Better than average reliability (according to sources such as Consumer Reports) and an expectation of excellent durability, based upon the % of ten year old Subaru's still on the road.

Attractive interior, with excellent features (In dash cd changer, auto climate control, heated seats, big sunroof available, etc. etc.)

Good balance between ride and handling (vs. the X3 which has better handling at the expense of ride).

While there are not a lot of fancy gadgets, it has a capable AWD system with good ground clearance (yet low center of gravity) and a LSD.

Plus excellent acceleration and a top ten rated engine by Ward's Autoworld (the BMW inline six is on that list also).

Winner of Car and Driver and Consumer Reports best Small SUV.

All at a good price.

There are a lot of good, logical reasons to buy a Forester. All the reasons to pay $10k to $15k more for the BMW end up being touchy-feely and based upon emotional reasons such as status (but ummm... the BMW just has to be better. I paid so much more for it as compared to a Subaru)

BTW, when I went to the auto show, I was disappointed in the interior of the X3. Looked cheap and plasticky for such an expensive vehicle.

ateixeira · April 2004

Oh yeah, I see soooo many X3s off road. All the time. Right.

Thanks for the comic relief, though.

-juice

mamgt · April 2004

"There are a lot of good, logical reasons to buy a Forester. All the reasons to pay $10k to $15k more for the BMW end up being touchy-feely and based upon emotional reasons such as status."

No one needs to convince me that the Forester is a decent car. I like the Forester. Ive owned one for the past 4 years and it has served us well....even though it needed transmission work after 10,000 miles (under warranty) and a new clutch at 41,000 miles (my friend had one replaced at 60,000).
I did take the Forester XT out for a test drive. It was just as noisy as my Forester and though it had more pick-up, it seemed to have a delayed pick-up compared to the X3 w/step. Yes, there are many "good, logical" reasons to buy a Forester. But if you think the only reason to buy an X3 is because of status, you probably havent driven one. The X3 has a more quite ride, superior handling (not at the expense of ride if you have the right tire pressure!), fantastic braking system, great AWD system, great safety features like front and rear head protection system, and free maintenance through 50,000 miles. The overall driving experience of the X3 (including giant sun roof and superb power adjustable seats with memory), is just in a different league, plain and simple. So yes, the X3 is more expensive, but in my opinion worth every penny.

BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester XT vs Infiniti FX 35 vs Toyota RAV4

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