Tundra or a Dodge Ram

jarodc · January 2000

I am planning on purchasing a new truck within the
next month. I have been looking at the Tundras and
dodges mainly. Don't care much for Ford or
Chevy's models. I am fairly confident in Toyotas
quality, dodge seems to have improved theirs. I
have read several of the posts, but I am justing
looking for some more info about the trucks from
current/past owners.

Thanks for info

Jarod

Lohengrin · January 2000

I've got a 99 Ram 1500 4x4. I absolutely love it.
Almost 21K on the odo and not one problem. I don't have any beaf with Toyota trucks and I'm not going to feed you the line about Tundra's not being real trucks. From my prespective, here's what I think the Dodge's advantages are (assuming you're looking at the Ram 1500 and not the heavier models):

1. Cab design: Dodge erogomics are impeccible. The highlight of the interior is the huge center console The cab is much larger than the Tunrda's. In my reg. cab, I can sit three across the bench in perfect comfort and have sat four in a pinch. I'm not sure you could that in a Tundra. Also lots of headroom, which was really important to me.
2. Proven Engines: Dodge's engines are the oldest designs on the market. On the one hand, they don't have the high-tech gee-whiz of Toyota's 4.7L V8. But on the other, the 318 and 360 V8's have been reliable and proven truck engines for a long, long time. From what I've read, the Toyota is higher-revving and is better for cruising around, but the Dodges have more low-end torque because of their greater displacement and will be better for towing or hauling. Another possible advantage of the Dodge V8's is that you can get them with a stick shifter, if you like. Tundra's V8 only comes with an auto.
3. Solid Front Axle: Ram 4x4's are the only 1/2 ton trucks that still have solid front axles. I prefer the solid axle because it provides more suspension travel for off-roading and is generally more sturdy than IFS setups. Also, I've heard the solid axles are easier to install lifts on, if you're thinking of that.
4. Price: The Ram starts out with a lower base price than the Tundra, plus it has all kinds of incentives that Tundra doesn't have. Not to mention that Tundra is still a hot item and dealers aren't going to be likely to give you a good deal. I got my Ram for invoice with no hassle. Current model Ram's also hold their value exceedingly well; better than any other full size truck the last time I checked.
5. Selection: Tundra comes in two models-ext. cab with a short bed or a reg. cab with a long bed. With the Ram you can get whatever combination of cabs and beds you want, including whether you want suicide doors on your ext. cab or not.

moparmad · January 2000

I can report no problems with my 96 Dodge Ram after 52,000 miles.One other area to consider before you buy that many people don't think about is insurance cost.Be sure and check with the insurance company before you buy,they may help you make up your mind if there is a big discrepancy in cost.
Consider an extended service contract with either truck.Don't assume there is any difference in reliability of the trucks because the Tundra is a Toyota.I don't feel there is anything to the Toyota super reliability myth,but regardless of your beliefs just be aware that the Tundra is a new design and therefore untested over time.
That being said I personally believe the Tundra will be as reliable as any truck,no truck manufacturer comes to market without extensive research.So it boils down to,which one do you like the best.

eagleeye1 · January 2000

I suggest you get a hold of a copy of Consumers Magazine (Nov 99 edition) and read the Dodge report. Just for the record, it was rated forth out of four. They cite all kinds of problems, mostly related to quality, substandard parts and ponderous handling. If you do buy a Mopar, make sure you don't get a Mexican made model or you will be very sorry. The Tundra on the other hand, is a class act and while a bit smaller, the most competent light duty pickup to come along in many years. They aren't cheap to buy but it is the old story, you get what you pay for. Good luck with whatever you decide.

davids1 · January 2000

My 99 4x4 Quad Ram 1500 has impeccable handling. Just came back from two ski trips in the mountains of West Virginia and the Ram performed flawlessly. My one complaint with this truck is fairly low fuel economy (12.5-13 mpg). It's a truck though, and I'll drive it and enjoy every minute of it.
One major factor for me was the size of the cab. I am 6'-5" tall and had to lay down in the Tundra to fit in. Getting in the back door was out of the question. BTW, my Ram was also built in Mexico. If you read any of the boards here, most will say Mexican made Rams are of equal quality to those built in the States. That Mexican-Ram-Slam has no basis whatsoever.

Drive them all and pick the one you like the most.

tundradude · January 2000

If you want to tow a lot of weight, like over 8000 pounds, get the Dodge.
If you like the peterbuilt look styling, get the Dodge.
If you like get a dually, or a crew cab, get the Dodge.
If you like to get those Dodge incentives which could be cash back or a nice low interest rate, get the Dodge. However, this could be relative, you would have to compare like models and equipment.
Otherwise get the Tundra.

eagleeye1 · January 2000

What I said was the Dodge was forth out of four. For many people, it is a good truck...so be it. Frankly, if I was not to buy the Tundra because I was seven feet tall, I would then look seriously at the best selling truck on the market, the Ford F-150.

Bud_light _dude, not being a mechanic hardly disqualifies someone for having an opinion. Your holier than thou attitude is showing.

Moparmad, Chrysler almost did go bankrupt and was rescued by the US government with bailouts many years ago. Since then, they have been dead last in the race. Daimler bought the company to make some big money on the backs of Americans. It remains to be seen if product quality improves as a result. In the meantime, the Dodge Ram is big, ponderous and uses far too much fuel. It severely needs a facelift as well. Don't just take my word though, just look at the many posts on the subject and you will quickly get a clear picture of the situation. By the way, Ford is the one making huge sums of money these days, not GM and certainly not Daimler-Chrysler.

Lohengrin · January 2000

I've found Consumer Reports reviews every vehicle as though it where a family sedan. Hence, the truck that drives, rides, and feels the most like a family sedan is the one they like best. I guess their latest favorite is the Tundra. Not surprising since every auto journalist has touted its "car-like" ride and handling. I also think that Consumer Reports has been a chief instigater of the myth that Toyota's are inherrently more reliable than American vehicles. In short, I'd take any Consumer Reports article with a large grain of salt.

I, too, have noticed less than stellar fuel economy. I think get around 15 mpg in mixed driving, the last time I checked. But, it's a truck, so I didn't expect big numbers. With the 26 gallon tank, I'm not having to fill up every day or anything. Besides, I don't think the Tundra does much better with either the V6 or the V8, despite all its Star Trek, DOHC, fly-by-wire techno jazz.

rwellbaum2 · February 2000

Get the Tundra! You'll have no regrets!

tp4unc · February 2000

You know I'm not strange.

barlitz · February 2000

I'm only kidding just having a little fun.

moparmad · February 2000

Chrysler's near bankrupcy was due to poor business practices,and management.Through it all they continued to sell vehicles.Daimler bought Chrysler because they wanted the engineering platform Chrysler used to bring cars from concept to production in six months.They also specifically stated that they wanted the Ram because they thought it the best truck on the market,thier words not mine.Dodge sells far more trucks than Toymota so by your own logic then Toyota must have a problem.And speaking of government saviors,lets not forget the billions of dollars the U.S. poured into Japanese business after WWII.
I find it amusing how the Dodge guys here have said they have had good luck with thier trucks and point out some of the trucks good qualities,while the Toymota guys jump in bashing on the Dodges and spewing unproven reterict about how superior Toymota quality is.So how about telling us about your good experiences,and the good qualities one can expect when buying a Toymota.
I simply stated that the Tundra is a new model and as yet untested by time,how can you argue that,it is a fact.
Apparently this guy who started this topic has already done his homework and just wants to know about our personal experiences with each product.
On that note I will say this...
So far I have not had any trouble with my 96 Dodge Ram.I don't know how you get more reliable than that.I get 16 mpg with the 360,it doesn't seem to matter where I drive this number will not vary more than a mpg.If you are used to driving a car then this fuel mileage will bother you,if you like me have driven trucks all your life then you will realize that this isn't bad mileage for a large small block.
The best add on device I have had installed is the remote start,love it in the winter.
Most of my friends and people I have worked with(over a hundred different a year)have remarked on how good my truck looks,it will still turn heads with its old,outdated styling.
I will repeat,it is a big descision,and you probably won't go wrong with either truck.So buy the one you like best,and don't worry about what others say.

bud_light_dude · February 2000

I happen to like the Dodge's "old and outdated styling".

I think most of us here agree with you. I don't claim any kind of GM truck superiority due to my owning one. I bought the GM because it had features I liked better than the others at the time I purchased. No other reason. I have heard many a "story" about all the truck makes, but I take it all with a grain of salt. ALL these trucks are built with very close to the same quality control.

I also agree that with any truck you buy, you will take the same risks of repair bills. It is a machine that WILL break eventually. THEY ALL DO!

ferris47 · February 2000

16 MPG with your Ram. That is awesome. I had the 360 in my Dakota and rarely could top 12 mpg. I mean my foot was in it most of the time and I had the high gears but 16 is pretty good.

I am not a huge fan of Chrysler vehicles, just because I perceive the company to be more dishonest then most and I perceive the quality to not be as good as the others. Again I had a Dakota and I have no real complaints, I am really going more on the general consensus of people I know with Chrysler products. I am not flaming anybody's decision here. I just wanted to clarify that even though I am not a DC,Dodge,Plymouth kinda guy, I do think they make the best looking cars and trucks on the market. I can see the RAM and Dakota mini RAM styling being classic in 15 or 20 years. Kinda like old Chevy Cameo's etc. The Viper is another of Dodge's violent works of art. The car itself does not suit my tastes for how it does its job and I would not own one, would that I could, but there is no denying it's appearence. I could do without that Neon and those damn mini vans though. I swear I will drive a mini van when they pry the truck or car steering wheel from my cold dead hands. Again just a personal bias.

eagleeye1 · February 2000

You belittle yourself by not spelling the Toyota name correctly. If you expect people to have respect for you, at least show some. By the way, the mockery of Toyota fans is a kin to the situation with race relations. It sucks guys...so don't go there!

There is no doubt that DC has some great looking vehicles. However, the long list of problem areas, from trannys to fit and finish, are a serious concern. When DC gets these things corrected, perhaps I might take another look.

When I spend mega dollars of my hard earned money on a vehicle, I expect a lot. Owning three Toyota's has proven to me that they deliver great reliability and quality. That is the bottom line.

jcmdie · February 2000

Considering your pastr experiences with toyota, one could not fault your decision to buy another.the tundra is not for everyone but they certainly do have thier spot in the market.

As far as some posts intentionally misspelling toyota or tundra; some may be giving an intentional dig but I believe that most are just funnin' with you.

cdean · February 2000

I disagree with Moparman on why Chrysler almost went bankrupt. They had some bad vehicles. Half of my family drove nothing but Dodges, Plymouths, Chryslers in the '80s---just when you thought everything could go wrong, something else would. Bad engineering, very unreliable.

Thank goodness uncle sam saved them, because they have good quality now, and they have driven the competition race in the US.

Although I agree to not take Consumer's Report as Bible, I disagree with dismissing it totally. Consumer Reports only reports the reliablity of vehicles, and really aren't into the "car-like" features, like someone said. If they do, i didn't read it. Consumer Reports compiles customer surveys. I have filled out one twice. they ask questions about your vehicle about every area: electronics, AC/heat, engine, transmission ,brakes, paint, interior quality, interior integrity, and a few more. You rate your year and model vehicle in each of these areas and list the specific problems/or no problems that you had with it.

Now I don't know how many people are actually surveyed, but I found Consumer Reports ratings of past vehicles (early to mid 90's) as very accurate. Problem areas with Dodges were transmissions, brakes, and electronics. Those were all areas that I saw lots of problems in with Dodges used in the drilling business of S. TExas. They were also accurate with GM and Ford problems of the time. GM had great trannies, but troubles with brakes and some paint probs. Ford and brake, paint, and electronic troubles. All accurate with my experience in work vehicles.

MSN Carpoint is another good source. They also have a consumer survey. They do no testing ONLY consumer survey. They had remarkably similar results as Consumer Reports.

So I would take the reports to heart, but as Moparman said, personal experiences are just as important.

Unfortunately, I haven't remotely had as much luck with Dodges as Moparman has...

cdean · February 2000

MOparmad

16 mpg is excellent mileage for a Dodge, around here at least. maybe its the fuel and climate. A close friend of mine drives a '96 ex-cab, with the 360 and 3.54 rear end. He drives slower than a 95 yr old lady, and he has never gotten more than 14 mpg. But he does love his truck, and hasn't had any major probs. What rear end do you have in your truck?

eagleeye1 · February 2000

Consumers Magazine gets over 400,000 surveys per year from the USA and Canada. I share your opinion that the information is useful. The repair ratings mirror the experience I have had with vehicles as well over the past thirty years. I guess that is why I now buy Toyota because they have been awesome for me and the CR stats show that too.

I also find the insurance bureau safety information valuable. The Dodge Dakota for example, is lowest in the safety ratings and the Toyota Tacoma is the highest in that catagory. See for yourself at http://www.hwysafety.org/

andy_jordan · February 2000

eagleeye1

Got to disagree with you on the safety aspect. Didn't study the link you posted too closely, but I did see that Tacoma safety was average compared to other small pickups.

Overall safety can also be misleading - have a look at the US government's highway safety site - www.nhtsa.gov

I haven't reviewed it lately but I believe Tacoma beats Dakota in frontal impact, but Tacoma definitely loses in side impact - it is generally acknowledged to be absolutely horrendous. Incidentally Tundra front impact is there - slightly better than average I believe, and side impact is due this month.

Of course there is the whole question of whether Tacoma and Dakota are in competition with one another anyway.

eagleeye1 · February 2000

First of all, if you guys are happy with your Dodge vehicles, great. I got burned too many times with problems from Big 3 vehicles and stopped buying them.

I am currently researching a buy a new truck and while quality of the American name plates has clearly improved, they still are not at the level of most of the Japanese vehicles. The gap is closing though. The more that there is competition from the [non-permissible content removed] nameplates, the less the gap will be. History showed us that several decades ago with cars.

Ragarding safety, the vast majority of vehicle accidents involve the front of the vehicle and if look at the reports form the insurance bureau, the Dakota is clearly the underdog in this case.

Side impact is an area that has only recently garnered attention and is a natural progression now that many companies have improved their frontal crash performance. Side air bags will soon become standard equipment, just as seat belts and front air bags did.

Andy Jordon, we can debate forever if the Tacoma and Dakota should be on the same list. Fact is, they are.

Gentlemen, if the posters on this board would stick to facts and opinions, then it will be worthwhile to read. Leave the mud slinging posts for the garbage can.

andy_jordan · February 2000

1) I wasn't mud slinging at anyone

2) I wasn't looking to debate Tacoma vs. Dakota

3) If you are looking for respect please learn to spell peoples' names correctly.

4) I believe that the generally accepted test that is the most accurate recreation of possible collisions is the offset front impact - that is at the corner. I don't know the results but I believe that imports generally do well here.

5) I would say that a 1 star rating was a major problem wherever it was - Is 4 star better than 3 - yes of course - but 1 star is just downright dangerous - regardless of whether it is on an import or a domestic.

moparmad · February 2000

You might as well give up Bud light dude.Isn't it funny how I started in this topic by simply stating that I have had good luck with my Dodges,and the Tundra is a new design,and I am suddenly close minded.I even went so far as to say I thought the Tundra would be fine,and gave the advice to buy whichever truck the guy liked,and still I was attacked.
These Toymota guys are only here to argue,and that is all they will do.It is fine for them to come here and say every Dodge I drove was junk,but it is not fine for me to say every Dodge I owned has been a good reliable truck.Then these boys say that we are hypocrites,and close minded.
This is simply because we do not believe Toymota is superior.
I am not irate or angry or anything of the sort.I am very cynical,and a bit sarcastic at times,but if I offended anyone's tender ego then I will apologize.I have always believed in sticking up for what I believe,and I believe Dodge makes fine trucks,and I have offered up my experiences to support my opinion.Everyone likes to attack me for owning a dozen different Mopars,but when you own 2 or more at a time and put 50,000 miles a year on them you will go through a lot of trucks in thirteen years.
I have never owned a Toymota just like probably half the guys who claim otherwise have probably never owned a Dodge.I have never given anyone advice not to buy a Toymota,and I have never said Toymota makes an inferior product.I have two friends who both own Toymota's(one of those guys got me calling them Toymota's),and one has had very good luck(the Toymota guy),the others wasn't so good,he broke the frame in half on his truck,but that wasn't the trucks fault due to misuse and NYS road salt.
I will simply not post to Toymota guys in the future,I don't mind swapping opinions but the answer from these Toymota guys is always the same...But consumer reports says...Noone has given any arguement to convince me of Toymota's superior quality,everyone but Toymota guys question Consumer Reports.I wonder what these Toymota guys would think if they knew Consumer Reports picked the 300M as a best buy and gave it thier highest praise for reliability...and oh my god..it's a Chrysler...wait a minute Chrysler can't build cars.

ferris47 · February 2000

I don't attack anybody for whatever they drive. Simple fact is I like just about everything on the road. I will spend a weekend testdriving etc. just for giggles and well, just for giggles. I am glad that you have had good exp. with Dodge trucks and I respect the fact that you let your exp. mold your opinion rather than use magazines or other media hype. Hell I hate consumer reports, I personally find it pretty biased but I could be wrong. I have post my reason why I feel the Tundra is superior for my purposes. I am not going to jump up and down and say my Toyota will outlast your Dodge because I don't know that. Nobody does. The Tundra is a new design, will it last? Hopefully. Other factors are invovled too. I take care of my vehicles almost like they are family. I expect you do too from your posts and that alone can mean the difference between a vehicle falling apart after 50K and one that looks just like it came off the assembly line. My point is the only way to make a major purpose is to use the exp. you have had and those of people you trust. Don't buy into the hype. I bought my Toyota because of a longer warr., an excellent truck all around and the perceived quality of the Toyota product. I am hoping that between the "Toyota Quality" and my car care nature she will run forever. I hope the same for whatever you drive. I have had bad exp. with Chryco products and company as have my friends and family. Does that make their stuff junk. Probably not. But am I going to use that info to base my decision...of course. All of my friends who have owned Toyotas have run the things into the ground for what seems like forever, except for one lemon Camry. I love the Tundra but had never owned a Yota. Figured I take the chance, so far I am amazed at how many things this truck does so well. My point is, please do not belittle somebody for owning a Toyota because they all attack or stand on their soapbox etc. I am not like that at all. I prefer hard real facts to any mktg hype and I mean seat of your pants facts, not numbers. I have driven Dodges, they make a good truck. I have never owned one myself long enough to make a quality call I have had friends who have. Again, these are my exp. which drive my decisions. Have you ever driven a Tundra? If not go take one for a spin. You probably will not like it over a Dodge, it is smaller, but if nothing else I think you willhave a blast test driving. The engine is wonderful and a lot of fun. Again, I am just making a suggestion and I am not trying to press my choices on to you. Good luck with whatever you drive and have fun with it, you paid many thousands for it, it better bring a smile to your face and some emotion to your soul.

eagleeye1 · February 2000

Where did you ever get the idea that the Chrysler 300M was named a Consumers Magazine Best Buy? I am looking at the 1999 auto guide and it is rated as NEW. In fact, of the seven vehicles shown under the Chrysler nameplate, only one is rated "recommended".

While we are on this topic, lets look at Chevrolet. There are 16 vehicles in the lineup. two are rated "recommended". The Lumina and Prism. Ford on the other hand, has 10 cars with that nameplate. 8 are recommended. I am not a fan of Ford but those numbers are impressive. Toyota has 11 different vehicles in the 1999 CR issue I refer to, 8 are recommended. The Tundra isn't one of them because they weren't out when this issue was published. It did receive the recommended label in the Nov 99 issue. Pretty impressive stats and they are based on feelback from 400,000 Americans.

Hmm. Sounds very biased to me!

bud_light_dude · February 2000

Moparmad: I agree with you 100%

Ferris: Unfortunately, you are one of the only good guys in the Toyota topics that can look at things objectively and keep personal bias as personal bias, while not trying to pass off that personal bias as fact. I for one, have never seen you post bashing or disrespectful comments. You have shared your opinions of the Tundra and even your past domestic experiences without slamming others' choices. I respect the info and posts you have provided. A few of my previous posts have resorted to some of the same immature tactics that the majority of the Toyota owners here have posted. For that I apologize. I have just grown weary of the unfactual comments and disrespect they have shown here and as any normal person would do, I lashed back. Like Moparmad, I too have stopped the long debates with these posters because for one, they have no knowledge of their truck and even why they claim a superiority, and two, they can't admit that they bought from a biased preference just like we all do. They want to make everyone think that the reason they bought a Toyota is because it is the only good and viable truck choice to make and that anyone who doesn't buy a Toyota is making a stupid choice. And again, Moparmad is correct, no matter what you say to these people, even if you agree with them and try to find at least "some" common ground, they will still post some moronic slam based on zero fact or even a high level knowledge of what they are talking about.
A thanks goes out to you for being a mature poster that is interested in sharing info and experiences rather than slams and disrespect.

Eagleeye: Again, you are referring to a magazine article to claim some factual data on superiority. It shows your lack of knowledge about the auto industry. Everyone knows that magazine articles are biased and based largely on who's deep pockets get filled first as to what the "ratings" are. That goes for all makes. Even when Motor Trend magazine claimed the Silverado Truck of the year last year, I gave it no merit. The magazines are very biased, even your beloved consumer reports that supposedly gathers it's data from public survey. Yeah, ok....whatever.

I will say again, it is very apparent that your "facts" in your article are bull. GM may not be in "your factual" magazine, but I still highly scrutinize what it states. GM sells way more midsize and luxury cars than any other domestic make and also Toyota. Ford outsells the GM trucks, but not by a large margin. I don't know Dodge's sales figures, but they too sell way more cars and trucks than any Toyota.
If there was that large of a disparity in quality and such, I guess that just proves the Toyota theory that all American buyers are stupid are continually buying junk vehicles in leaps and bounds every year ahead of Toyota. Well, I guess I will continue to be stupid then... happy now?

ferris47 · February 2000

Unfortunitly I do believe there are still a lot of people who buy that same make year after year junk or not. Be it Dodge, Yota, GM, or Jaguar for example. I think this number will continue to drop as more and more info is more readily available but many people are brand loyal to a fault. We all know this people. I use Jag as an example because ,and again personal experiance of friends and relatives, they have made junk for years and many people continue to buy Jag after Jag just because it's a Jag. I can't speak for the new Jags with Ford behind them other then they look sweet but as I said Jag, I think is a good example. My advice read all the mags, talk to all your friends, argue with the TBA or whoever and then take all that info and go drive em all. Drive em harder then you probably would before you by them. Literally kick the tires as the phrase goes. After it is all said an done drive the best one for you. I mean it all comes down to that. Don't ever fall for the hype. There have been a lot of great cars that have been overlooked just because of not enough MKTG. I mean Mustang out sells Camareo mostly due to MKTG reasons. Personally I think most of Fords advantage in sales over GM, Do they still outsale, because they only have to market one truck vs GM mtging. two. Only way you will ever know what you like is if you play with it and drive it. Course I am differnt because I was always the friend that did his own thing and never did what everybody else was doing or buying.

eagleeye1 · February 2000

Looks like you aren't a member of CU and haven't filled out your annual questionaire. I have every year for the past 15. You are right about Motor Trend Magazine and any other mag that accepts advertising. Their opinions are often bought. But in case you didn't know, CU doesn't accept advertising and the testers opinions are combined to weed out bias. They aren't one person's opinion. I got to tell you, I have a heck of a lot more faith in their opinions than any other magazine. Or yours, for that matter. You are just one individual, complete with your own perceptions, bias, ego, life experiences, maturity and so on. When you gather the impressions and experiences of hundreds of thousands of individuals, a picture emerges. For example, when asked if they would buy a Toyota Camry again if they could do it all over again, 90% said YES. That is the highest number ever recorded. Typically, GM sits at 66% for their entire fleet. That isn't to say that the GM experience is bad for everyone. Obviously, 66% are happy. It is the high 34% that aren't happy I address here. I hope you will agree that is far too many.

By the way, I have never heard that Toyota thinks all American buyers are stupid as you say. They do say that buyers want the best value for their money and Toyota strives (and sometimes fails) to deliver that. I got 100,000 miles out of my front disk brakes on my Camry. My Buick was lucky to get 20,000. That is the kind of thing I refer to Dude when I talk quality. No squeeks or rattles either and I have owned the Camry now for 8 years. The doors are still tight...no wind noise. See what I am talking about?

I test drove a Silverado a few months ago. The steering wheel squeeked when I turned it, the passenger door wouldn't close tightly, there was lots of wind noise and the motor was very loud. The ride was rough on smooth pavement and it was tough to park because of its gerth and wide turning radias. Then I tested a Tundra...one word describes my feeling...awesome! The motor was so quiet yet very powerful. Lots of room for my wife and I inside. Didn't need a step ladder to climb in. Easy to drive and in fact, it was fun to drive. Add to that my past experience with Toyota quality and durability, guess which one gets the nod? I even get a longer warranty than the Big 3 give without extra cost for extended warranty.

This is a no brainer Dude. It isn't a conspiracy against the Big 3 or designed to hoodwink the American public. The public wants and demands quality for $30,000+ hard earned dollars and Toyota delivers.

mviglianco1 · February 2000

Why would one choose to ignore the collective opinions of those represented in Consumer Magazine and put all their stock in the confessed bias of any of us in here?

mviglianco1 · February 2000

You were thinking the exact same thing and beat me to it.

quadrunner500 · February 2000

If you can be more concise in your posts, I think we clueless domestic owners can still infer what you are thinking, i.e. "I wish I bought a full size truck."

cskala · February 2000

When talking about reliability, Toyota get's the nod. Does that mean the big three produce junk? No way!! The quality of the big 3 is vastly improved over the late '70s early '80s. Everyone should agree with that. Even Iacocca admitted it and he pulled Chrysler out of bankruptcy. What was their target for reliability back then? Toyota and Honda. (if you don't believe me read Iacocca's book).

Back then they weren't in the same ballpark. Today it's neck and neck with Toyota ahead by a nose (if you believe the surveys). The margin is not even worth sweating, so who cares? The great news is as consumers, we all benefit by the improved reliability. Thank you competition!!

What's great about the USA is that we get to choose. The Toyota suits me better. Great power and ride comfort, great handling and if their track record hold exceptional reliability. But it is smaller than the big 3 you can't even get a LB with extended cab. And it's a 1/2 ton. So it's not for everyone.

My perfect vehicle? Tundra handling, ride,and fit and finish with the Silverado rear seat and looks, 30mpg around town, full locking differential, for half the price. But I'm very happy with what I have.

jcmdie · February 2000

In your post #44 you have me a little confused regarding the statement about ford outselling because they only have to market one truck. Ford has at least as many models of trucks as anyone else that I'm aware of. It's possible that I missunderstood. Could you clarify your point?

moparmad · February 2000

Hard for me to believe that Toymota's are so superior when just today I noticed dozens of late 70's early 80's Dodges,Fords and Chevy's on the road,and not one old Toymota.I know they exist,but I don't feel like they compare in percentages sold to those still alive.Neither does J.D. powers as long as everyone here is so hung up on survey's.
The last Toyota I drove was a 1997.Too small,obviuosly,but I thought it rode much worse than the Dakota I drove and I could buy my current Ram for just a few thousand more.I did get a screaming deal on my truck,if I had not I would have bought a Dakota,because that is what I could afford.I try not to slam Toymota over the few road miles I have had in them,unlike many people seem to do to Dodge.

bud_light_dude · February 2000

I still don't agree that the Toyota is any more quality than the Silverado, the F150 or the Dodge trucks. Quality "can" be a matter of perception. For instance, the "loud engine" you speak of. To me, that is music to my ears. If I wanted to drive a luxury car, I would have bought one. So, as you can see, what is deemed poor quality to you, is not a quality issue at all to me or many many others. There are a lot of whiny whiny people who fill out those surveys. Some of them may just be pissed off that day because they had a bad day or whatever. I have been there myself, so I know it happens.

I am through arguing this. It is clear that you Toyota owners are set on this perceived quality advantage. I am set that it doesn't exist as do the other domestic truck owners.

The Tundra is a good truck, no debate there, but definitely no better quality in my mind than the Silverado and "I" feel that I got way more for my money by buying the Silverado. I checked out trucks, including the Tundra, for about 6 months before I purchased. I had another Chevy truck and a Toyota Tacoma. After driving all the makes and checking out the different aspects of them all, the Silverado was and still is the winner in more categories than the others. If I have this truck 10 years from now, I know in my own mind, based on "my" experiences, I won't regret my decision.

Glad you all are happy with your "choice" in truck. May we part peacefully with that???

eagleeye1 · February 2000

If you are indeed happy with your Silverado, great!!!! I am happy for you.

By the way, maybe I am just getting old but I would rather hear the music from a CD than engine roar. Those days are long gone.

Have a good weekend, Dude.

tp4unc · February 2000

Cancel my request for Springsteen tix. I actually was able to purchase 4 in section 125 via the internet.......an absolute miracle!

eagleeye1 · February 2000

Yes in fact I tested a Ford F-150 as well. Liked it but I wasn't impressed with the brakes. Neither was CU. In tests it takes 27 more feet to stop a Ford from 60-0 than it does a Tundra. Didn't like the high step in required either. But that is a subjective point just like my view of the Silverados' rough ride.

As for the Bubba crack, if you play the part then be prepared to take the hits my friend. By the way, I am not a Yank.

eagleeye1 · February 2000

You aren't very good at figuring out where I am from. I could be next door to you or I could be from another continent. Good luck on this one now!

Lohengrin · February 2000

since I was on the site last. I hope the guy who started this thread to learn more about the strengths and weaknesses of each truck is getting something out of all this.

ferris47 · February 2000

Sorry what I mean't by that was GM has to Market both GMC and Chevy and try to differentiate them in some way. They have tried to make GMC the upscale truck and Chevy the work horse. This forces them to split their mktg and advertising resources.

Ford on the other hand only has to market the F-Series. This allows them to more efficiently convey to the public the strengths of their truck without dilluting the message with an identical product with a different brand name. I know Lincoln is coming out with the F150 based Blackwood but that will be a totally different animal in my eyes as it truely will be a luxo. truck.

This is just how I see the two. Ford seems to have a smarter more streamlined approach to selling cars and it seems to be paying off for them as they continue to grow in market share even though they are the little guy to GM, relatively speaking.

I am not trying to start a brand war as I really have no pref. Just stating what I see.

BTW somebody asked in one of these Tundra Forums how the Silverado can run on no coolent. Not sure where and to be honest I don't have time to find out where, but I figure they check all these forums out. As far as I know the Silverado's computer determines the coolent loss and shuts two of the engines cylinders down and uses them to, in some way, air cool the engine. I don't claim to be a mechanical mastermind but I think that is how it works in the most simplistic way.

bud_light_dude · February 2000

Partially correct. In an overheat condition, coolant or no coolant, the engine shuts down alternating cylinders and uses the the non-firing cylinders as air pumps to cool the adjacent cylinder down.

Ford has it too, not sure if Dodge has come on board with this yet or not.

I guess this is just yet another inferior feature of the Silverado to the Tundra. I am sure the Tundra never overheats and can run on no coolant and no oil either.....:)

ferris47 · February 2000

The Silverado has a lot of great features. Running on no coolent is one of the best features I have seen that will probably be a reasonably practical gadget.

I have said it once and I will say it again. I think the Silverado is probably the most technically advanced truck on the market today. I just think it is going through a lot of growing pains. All of my test drives with the Silverado left me feeling that this was a technically perfect truck. It did everything right. It just did it in such a boring fashion for me. It didn't get my blood boiling.

Remember my choice was between the Tundra and the Silverado. I too research the hell out of my purchases and what I found out from my dealer friends back home, I have friends in both Toyota and GM dealerships, was that as many as 40 or so % of the 2wd Silverados were having major vib. problems that they could not fix. My truck would have been one of the 2wd varients. This scared me. The Toyota people told me that they were having minor vib. problems with some trucks but they were few and far between and that they were alignment problems. I am willing to admit that because GM sells about a billion more trucks than Toyota that they will obviously report more problems but with buying a house at the same time I couldn't take the chance that I would get stuck with one of the problem trucks.

The Toyota, even with what I would consider a little less technology in some areas, brakes for example, I feel the sum of the parts work much better together. The Tundra is as fun for me to drive as my Dakota R/T was and it just feels much more solid that the others I drove.

Besides the Tundra fits in my garage with about 6 inches to spare. I would have hated leaving my Silverado outside.

I do not miss anything from the Silverado when I drive my Tundra. As I have stated, I thought I would miss not having 4 wheel disc brakes but I feel the Tundra has superior brake feel and much better ABS. I thought I would miss not having a LSD, but my Tundra is the most stable truck I have ever driven in the weather and it is a 2wd so I won't be offroading. The only thing that I would miss is that No Coolent running. I don't miss it now, but if I ever have a coolent problem I am sure I will think about it.

Remember a vehicle is not about the best numbers, or what is deemed the best tech. It should be about how that vehicle fits you. How does it make you feel to drive it, what kind of sense of security does it give you. These are all things that cannot be broken down and quantified into numbers. Am I a Toyota person? No. I am a Tundra person. Why? Because the sum of the parts that make the Tundra make my driving experience better then any other truck on the market and give me the sense that it is built better then the competition. I don't know if that is true. I know enough about cars in general to know that it is just as prone to failure as any other but my perception is that it will be more reliable. This in itself makes it a better truck for me.

bud_light_dude · February 2000

I can respect that and agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, your counterpart Tundra owners are not as objective and considerate of these things as you are. As a result, the war was begun. Having been a military man, I was instilled with respect and discipline, but I also learned that when the respect is gone and the war starts, fight to the end and fight to win. I tried to be civil to others here and just talk trucks. All I got was egged on for a war. A war now they have gotten.

The white flag will only be flown right along side of the US flag. Sorry you have ended up in the middle. If or when your counterparts want to start peace talks, I will have no problem settling things. Until then it will be bash for bash.

moparmad · February 2000

As far as I know Dodge doesn't have or plan to have any run hot features on thier engines.GM has had this for years on thier Cadillacs I think.I have never had a problem where it would have helped,but I can still see where the peace of mind would be nice knowing it was there if you need it.
I have no problems with any truck anyone else wants to own,but I have owned Dodges all my life and haven't regretted buying even one.So I would think people might see why I will continue to own Mopars,until they give me a reason not to.
I suspect this topic was not started by someone legitamately shopping the Tundra and Ram,I think it was started by someone who wanted to watch the war.That is why I have said my peice and can no longer see posting here.
I have enjoyed conversing with you Ferris and Bud light Dude,I had just about given up on Edmunds as a source for anything but new ways to slander someone elses ride.Hope to see you on another topic soon.

jcmdie · February 2000

GM has chosen to keep it's truck lines split an attempt to garner more sales. That is one of GM's favorite ploys. Look at the automobile lines of chevy, pontiac,olsmobile, and buick. For the most part they are about 80% duplication. They take the same car and market it with a different trim level. Their strategy fools few. They have chosen this strategy across the board and has done so for decades. They obviously feel that they are getting more sales this way. I personally feel that they should take one lineup and concentrate on doing it better than any other automaker instead of trying to split the market. But I no marketing genious. If they are at a disadvantage by keeping the chevy and GMC seperated,it is a self-inflicted wound.

mviglianco1 · February 2000

What GM does breaks one of the most fundamental rules of branding. They make so many different named but identical vehicles that when you hear the word GM no clear picture comes into mind. Think of Porche and you see a sports car. This is not to say that other manufacturers such as Toyota are not tending to go in the same direction with the Tundra and Sequoya(sp?) but not to the extent of the Chevy-GM confusion. Today specialization is the key to success, you risk diluting your identity and niche by venturing into new territory.

Lohengrin · February 2000

It's always been my understanding that GM is split because their corperate structure and dealer structure is so entrenched they couldn't change it if they wanted to. All the duplication may be bad for GM, but I think its good for the consumer as there is more choice is bodystyles and options. By the way, Ford seems to be going down that road with all of their recent acquisitions. Maybe not in the truck line, but their cars are already moving towards shared platforms, engines, ext. For example, the Lincoln LS and Jaguar S-Type.

cdean · February 2000

the mid size sedans they share with mercury have been that way for a long time. Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, Taurus/whateveritis, old Tbird/old Cougar..

z71bill · February 2000

GM branding strategy - Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Olds, Caddy is not wrong. They just need to create a real difference between the brands. Chevy stands for value, Pontiac for performance, Buick -for old people on fixed incomes, Olds for import fighter and Caddy for old people with more $$ than sense. Well on second thought maybe they need to look at their brand strategy.

jarodc · February 2000

Well, I have been out town for a little while and I was unable to read the posts until now. I appreciate everyone for their comments opinions and well whatever you call some of it :-)

I am going tomorrow to pick up.... MY DODGE RAM 1500 SLT 2wd quad cab. I won't be signing up for the TBA though. The toyota put up a tough fight, I read, drove, and read some more. Went to several dealers and got the best deals I could on both trucks. Noticed the Toyota boys weren't willing to deal much. Kept saying where number 1 and the hottest saleing truck. We don't have to lower our prices.. That was about the point where I told them they could keep their precious TOY. but I eventually found a deal I found agreeable for the Toyota. One thing I did not like was that 2 of the 4 toyota dealers I went to besides being Jerks (hey they are trying to make money too) decided that they wanted to treat me like I didn't know anything and tell me about all the problems with the dodge Transmission, steering, etc..... I asked them about the shimmy that I have read about on this site and they suddenly lost the ability to talk or remember. Anyway I didn't like the way they handled that. The dodge boys always said that the toyota was a good truck, one guy even admitted that he was considering one (for his second truck of course )

The Dodge boys, made one offer I made mine and I got it for 100 over invoice out the door. I agree with the posts above about the dodge having the better base price while the Toyotoa has a lot of "NICE" features that cost a pretty penny.

The thing that finally decided which truck was when I took the family baby boy, daughter and wife to test drive. The baby is still in car seat. While the Tundra does drive like a car, it has about as much room in the back as one too! The car seat barely fit, with seat all the way forward or at least as far forward as comfortable and safe. Granted he won't be in the car seat forever, but long enough to make it impractiable.
The dodge on the other hand had ample room.

I am going with the belief that when the makers of Toyota learns to make that are size proportional to their target group, then maybe I will buy one. They have to learn the average american is not 5'5" . I realize that may sound sterotypical, and I do not mean that in anyway, but it does seem that Toyota is more about being compact rather than comfortable.

Thanks again to everyone and I guess I will see you out there. I will be the one in the Dark Green Dodge !

jarod

Tundra or a Dodge Ram

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