Toyota Camry 2005 Facelift

bernie3 · July 2004

My best internet quote on a 2004 LE automatic with no added options is $16,888 + tax & license (this includes the $1,000 rebate). This is from a S.F. bay area dealer. Dealer invoice + destination fee on the 2005 is $18,003 per Consumer Reports price report. With no rebate likely on the '05 until... (next spring?), I guess my choice is, buy the '04 now, or spend $1115 to $1500(?) more in a couple months after the 05's are in the showrooms. A hard choice... I suppose a lot of the price difference will be absorbed when the '04's are suddenly a year old in the market's view.

307web · July 2004

I checked the trade-in value of a 2000 and 2001 Camry LE 4 cylinder automatic with no options and 48,000 miles in "good" condition in zip 90210 and the values were about $8500 and $9100. So, you probably might get about $600 in extra trade-in value 3 or 4 years down the road if you get a 2005 today, but you should be able to get a 2004 for much less than just $600 difference of a 2005. I doubt you will find a 2005 for invoice today or until the 2004s are about all sold out.
You could probably get a 2004 today for closer to $3K less than a similar 2005.

alpha01 · July 2004

"But the Accord is still a 2004 model, so you need to compare apples to apples."

Why not compare apples to apples being whats going to be on the market in the immediate future (in the next month or so)? What if you dont want to wait until the 2005 Accord is out in Oct/Nov? That leaves leftover 2004 Camrys, the 2005 Camrys, and the 2004 Accords.

FWIW re: side curtains- all of the 2004 XLEs in my area (Greater NY), 4 or V6, are typically equipped with this option.

~alpha

alpha01 · July 2004

"I checked the trade-in value of a 2000 and 2001 Camry LE 4 cylinder automatic with no options and 48,000 miles in "good" condition in zip 90210 and the values were about $8500 and $9100."

That analysis is skewed because it assumes a lower per model year mileage rate for the 2000, and a higher mileage rate per year for the 2001, which in turn will result in a lower figure for the 2001. If you're doing 48,000 miles for the 2000, you should do 36,000 miles for the 2001, because resale value figures do NOT factor in the "in-service" date, but rather MODEL YEAR.

~alpha

307web · July 2004

That makes no sense. If you were buying them at the same time and were debating on whether to buy a 2005 or a 2004 that same day, you would have the same mileage if you drove each car for 4 years from date of purchase. You wouldn't drive the 2005 for only 36,000 miles over 4 years, but drive the 2004 for 48,000 miles.

motownusa · July 2004

http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/toyota/camry/13766/options.html?- tmvaction=vdpresult&tid=edmunds.u.options.utmv.vdpoption.1.To- yota*
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2001/toyota/camry/100001837/options.h- tml?tmvaction=vdpresult&tid=edmunds.u.options.utmv.vdpoption.- 1.Toyota*

The above links are for a 2000 Camry with 36,000 miles and a 2001 Camry with 48000 mile. Notice that even with the higher mileage, the 2001 Camry costs more. Obviously factors such as what conditions are cars are in prior to selling is a huge factor. The longer you keep the cars, the less the price difference between two successive model years.

alpha01 · July 2004

My point is that when doing an exercise like that you should try and hold as many variables constant as possible. Since resale values are pegged to model years and not in-service dates, and mileage is not truly pegged to either, I'd hold the miles per model year constant if you are looking to determine the price difference between two model years of similarly equipped Camrys. The younger model year car essentially represents the older model year car at an earlier point in time, and as such, you have a comparasion of the resale value of a standardized Camry at a given point in time.

~alpha

307web · July 2004

That is not the comparison I was making.
I was was trying to determine if they bought a 2005 or a 2004 on the same date and sold either after the same period of time how much extra they would get simply because it was a 2005 model. Being a 2005 adds to the value, but part of that is subtracted because it would have higher-than expected mileage because it was actually purchased and driven starting in summer of 2004. It would be still be worth more even subtracting the mileage but not so much more to wipe out the discounts and rebates available on the 2004s that you can't get on a 2005.
In that scenario there is no reason for them to have different mileage at trade-in time.
In that case it doesn't make any sense to say the 2005 would have less mileage.

carguy000 · July 2004

I was just browsing Toyota.com, and I saw the 2005 Camry. Overall, I'm impressed, and it seems that folks like my parents may have more reasons to not opt for an Avalon (at least until they see what the new ones look like). They currently have a 2000 Avalon XLS, and have had 98,000 trouble-free miles.

One thing concerns me, and that is that seatbelt pretensioners have been left off the "safety" specs on the 2005 Camry webpage. Do you think this was done by accident in the updating of the site? Surely Toyota didn't remove them.

It seems that seatbelt pretensioners have been related to an increase in Toyota's crash test ratings. I'm thinking of the 1997 Camry (that didn't include pretensioners) and the 1998 Camry (that did, and also did one "star" better on the front passenger NHTSA crash test).

What do you all think? Thanks.

alpha01 · July 2004

I see your point. Thanks for clarifying. In my head, I thought you were making a different comparison.

~alpha

bernie3 · July 2004

...Model year trumps mileage - mileage & model being similar, but the difference decreases over time as value decreases. Common sense. Using kbb.com for trade in values on '03 & '02 LEs, no added options, 15K miles each, I get $14,575 & $$13,250 respectively (Eureka, CA zip). Changing the model years to '01 & '00 w/ 45K miles each, I get $9900 & $8900 respectively. The reason for keeping mileage identical, as some have noted, is to attempt to compare buying a 2004 LE & a 2005 when they both are available (next 60 days?). So it comes down to: 1) how good a price one could get on a 2005 the first month or so they're on the market (probably $1500 or more above the current price on 2004s). 2)how important the 5 speed auto., ABS, and other changes are perceived to be. 3) how long one plans to keep the car.

Has anybody heard if the '05s will be available in August?

motownusa · July 2004

And the fact that the 2004 MY cars have probably been sitting at the lot gathering dusts for months while the 05 is just off the delivery truck. For me, the price difference would at least have to be $2000 between the out going MY and the incoming model year to justify buying the older model. Salespeople naturally will try to sell the older model first by stacking hefty incentive to make room for the new model. If I were to buy a new car now, I would definitely go for the 05 Camry rather than 04. The 5 speed auto and standard antilock brake are a plus for the 05 model.

dudleyr · July 2004

I think '05s are at dealers now.

http://www.fitzmall.com

shows them in stock and has prices for them.

307web · July 2004

The difference gets smaller when you compare trade-in values. Your values sound high, so you must be using either retail or private party values. The trade-in value of a 00 vs 01 was only about $600 more for the 01.
Regardless, even if the difference was $1100, the rebate plus all the other discounts that could result in a sub-invoice price before the rebate, will equal much more than $1100. Don't expect the dealers to sell the very first few 2005s that are trickling in for the same discount as a 2004 when they have dozens of unsold 2004s that they want to get rid of first.
If you could get them both new for about the same price, then it makes sense to get the newer model.
However, you can't get them new for about the same price.

Also, the 2004's weren't all necessarily "sitting for months." Many could have been made just before the changeover. It is easy enough to look at the door jamb and see the manufacture date to verify on the specific cars on the lot.

dudleyr · July 2004

See the link above - they are selling 2005's for invoice. 2004's are 1,000 or so below. Not bad for the added content, plus newer model year.

307web · July 2004

If the actual transaction prices are only $1000 different, then it's a good deal. The were listing "some" 2005s for invoice. Certain 2005 Camrys were listed close to MSRP.

bernie3 · July 2004

Good input from all... thanks! I checked the fitzmall link posted earlier and they ARE listing '05 models. They're on the east coast, however. The lowest quoted price was $18,988 for a base LE in "metallic gray" (sounds like a throwback to the late '70s). The next higher price was $19,437 w/side air bags in the new "mineral green." So when they're available in northern Cal., a good price will probably be in the low $19,000s(?).

You might check out toyota.com for specs on the '05. According to that, the 5 speed ECT-1 is available on the LE but only standard on the XLE. That means the main standard upgrades are a 160hp over the current 157hp, ABS brakes, and perhaps the audio controls on the steering wheel. So the difference in price between an '04 now and and '05 in a month or so will probably be about two grand in my neck of the woods. Hmmm...

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/camry/specs.html

alpha01 · July 2004

"You might check out toyota.com for specs on the '05. According to that, the 5 speed ECT-1 is available on the LE but only standard on the XLE."

Just to clarify, what the Toyota.com specs page for the Camry means is that the standard transmission for the Standard and LE grades is a manual. The only transmission on the XLE is the 5 speed auto ECTi. This is the same transmission that the Standard and LE have, when they are equipped with an auto as opposed to manual.

Id still consider the 5 speed auto on 4 cylinder models a "main standard upgrade" since it replaces the previous 4 speed auto as the only automatic transmission option. Additionally, the electroluminescent instrumentation is much improved and a big deal, IMO.

~alpha

maxhonda99 · July 2004

Why can't all auto dealers by like fitzmall!!!

dudleyr · July 2004

That sure would be nice.

bklynguy · July 2004

We're interested in the 2005 Camry XLE (not sure if we want the 2.4L or V6) What would be a good price, based on the 2004 models for the

XLE 4-cylinder, side airbags, moonroof, no leather

XLE V6, no nav

Any suggestions on dealers in North/Central New Jersey (we live in bklyn but have family in NJ where we do most of our shopping, Fords & Clifton)

thanks in advance, Alpha
(I would have posted in the prices thread, but I noticed you don't post there often)

alpha01 · July 2004

I havent seen invoice prices on the 2005 Camrys yet, so Im sorry that I cant really comment on them. If you are a recent college or higher grad, you may be eligible for Toyota's College Grad Rebate, an often overlooked opportunity to save some $$$.

I think it might be slightly hard for you to find a 2005 Camry XLE with side airbags/curtains and moonroof but no leather. In your search, I recommend first visiting buyatoyota.com to find out how vehicles in North Jersey are typically equipped, then use carsdirect.com as a benchmark for the price that you can expect to pay.

Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out!
~alpha

bernie3 · July 2004

The '05 invoice prices are available on this site. Search new cars/sedans and scroll down the long list til you see 2005 Camry. Here's what they are for 4 doors, 4 cyl., automatic, no added options:
LE - $17,877
SE - $18,516
XLE - $19,929

Option packages & prices and V6 prices are displayed too. Has anybody actually seen a 2005 on a dealer's lot? A Santa Rosa Ca. dealer told me he expects to have them "soon."

toycash · July 2004

Most dealers should have at least a couple, unless they're not displaying them so people will buy the 04's. We had some in last week.

alpha01 · July 2004

How are your 2005s equipped? Are you ordering/seeing many of the 4 cylinders with VSC? My parents would consider an SE 4 5A with VSC and side airbags/curtains (plus rear spoiler, Convenience Pkg, floormats), but I feel this is a rare combo, and we will probably go with a Legacy 2.5i automatic, which is one very nice ride. Its funny that despite their wide range of models, options packages, colors, etc.... there just never seems to be the "right" one. If we purchase the Subaru, we will have gone from 3 Toyotas in the family in 2002 to 1. Is this how Toyota is planning to gain market share?

~alpha

jdeib · July 2004

My local dealer, Greensburg Pennsylvania has had at least three of them, all LE's on two silver, one red. They got the two silver ones in on Friday the 9th of July. I happened to drop by and looked them over. Pretty nice except the tail lights. The gauges are very cool. I just hope the SE's still light up orange.

bklynguy · July 2004

the car is for my mom & dad, they would like to get their new car in the next 2-3 months. They're also looking at the Accord EX and may be interested in the new Legacy 2.5 (any changes expected with the 05 Accord in response to the 05 changes with the Camry & Altima ?)

hank2 · July 2004

Kissamer -

Sorry I haven't answered. Vacation.

Like alpha says, passing is a matter of personal comfort... However, I had a 1989 Camry with about 120 hp vs. the 2004 SE with 157 hp. Makes a big difference.. With the 1989, I had trouble on the onramps if I was behind a truck. However, with the 2004, I have plenty of power.

I haven't checked the 0-60 MPH, but I was able to punch it from 45 to 85 MPH to pass a convoy of trucks that was conspiring to kick rocks on my new car. I'm satisfied with the power ... and I don't have a ticket for speeding, yet.

Preferencing - FYI: Forbes just ran a short article saying that Toyota was going to make "having it your way" a little easier. They may have finally gotten their act together, but in March Toyota Customer Service told me that they didn't support special orders. When I ordered my 4 Cyl SE in Feb. with ABS and side/curtain airbags only, I was told 6-8 weeks. The car did not arrive until June ! The manufacturer and the dealer pointed fingers at each other. I like the car, but the customer service for Sales sucked! Caveat Emptor... and is Honda listening?

- hank2

bklynguy · July 2004

just checked a few dealer websites, Toyota of Hackensack has several 05s in stock including the new color, mineral green which my mom would like to see (and compare with her other color choice, salsa red)

hank2- it would be great if Toyota really let us have it our way since my parents would like fabric in their XLE (I think most XLEs sold in NY/NJ come with leather as Alpha stated above)

alpha01 · July 2004

A quick clarification- IMO, its easy to find an XLE 4 in the NJ/NY area without leather. In fact, most XLE 4s (2004) on the lots are equipped with Alloy Wheels, Side Airbags and Side Curtains, Floor Mats, and Wheel Locks. The sticker on said vehicle is $24,113 (give or take a few dollars).

When I said " I think it might be slightly hard for you to find a 2005 Camry XLE with side airbags/curtains and moonroof but no leather." I simply meant that XLEs having the moonroof often have leather, not that all XLEs have leather, cause dealer stock is skewed toward my description above.

Sorry if I was initially a bit vague- I'm still grieving a bit over Toyota's announcement that, after 34 years, the Celica will end its run with the 2005 model. I wish I was in a position to afford a GT-S right now (its just too impractical a purchase), but perhaps I can find a good used one somewhere down the road.

~alpha

toycash · July 2004

Noooo! Don't get a Subaru! OK, just kidding, but at least check out the '05 Camry before the final decision(the new gauges are cool). No, we're not getting many 4-cylinders with VSC, at least not LEs. I'd have to go look at our regional build book to be sure. The reason you don't see certain combinations, is because the regional offices do the actual stock orders, and they choose the mix of options for each model according to what the dealers tell them most people want.
We are trying to get some LE's with VSC but I don't know if it will work. Usually a dealer can change an unbuilt order to match what you want, but it doesn't always work. You can special order anything you want, but it can take up to 3 months.

motownusa · July 2004

Get the Scion Tc. It isn't as powerful as the Celica GTS, but has better low end torque and a 6 grand cheaper price tag. If you get the manual tranny, this car will be a blast to drive.

lena132 · July 2004

I think what Alpha is trying to say is that he wants a Celica before the halt of production by the end of next year. The Scion tC won't be out of production for a while I think. Getting a Celica would be like remembering the best of it's 34 year life span. I might get my son one by Nov. 2005 so he can drive it in May of 2006.

I'm going to miss it.

toycash · July 2004

We've now got some with LE 4-cyl. ones coming in with just side airbags and VSC, so it can be done. You should be able to do the same thing with an SE.

alpha01 · July 2004

You EXACTLY captured my sentiment.

Toycash, thanks for the update. What options/pkgs are those LEs coming in with?

Also the 2005s have rear discs or are they still drums? Personally, I dont care, as long as the car stops well and has at least decent pedal feel, but the drums look bad with Toyota's jazzy Split 5 Spoke alloys that are available on the Camry LE (and which we have on our 2002).

~alpha

larryt22 · July 2004

Just curious if we have any '02-'04 owners out here that have had an up close viewing of the '05 and how you felt about the styling differences.

307web · July 2004

Are they the same as a Lexus or just "similar."

bklynguy · July 2004

optitron gauges just like lexus, I'm going to a dealer with a few in stock tomorrow.

bernie3 · July 2004

Just what ARE optitron guages? I've never driven a Lexus and I don't have a clue what they are.

toycash · July 2004

LE 4-cyl. are still drums. The ones we have coming with the VSC and side airbag package have no other options.

The Optitron gauges are back-lit with LEDs, so they look blank until you turn the car on, except in bright light, where you'll still see some of the markings even when its off. That's how they are similar to the Lexus gauges. But I think most Lexus gauges actually reflect the numerals from above, so they have a more three-dimensional look.

307web · July 2004

Oh, so they are not quite the same as in a Lexus. They do not have that 3-D "floating in the air" look?

toycash · July 2004

No, not quite, but they still look pretty good. Also, they light up sequentially, needles first, then speedo and tach, then temp and fuel gauges.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

Actually, the only Lexus that had the floating effect due to markings being projected onto the dashboard was the 1990-1992 LS400. All Lexus since then have merely been lighted from behind with either LED lights or neon tubes for needles. So the Toyota Camry's 2005 dash is basically the same as on Lexus, except in design.

petl · July 2004

Wasn't the 2003 Matrix the first Toyota (non-Lexus) vehicle to be equipped with optitron gauges?

dudleyr · July 2004

Are the Matrix gauges optitron? I have read a lot of complaints about them. People can't see them with polorized sunglasses. Can't remember if it was the major gauges, just some of the minor displays, or all of them.

petl · July 2004

We have a Matrix (purchased April 2002). It includes all of the gauges. I haven't had a problem with them because I don't wear sunglasses. The problem stems (based on the info I have read) from the colour. It's bright red. I can see where some may have some difficulty with it during the day. Looks great at night. I don't think the Camry will encounter the same issues with their optitron gauges. Debating whether we should trade our 2002 XLE for a 2005.

dudleyr · July 2004

I doubt the LE would have problems with white on black, but the SE has a similar color to the Matrix. Of course if you don't wear sunglasses it is not an issue, and I don't. Besides I prefer the LE gauges anyway.

rctennis3811 · July 2004

Aren't Optitron gauges the same thing as "Electroluminescent" gauges?

bklynguy · July 2004

"optitron" is the name Toyota uses for electroluminescent gauges (back-lit LED gauges which seem to appear when you start the vehicle), up to now used mostly on upscale/luxury vehicles like Lexus, Mercedes but that changed when LED gauges were introduced with the 2003 Accord. A really nice improvement which makes the Camry's interior more upscale IMO (you almost feel like you're driving a ES or maybe you are

has anyone taken a test-drive with the new 5-Speed 2.4L ? Toycash ?
How is it ?

xxon · July 2004

Went shopping today for the 2005 Camry LE 4cyl. Here are the upgrades I noticed: Different headlights (Lexus type?). ABS standard. Center console. Front & rear light. Side & Side curtain airbags are now optional (without moonroof). The biggest change was the gas mileage is now rated 24 city/34 hwy. Was this change made possible by the additional of the 5 spd. transmission? The Toyota website still does not list gas mileage for the 4 cyl automatic, but lists the manual 24/33. I wonder why the manual gets worse gas mileage, unless it is a misprint?

Toyota Camry 2005 Facelift

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