Hybrid Honda Accord

azhah · January 2005

I am in need of information regarding the HAH ECU.

Anyone know the location and pinouts, or where I can get this info? Specifically I'm looking for the speedo and tach outputs for use with an HUD unit.

Thanks.

georgepburdell · January 2005

Has any other HAH owner experienced FM radio interference when the electric assist kicks in? I hear static on the FM radio whenever I see blue bars on the IMA indicator, and also just before I see the blue bars. (The IMA probably has to hit some threshold above which you see blue bars, but below which it still interferes with the radio.) The Honda repair folks at the dealer and their tech support folks at Honda Motor Company have not been able to figure this out. There is no interference on AM or on XM radio stations.

I posted about this a few weeks ago, and got no responses, but maybe by now someone else is seeing (hearing!) the problem.

electrictroy · January 2005

...while watching Sci-Fi Friday. I was *surprised* to see 37 highway mpg. I thought it was much lower than that. Not bad!

As for the ad, it showed people doing a bunch of wasteful things like leaving the refrigerator door hanging open, or letting the water faucet run.... and then ended with "do something responsible for a change & help the environment - The Honda Accord Hybrid."

It had a kind of scolding tone, and I doubt it will sell cars.

troy

backy · January 2005

I didn't see the ad yet, but it sounds like a pretty stupid ad to me.

Kirstie_H · January 2005

Sadly, I've been turned off by the radio advertising. I assume it's nationwide. It features a youthful male who says "dude" a lot, and another character who's basically telling him to do something good for the environment and buy an Accord.

I'm not sure that the dulcet ramblings of Stonerguy are really going to speak to the majority of the sedan-seeking demographic. Not a reflection on the vehicle - just the marketing.

kirstie_h

Roving Host

Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions

1winglow · January 2005

Usually it's a sign of desparation when advertisers have to use the scolding, condescending or patronizing tones.

Those kinds of tone may have worked in old-time Japan or China but it will definitely back fire in America.

A few years ago, Charles Wang of Computer Assoc. was telling America's CEO's to grow up and buy his business software. Of course, nobody would do business with such a nasty and arrogant guy. Not long after, he was shown the exit door.

CA has been mired in years of troubles with the FTC for accounting frauds, dating from the Charles Wang days...

hondamon · January 2005

Hi All,

Did a trip to Phoenix form Murrieta. Have 2,200 miles on car. Traveling to Phoenix 34.1 (350 miles) and returning 33.7 but I was driving 80mph 90% of the way both directions. In Phoenix I got 29.8 while driving in town.

Took it to L.A. yesterday, 81 highway miles @ 65-70 mph and got 38.2mpg.

Return trip got 36.3 but @ 70-75mph.

Obviously, speed has a significant effect on MPG with the HAH.

It appears as you climb over 2000 rpm the MPG starts to decline significantly.

To the person with the FM static, I have not used FM as I'm a XM listener but I'll try to play it tomorrow and listen for it.

viet · January 2005

Hi Tim,

You love driving 75 - 80+ MPH so if you get caught the cops surely will give you some extra bonus gas coupons to add on your HAH's super gas saving. Good luck.

Also, I have never experienced any interference with my FM radio while the engine kicks in or kicks out. My HAH just runs like a wild horse. I have been a bit nervous with the engine on and off at stop lights or at speed lower than 10 MPH. Probably, I will check with Honda to understand the impact. As far as I know, the Insight's engine works exactly like the HAH's and has been OK. Cheer !

backy · January 2005

Usually it's a sign of desparation when advertisers have to use the scolding, condescending or patronizing tones.

Or it could just be the sign of an ill-conceived ad campaign. Comparing CA's troubles to a single Honda ad is, well, reaching to say the least.

backy · January 2005

Thanks for the report. It is encouraging to see the HAH return over its EPA rating for both in-town and highway driving, especially at highway speeds above which the EPA tests cars.

I have found 2000 rpms is the sweet spot for my two 4-cylinder compact cars too. Unfortunately, rpms climb over 2000 soon after 50 mph given the power of the cars and how they are geared.

hondamon · January 2005

Hi Viet,

No tickets for doing 80 in Arizona. The posted speed for most of the state is 75 for all autos including 18 wheelers and autos pulling trailers.

They don't even look at you doing 80.

viet · January 2005

2000 RPM on my regular V6 and HAH can speed up my Accords to 65 - 70 MPH easily.

The HAH's acceleration is quite impressive. That's why Honda calls the HAH a street rocket. Dan Jedlicka, the MSN Autos' critics praises the HAH "fast, practical, comfortable and high fuel economy". Compared with other cars in same class, the Accord is only behind Maxima in HP. Now the HAH's HP is about same as the Maxima.

The HAH's driver instruments on dash are really fine and nice looking. That is Honda's sophisticated state-of-the-art automobile. It always has been that way. Everything in a Honda seems to be proportional, logical, and driver/ passengers friendly. Honestly, I love the HAH more than the 3-series BMW even though the BMW can give me some more "social status" if I bought the BMW 325i instead of the HAH at same price. However, I have been in love with the HAH's latest technology (VCM, IMA, "no spare tire like the NSX for less weight in order to become a real laborer when I get a flat tire", high MPG, high HP, low maintenance cost, durability, reliability, etc).

rspencer1 · January 2005

I've got a HAH and ever since I've had it, its had a loud booming noise during cruising. Usually happens below 2000rpm and when the ECO light comes on. But it also happens at idle when first stated up, warm or cold. I didn't notice it at first, but now its very annoying, almost painful at times. Anybody else have this problem?

larsb · January 2005

quote rspencer1-"I've got a HAH and ever since I've had it, its had a loud booming noise during cruising. Usually happens below 2000rpm and when the ECO light comes on. But it also happens at idle when first stated up, warm or cold. I didn't notice it at first, but now its very annoying, almost painful at times. Anybody else have this problem?"-end quote

You have a VCM or ANC system problem. Get your car to a dealer right away. This is a defect.

crv16 · January 2005

I think you are asking for trouble if you expect repair costs for a hybrid to be similar to a conventional car.

For the Prius, there are $15,000 worth of parts related to the hybrid system alone:

$5,153.24 for the hybrid electric motor/generator

$4,920.39 for replacement battery

$668 for "relay assy, hybrid vehicle"

$1,250 for "computer, battery

$970 for "computer, hybrid control"

Plus many more. Check out the parts price sheets for the Prius:

http://ozgrl.com/images/engine9.gif

http://ozgrl.com/images/rearbo1.gif

http://ozgrl.com/images/interi7.gif

Not to mention the labor costs for any hybrid-related diagnosis and repair.

Its my opinion that hybrids are a guaranteed future source of profit for their manufacturers. They may be selling them at cost, but they will be more than making up the difference down the road.

larsb · January 2005

Those repairs are no different that major system failures for any car. Modern cars have expensive parts - PERIOD. Hybrids are not alone in that group.

Smart buyers who plan to keep a car more than 60K miles should be smart enough to buy an extended warranty up to 100K miles.

Not just in a Hybrid, but in ANY CAR.

rspencer1 · January 2005

Thanks I will. I was hoping this wasn't normal!

crv16 · January 2005

These are $15,000 in parts that a conventional car doesn't have. $15,000 EXTRA, on top of the already expensive components any car has. Most problems don't crop up until well past 100k miles, beyond the term of any warranty.

This type of car theoretically would be well suited for a high-mileage driver like myself. I put on 30k miles per year, and plan on keeping my current car to 200k miles. However, I wouldn't consider a hybrid with a $15,000 time bomb ticking away. It's not likely that all the components would fail, but you can plan on at least a battery replacement and probably one other major hybrid component in it's 200k mile lifetime.

larsb · January 2005

quote crv16-"This type of car theoretically would be well suited for a high-mileage driver like myself. I put on 30k miles per year, and plan on keeping my current car to 200k miles. However, I wouldn't consider a hybrid with a $15,000 time bomb ticking away. It's not likely that all the components would fail, but you can plan on at least a battery replacement and probably one other major hybrid component in it's 200k mile lifetime."-end quote

You are actually the PERFECT CANDIDATE for a Hybrid.

You put enough miles on per yr to recoup the "hybrid premium" as it is called.

You can buy extended warranty for $1200 and keep the car for 99K miles then get a new one.

Benefit to you: You drive a new car every three years.

Benefit to me: You are a great testbed for Hybrids.

Beneft to society: You are driving a cleaner car than most.

Benefit to you: You save about $2200 in gas costs and get tax breaks, city and state.

All high mileage drivers are good candidates for Hybrid cars. I say go trade today !!!

03accordman · January 2005

*Road and Track picked the Accord over the Camry

*Car and Driver picked the Accord over the Camry, put it once again on their 10 best list (including the HAH), thats 17 times out of a possible 21

*Motor Trend picked the Accord over the Camry

Even the ratingd that backy corrected for you at Edmunds pick the Accord over the Camry.

What's your point, dude?

1winglow · January 2005

Hi Crv16,

These hybrids' electronic modules are even far more expensive than I thought.

When they act up, and they will act up often, they have to be replaced at module level. Electrical problems are already the worst to trouble shoot and the most expensive to repair in current non hybrid cars. Ask any MB owner and they will tell you. Adding nonessential electronics is asking for a lot of problems.

You are dead on that MFRs are selling hybrid cars

probably at or below costs, for guaranteed future profit in expensive replacement parts.

It's impossible for after-market companies to copy the hardware and firmware in OEM's electronic modules. So OEM's can charge as much as they want for parts with no competition.

Thanks for the references.

electrictroy · January 2005

"For the Prius, there are $15,000 worth of parts related to the hybrid system alone: "

.

Who cares? I'm electrical engineer. Most of these hybrid parts are SOLID-STATE (non-moving) and will outlive the far more complicated gasoline engine.

For example, my Dodge Shadow blew out a valve and destroyed the engine at ~350,000 miles. But the electronics still worked flawlessly.

The solid-state electronics inside the hybrids will not wear out.

troy

crv16 · January 2005

Rubbish. Electronics are among the MOST likely components to fail:

http://aolsvc.aol.consumerreports.org/auto_new/report14.html

"Among late-model vehicles, the most common complaints involve squeaks and rattles, power accessories, loose trim and door latches, and electrical problems. "

"By the time a vehicle is three years old, brake problems join the roster of prominent trouble spots. By age five, electrical problems outstrip all others. "

backy · January 2005

But does "electrical problems" mean wiring (for which I've seen numerous problems in the Problems discussions on Edmunds) or the solid-state components? I have a 30-year-old amp and tuner at home that is ancient (and cheap) technology (transistors) but still works flawlessly.

Also, all modern cars have computers--most have several computers. So hybrids are not unique in that regard.

gagrice · January 2005

I have a 30-year-old amp and tuner at home that is ancient (and cheap) technology (transistors) but still works flawlessly.

In your home the temperature stays relatively stable. In a car the temperatures get Very high and heat is the biggest enemy of solid state electronics. Two different computer modules have had to be replaced in my wife's 1990 Lexus LS400. Both out of warranty and very expensive. The engine runs like a top. This is in a car that is considered the creme de la creme of reliabilty.

backy · January 2005

So it looks like avoiding a hybrid like the HAH is no guarantee of avoiding problems with electronics. I wonder though if reliability in these computer modules has improved any since 1990--that's "ancient" as far as computers go.

robertsmx · January 2005

Electronics are among the MOST likely components to fail

What kind of electronic differences are you talking about (between Accord V6 and Accord Hybrid)? All I can conceive is difference in controllers to incorporate functionality of electric motor (the less of a worry when you compare to the conventional engine).

viet · January 2005

Today, I noticed the HAH's navigation system was very accurate. The screen showed my car's current position exactly at the junction at a state highway and the exit when my car was entering that junction area. The HAH's navi. system deserved one more point today. Engineers and "logical and math-oriented people" like me do love accuracy and precision.

I heard the Prius' hybrid system is too complex compared with the HAH's. On the highway, the HAH would beat up the Prius in term of far and high performance.

azhah · January 2005

I saw someone mention this already but I have to add that the instrument display is spectacular! From the moment I first checked one of these cars out the instrument panel caught my eye. When you open the door, when you insert the key and when you turn on the lights the lighting always impresses me. It's bright without being overpowering. The graphics for IMA/GEN, mileage and everything else are well laid out and frankly too much fun to watch. The problem being that one must remember to keep their eyes on the road!!!

There are also some other "little" features that make the car very user friendly. I like the faint amber light that unobtrusively illuminates the console area. I like the console lid that slides forward to provide a slightly better armrest than most. I like the power outlet in the console. I like the extra cup holders in all the door pockets (just discovered that one today.)I like the sunglass holder. I like the way the map lights work with a simple push on the light lens itself. I'm still amazed at the amount of space in the back seat!

I have also noted that one should have about 100 miles left to go (city) when the "low fuel" light comes on. I drove about 10 miles after I first saw mine today and at fill up it only took 13.5 gallons.

Anyway those are just a few little extras that some may not be aware of. I still seem to find new things even after three weeks of spending time with the car

Of course, the nav, voice activation, heated seats, XM etc.. rock too!

viet · January 2005

"Logical, well-organized, well-balanced...people" love the intelligence and the innovative spirit from Honda/ Acura. Honda's amenities and the arrangement of everything in a Honda always have impressed me. The interior space and everything from a Honda please me very much. If one looks at the interior of the other (losers) cars he/ she will very much appreciate what Honda offers. Some other (retarded) cars are simply "metal boxes" and engines on moving wheels. My 1995 Accord I4's MPG is still same as day one and may be a little bit more. I drove 75 - 80 MPH on a 300-mile trip and the MPG is 30 - 32. Same with the V6. No cheating whatsoever. My current HAH's MPG is 29 in cities. No cheat from Honda. Only thing is Honda's genuine parts are somewhat expensive. Good things are not cheap.

backy · January 2005

If one looks at the interior of the other (losers) cars... Some other (retarded) cars are simply "metal boxes" ...

There's no need to put other people down just because they don't own a HAH, or a Honda. You can enjoy your own car without belittling others.

cablack · January 2005

There's no need to put other people down just because they don't own a HAH, or a Honda. You can enjoy your own car without belittling others.

Amen to that. And not only that, but belittling others makes me even less inclined to listen to your arguments.

georgepburdell · January 2005

Today I spoke with American Honda Motor Company's customer relations person about my HAH's continuing problem of FM radio interference (static) when the IMA kicks in (blue lights on the dash). To recap: My local dealer had tried to figure out the cause of this problem for about 2 weeks, with the help of the Honda tech support people, but were unable to figure it out, and handed the problem over to customer relations.

So today I got to speak with the customer relations person. He informed me that they were able to reproduce the problem ... in *all* other HAHs they tested. Every one of them. Honda has not identified a fix for this problem. The customer relations person said that the engineers have determined that "It is a characteristic of the car." The customer relations person said he is not able to offer me a buy-back, nor offer me a different vehicle, and that he has been advised that The Lemon Law does not apply here. He could not guarantee me any kind of fix would be forthcoming, although he did say that the Honda technical folks are looking into the problem. Possibly they will issue some kind of fix, but possibly they will not.

When I asked him whether the Honda sales folks would now be disclosing this FM radio problem to potential HAH buyers, he said that it would be up to the sales people to determine that.

Well. This does not sound like the Honda Motor Company I know. I am stunned at this cop-out. It appears to me that they have a design flaw that they didn't catch during their testing. But because it doesn't affect safety or driveability, maybe it just isn't a priority to fix it. I don't understand how this can possibly be acceptable to Honda, not to mention consumers. I would like to be optimistic that they'll come up with a fix, but my conversation with customer relations left me feeling otherwise.

If anyone cares, for me the problem is most obvious when tuned to a classical or talk radio station. Again, the problem is only FM radio, not XM or AM.

1winglow · January 2005

It looks like a few of the electronic modules are radiating in broadbands which include the FM frequencies. It's tough to fix without redesigning the modules.

With high level of DC power being converted to mechanical energy, there are losses that are radiated in various frequencies. Something may be harmful to human. You never know.

Ear cancer has been linked to mobile phones' very low radiating energy. Leukemia has also been linked to people living around down-converting power stations.

Please keep us posted on how this problem is solved.

1winglow · January 2005

Once you tap into the ECU pinout, I believe your warranty is voided.

merlin180 · January 2005

>>> that "It is a characteristic of the car."

B.S!!. It's reasonable to expect a radio to work without static.

>>> and that he has been advised that The Lemon Law does not apply here

That, of course, is just their opinion. Personally I'd be making phone calls to various consumer/state/legal agencies at this point

>>> He informed me that they were able to reproduce the problem ... in *all* other HAHs they tested.

hmmm - are *all* the other HAH owners on this forum listening to just XM ? - anyone?

I'm starting to wonder if getting a HAH, this early in the product lifecycle, is such a good idea.

hondamon · January 2005

georgepburdell,

I'm glad you brought this up again. I'll have some free time tomorrow and I will definatly check this out. As I mentioned in previous post, I listen to XM exclusively.

You have peeked my interest to try my FM.

viet · January 2005

Sorry to Backy, Cablack and you guys. I did not mean to belittle anybody/ any car. It was just my quick joke at the wrong time.

For the FM interference I will check on it. I have listened to my favorite FM Channel 99.7 oldie music without any problem. The voice commands to the Audio must be clear and correct. The Fleet Manager kept reminding me to read the manual.

azhah · January 2005

Not the case. You may not modify the ECU or alter input in any way but "tapping" an output signal has no impact on the vehicles opperation or warranty. It's very common for after market electronics to tap into Tach and VSS among other things.

As for the "FM Effect" I listen mostyly to 93.3 FM here in Phoenix and have not noticed this issue. Can you explain what exactly you hear? Is it just static or is there some pattern? I have noticed that if I place my cell phone in the tray beneath the radio/nav system that I will get this cyclical buzz-tone every few minutes but it goes away when I place the phone elsewhere.

I don't see how this would rise to the level where "lemon law" would come into effect. They may simply have to replace or better shield the radio or maybe even the ant. lead. I do hope it works out for you one way or another!

PS: I don't know of ANY newer cars that are "loosers" or "retarded." I think that was just a poor choice of words (looking for a laugh perhaps)

merlin180 · January 2005

>>> "tapping" an output signal has no impact on the vehicles opperation

From a purly electrical engineering point of view, "tapping" an output will cause additional drain and capacitance, so *could* take the signal out of spec causing a downstream component to get incorrect input. I guess it depends how you tap the signals and what sort of equipment it goes into.

I have no idea what the warranty implications are.

azhah · January 2005

Well, at least in the case of Tach and VSS the only thing recieving the signal is the dash instruments. All other readings required from this signal are internal to the ecu. These outputs, since for instrumentation use only, would not be an issue unless the change your instruments calibration. The latter not being very likely. It's not reading a voltage but a wave form.

hondamon · January 2005

I ran my HAH for 20 miles at all levels of acceleration working the gas pedal for the (blue) assist bars while listening to FM radio including classical and talk. I could NOT discern any audible sounds while in the blue bar area.

My curiousity grows with your statement that it only occurs on 2 stations (claaical and talk). This seems very strange to me. I'm no tech but that does not make sense to me. I would think it would happen on all or none on your receive.

Any radio techs out there.

viet · January 2005

I have listened to several FM channels. No problems so far.

georgepburdell · January 2005

I can hear the interference on every other FM station I try, but it isn't as noticeable on pop music or rock as it is on classical or talk, where there are more periods of silence. The classical and talk stations are at different parts of the FM radio spectrum.

The static I hear sounds like someone is crinkling a plastic grocery bag.

I hear the static always when the blue lights come on. I also hear the static sometimes when I don't see blue lights, including the time just before I see blue lights. But I don't hear it any when I see green (charging).

When I had asked the customer relations person whether they tested this on NAVI and non-NAVI models, he said yes, although I wonder if he was sure about that. Mine is non-NAVI. Does yours have NAVI?

viet · January 2005

Mine gets the Navi. I will check on those FM radio carefully tomorrow.

hondamon · January 2005

Mine is non-navi. I still think it is a problem with the radio unit itself.

robertsmx · January 2005

What are the frequencies of the two stations you're referring to? Also, have you tried their adjacent channels?

georgepburdell · January 2005

One more observation, from this morning's commute: For the first time, I continued listening to 91.5 FM for my entire drive, and when I got to the 50 mph stretch of road (most of my commute is 30 mph), I saw the electric assist come on (blue lights) but did NOT hear the static. This was the first time I had seen blue lights without static, but also the first time I had listened to FM while driving 50 mph.

Hmmm.

merlin180 · January 2005

Just thinking out loud here....

Maybe the frequency of electrical noise simply moves out of the radio band range at higher speeds.

If the IMA motor is producing electrical noise when it's producing power (blue light), it would be logical that the frequency of the noise is related to the speed of the rotor, which in turn would be related to engine RPM (not road speed as the IMA is before the transmission)

But even though the road speed was 30 mph vs 50mph, I guessing the engine RPM was similar ???

>>> Hmmm.

Agreed

merlin180 · January 2005

OK - here's another thought:

>>> The static I hear sounds like someone is crinkling a plastic grocery bag.

I think I'm right in saying that the (VCM related) Noise Cancelation feature uses the same speakers as the radio. Maybe what you're hearing is a variation on the Noise cancelation problems another person has mentioned on this forum, particularly related to the VCM transitioning from 3 to 6 cylinders ( which if you're not doing highway cruising, would roughly match when the IMA kicks in)

Possible ?

Hybrid Honda Accord

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