Hybrid Honda Accord

maxhonda99 · March 2004

webster7,

"Like the Mexicans who drool over new cars for a spot in their lives in ten years,"

ARen't you making kind of a generalization about Mexicans? I know plenty of "Mexicans" who could buy one now.

You should watch your mouth.

maxhonda99 · March 2004

rfruth,

I doubt a Accord Hybrid will cost $35K. I would guess it will be about a $2K to $3K premium over a Accord V6 EX. And of course it will probably be selling for full sticker.

nw1997 · March 2004

Personally, anyone in there right mind should not purchase a first year model. Main reason, just read some of the posts here on Edmunds. There will be bugs, glitches, etc. I would not want to be a test rat for Honda or any other car maker. The Hybrid seems promising, look at what the V6's are getting now, over the 30 MPG, and I believe the Hybrid Accord will be around this amount. These Hybrids need to be able to function without the heavy batteries. I understand that Hydrogen vehicles may be the way to go in the future.

john1701a · March 2004

> heavy batteries

99 pounds is not heavy.

> Hydrogen vehicles

Hydrogen technology is significantly MORE expensive. The process to create the fuel results in HIGHER overall pollution. And the efficiency is quite a bit LOWER.

There simply is no benefit.

And there will NEVER be such a thing as a pure fuel-cell vehicle anyway. It will actually be a HYBRID, taking advantage of regenerative braking and storing electricity for use later the same way hybrids do now.

JOHN

ateixeira · March 2004

I'm excited to see these, try one even. Up until now it's all been about range and fuel economy, I'll enjoy seeing one built for a little extra performance boost.

270hp plus good efficiency sounds good. It's worth paying more for.

I drove and liked the Prius, but 0-60 is slower than the Chevy Aveo (per C&D).

Looks like the Accord won't suffer a similar fate.

-juice

wco81 · March 2004

Some get close to 30 on the highway but not 30 AFAIK.

alpha01 · March 2004

Your statement regarding Prius vs. Aveo acceleration as judged by Car and Driver represents a very on-the-surface evaluation that is only partly correct.

Typically, the best comparisons are made comparing Apples to Apples. The Prius uses a CVT automatic, whereas the Aveo tested was equipped with a manual transmission.

That said, a closer look of the Aveo 5sp's acceleration reveals that in real world driving, it is BARELY faster than the Prius, based on C&D info.

For their 0-60 figures, C&D uses racing techniques, I'm sure you are aware, to extract maximum potential from the vehicles. The rest of us just floor the accelerator from a stop, an event replicated in C&D's "Street Start, 5-60" test.

Using that measure, the times were:
Aveo 5sp 11.0 seconds
Prius CVT 11.3 seconds

It is only logical to conclude that the Aveo automatic would in fact be less sprightly than the Prius CVT in real world driving.

~alpha

ateixeira · March 2004

Fair enough, but Toyota does not offer a 5 speed manual so you're stuck with a relatively slow fuel miser.

I drove it and it feels adequate, actually, just not quick.

The potential for a fun/quick fuel miser is more enticing. That was my point.

-juice

leearthurs · March 2004

In reference to the earlier post by rctennis3811, I believe that Toyota is licensing to Nissan, and some other manufacturers, their first generation hybrid technology, not their new second generation technology found in the new 2004 Prius. By doing this Toyota is helping to broaden hybrid market acceptance . . . while at the same time maintaining their leadership position in hybrid technology on the road. This is called smart marketing!

leearthurs · March 2004

While I am pretty familiar with the current Honda and Toyota hybrid technologies (the approaches are very different from each other), I would like to understand better the pros and cons of each as compared with the other.

My current impression is that Toyota's approach is the better one for improved gas mileage whereas Honda's approach is better for improved mileage within the higher acceleration performance market. Is this impression correct? Are there other trade offs, pros, cons?

Kirstie_H · March 2004

Welcome to Town Hall, leearthurs. You'll likely get some feedback on your toyota v honda comparison question here, but you might also want to visit the fairly new discussion about the technology licensing on our News & Views board:
Both Ford, Nissan buy Toyota's Hybrid System!

john1701a · March 2004

> I drove it and it feels adequate, actually, just not quick.

The 50kW motor in Prius is so smooooooooooth that you won't feel anything. There is no vibration from it like you'd get from an engine. So perception is skewed.

So to judge adequacy, you really need to focus on what the speedometer tells you and not what you feel.

JOHN

john1701a · March 2004

The most important fact to keep in mind is that:

- Toyota's primary goal is to REDUCE EMISSIONS

- Honda's primary goal is to INCREASE EFFIECIENCY

That difference is significant. And it is by no means obvious. In fact, it is quite commonly not even realized. Studying the design though, it does become apparent.

Toyota has an electric motor 5 times larger than Honda and offers the ability to drive using just electricity. Slow moving heavy commute traffic is where pollution is worse. Emissions are drastically reduced in these conditions, by having that ability to crawl along without the engine needing to run. The steering & A/C are electric too. So that also reduces having to run the engine as often.

Honda requires the engine to run for almost all functions; however, that engine is well tuned for that. So if you do nothing but high-speed cruising on highways and don't ever have to deal with heavy commute conditions, the resulting efficiency will be rather impressive.

JOHN

yerth10 · March 2004

Honda decided to put hybrid in a 2-seater vehicle (Insight) and the share
of this segment is hardly 2 % of the Worldwide sales.
Sales volume was so low.

Again they are planning to sell a hybrid version of V6 Accord whose sales
is hardly 10 % of Accord's 400,000 sales in US.

No idea why Honda is going after such low volume segments.
On top of this, they are selling a manual version whose share is hardly
20 - 30 % in US & Japan which is going to increase their R&D costs.

Toyota is smart in the sense that they are just concentrating on 1 transmission
system and saving the costs.

Also they are going for the 5-door vehicles whose demand is surging every year.

ateixeira · March 2004

Honda may have intentionally limited volume, since it's an untested technology.

I bet the Accord hybrid will be higher volume.

-juice

yerth10 · March 2004

Any idea on how many H-Civics and Insights were sold worldwide so far.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Toyota is smart in the sense that they are just concentrating on 1 transmission
system and saving the costs."

That's because HSD ECVT is more efficient than a manual transmission and smoother than even 6-speed automatic transmission.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Again they are planning to sell a hybrid version of V6 Accord whose sales is hardly 10 % of Accord's 400,000 sales in US."

Accord hybrid will have very little performance improvement and fuel economy. I do not think the premium you pay extra might be appeal to a lot of people. 2006 Camry hybrid might give you more bang for you buck. Let's wait and see until more information come out.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"I would like to understand better the pros and cons of each as compared with the other."

Current Honda offering Pro:
- Save cost from one small electric motor
- Cost less to make smaller battery

Current Honda offering Con:
- Very little electric assist (36lbs-ft torque at 1,000RPM)
- Can not regenerate and drive with electric at the same time
- Ability to capture little from regenerative braking
- Wear out the battery more due to frequent deeper discharges thus, shorter warranty
- Costs more to manufacture manual/CVT transmission, alternator, starter, clutch/torque converter, etc..
- More complicate than a traditional car
- Variable Cylinder Management(will be in Accord Hybrid) reduces engine drag on highway only

Current HSD Con:
- Costs more to make two electric motors/generators(~20KW and 50KW)
- Costs more to make larger battery

Current HSD Pro:
- Can drive on electric only mode(Stealth)
- ECVT Transmission superior than manual or mechanical CVT transmission
- Huge electric assist (295 lbs-ft torque from 0-20MPH at 1,200RPM)
- Can regenerate and drive on electric at the same time thus, able to drive up hills and recharge battery at the same time
- Ability to capture much more from regenerative braking
- Battery usage is minor due to frequent recharge thus, longer warranty
- Elimination to manufacture manual/CVT transmission, alternator, starter, clutch/torque converter, etc..
- Simpler than a traditional car
- Atkinson cycle engine reduces engine drag(more efficient) in the city and highway with easy, minor modification and costs very little
- More efficient. (Compare lighter/smaller Civic even manual transmission highway 51mpg with faster Prius ECVT in 0-60 or 30-60 and highway 51mpg)

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Honda's approach is better for improved mileage within the higher acceleration performance market."

Nope. Smaller Insight 1850lbs with 73hp manual(should really compare with CVT) tranny gets 0-60 11 seconds. Bigger Prius 2890 lbs with 76hp ECVT tranny gets 0-60 about10 seconds.

Toyota Volta claimed to get 0-60 in 4 seconds using Lexus 400h HSD.

Dennis

venus537 · March 2004

it'll be interesting to see how the next generation civic hybrid compares to the current prius.

the current civic hybrid sure was an improvement over the last prius and i suspect the same will be true when the next generation civic hybrid debuts. hopefully the next civic hybrid will keep its more conventional dash and not such a "goofy looking" one as in the prius.

of course you only have to wait to this fall for the accord hybrid.

rfruth · March 2004

It will be interesting to see how the next generation HCH compares to the current prius but I'm not convinced the current HCH was such a big improvement over the last prius although comments like a goofy looking dash could be a clue. Don't get me wrong I have a '00 Civic hatch (not a hybrid) and its great but if it comes down to 30 grand for a Accord hybrid or 25 grand for a Prius look out Toyota here I come ! Maybe Honda will keep the price low for the V6 Accord hybrid and have a hatch version (or at least fold down seats) and make it tough on me.

john1701a · March 2004

> more conventional dash and not such a "goofy looking" one
> as in the prius

Have you noticed lately how the body style of the Classic model is slowly become more and more typical? The rigid & boxy look is out. The SUVs are all taking on a rounded & curvy feel now. That makes the older Prius begin to fit in rather well. It also gives the Civic-Hybrid the impression of being outdated. Kind of makes you wonder what Honda will do this fall. Hmm?

So, that makes a person wonder how long it will take before the more practical dashboard layout of Prius becomes the "in thing". People crave change. And the fact that having a speedometer that is not obscured by the steering-wheel and you don't have to look down or refocus much to see it is more practical, makes it likely to catch on. Being the 21st Century and not having a screen on the dashboard is a bit odd too. Even the cheap cell-phones have color screens. Why shouldn't a vehicle, especially when the screen can be used as a cell-phone interface? It can also be used in conjunction with a camera to make backing up safer & easier. Info on the hybrid system operation is quite useful too.

JOHN

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"the current civic hybrid sure was an improvement over the last prius and i suspect the same will be true when the next generation civic hybrid debuts."

Those who can't live without a manual transmission might go for honda hybrid design. As for the next generation, I don't see improvements other than bigger battery and motor(s). Honda might adapt to Atkinson cycle engine. I don't know how it will go together with I-VTEC.

Dennis

leearthurs · March 2004

Usbseawolf2000, thank you for your knowledgeable answer in comparing the Honda and Toyota hybrid technologies as you did in message #70. Do you have any idea whether these two different approaches are due to differing objectives (Increased Efficiency versus Reduced Emissions - see #64) or are the differences primarily due to the exclusive patent rights one company has over the other?

In summary, I have been under the impression that Toyota's hybrid technologies are more advanced than Honda's, guessing that this was the case due to Toyota having gained exclusive patent rights before Honda for certain technologies. The longer lists of Toyota pros and Honda cons seem to confirm this possible reality.

jchan2 · March 2004

both Honda's Hybrid system and Toyota's hybrid system still save you gas- that's much better than what the Detroit big three are putting out in terms of Hybrids.

leearthurs · March 2004

I, and most readers, realize that Honda and Toyota are well ahead of what Detroit has to offer in regard to hybrid technologies; that goes without saying as Japan has been ahead of Detroit for years now (FYI, I used to work for one of The Big Three).

My interest is in knowing more detail re: the Honda and Toyota hybrid efforts, in particular which company's technologies are better and to what degree exclusive patent rights come into play in the competition. I could care less about what Detroit is doing as they appear to be far behind.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Do you have any idea whether these two different approaches are due to differing objectives (Increased Efficiency versus Reduced Emissions - see #64) or are the differences primarily due to the exclusive patent rights one company has over the other?"

Prius is a product of G21 Project started in 1992. The objectives of G21 was to reduce emission and increase usage of recycled materials. Hybrid was chosen because it was the logical choice to reduce emission.

I believe Honda was working on a hybrid at the same time. I am not sure the time frame when they started though.

As for patents, Toyota has six principal patents on the HSD. They are US5907191, US5914575, US6005297, US6067801, US6131680, and US6161640. They cover concepts such as, electronic controlled CVT, Stealth mode, electric assist driving up hills while charging battery, charge-discharge mode(converting engine HP to high torque at low speed when torque is most desire), regenerative braking, ability to recharge battery while driving in reverse direction without requiring additional mechanical gearing, ability to capture excessive energy from the internal combustion engine during it's most efficient RPM power output, etc...

I do not know when Honda patented their design. Ford, Nissan and others are licensing HSD probably because of those HSD patents.

Dennis

leearthurs · March 2004

Dennis, you obviously know your way around Toyota hybrid technology - thank you for sharing your knowledge on the message board.

As I understand it, Toyota is licensing its first generation hybrid technology to Ford, Nissan, others, not its second (current) generation technology. As inferred in an earlier post, the licensing of their dated technology is not being done deceptively. Ford et al know full well that what they are licensing is dated, but necessary for their initial forays into hybrid production models (such as the Escape which has seen delays in introduction for reasons I am not aware - maybe due to licensing negotiations for all I know!).

In any event, Ford et al want/need to get hybrid product on the road or they will be left in the dust by Toyota and Honda. Toyota, on the other hand, is more than interested in having more hybrid product in dealerships across the globe in that doing so will increase interest in hybrid product overall. The licensing of dated product accomplishes that, but still keeps them ahead of the competition. As I said in an earlier post, smart marketing by Toyota.

I guess at this point, I will surmise that Toyota hybrid technologies are superior to Honda's and that they have exclusive patents as you have outlined above which aid them in maintaining their superior position in the technology.

In summary, I certainly look forward to seeing their hybrid power train being introduced throughout the Toyota and Lexus models - Highlander and 330 this fall, with other models to follow in short order.

I guess patience is the order of the day. Thanks again, Dennis, for your worthwhile information.

jchan2 · March 2004

Any pricing info? When are dealers taking orders for this car? When can I head down to the local dealer, write a check and pick up an Accord hybrid?

benji · March 2004

Yes, the Hybrid Accord does sound interesting enough. I think this will be a good make, and most likely, a good year for Honda.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

leearthurs,

You are welcome. I notice you currently have two Honda cars. You must be technology driven type. Interested in latest hybrid technology and stuffs.

Dennis

sockpuppet1969 · March 2004

how about giving me a clue as to how you know what vehicles I own

He checked your town hall member profile :-)

Kirstie_H · March 2004

You might want to delete your own message - posting your e-mail address on a public message board is a good way to get even more spam. Spammers "mine" the boards for addresses.

Kirstie_H · March 2004

If you own a hybrid or are seriously thinking of buying one, and would like to share your experiences and thoughts with a newspaper reporter, please send your daytime contact info and city/state of residence to turnip213@yahoo.com and/or jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Thursday, March 18.
Thanks!
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

leearthurs · March 2004

Dennis,

You must have a crystal ball. Yes, we have two Hondas - 1992 Accord and 2001 Odyssey - and think they are both outstanding motor vehicles. The Accord has 150k miles on it and still looks and runs like a brand new car; we are begrudgingly thinking of replacing it in order to gain access to current safety technologies as well as improved gas mileage over the 30+ mpg we presently obtain.

Yes, I am a firm believer in reducing dependence upon oil. Read the Pulitzer Prize winning "The Prize" by Daniel Yergin (an incredibly well written and insightful history of the petroleum industry); you will understand why. Candidly, as I see it, current hybrid technologies are the precursors to hydrogen fuel cell hybrid technologies - the ultimate answer for making significant inroads in reducing the world's consumption of oil. In reading Yergin's book, you will come to understand why Japan has made such a major commitment toward this end (hint: something significant happened during the 1973 oil embargo).

Obviously you are an 'insider' in the automotive industry - how about giving me a clue as to how you know what vehicles I own - not that I mind, mind you. My guess is from state motor vehicle records??

Yes, I respect and appreciate new technologies, particularly in the automotive industry which is where I 'cut my teeth' in industry after obtaining BSEE and MBA degrees. I have inordinate respect for Japanese automobile engineering.

Lee

jchan2 · March 2004

I don't care about brands, just as long as I can buy a car that fits the description below:
reliable
dependable
good value
higher MPG than competition
Mildly Sporty
I guess the Honda Accord comes closest. The Big Three have cars that don't get high enough MPG numbers for me and the Koreans have the same problem. It seems the Japanese have the most efficient cars, and Honda has made the Accord a tid bit sportier than the Camry. (and more efficient)

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

leearthurs,

I just took a glance at your profile.

I am in the computer industry. All my knowledge are from research done with my own spare time. When I was a child, my dream car was to run either on solar power or water. Technology didn't move as fast as I wanted to.

Hybrids are in the right direction especially HSD. We will be seeing fuel cells soon. I hope I live to drive a fuel cell car with solar energy absorbing paint.

Dennis

leearthurs · March 2004

Dennis - I hope we both will have that opportunity - to drive a fuel cell automobile with solar energy absorbing paint. This is a great idea. Congratulations! You may have just hit a home run! Have you ever talked with anyone about the subject? Lee

ateixeira · March 2004

jchan2: consider the Malibu, it's both quick and efficient. In fact CR found it more efficient with its 3500 V6 than the Accord or Camry with a 4.

-juice

gatrhumpy · March 2004

You're wrong. I checked a website, and the Malibu, even with a V6, gets worse gas mileage that a Honda Accord I4. The Honda Accord gets 26-34 MPG with a 4, and the V6 Malibu gets 23/32 for the regular Malibu and 22/30 for the MAXX. The Malibu V6 gets that same mileage as a I4 Camry also. Maybe you should paste facts instead of fiction.

ateixeira · March 2004

I am not wrong, I mentioned my source, CR = Consumer Reports. In their tests, the Malibu V6 was indeed more efficient, as I mentioned.

You are looking at EPA estimates. I was looking at CR's actual mileage. We're just looking at different sources.

In fact you actually made an error in comparing it to the 5 speed Accord, because there is no MT Malibu. 93% of people buy automatics and we should compare apples to apples.

-juice

03accordman · March 2004

The best comparison is the EPA figures. Different publications get different mileages, so its very difficult to go by those figures. EPA figures are scientifically done and are the closest for comparison:

Accord Auto I-4: 24/36
Accord Auto V6: 23/30

I don't have the EPA numbers for the Malibu though

gatrhumpy · March 2004

When I made my comparison, I made them with both the Accord and Camry with Automatics. What are the numbers that CR says?

ateixeira · March 2004

My post about the Malibu was mostly in response to jchan2's statement that "The Big Three have cars that don't get high enough MPG numbers for me". That's why I brought up the Malibu, no matter who your source is the 3500 is at least competitive, and some sources (CR) even give it an advantage.

So my point stands.

If you think EPA figures are best, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

EPA puts cars on a dyno and then only simulates what it thinks are typical conditions. Some times they are accurate, often they are way off base.

This is specifically true for the Toyota Prius, owners aren't getting nearly what the EPA says they will. 46mpg is about average, and the EPA is way, way off at 60/51.

EPA might need to revise their testing methods to better capture estimates for hybrids. In fact I think Toyota issued a statement warning customers not to expect the optimistic EPA results.

Given we're in a hybrid-oriented topic, you'd be wise to get more sources than just the EPA estimates for the upcoming Accord hybrid before taking the dive.

-juice

john1701a · March 2004

> Toyota Prius... 46mpg is about average

That is NOT true.

The only real-world data currently available is from 2004 Prius that aren't even broken-in yet, many are in temperatures significantly below the EPA minimum testing criteria, and they are all using winter-formula fuel.

Once break-in is complete, the minimum temperature becomes a reality, and the same fuel the EPA tests were performed with becomes available, efficiency averages will climb to about 50 MPG.

And I know that for a fact, since my 2001 Prius delivered 50 MPG all last summer. Doing the same with my 2004 will be considerably easier.

JOHN

jchan2 · March 2004

I was thinking about the Malibu actually, and it's on the short list of what I'm considering.

ateixeira · March 2004

That's all the data we have so far.

States like MD use reformulated fuels year-round, FWIW.

We'll see how much this improves in the summer. A/C might offset some of those gains.

One positive is that you can see how passionate Prius owners are about their cars. ;-)

-juice

jchan2 · March 2004

the more hybrids out there saving gasoline consumption and reducing dependence on foreign oil, the better!

alpha01 · March 2004

Yea, I'm sorry, but Im going to have to agree ENTIRELY with Juice on this one. CR's test loop is well thought out and offers a very realistic expectation of what most owners will acheive given a blend of city and highway driving. I RARELY do all city and all highway, which are the numbers that the EPA puts out.

gatrhumpy- maybe you should educate yourself a bit before you go instructing long-time board contributors on how to post, espeically since Juice CITED his number.

03accordman- CR uses the exact same test loop everytime, and provides a good measure of overall MPG.

The Accord 2.4L 5A tested at 24 MPG overall.
The Accord 3.0L 5A tested at 23 MPG.
The Camry 2.4L 4A tested at 24 MPG.

CR lists the Camry V6 MPG at 20 overall, but that is outdated since the tested engine/transmission (non VVT/4sp) are no longer available. The 3.3L 5A Lexus ES330 tested at 22MPG overall.

The Malibu 2.2L 4A tested at 24MPG.
The Malibu 3.5L 4A tested at 26MPG.

PERIOD. Same testing loop, procedures, and equipment, and no artificial dynos involved.

~alpha

Hybrid Honda Accord

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