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Hybrid Honda Accord

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"Because of higher drag and resistences on highway! Highway = High speed. In another word, environment factors pull the MPG down. Prius loose about 15% MPG due to higher speed. Wouldn't you say it is impressive?"-end quote

    Indeed impressive.

    But the part I have yet to see fully explained anywhere is "why would a Full Hybrid SUFFER more at high speeds than a comparable mild hybrid?"

    In other words, WHY are the fulls rated lower at hwy speeds and the milds rated better at hwy speeds?

    The answer seems to be that the Fulls "are more effifcient" at capturing regen energy and thus can utilize the electric portion of their drivetrain better at slower speeds than they can at higher speeds. And the milds use the electric portion less effectively at city speeds.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I brought it up to compare complexity of IMA mildbrid vs. ICE only car.

    If addition of electric motor (which essentially replaces a part of the flywheel), a storage system (batteries) and a computer to manage it all is complexity, what exactly is not?

    NiMH battery (current implementation) is maintenance free which transmission isn't.
    I couldn’t say that for NiMH batteries, but could say that for UC. I hope someday Honda makes a move to use its UC pack instead of batteries. A mild hybrid system shouldn’t need as much of it as a full hybrid (or Honda’s own, FCX) does. As for transmission, the latest Honda transmission (RL) isn’t supposed to require maintenance until 120K miles. Not bad, huh? Around the time, hybrid owners will start worrying about, not maintenance, but replacement of batteries.

    Regardless, I would rather have a 6-speed manual transmission than deal with all electronic, elasticky, slushbox that the eCVT in Toyota Prius (or CVT is in Civic Hybrid).

    HAH will have about extra 15hp before all six cylinders need to fire up. I wonder how much it helps for the 3500+lbs car.

    You can keep wondering about “how much”, the original point was… that IMA seems to do more to VCM.

    Wouldn't you say a more powerful electric assist would further complement the VCM?
    Like the 100 HP IMA system showcased in Honda Dual Note Hybrid (2001 Tokyo Motor Show), or 60 HP IMA system showcased in Acura RDX (2002 NYIAS)? Probably. And we might see it sometime soon!

    And how is that, a full hybrid have the "Control System" and a mildbrid doesn't?
    FooBrid or MyBrid, both need control systems.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "This is the reason that the city fuel economy sees an even greater improvement than highway fuel economy in hybrid vehicles."

    First, this writer did not acknowledge that City mileage should be higher than Highway using common sense.

    Yes, it is a major city mpg boost. But remember, capturing and reusing power from the battery is only ~80% efficient due to the loss during conversion and battery resistence. This is not a very good situation for any hybrid but HSD handles it very well by looking at the results(60mpg).

    On the highway, there are much less conversion so, powertrain should be more efficient but there are more environmental drags that pull the mpg down.

    Dennis
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Check this out:

    "The Environmental Protection Agency's City/Highway fuel economy rating of 60/51 mpg puts the Prius at the top of midsize sedans sold in the U.S. The City rating is deceptively high, however, because the Prius uses the electric motor for much of the EPA's city driving test cycle. (Ironically, Toyota is legally barred from warning consumers of this.) The EPA's Combined rating (which reflects EPA's guess of a car's overall fuel economy) of 55 miles per gallon, is higher than that of any compact sedan sold in the U.S."

    Maybe that's why the fulls always test better at city - nothing to do with design, efficiency, or anything else - It's merely the fact that in the City EPA test, the electric assist is active more.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "But the part I have yet to see fully explained anywhere is "why would a Full Hybrid SUFFER more at high speeds than a comparable mild hybrid?"

    How do you know mildbrid isn't suffering as much on highway? If you are comparing it to mildbrid's city mpg, you have to ask more questions. How much is the mildbrid suffering in the city? Maybe mildbrid suffers a lot more in the city than a full hybrid?

    Going slow increases mpg but stop-n-go wastes more fuel. This is where a mildbrid doesn't do as good job as a full hybrid. Reasons? It can not capture as much energy. Can not power on electric motor alone. Energy storage is smaller. etc...

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "But the part I have yet to see fully explained anywhere is "why would a Full Hybrid SUFFER more at high speeds than a comparable mild hybrid?"

    Yup, the design that enable more electric mode will be more efficient. Remember, Prius battery can power the car for no more than 2 miles. EPA City test is much longer than that, so battery power makes almost no difference.

    Dennis
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    OK agreed that a Full does a better job in City traffic. We already knew that from EPA anyway.

    But it CANNOT be doing a better job ALSO in hwy driving, because it is not using the electric motor, it's "advantage" over the milds....
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"Prius battery can power the car for no more than 2 miles. EPA City test is much longer than that, so battery power makes almost no difference."-end quote

    Not true - read on:

    "The City rating is deceptively high, however, because the Prius uses the electric motor for much of the EPA's city driving test cycle. (Ironically, Toyota is legally barred from warning consumers of this.)"
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Prius uses the electric motor for much of the EPA's city driving test cycle"

    Yea but, it only take 1-2 minutes to recharge the battery to full. Did the prius recharge during the city cycle? Was the battery power the same level at the end compare to the start? Probably the same level. If not, the difference is only about 1 mile.

    Dennis
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    How about that Accord Hybrid - anyone know when they are going to be available? Any new word?
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "But it CANNOT be doing a better job ALSO in hwy driving, because it is not using the electric motor, it's "advantage" over the milds.... "

    Electric motor has advantage only in the low speed city driving because of high torque. Gas engine is more efficient on highway. It doesn't make sense to convert gas into electric to drive high speed with electric motor.

    So, full hybrid has less advantage than mildbrid on highway because they both have efficient gas engines. Yet still, Prius get more mpg on highway than HCH. I believe it is because of HSD bypassing the transmission.

    Dennis
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"Yet still, Prius get more mpg on highway than HCH."-end quote

    Doesn't get more mpg on hwy than my 2004 HCH manual tranny - they are both rated at 51 mpg....:)
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "anyone know when they are going to be available? Any new word?"

    Dec 3rd. On time for Christmas!

    http://hondanews.com/CatID2128?mid=2004091739095&mime=asc

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Doesn't get more mpg on hwy than my 2004 HCH manual tranny - they are both rated at 51 mpg....:) "

    So, there we go! eCVT is as efficient as a manual tranny. *Ignoring car size and weight* wink wink. Take care.

    Dennis
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    I don't have the time or energy to go back and delete the 20-some off-topic posts in here, but last warning - any further posts that are not specifically about the Hybrid Accord will be removed without notice.

    HOT TIP: If 3-5 people are posting most of the messages in most of the hybrid discussions, it fits the definition of monopolizing the conversation. Take a break. Get a drink. Get some fresh air. Whatever you do, stop trying to one-up each other in here. No one is learning anything because no one can be bothered to read it all. It's just tedious drivel.

    If you take a quick look to the left, you'll see the end of my rope just peeking out from the margin...

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "How about that Accord Hybrid - anyone know when they are going to be available? Any new word?"

    Honda says December 3rd, 2004!!!

    "Honda proves a hybrid can have other benefits besides good fuel economy — there's great performance to boot.".... Unlike the Prius.

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6134289/
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Glad for the HAH, afraid when the general public hears hybrid they think low emmisions & high MPG, now if you want the fastest Accord its the hybrid or as Honda says more power less gas !
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think all hybrids are niche market cars. I think Honda is filling one of the niches for people that want a green high performance vehicle. More power to them.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I think all high performance vehicles are niche market cars and now the HAH joins the ranks.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I better jump into the discussion, otherwise it could be dubbed monopolizing! Right host? ;-)

    Yep, and a different perspective to hybrid was necessary to change the perception. I have a feeling, that may have been the driving force behind choosing V6 as forming the base engine of HAH over I-4.

    The latter could happen, but with more emphasis on fuel economy/emissions than performance. But, it is nice to target both ends of the spectrum, as well as compete in what is otherwise a "near luxury segment" as well.

    I hope, however, Honda comes up with a TSX Hybrid, and mates it with a manual transmission. That can be my type of car.
  • dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    It's not the actual performance gain that Honda is after with the HAH, but rather they want people to perceive that hybrids are not just slow, miserly sipping point a to point b types of vehicles but rather they can be FUN (to some extent even more so than their gas only counterparts) while being efficient. (This also explains why they aren't coming out with a VCM manual Accord, because doing so would only hinder their agenda.) If they can communicate this message, IMHO, they have achieved a greater level of success than if they pop out another 4-cylinder hybrid.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think another reason Honda is starting at the high end with the HAH is that it is easier to recoup development costs on a higher-priced car. Once the new technology in the HAH is accepted and proven, Honda can move it down the chain if they choose. The 4-cylinder is plenty peppy and already gets great fuel economy. Imagine what it could get as a hybrid. Then there's that hybrid diesel Accord that some here have been lusting after...
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I’m not sure how HAH can help change perception from one aspect of hybrid that people have gotten used to (focus purely on fuel economy and emissions) to performance side of hybrids. That’s why I see it as an attempt to change perception of hybrids rather than create a perception (it already exists, as far as hybrids are concerned). In concept form, Honda tried it three years ago with the Dualnote Concept.

    As far as VCM is concerned, Honda may be offering it in Accord Hybrid before they do in regular Accords, but if the hybrid option were to be added to vehicles like Odyssey, it would be in reverse. So, I’m not sure how that hinders the cause. Could you explain? And to take it further, Honda isn’t offering HAH with manual either, so if it made sense to offer Accord V6/VCM w/manual to get better fuel economy, it would also make sense to offer manual with HAH. I wish Honda did.

    As far as VCM itself is concerned, and I have covered it before, presence of electric assist seems to help it a little more. Under light throttle acceleration, the VCM wouldn’t switch to six-cylinder mode if the load requirement is within limits. With no electric assist, VCM would immediately switch to V6 mode (as it does in Odyssey).
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    I am going to buy a brand-new Honda Accord hybrid this December 04. No question asked. This HAH will add to my great collection of Honda autos and motorcycles.

    Viva Le Honda !!! Honda makes my life happier. Other old-lady Camries or ugly Nissans will breath smoke from my HAH's big rear. Other Big3 oldies will be voluntarily discarded to the auto junk yards when their owners look at my shiny HAH.

    Honda's engineers are so smart to achieve goals on performance and fuel saving for their Honda autos for almost 3 decades. HAH's price is affordable. I am thinking about getting a navigation too. Congratulations.
  • wellhallwellhall Member Posts: 20
    Strictly speaking, if it's 3 to 5, that would be oligopolizing, but then this isn't an economics discussion group, and I suppose monopolizing got your point across.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    larsb asked:

    >But the part I have yet to see fully
    >explained anywhere is "why would a Full
    >Hybrid SUFFER more at high speeds than a >comparable mild hybrid?"

    The full hybrid uses an Atkinson cycle motor which gasins about 4% efficiency at the expense of having almost no low end torque and a low max RPM 4,400 and a very peaky torque curve. However ,the HSD system is designed to operate the engine at only one speed to provide its peak torque. The speed is varied by a pretty unique CVT-like planetary gear with one ICE, MG1 ( Motor Generator 1, Motor Generator 2) This chagres the hybrid battery and also provides low-end torque.

    The biggest problem is that the MG1 and MG2 are always engaged. Even at highway speed when the hybrid battery is fully charged both MG1 and MG2 take away from the ICE power. There is a conversion loss when the ICE turns MG1/ MG2 to generate electricity. It would be more efficinet to obtain the power directly from the ICE; the is no conversion loss from ICE to ICE. Now remeber the whole premise of the HSH is to maintain peak torque; so the proponents say that there is extra power being generated at highway sppedd , so there is not loss. Yah right that is why the highway efficiency (mpg) is lower than the City mpg.

    It would be interesting to develop a prototype Prius that had an IMA and realy compare apples-to-apples. Or visa-versa to develop a HAH prototype that utilized the HSH concept.

    WE the Prius made it to big time news: Paul Harvey announce that Toyota is doubling then number of Priuses imported to the US.

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    P.S.- larsb thanks for joining and for your commenets, insight and fresh perspective
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    HAH is scheduled to start arrriving at Honda dealerships in December 2004.

    Honda seems to be better at scheduling thier vehicle delivery than Toyota or Ford.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    considering the time you guys spend on this forum, are you both PAID by the respective companies to loiter around here and just push their own company agenda?

    i'm suprised this fracass and wastage of argumentative space has gone on and on and on and the forum moderators who used to be so trigger happy in the distant past when the FMO forum was slapped off aren't interjecting in and booting you all from edmunds.

    Bravo!

    ksso
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    "booting" people from Edmunds forums who desire to fuel the fires of debate is a poor solution. If someone repeatedly ignores Host requests and personally attacks other posters, well that is a good reason. But not just because they are debating an issue !!

    People ought to be able to discuss their views and beliefs "if staying at least close to the subject at hand."

    Sometimes arguments about one issue cause a branch of arguments to begin on a related issue - that's just how debates go.

    May The Spirit of Debate live on.!.!.!.! :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    considering the time you guys spend on this forum

    I imagine everyone is at work. I notice it drops off on the weekend. When discussing future vehicles there is a lot of dead time between little snippets of actual information. That dead time is filled with banter and opinions. You know what they say about opinions & backsides "we all have one".

    PS
    If you think this one is bad go check out "I Don't Like SUVs" there is 60k posts that are very repetitious.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I have always assumed that these boards are for more than making statements. I’m always open to good debates. Oh as far as getting paid for it, I wish. ;-)

    I’ve also had issues with the way Edmunds’ is moderated. Either the threads deemed offline or personal attacks be thrown right away, or let it settle down on its own with “moderate moderation”.

    That said, I thought this thread had taken a turn for good. Hopefully it will continue to go this way. In the future, if you think any of my posts “starts” something with an inflammatory remark, please feel free to point that out. You’re one of the more balanced members I have noticed on this board.

    I hope to continue to provide information or share my opinion on the subject. But at the same time, we couldn't complain about a thread being "live" could be?
  • dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    1. People are entitled to their opinion.
    2. Don't take what other people say too seriously.
    3. Its okay to disagree, it is not okay to insult.

    Keep these in mind guys and we all can have fun on the board.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,147
    That's the spirit!
    'nuff said :)

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
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  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    Even though my favorite cars are Honda, early 2002 I test drove a Camry V6 XLE 2002 and also an Accord V6 EX 2002. Finally, I decided to buy the Accord V6 EX. That was my 8th Hondas in the row.

    Honda's advanced automotive technology, its attention to details, customers' comfort and satisfaction are far more sophisticated and absolutely much more superior than Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi and even BMW or Mercedes. I test drove a 318 BMW and I hated it so much for its awarkness and discomfort. That is why Honda's resale values are very high. You can't be wrong to buy a Honda. In 2003, Honda built 17 millions Honda engines including autos, motorcycles, lawn mowers, etc. Recently, Honda has been contracted to build jet planes' engines for the U.S.

    I am going to buy a HAH in December immediately when their first shipment arrives in the U.S. regardless of its price. Honda's automotive technology is superb and its engineers are super intelligent. I am willing to pay for Honda Accord (hybrid) name plate. I have been waiting this HAH since 1999 as the Insight and the Civic hybrid are too small.
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    I also bought an Accord Coupe V6 2003 for my son. He has been driving it around from North to South California for fun with his friends before he entered college.

    The HAH I am going to buy is for my other son next year. I am the "legal custondian" of that HAH for at least 1 year. In the next couple of years when Honda introduces a new model I have every reason to buy it. Currently, my wife drives an Accord EX I4 95 with over 200K miles on it. It runs like crazy from San Jose to Westminster back and forth. It is much better than the Camry she bought years ago that I had to sell it at 95K miles.

    VIVA LE HONDA !!!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "its attention to details, customers' comfort and satisfaction are far more sophisticated and absolutely much more superior than Toyota, Mazda, Mitsubishi and even BMW or Mercedes"

    Whoaa! Now that's a stretch, unless you are a marketing executive at Honda. Anyway your entitled to your own personal opinion which just happens to be not shared by most people on this planet.
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    My relatives and friends bought expensive Mercedez and BMW models and they paid dearly for repair and maintenance costs after 100K miles. Those auto manufacturers are not Kings any more in auto industry.
  • dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    Even though I don't completely agree with your opinions, I like to see a die hard Honda fan every now and then.

    Live on, viet!
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    I have maintained my Honda Accords real good. Back in 1992, my Honda 1986 civic 1.3 liter with 120K+ miles still ran like new on the highway. When I first bought it it ran almost all night with 4 people on it from North to South California of over 700 miles continuously without problems. While my rented brand-new Dodge Stratus became so exhausted with all lights on dashboard turning on after only 350- mile trip.

    My friends in back East gets an Accord with 300K miles and it still runs even though the car body is getting rusted by salt on the roads during winters. However, my son's Accord V6 EX 2003 just got recalled for inspection for potential problem on the second gear of transmission.

    Sorry, I have to say Honda's engineers are very intelligent and innovated. I hate the gear box of Nissan and Mitsubishi. The transmission of the Mitsubishi Eclipse and Galant sometimes slip or do not work properly even their engines are very strong.

    I expect the Accord hybrid (HAH) still carries same quality like my other Hondas. They are worth every single penny I put out. The HAH pleases me with its decent MPG, 255 HP and its roominess. As somebody put it: "The HAH perfectly suits with college educated, married men/ women with household income of 100K or more...and bald".
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    IMO, Honda should have differentiated Accord Hybrid by giving it the looks of its mechanical twin (Honda Inspire) in Japan to differentiate it more from regular Accord while retaining a mainstream appearance.

    image

    Those rims look identical to HAH’s. Honda is expected to release HAH in Japan also, but I doubt it will be “Accord”, instead this “Inspire”, since Honda doesn’t offer V6 in Japanese Accord.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That is a slight improvement, IMO.

    -juice
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    This page shows a good comparison chart for Prius/Civic/HAH:

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/09/under_the_hood_.html
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I want and will most likely buy a hybrid, wonder if thats put me in the 68 % group. Texas is a long way from Canada but in any event its good to know if someone wants the fastest Accord out there they want a hybrid - snip - Mention hybrid and eyes begin to glaze over. It's not a sexy subject, nor is it one that is generally well understood, which probably accounts for the difference between those who say they would consider a hybrid (68 per cent of all buyers) and those who actually buy one. It is, however, an important technology as it represents the bridge between today and the fuel cell age of tomorrow. http://tinyurl.com/425wh
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    I test drove a Civic hybrid 2005 today to have more feedback in Honda hybrid technology. It was slow like a little toy with 93HP. Forget about Civic hybrid. My EX V6 Accord 2002 is much faster. And the Accord hybrid 2005 should be a "rocket" (as Honda Inc. put it)and a must-buy.
  • nowakj66nowakj66 Member Posts: 709
    I noticed in looking in the brochure two differences between the HAH and the gas powered Accords that I was hoping someone could explain.

    First, atop the XM radio bump on the rear of the roof is a mast antenna. Is this for XM or FM radio? NAV? or what?

    Second, the center bin on the dash console seems to be half the size as in other accords. This is just ahead of the shifter - a place that I typically store CDs. On my 2003 EX-L, you push the door and it rolls back a la garage door. Why the change?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The antenna is probably the standard antenna which is embedded in the rear glass in a regular Accord. It may have an integrated XM antenna also. This may be to avoid some kind of interference that may result from the IMA unit sitting behind the back seat.

    The storage bin is different. Perhaps, just a change, or is it that the thing has a cassette player (I don’t see a mention of it, though)?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    There are some good exterior and interior picture of the HAH posted on the Temple of VTEC website.

    Discussion says it looks like the other Accords so that old farts (sadly me) will like it. I would rather have a more distinguishing style and a 6-speed.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote"it was slow like a little toy"-end quote

    You actually expected a Civic Hybrid, with the intent of achieving max MPG, to drive like a hot-rod? If you want a hot-rod, you aren't interested in the benefits of Honda's Hybrid Technology....:)

    Even with the 2005 HAH having high HP and torque ratings, the mileage is still only 33 MPG combined.

    Technology has not reached us that will allow "hot rod" and "high MPG hybrid" to be used in the same sentence.....
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    It appears the problem is solved because apparently "Elvis has left the building" and Elvis was usually always invoved in the non-constructive bickering.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "Technology has not reached us that will allow "hot rod" and "high MPG hybrid" to be used in the same sentence....."

    What bothers me about the HAH is that it is not avalable with manual. A manual transmission would improve both the MPG and perfomance of the vehicle(the two reasons why an HAH exists).

    I guess the accountants at Honda felt the margins would not justify having a choice of transmissions.
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