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Hybrid Honda Accord

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"What bothers me about the HAH is that it is not avalable with manual."-end quote

    Not surprising to me. The Prius is not avail with manual either. These cars are targeting a demographic of people who, FOR THE MOST PART (this is a generalization, but a true one) have moved past the age in which they want to "mess with" a manual tranny for their family car.

    Most people, by the age of 35 and making more than $100,000 a year are too busy and too bustling to worry about shifting gears. How can you shift, talk on the phone, eat your lunch, AND have a free hand for the wheel? LOL....
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    "How can you shift, talk on the phone, eat your lunch, AND have a free hand.

    I will do all those things plus drink coffee and search through a map for the sake of extra mileage ,performance and fun(driving automatics for me is like driving on snooze mode) :b
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    I meant the Civic hybrid was slow compared to my other Accords. However, it is a top car and a must buy in the economy class. I like it better than the Toyota Prius.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote" will do all those things plus drink coffee and search through a map for the sake of extra mileage ,performance and fun(driving automatics for me is like driving on snooze mode) :b "-end quote

    You are a rare bird and a dying breed, amigo .... :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Actually there are some old guys that still like to shift, I being one I know of :)

    Actually, I talk very little on the phone in the car. Very rarely eat lunch in the car. I am over 35 and over 100K and want a manual shift that doesn't look like the SRT-4 or the STI. What demographics exist for me?

    I have been driving manual shift cars for over 40 years and getting a 5 or 6 speed maunal shift is at the very top of my priority list on a new car purchase.

    I like the Prius, except that it is a little slow and I like the HAH except for its stoggy fuddy-duddy looks. The biggest problem with both is that they don't offer a manual shift option.

    YMMV,

    MidCow (The Car Nut)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Exactly my view. Nice to know there is another rare bird out there.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    One more here that has manual tranny as the number one priority in a new car.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have fond memories of manual shifting. Gave you a sense of actually driving the car. I got away from it when I started buying full size domestic PU trucks. I do have the bug for a new car. I would like the Passat TDI in a Manual. I may go for the Jetta wagon TDI with manual. Then I will get real world high fuel mileage.

    Unless of course Honda gets their act together and imports that great diesel Accord they build.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I too do not mind the shift, although I had my last MT car 15 years ago before the manual tranny HCH I bought in July.

    But I can assure you if we had the data on how few of the overall total sales of Civic Hyrbids were manuals I'd bet it would be less than 20%.

    Honda does their research - if they felt there was a profitable market in that demographic for MT HAH, they would have one....they have vast experience in larger MT cars in their Acura lineup.....
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Remember, in $25-35K price class Honda has:
    RSX (Type-S is offered with 6-speed manual transmission only)
    TSX
    Accord V6 (Coupe only)
    TL

    That have 6-speed manual transmission as an option, in a market where 85-90% of buyers prefer automatic transmission.

    If it made sense from marketing point of view, it wouldn’t take much for Honda to have HAH share the 6-speed manual transmission with Accord V6. And it could happen! After all, 6MT could provide more bragging rights in terms of performance as well as (even) better fuel economy.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    A manual HAH would have been guaranteed if the participants of this message board had participated in a Honda Hybrid marketing profile survey. A shame we were not asked!
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Yes, I too use to love the thrill of goin thru the gears but because the U.S.A. has seen fit to retire trains (mass transit) in favor of a glut of semi trucks clogging our freeways which have turned our EXPRESS (ha!ha!)WAYS into giant parking lots....well, I just got tired of foot-leg & knee fatiuge from the constant stop&go that was a no-win aggrevation that only an automatic gave relief from. For you hardliners ...Go for it. You'll eventually wise up. Culliganman
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Traffic is a pain no matter what transmission. The transmission is not the problem it is the traffic.

    Traffic is not a given either. I escaped to SD from the DC area 10 years ago. No traffic here. It has been years since I waited for more than 1 cycle at a stop light. My commute is less than 5 minutes - if I walk. Added bonus is no car inspections of any kind, no property tax on cars, speed limit is 75 on the highways and 65 on 2 lane roads (1 lane in each direction).

    There would be absolutely no reason for me to pay more for a less efficient, less fun, less controlable transmission. A 4-cyl Accord hybrid with close to 200 hp and a manual tranny would be the hybrid I would prefer, and it would probably give the heavier, automatic V-6 a run for it's money in acceleration. All this while delivering better mpg at a lower cost.
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    Not lower cost. I bet a hybrid 4 cylinder would cost more than an LXV6.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    I suppose it is possible, but would it cost more than an EX V6 or a Hybrid V6?

    BTW, make that a 4-cyl hybrid WAGON.
  • 307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    Low emission diesels are the answer. Wait 2 years and problem solved less expensively and less complicatedly.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    >Low emission diesels are the answer. Wait
    >2 years and problem solved less expensively
    >and less complicatedly.

    I guess I missed something is there going to be a diesel version of the Accord Hybrid?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I bet a hybrid 4 cylinder would cost more than an LXV6

    So does an Accord EX-L (EX-L: $24,500; LXV6: $23,800). This was true back in Fall 1997 when I purchased my 1998 Accord (EX-L: $23,100; LXV6: $22,300).

    But if Honda goes with Accord LX as a base, it should be possible to place Accord Hybrid (four cylinder) at about the same price as the LXV6 and both will have comparable features.

    V6 seems to come at a premium of about $3K.
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    No way. Each upper trim level is about $2000 to $3000 more. I am falling in love with the Honda Accord Hybrid but the price is too high if including the NAV. This will be my 9th Honda.
  • ohiocarguyohiocarguy Member Posts: 28
    For those who are interested, TheCarConnection.com has an article about the Honda Accord Hybrid:

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7640&sid=27- - 4&n=157

    OhioCarGuy
  • gatrhumpygatrhumpy Member Posts: 126
    That was a nice article, but the 0-60 times that they say are waaaaaaaaaaaay off. The Accord hybrid will clock 0-60 MPH at a flat 6.0 or 6.1 seconds, while my EX V6 will do 0-60 MPH in about 6.5 seconds. The hybrid is an interesting car, and I cannot wait to test drive one in December.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Blame it on Honda. The company is far too conservative in quoting the 0-60 time for Accord V6 itself (8.0s). But then, most people don’t go for all out drag racing anyway so 8.0s (Accord V6) and 7.5s (Accord Hybrid) may be quoted as a more realistic “everyday” run. In magazine runs, I anticipate HAH running 0-60 in about 6.5s, more often than not.
  • gatrhumpygatrhumpy Member Posts: 126
    I agree. The new Hybrid may be even quicker than that. All that I know is that I can't wait to test drive the hybrid.
  • edgar52edgar52 Member Posts: 1
    Toyota's Synergy system is definitely more advance than IMA and is producing more power than IMA. Edmunds.com should do more homework before providing such bias statement.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    to which false statement are you referring?
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Edgar52:

    Edmunds.com should do more homework before providing such bias statement.

    ___What biased statement? And if more power from HSD vs. IMA was relevant, how come the only Hybrid in Toyota’s stable is the slowest of all cars they sell here in the states vs. the AH which will be the fastest?

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    Edgar,

    As somebody who doesn't own a honda and doesn't plan to buy the Accord Hybrid in any forseable future time frame, I trust my judgement is biased toward the unbiased and I've to seriously wonder if you are not doing the "grapes are sour" routine. I wonder how many people even remember that story from their childhood.

    ksso
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    edgar52,

    I see you just joined the forum and this is your first post. First Welcome!

    If you will please review the current and archived threads you will find there has already been a lot of discussion on the subject.

    Toyota's current hybrid system is the HSD; the synergy sytem was used in thier previous generation systems. The HSD is a "full hybrid" system which has a lot of merit compared to the "mild" hybrid system of the HAH which uses an IMA to assist the ICE.

    That being said the implmentation of the HSD in the Prius , which is fully functional, is not performance oriented at all. A standard metric of performance, 0-60 mph accleration time, is very slow for the Prius in the range of 11.5 to 10.2 seconds. It is the almost the slowest Toyota vehicle in Toyota's line-up. The primary goal of the Prius was to be a live beta proof-of-concept of the HSD system; secondarily low emissions and high mileage. It was a success and is now being sold to Ford and is being applied to other vehicles in the Toyota line. Even the HSD system has its limitations , it is good for city driving and "surburban driving", a new term coined by one of the threaders meaning 35-50 mph range; not quite city and not quite highway. But the highway mileage of the Prius suffers a key reason is because one of the generators is always drawing power from the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine, normal motor in non-hybrid cars) even when the battery is fully charged. This is not efficient becuase there is ALWAYS a conversion loss when energy is changed from one form to another.

    The IMAs hybrid implementation on the otherhand is very good on the highway. The HAH with IMA and VCM will achieve better performance (0.5 seconds better 0-60 mph than the non hybrid V6 Accord automatic) and better mileage ( 30/37 versus 21/30).

    Power of the Honda Hbrid Accord will be in the range 6.5-6.0 seconds for 0-60 mph acceleration.

    The is phenomally better than the Prius acceleration, worst case( best Prius to worst HAH)= 3.7 seconds better to best case ( worst Prius to best HAH) =5.2 seconds.

    I don't think Edmunds made a mistake is their statement; It might have been you interpretation or bias in reading the statement. Edmunds was not making a theoretical comparison between HSD and IMA , but rather a comparison of the practical application in two vehicles : Prius versus HAH.

    Again welcome to Edmunds forumms.

    YMMV,
    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/honda/accord/100452039/roadtestar- ticle.html?articleId=103272&tid=edmunds.h..wkedmunds.firstdri- ve.1g.*

    Edmunds says: ...the new Accord Hybrid's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system is designed to be the most powerful hybrid system ever built. "

    Eat you hearts out Prius lovers!

    YMMV,
    MidCow
  • mcardlemcardle Member Posts: 36
    Forgive me if this has been asked/ answered recently... went back through ~100 posts and didn't see it.

    Honda's website shows an MSRP for a top of the line Accord (gas) as $28,700, with $500 delivery. Any idea of where they Hybrid will show up? Edmunds seems to think it will be $3,000 - $4,000 higher... thoughts?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Honda hasn't announced pricing yet, but it is expected to be about $30K. At that price, it would be a little of $3K higher.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Cost estimated to be $30,000 without NAV, NAV $2,000 more. Loaded with everything except sunroof. Also has VCM (variable cylinder Management), electric steering, two compressor AC (ICE and electric: both for real cold, electric when ICE is stopped)) and active noise cancellation. 5-speed automatic sedan.

    The car is expected to sell at MSRP compared to Accord ICE V6 usually being discounted close to invoice, hence the $4,000 difference; not MSRP to MSRP but consumer cost.

    Expected to be in show room in December 2005.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    First, I agree with Edmunds.com statement that HAH is the most powerful hybrid ever bulit. The key word is powerful. Where is that power coming from? Mostly from the gasoline engine. For every horsepower from the assisting electric motor, the gas engine provide 15 horsepower. It shows that IMA dual powertrain tend to go out of balance(1:15) as they get larger and more powerful.

    How long will HAH hold "the most powerful hybrid" title? Until March 2005. Highlander Hybrid or Lexus RX400H HSD powertrain with 270 horsepower will be the most powerful hybrid then.
    Just like the Prius, HH and 400H will have balance(1:1 hp) gas and electric powertrain. It will be a proof that HSD design is flexible and scale well as rise in power and size.

    "implmentation of the HSD in the Prius .... is not performance oriented at all."

    Clearly. Prius used 1.5 liter Atkinson cycle engine that produce 76 horsepower. If Prius was not powered by HSD, it will need 2.0+ liter Otto cycle 145+ horsepower gas engine to get the same performance(See Toyota Allion spec). Note that HSD can couple with Otto cycle engine as well as Diesel engine. Prius GT already shown us 0-60 in 8.7 sec with 1.5 liter Otto cycle engine. The bottom line is that, more powerful ICE and electric motors can make HSD a power house.

    "The primary goal of the Prius was to be a live beta proof-of-concept of the HSD system"

    Interesting. The first mass produced Prius sold in 1997 is a 4 door sedan. At that time, Honda's IMA Insight 2 seater looks more like a concept car to me.

    "Even the HSD system has its limitations , it is good for city driving.... the highway mileage of the Prius suffers a key reason is because one of the generators is always drawing power from the ICE..."

    Let me ask you something about HSD. In city driving, does HSD use more electric or ICE? How about on highway? For IMA, Insight gets 57mpg city and 56mpg highway. HAH get 30mpg city and 37mpg highway. Why HAH city is lower than highway?

    "one of the generators is always drawing power from the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine, normal motor in non-hybrid cars) even when the battery is fully charged."

    HSD is a full hybrid. It can power the wheel with both ICE and electric power even on the highway. The battery is never fully charged to protect it from overcharging. HSD also reserve 20% for steep downhill situations.

    Dennis
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    How long will HAH hold "the most powerful hybrid" title? Until March 2005. Highlander Hybrid or Lexus RX400H HSD powertrain with 270 horsepower will be the most powerful hybrid then.

    The horsepower might be more, but the HAH will be much faster. I and most others measure performance by standard metrics of 0-60 mph time and time to go 1/4 mile.

    Interesting. The first mass produced Prius sold in 1997 is a 4 door sedan.

    The synergy system was renamed to HSD with the introduction of the 2004 Prius. The HSD is a Beta, the Synergy an Alpha. Very few even knew about the generation 1 Prius from 1997-2003 and Toyota sold very few.

    For IMA, Insight gets 57mpg city and 56mpg highway.

    Actually, I tend to ignore the CVT Insight, the 5-speed manual is 60/66. The 57/56 CVT mileage points out the inefficiencies of an automatic, even a CVT automatic, rather than the inefficiencies of IMA.

    HSD is a full hybrid. It can power the wheel with both ICE and electric power even on the highway. The battery is never fully charged to protect it from overcharging. HSD also reserve 20% for steep downhill situations.

    This is a waste of energy period, the generator always is running converting ICE energy to electrical; there is always a conversion loss Whether the battery is never fully charged or not and a 20% reserve for downhill are bunny trails and have nothing to do with explaining the inefficiency of converting ICE energy to electrical to either (1) charge a battery that doesn't need to be charged, (2) drive the other electric motor directly that isn't need or (3) charging the atmosphere; i.e. not used ,completely wasted.

    This is a flaw in the HSD design. If energy is not needed why run the generator? Except to lower the highway mileage.

    YMMV,
    MidCow

    P.S.- What kind of car do you currently drive? Just curious, because I know you love and embrace the Prius technology.
  • vietviet Member Posts: 847
    Hi Midcow,

    Thanks for your feedback. You have demonstrated your great knowledge and experience on cars, HAH and hybrid technology.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess by that logic, the IMA in the Insight and HCH was the Alpha, and the IMA in the HAH will be a Beta. Or maybe it too is an Alpha, because it's a different setup than the Insight and HCH, with a V6 and the variable cylinders feature--first time this combination has been used in a vehicle.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    IMA is not tied to VCM (or V6 in general). Honda could use this third generation of IMA in next Civic Hybrid, or perhaps come out with fourth.

    Going from “alpha” (Insight) to “beta” (Civic), Honda emphasized on more compact and lighter package with slightly more power. And with the “gamma”, Honda has laid little emphasis on power increase and more on electric motor taking over some duty from the ICE.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, I'll buy HAH being the "gamma" for IMA ("GA" in software parlance), but by the same logic I'd have to consider the current-gen Prius to be "GA" also.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Okay.

    Having said that, in attempt to get the focus back on the subject line...
    Is Edmunds’ incorrectly stating that the HAH is the most powerful hybrid they have tested?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    robertsmx,

    This issue I think is around the statement in the Edmund HAH First Drive review:

    "While the Big H's main competitor has focused on refining its highly efficient but relatively low-performance synergy drive system in the Toyota Prius, the new Accord Hybrid's Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) system is designed to be the most powerful hybrid system ever built."

    There is some difference in opinion of what is meant by the word powerful .

    If you mean normal performance measurements of 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile times, then the HAH is the most powerful hybrid ever built. Honda is usually conservative in their ratings and is saying the combined HP is 255 with only 15 hp from the IMA.

    However, if you look only at horsepower then the upcoming Lexus RX400h will have higher horsepower , current estimate 270 hp, and very good performance for a SUV ( 0-60 mph in under 8 seconds, probably just barely under like 7.9). But it will still pale in comparison to the HAH for acceleration, handling, stopping, etc.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • cogukcoguk Member Posts: 7
    Hey does anyone know if you can pre-order one of these cars? They're meant to be coming out soon, right ... so why can't I find anywhere that is offering a pre-order option??
    Thanks
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    You might search up at the top of this forum. One person said he pre-ordered a Hybrid Accord. However, I haven't seen anything official from Honda. However, a local Houston dealer that I regularly communicate with has started talking about the Accord Hybrid. I think you best bet at this time, might be to go down to the Honda dealer you like best and put down a deposit and get on a list. Good luck

    And by the way I noticed you are new to the Edmunds forum and this was your first post, WELCOME

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I think the issue is with the thinking that hybrid power means electric components only. And they couldn’t be further from the truth. In the end, power delivered by the “hybrid drive train” is all that can be compared. So, I don’t see an issue in Edmunds’ comment that somebody here did.

    I agree, Accord hybrid is going to be the benchmark to measure performance of hybrid vehicles, at least for couple of years. Besides, many aren’t aware here that IMA isn’t necessarily a 10-15 HP system. Honda has showcased concepts with up to 150 HP coming from electric motors (150 HP in Euro Accord Hybrid concept; 100 HP in Dual Note Concept and 60 HP in RDX concept).
  • dogface5dogface5 Member Posts: 87
    I for one think that the "power" of a hybrid should not be judged just by the HP, but rather the difference in HP/torque achieved by the addition of an electric motor. As of now, the difference in HAH is 15 hp, whereas it will be around 30-40hp for HH and RX400h. Someone here said that the HAH will outperform the HH and RX400h. What do you expect? You are comparing apples and oranges. I would never expect a V6 SUV (that is AWD if I might add) to best a V6 sedan. Rumors are that Toyota is going to redesign the Camry in couple of years when it will have 3.5L V6. 3.5L V6 + Full Hybrid is going to be more powerful than HAH.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I for one think that the "power" of a hybrid should not be judged just by the HP, but rather the difference in HP/torque achieved by the addition of an electric motor.

    Why?

    You would be correct, if we were comparing Electric Vehicles. The premise of hybrid drivetrain surrounds two powertrains combining to provide power to the wheels.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "If energy is not needed why run the generator?"

    Because it is needed. It is needed for reasons that you have not realized. Since Edmunds' article compared HAH with Prius, I'll use Prius as an example to explain why generating electricity has useful reasons behind it. Therefore, it is not a waste as Midcow claimed.

    You already know that Prius has an ICE with only 82lbs-ft max torque. HSD Prius does not have multi-gear transmission unlike automatic or manual. The main electric motor(MG2) can output 295lbs-ft max torque. Power Split Device is basically a planetary gearset which is always engaged and never need to shift gears.

    How does Prius multiply ICE torque and thrust without shifting a gear? Simple! Convert ICE horsepower into electricity and output 295lbs-ft of torque through 50kW MG2! This is the very basic principle why a full hybrid will always rely on balancing the usage between gas engine and electric motor and get away without ever shifting a gear. For HAH, ICE and electric motor power must pass through traditional multi-gear transmission to output desire thrust to the wheel.

    You did not answer my previous questions regarding HSD city and highway. HSD will use more electricity and less gas engine during city driving. That's why it got higher EPA city than EPA highway, even though there are more frequent electricity generation. Why? Generator is over 95% efficient and there simply isn't much air drag unlike on highway. Think about it. The drag that 60mph highway speed create is about 15hp. Maximum energy loss in Prius due to electric generator is about 4hp.

    Dennis

    P.S: We have Celica, Maxima, Civic and MDX. You can guess which drivetrain must power my next car.
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Honda could use this third generation of IMA in next Civic Hybrid, or perhaps come out with fourth."

    I know 3rd gen IMA improved about 12% of it's 10kW electric motor and enhanced electric generation efficiency. What else? Does hybrid A/C count as subset of 3rd gen IMA as well?

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "There is some difference in opinion of what is meant by the word powerful "

    pow·er·ful (adj) Having or capable of exerting power.

    You can't have opinion on the defination. HH and 400H will be more powerful than HAH. When comes to performance, I agree that HAH will probably do better because it was designed as sports sedan. HH and 400H SUVs can also do things that HAH can not as well. Nothing is stopping Toyota from putting 270hp HSD powerhouse into Camry Hybrid.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I think the issue is with the thinking that hybrid power means electric components only."

    Hybrid power is combination of both electric and ICE power. It is not just only electric power nor gas ICE power. They ought to be balanced.

    "IMA isn’t necessarily a 10-15 HP system. Honda has showcased concepts with up to 150 HP coming from electric motors (150 HP in Euro Accord Hybrid concept; 100 HP in Dual Note Concept and 60 HP in RDX concept)."

    By looking at the 3rd gen IMA, electric power to ICE ratio is going down. Not up. Concept is nice to have but what a company is being offered to the public is a stronger statement. For example, Mitsubishi also showed Eclipse hybrid concept with electric 200hp boost.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "I for one think that the "power" of a hybrid should not be judged just by the HP, but rather the difference in HP/torque achieved by the addition of an electric motor. "

    I see your point. The extra power net gain benefit that hybrid brings to the table. You also have to look when that surge of power deliver occurs. For HSD, it is strongest when passing at speed between 30mph and 70mph. There are other things such as fuel economy and lower emission to look for as well. HAH would be rated for City 29mpg/ Highway 33mpg if it does not have VCM(not IMA exclusive feature). We all know HAH does not improve CARB emission rating from EX-V6. Hey but it has 15hp more at peak.

    Dennis
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