Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??

andre1969 · March 2004

for acceleration are as follows...
2.7 V-6: 0-60 in 10.7 seconds (maybe as fast as a Taurus with the Vulcan? Any way you look at it though, not good!)
3.5 V-6: 0-60 in 8.5 seconds (the current Intrepid SXT and 300M are around 7.8, and I think the Intrepid ES is around 8-8.2)
5.7 Hemi V-8: 0-60 in 6.3-7 seconds, depending on who you want to believe. Considering it's pulling 7-7.5 in the Durango though, 6.3 is plausible. So basically, I guess the Hemi would be into V-6 Accord/Altima territory.

ateixeira · March 2004

But the gas mileage will be about 3mpg worse.

-juice

seminole_kev · March 2004

yeah, but which one would be getting 3 MPG less? ;-)

(Accord V6's don't exactly wow me with the fuel economy either)

6thbeatle · March 2004

the dodge magnum interior sucks. too bad, i was going to buy a black one.

mirth · March 2004

...the Accord and Altimas aren't wagons.

I like the Magnum, but I'm still mystified why there isn't a sedan version to replace the Intrepid. Although wagons are coming back, I think they're missing out on a lot of customers there.

badtoy · March 2004

from the rear -- it's the grille that turns me off.

6thbeatle · March 2004

i like that big grill-- perfect for roadkill. yummmmm!

andre1969 · March 2004

it might get a bit worse fuel mileage, but the Altima is a guzzler. Last time I checked, the Altima with an automatic was EPA-rated at 19/26, and required an premium fuel. Just to put it in perspective, the old '94-96 Impala SS, which weighed about a half-ton more than an Altima, was EPA-rated at 17/26!

With a Hemi, the Magnum and 300 have rear ends around 2.80:1. Now I don't know what ratios the tranny gears have, but I'd guess 3rd would be 1:1, with 4th and 5th being overdrive gears, like they are with the Accord 5-speed automatic. I'm sure the Hemi cars will turn some lazy enough revs to score some decent EPA highway figures.

sphinx99 · March 2004

That's a very plain looking wagon. They should sell it to Saturn and call it the Saturn Magnum.

Or maybe the Saturn Pellet Gun.

andre1969 · March 2004

and in the article they mentioned that Chrysler estimated fuel economy at 17 city and 24-25 highway for the Hemi. Which is about what "true" full-sized cars have been getting ever since Ford and GM started putting overdrive trannies in them back in the early 80's.

So, no real fuel economy improvements, but then again, no stock '83 Grand Marquis is going to do 0-60 in under 7 seconds, either! ;-)

Sphinx, they'd have to widen the body gaps on the Magnum by about 4-5 times, slap them on unevenly, and toss on a wanna-be Subaru front-end. THEN, they could sell it as a Saturn! ;-)

ateixeira · March 2004

They'd have to move the gauges to the middle so it felt strange.

-juice

nippononly · March 2004

Then they'd have to remove the hemi and sub in a lower power pushrod to bring the price down, then leave it on the market for 15 years with no updates.

andre1969 · March 2004

they could always take the easy way out and stuff in a Honda engine! ;-)

seminole_kev · March 2004

(spits coffee out onto monitor!) Good one Andre! Yer' killin' me!

evbo · March 2004

Because hybrids don't really deliver on improved fuel economy for most drivers, this technology will not put the Japanese ahead of the Americans. The Nissan Titan and other full size Japanese offerings might propel them past the old USA.

I recommend reading "Common Sense Not Required" (available at Amazon) to get a clear understanding of the truths and myths about hybrid technology.

drfill · March 2004

I wonder what American wrote this book on the vertues of the feul-cell, and the OHV engine!

DrFill

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Because hybrids don't really deliver on improved fuel economy for most drivers, this technology will not put the Japanese ahead of the Americans"

How did you come up with that conclusion? Common sense isn't too common.

Dennis

badtoy · March 2004

contradict Mr. Chin's conclusion, it ignores the point (as do most discussions about hybrids) that they are also SULEV vehicles -- (Super Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicles). They're environmentally friendly in two very important ways, and unllike electric cars, they do not use high-polluting electrical generating plants to recharge their batteries -- they use the energy from the vehicle itself.

evbo · March 2004

Consumer Reports Fuel economy testing shows overall fuel economy for the VW Golf TDI to be the same as Prius at overall 41 mpg. The Toyota Echo has an overall rating of 38. And the Civic Hybrid tests at 36mpg. On the antiquated EPA mileage tests, hybrids do outstanding. But this is not how most people really drive (there are a few who do). The Prius does pollute less than the diesel powered Golf, because diesels are stinkier than gas engines.

Consider this: The Prius is equipped with low rolling resistance tires, the Echo is not. Low rolling resistance tires improve fuel economy by as much as 20 percent. Plus the aerodynamics is better on the prius too. The hybrid weighs 700 lbs more than a non-hybrid. Common sense says it takes more energy to propel it. Brake regeneration and low rolling resistance tires reduces this energy and on the EPA tests reduces it a lot. But for most drivers, it barely matches a non-hybrid.

Why doesn't Toyota offer an Echo with low rolling resistance tires? Then the high-tech of the Prius wouldn't be so high tech.

Evan Boberg

ateixeira · March 2004

antiquated EPA mileage tests

Perhaps, but they actually modified their test for hybrids, so it's fairly new in that case.

Prius is a lot more refined than the Echo, they don't compare directly. By the time you added all that weight to the Echo to improve it, it wouldn't be such an economy champ.

Also, Prius is classified as a mid-size, Echo is a compact.

-juice

logic1 · March 2004

in the press where Prius owners note their observed gas mileage is no where near what the epa figures suggest it should be.

The problem with hybrids systems is they were developed in response to government fiat - the Japanese Government - and not in response to what the market wants.

In order to fully utilize the technology as it exists today, drivers have to modify driving habits they logically developed to meet their lifestyle and driving conditions. Getting drivers to react irrationally to the conditions around them may not be a problem in Japan where conforming to authority is expected. It is a problem here.

Ironically, - from the point of view of this topic string anyway - some of the articles suggest pick up truck drivers are more apt to get the most out of their hybrids as their driving needs conform better to the technology. Toyota has no edge in hybrid pick up trucks.

Daimler and GM both will have hybrid trucks on the market in the next few months.

Finally, Badtoy, it is wrong to assume any car is green. Even when fuel cells using bio derived hydrogen arrive on the scene, personal vehicles will need environmentally unfriendly roads, will use components produced with energy intensive methods, and, if imported, will come on large, totally unregulated ships that cause more pollution than thousands of cars. The freighters that crowd Long Beach Harbor are the single largest source of particulate air pollution in the Los Angeles basin.

john1701a · March 2004

> Low rolling resistance tires improve fuel economy
> by as much as 20 percent.

That is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY not true in any way shape or form.

Image if it was though... hmm? SUVs could get around the required 1.5 MPG increase (by 2007) with the greatest of ease, just by changing the tires.

In reality, LRR tires only offer a very minor increase. For CLASSIC Prius wners, that works out to be about 2 MPG.

And since the 2004 Prius doesn't even have LRR tires (they are just the standard type), your claims are completely irrelevant.

Also, MPG data is skewed heavily due to WINTER. In reality, the 2004 Prius gets much higher MPG than the WINTER-ONLY numbers that are available. Wait until the warm weather arrives. That will add another 5 MPG to the results.

JOHN

nippononly · March 2004

I would like to see evidence that Prius would weigh 2200 pounds without HSD installed ("The hybrid weighs 700 lbs more than a non-hybrid."). You would have to put in a regular transmission, and this is a fairly large car. It is larger than the 2500-pound corolla. It is about the same size as the 2800-pound Matrix.

logic has a good point though - we are reaching the point of diminishing returns with car clean-up. One airline flight from San Francisco to New York consumes as much energy as all the Prius on the road do in a day, not to mention being far far dirtier. And there are like five daily flights from United Airlines alone! Power generation from coal and natural gas-burning plants are worth several hundred thousand cars in terms of emissions, especially of CO2. And how many of those do we have with our hugely electricity-wasteful society?

evbo · March 2004

Correct, but now you say you are willing to sacrifice saving the planet for a more refined ride?

I worked for an automaker doing hybrid research, and I can tell you they no longer call the Prius tires LRR, but they are.

Consider this: All automakers started doing research into hybrid vehicles about 1990. The US government started to fund this research in 1993 with the PNGV. Hybrid components have been around a long time. The batteries, electric motors, generators and computer controls are all 20 year old technology or more. Why are only two automakers selling them to the public? Are these two smarter than Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Daimler, VW, Audi, Volvo, Saab, Fiat, The Big three and numerous others I forgot about? And if this technology is so grand, why has Toyota not added it to other models until next year assuming they actually do it (the first Prius was sold in 1997, it would follow that it would be quickly added to other models if it was so great!)? Does this make sense? Oh, all these other makers roll out hybrids at the shows (they want ot look green too!), but then you still can't buy anything. Maybe hybrids are just a fraud and only two automakers are willing to dupe us to improve their "green" image as they roll out even larger SUVs.

My friends that own the Honda Insight have been getting about 51-53 mpg for the 30k miles they've driven them, which they are pleased with. Throw away the batteries and electric motor on an Insight and it weighs 1300 lbs. A 1300 lb car would get 55 mpg, better than the Insight. Except it would only test at about 58 on the EPA test, not over 60 like the Insight.

You can believe me, or write me off as some kook. Most people when they've been scammed, don't want to believe it. I'll give Toyota credit, at least they give you a few months to think about it (the waiting time to get a Prius), so not too many people get scammed. And the wait makes you really happy when you finally get it.

john1701a · March 2004

> Why are only two automakers selling them to the public?

Toyota is the only large automaker reporting massive profits. So they can easily afford the retool investment required for hybrids.

Honda is not just an automotive company. They have manufacter a ton of non-automotive products, which have been providing a wealth of profit for them. So they can easily afford hybrids too.

GM & Ford are reporting MASSIVE losses, and there is no salvation in sight anytime soon. So a large development effort is a financially poor decision right now.

In short, GM & Ford are currently not in a good business position to compete.

JOHN

john1701a · March 2004

> if this technology is so grand, why has Toyota not added
> it to other models until next year

Every 3 years, there has been a major upgrade to the hybrid technology (an impressive pace considering how slow the automotive industry ususally is). Not waiting for this latest improvement (only 6 months old) simply didn't make any sense.

But now that it is available, new HSD equipped vehicles will be released on a regular basis.

JOHN

ateixeira · March 2004

I didn't say anything like that (sacrificing the planet for a refined ride), please don't put words in my mouth.

I was correcting your errors - about the "antiquated" tests and an unfair comparison between a smaller/cheaper/lighter car and a mid-size Prius.

We should at least compare cars in the same size class, that's what I'm saying.

What next? Comparing bicycles to minivans?

-juice

daysailer · March 2004

to cars a large and massive as the Prius, since I don't WANT a car so large and massive as the Prius. I need an urban commuter that is light, nimble and quick, not to mention economical.

nippononly · March 2004

the tires on the Prius are Bridgestone Potenzas - nuthin special about them. They were also the stock tire on my '97 Subie OBS when I bought it - I guess my mini-Outback had LRR tires then?! Don't think so. :-)

Has anyone removed the hybrid componentry from an Insight to check this 1300-pound weight figure in their "hybrid research"? Remember, it would still have a regular ol' engine (upsized now to compensate for the loss of the hybrid motor) and transmission, not to mention bigger gas tank, etc.

john1701a · March 2004

> the tires on the Prius are Bridgestone Potenzas
> nuthin special about them

Look closer. You'll see that the LRR design has a treadwear rating of only 160, which is dramatically softer than a standard tire.

JOHN

ateixeira · March 2004

Echo basically bombed, FWIW. That's why Toyota created Scion.

-juice

nippononly · March 2004

the '04 non-LRR tires....

:-)

evbo · March 2004

>What next? Comparing bicycles to minivans?

Am I mistaken on the reason to purchase and drive a hybrid? Isn't the motivation to use less gas and pollute less. Or is it to pollute the same and not use more gas in a more refined ride?

And John, the original Prius hit the market in late 1997, and was upgraded in 2003 as a 2004 model. I drove one in 1997. That's only 1 upgrade in 6 years.

ateixeira · March 2004

* HOV lane access in states like VA
* no state sales tax in states like MD
* peak torque at zero rpm and lots of it
* increased range
* ultra-silent at low speeds
* increased fuel efficiency over *similar* cars

Note that you could remove that last one and you'd still have an appealing package.

Let's look at fuel sippers like the Echo:

* DNQ for special HOV lane access
* DNQ for MD tax credit
* no torque at all at any rpm (LOL)
* range pretty good given small tank
* regular noises at idle and low speeds
* average fuel efficiency in its class

-juice

john1701a · March 2004

> That's only 1 upgrade in 6 years.

You are mistaken.

There were several major changes made for the US release... more powerful engine... smaller & lighter, yet more powerful battery-pack... Multi-Display changed to touch-sensitive... a bunch of cosmetic changes... refitting for US specs... and of course, ECU updates.

JOHN

evbo · March 2004

You all enjoy driving your hybrids! And if you really care about saving gas, how about actually carpooling, in addition to buying a hybrid so you don't have too.

I obviously have not been properly indoctrinated. If you are curious to truly understand what hybrid vehicles are, read the book "Common Sense Not Required" (available at Amazon) written by an engineer which holds several patents for hybrid technology.

The rest of you, stop and go!

drfill · March 2004

Of the 2003 Prius, 2004 Prius, the Insight and the Civic Hybrid.

   The "real-world tested" economy tests runs, on an 18 mile city/highway loop in California, with all four cars driven over two days, NOSE TO TAIL, came out as follows:

   Name City/Hwy/Combined

   Insight - 55/67/60
   2004 Prius - 52/54/53
   2003 Prius - 50/54/52
   Civic Hybrid 43/50/46

   MT seemed to like the new Prius as the best car overall, siting superior acceleration times, smoother ride, and the aforementioned mileage advantage compared to the Civic hybrid.

   Basically the test was set up as how far Hybrids have come over the past few years, in room, refinement, economy, and value.

   They also brought out the fact that the Toyotas lost more performance than the Hondas when the batteries lose power.

   About this new Hybrid expert we have here, it is pretty obvious (to most people) that at least Toyota wants to iron out Hybrid Tech on a new nameplate (Prius) before rushing a new powerplant onto established names like Highlander and Camry that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars! I THOUGHT that was pretty clear.

   Now that the Prius is a certified blue-chipper, with no real recalls or other reliability issues that affect many (non-Honda/Toyota) new vehicles, and a track record of quality, now they can DIVIDE AND CONQUER!

   In conclusion, yes, Hybrids ARE so great! Not entirely on there own, but what new abilities they afford cars, trucks, and SUV's.

   This NEW technology will allow us to have 300HP SUV's with 25 MPG, or even more power while delivering the same MPG. Makers could make cars MUCH more fuel efficient, but the cars would lose TOO MUCH HP, which buyers love AND BUY more, so efficiency will rise moderately in the more mainstream vehicles that will employ Hybrid tech.

   Buyers want power and features, no one brags that their car gets 35 MPG! Now if it did it while going to 60 in 6 seconds.....then you have something to tell you friends.

   The future is coming faster than you think.

   And I'll be the first to thank Honda/Toyota for bringing it here while I'm still young enough to enjoy it! As long as it doesn't make stick-shifts obsolete!

   Thank you!

   And to GM, hows that OHV engine coming along? I hear you've actaully toyed with Variable Valve Timing? Congratulations!

   DrFill

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Why are only two automakers selling them to the public?"

Because Supercar project was killed by the Bush administration. The reason? People are buying more SUV but 80MPG Supercar project was geared toward family car type. For detail documentary about Supercar project that Clinton administration jump started, check it out here: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/car/one/chi-startingu- p-special.special

You'll need to register but trust me, it is worth it! There are three parts to it and each part has 6-7 pages.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Throw away the batteries and electric motor on an Insight and it weighs 1300 lbs."

Which common sense did you use to come up with 1300lbs ICE only Insight? I'll suggest another way to do the math. Look at Civic EX auto (2,668 lbs) and Civic Hybrid CVT (2,736 lbs). The difference is only 68 lbs.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"Maybe hybrids are just a fraud"

Woooo stop! Care to explain such a inflammatory statement?

"You can believe me, or write me off as some kook. "

I am not going to write you off as some kook and I don't believe you. I strongly disagree with the statements that you made.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

Because it is how cars should be made. Hybrid Synergy Drive simplifies the whole car mechanically. HSD has advantages of both gasoline and electric worlds. Going further in detail of hybrids, HSD even has the best of both Series and Parallel hybrid designs.

I am not aware of any other mid-size car with about 2,900 lbs weight and equipped with 76 horse power internal combustion engine that can do 0-60 in about 10 seconds. BTW, I just described a 2004 Prius.

Dennis

stevedebi · March 2004

>>I am not aware of any other mid-size car with about 2,900 lbs weight and equipped with 76 horse power internal combustion engine that can do 0-60 in about 10 seconds. BTW, I just described a 2004 Prius.

One has to consider the entire package. I couldn't pack for a weeks vacation with only 16 cu feet of cargo space. The size of the prius is the limiting factor. I will be interested in the real world performance of the larger hybrids when they arrive.

The current size is useful for around town and as a commuter, but not a multi purpose family car that I can use for all conditions.

john1701a · March 2004

Since when must a vehicle fulfill every possible need?

That's the kind of mindset that got us into the monster-sized SUV mess in the first place.

Owning a massive vehicle for the rare chance that you might actually need that much internal space or towing power is quite a waste.

Years ago, people used to have "the other vehicle" for special uses, like vacations. For my family, it was a full-size conversion van. And before that could be afforded, we would just strap a roof-top carrier onto the family car. We didn't try to make excuses like some do now. It was no big deal. It worked just fine.

JOHN

nippononly · March 2004

there's no discussion of hemis here? They are in the title, for goodness' sake! :-)

While very cool, the hemi is actually the exception to the rule right now...a lot of the new GM and Ford entries to arrive in the next year or two are midpack at best in their segments, in terms of power.

From what I have seen, "hemi" has more cachet than "hybrid" does, to their respective audiences (sales are jumping up faster for models with the hemi available, than for hybrids). And neither is well understood by more than half of the people who flock to them and buy them.

PF_Flyer · March 2004

To widen the focus of this topic, I've made a small change to the title. Kept the "hemi" up there for the cachet value, but now the title reflects a more general ICE/hybrid comparison topic.

Carry on!

PF Flyer
Host
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xcel · March 2004

Hi All:

___Pretty good comparison between a Hybrid and non-Hybrid (Civic vs. Civic) in this Popular Mechanics article entitled Hybrid vs. Gas Cross Country here: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2003/7- /hybrid_vs_gas/

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

maxx4me · March 2004

Terrific article Wayne. Thanks for posting it. My hope is that gas prices will go to $3-$4 per gallon in the US, forcing the engineers to get us all in hydrogen powered vehicles within 10 years. Oil has got to go.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

At 80MPH, HCH engine was running at 3,000RPM vs. 4,000 RPM HC. HCH can afford to have 1,000 RPM lower because of the 10KW electric supercharger available on demand. The classic Prius can afford to stay at low 1,500 RPM at 50MPH with the available 50KW electric supercharger. Sorry, I don't have the data for 80MPH.

HCH battery runs out in long uphill conditions. It is the weakness of a mild parallel hybrid design. A full hybrid design like HSD can recharge and climb hills on-the-fly.

Dennis

xcel · March 2004

Hi Maxx4me:

___You really do not want to see $3 and $4.00/gallon fuel. The Domestic car industry is one of the last industries supporting high paying blue collar jobs. They not only support the families of millions of employees in the automotive and sub assembly industries but in turn help keep just about every other industry you can imagine rolling and afloat. Imagine the demand for RVs and that industries demise, Arctic Cat ATVs, Polaris Jet Skis, Mercury outboards, imagine the landscape industry, the home improvement industry, tourism industry, transportation, and that includes trucking It goes on and on. The US can absorb small increases over a period of time but it cannot absorb a large increase in a short period of time. Too many jobs in related and non-related peripheral industries are harmed with that type of price spike and the willowing consumer demand for good and services that follow.

___After reading Usbseawolf2000s link into the Chicago Tribune Super Car article, spikes are sometimes needed to clear the way for advancement but in this case, the Japanese OEMs (Toyota/Honda) already have a huge foothold and they didnt do it all on their own earnings in reality either. There is a self serving industrial machine called MITI in Japan that acts similar to the way Government helped fund the Super Car project or DARPA from the days of the cold war act to advance future weapon(s) development and technology. Whether incentives come from direct tax credits or simply here is your money, develop a car, the Japanese followed through because they were forced too. They have basically no natural resources to speak of and simply had too use their mighty engineering prowess or die with the threat of US Super Car project looming.

___It is almost sad in fact. The average American cannot afford an ~ $32,000 72 mpg Ford Prodigy Supercar (estimated Ford MY 2000 $s) yet Toyota is selling the smaller 04 Prius which achieves even less fuel economy for darn near $26,000 and can not or will not supply enough of the small vehicles to supply demand. We have the technology and it appears as if only Ford (of the domestic manufacturers) is making headway into the vast unknown with PZEV based Focus and Hybrid SUVs in terms of the Escape HEV. I sure hope Ford makes a good one given the PZEV Focus is now starting to shine in reliability circles and the Escape HEV will use the same 2.3 L PZEV motor with just a few intake modifications

___Someone a few pages back was speaking of losing 600 lbs in an Insight w/ the loss of the Hybrid HW. It would be more along the lines of maybe 150 #s I believe but here is the kicker. Drop the Hybrid tech and all aluminum structure so it weighs ~ the same yet costs just $13 - $14,000. It wont do 0 - 60 in 10.5 seconds as it does currently but it would do 0 - 60 in 12.5. It might even still receive 65 mpg on the hwy given the addition of the Civic VXs alternator and balance shafts. Was the additional $5 - $7,000 worth it to the end user for the hybrid tech? I say no since consumers have already voted no with their pocket books on the lightweight 2 seater to meet their needs. I am guesstimating since in all actuality, it has been estimated it costs Honda ~ $30 - $50,000 a piece to produce the Insight given the low volumes and specialty materials used throughout. Knock back the going $20K to $13 - $14K however and you have yourself a reliable 2 seat commuter that would do wonders for our balance of trade and dependence on foreign oil directly.

___We have quite a future ahead of us in regards to technological advances in our own personal transportation but what we dont need is a price spike to $3 and $4.00/gallon over the period of a year or two to kill off the very industry that places the food on the table of quite a large percentage of our countries men and woman before the advances have a chance to bear fruit. Lets just hope Detroits top execs are actually seeing every $0.10 rise in price at the pump on a month over month basis. That alone should scare the bejesus out of them if not for their own well being since $4.00/gallon will not affect their lifestyle (CEOs and other highly paid executives) one iota, but for the sake of their employees, there company, and our country!

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"It is almost sad in fact. The average American cannot afford an ~ $32,000 72 mpg Ford Prodigy Supercar..."

It is sad indeed but obviously not a fact. The "research" that the big 3 did about Hybrids were not true. The prove is here today, when Americans are waiting on the 6-8 months list to get hands on the Prius. Remember, Ford Prodigy(2,387lbs) was much lighter than the Prius due to the use of exotic materials. The acceleration was about the same as the classic Prius(2,800lbs), 0-60 in 12 seconds.

Ford Prodigy, GM Precept, and ESX3 used diesel to achieve 72 MPG to 80 MPG. Since Diesel contains more energy than gasoline, Prius efficiency is up there with those Super Cars. Prius also shines in the extremely low emission department. The fact that Toyota can mass produce Prius at 20K and still make money is what differentiated from the big 3 and the Japanese from my point of view.

Dennis

Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??

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