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Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

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Comments

  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I agree. One of the major factors in my getting a 2004 Nav over the Esc was I just could not imagine looking at the painfully ugly Escalade intrior everyday. Now, the roles are reversed. Even the interior of the new Tahoe is nicer, IMHO, than what the nuts at Lincoln have done with the Nav interior, which reminds me of the Versailles and Granada of the early 70s.

    As for new GM vehicles - they look to be much improved. Especially the now and future vehicles from Saturn. And, yeah, I like the Lucerne. And so do all the reviewers from what I've seen. And Pontiac is getting a hardtop convertible? GM is running rings around Ford and I've been a Ford guy all my life. And the concept Camaro and Challengers are going to give the Mustang something to shoot for. And where oh where is a Mercury Cougar concept?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Well, if the Navs target is now the Denali instead of the Escalade, they're *still* falling far short. Having seen the new Denali, the Navigator just won't compete. On looks or power.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    And this all has what to do with the MKZ/Zephyr?

    Other than the fact that IMHO that interior would have been the second thing to stop me from buying it. The first was the Queen Mary (IMHO) handling.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Some members of the enthusiast press have criticized it but I haven't heard too many owners or serious buyers complain about the Zephyr ride/handling balance. I haven't driven a Fusion or a Zephyr so I can't speak from experience. Akirby, how would you compare your Fusion to your old LS Sport in terms of ride compliance?

    I just hope they didn't go too far in firming up the ride. Chasing the admiration of the enthusiast press is like a dog chasing it's tail. Complaints of "too soft" or "too much body roll" could be replaced by "ride not befitting a near-luxury car."

    One thing is clear. While the MKZ doesn't look much different than a Zephyr, the addition of the 3.5, the new transmission, and the firmer suspension will make it quite a different animal. I look forward to driving one.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "GM is running rings around Ford and I've been a Ford guy all my life."

    Oh, really, George....C'mon... Running rings around Ford? Ford may be on their butt, but GM has no Mustang, their pickups are still hiccups, their engines are state of the art 80's, with pistonslap, BTW, and I haven't seen a GM yet that makes my heart beat faster. Are they competent cars? Sure they are. But running rings? No way. Not IMO.

    There's a reason why I didn't get a Lincoln Sedan. There's also a reason why I didn't get a Cadillac Sedan.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    how would you compare your Fusion to your old LS Sport in terms of ride compliance

    I have the 17" wheels. In normal driving I'd say the Fusion is actually more compliant than the LS sport suspension - soaks up bumps and irregularities a bit better. But it still has that firm, connected feeling which is helped by the firm steering. It can't compete with the LS in hard cornering but it's very good. So tightening up the suspension on the MKZ won't necessarily make it too harsh.

    I forgot the details but the LS engineers said there was something inherent in the suspension geometry that caused the harsher ride with the sport suspension that they simply couldn't fix (of course the tradeoff was superb handling). I don't think the CD3 cars have that problem.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Well, nv, at the risk of upsetting those who think one can't address any question here that doesn't directly relate to the Z:

    The new GM SUVs are superb. They are far better than the Expy/Nav twins. Far better.

    Mustang? Have u seen the Camaro concept? To be produced in 08 or 09 I believe?

    How about the entire Mercury lineup? Is there ANYTHING there that compares to a Pontiac G6 hardtop convertible? A GTO? Anything on the horizon? They did a fine job with the Marauder, eh? Couldn't even whip a V6 Accord off the line.

    The Buick Lucerne is winning raves. It's better and cheaper than the Zephyr, and it ain't a gussied-up Mazda made in Mexico. And u can get a Northstar V8 in it.

    What does Ford have to compete with the Solstice and Saturn Sky? Seen the new Saturn Prevue?

    And as an LS owner, I'll mention just one more GM car to drool over: CTS-V.

    Ford has the Mustang and what else (and the Mustang itself is a compromise on what it could have/should have been)? The Fusion is OK at best, the 500/Montego twins are selling like refridgerators to Eskimos, as bad as the GM minivans are, the Ford/Mercury minivans are far worse and may go away soon, leaving Ford without any minivans.

    Sorry, nv et al, as someone who's purchased 2 new Lincolns in the past 6 years and also owns a Ford van, I see nothing on the horizon that whets my appetite for another blue oval product. In fact, there really ARE NO blue oval products anymore. There are only warmed over Mazdas and Volvos. Who needs that? All IMHO as always.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    The new GM suv's are ok, one would think for a brand new truck platform in 2006 they would at least incorporate Independent rear suspension, more ratio's for the transmission with the new tahoe's, fold flat 3rd row seats. telescoping sterring wheel. so come on you can praise Gm suv's all you want, as 07 models they can easily be benchmarked, which i fully expect to occour.

    exactly, the camaro is exactly that, a concept, (meaning not in production) so how can you even compare to the current mustang? by the time camaro comes to market wouldnt you exect ford to have a new pony ready to take that vehicle on, come on giving how long gm takes to bring vehicles from concept form, i wouldnt count on seeing the camaro anytime soon, and when it does come lets see how much of that concept remains with the production version.

    Y would u compare pontiac to mercury cleary not in the same market, i totally agree about mercury not beeing competitve, but pontiac ?? come on, bonneville, grand prix, (need i continue)

    The Buick lucurne is not exactly getting rave reviews from what ive read, its again ok for Gm, another warmed over vehile built on a ancient platform. using a standard V6 thats not competitive with anything and the northstar is slower to 60 than most of its v6 rivals.

    CTS-v while nice still leaves a lot to be desired for a 50k vehicle that interior just will not due, im sorry and so should gm be for that god awfull interior. axle hop is another problem, remember again this is a 50k vehicle. just totally unacceptable.

    The last time i checked ford has a couple of best sellers still, f150, mustang, escape. and what does gm have that can compete with the fusion? if you notice no gm vehicle is even compared to fusion by most auto mags. wonder why? malibu maybe, g6 ? yea right. fusion is more compareable to the top tier midsizers (camry, accord, sonata). As if gm minivans are any better and i read for 06 they are decontenting those models, due to slow and sagging sales they will no longer include standard dvd players, the buick versions loose the IRS. what is also sad about gm's vans is the fact they dont include a full 3 row side curtain system like the fords do.

    One thing ford deffinatly has going for it is its new 3.5 v6 which sounds very promising, 265hp on regular. what gm v6 can do this. @ 3.6 liters, this gm v6 only makes 255 hp in its highest form. and from the reviews i read, while the 3.6L is smooth, it still sounds course and doesnt befit a premium vehicle (i.e. cadillac). and you mention that fords are warmed over mazda's and volvo's, yea and last i checked ford owns both companys, meaning they can use whatever they want to use from those companies, im sure they all share one part or another, as if gm or any other manufacturer doesnt do this.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    That's an interesting article.

    Good:
    "Two of every five Zephyr buyers are trading in vehicles other than Ford or Lincoln-Mercury cars and trucks, Lincoln says. The Honda Accord and Nissan Maxima are among the top nameplates for Zephyr trade-ins, says Lincoln brand manager Tom Grill."

    Bad:
    "...the average age of Zephyr buyers in the first three weeks of March was 56, reports J.D. Power and Associates' Power Information Network. The Power network notes that Lincoln is placing heavy incentives on the Zephyr. In February, those incentives amounted to $4,293 per Zephyr, Power says, compared with $1,782 per car for the entry-luxury segment overall."
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's just plain wrong. The Zephyr has never had anywhere close to $4K in incentives. It's typically been $500 cash plus another $500 from Ford Credit. It may have been slightly higher during the Perfect Match down payment promotion but it was never more than $2K total. Where do they get this crap?
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    "Where do they get this crap?"

    I love how objective you are.

    Not all incentives are made known to the public and not all incentives go from the manufacturer directly to the consumer. Many are MFG to dealer.
    You don't know about those.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I know all about dealer cash - it's called marketing support here on Edmunds and right now there is none for the Zephyr. In contrast there is $4K in dealer cash above and beyond the $4K customer rebate on a 2006 LS.

    But given that Zephyrs are selling in just 21 days and there is no abundance of them on dealer lots it doesn't make any sense that there would be dealer cash - certainly not $2K worth.

    Why do you believe everything you read in the media?
  • Just look at your local ads--if your dealers are advertising the Zephyr locally. Without dickering, the price is routinely $3,000 lower than sticker. They pushed like heck to get the numbers up in March, and they did. Still. all that effort and we are only talking about 7,000 in sales since the first of the year. Given what Lincoln is offering right now (the hoary old TC, the niche LT, the lame duck 2006 and the Z), you'd think the Zephyr would be selling like hotcakes--or at least selling out the limited supply available, without so many incentives. Poor Lincoln.

    Meanwhile, Chrysler remakes itself, Saturn is issuing a bunch of new models, Jeep has four new vehicles in 2007. The Zephyr has a lot riding on it right now. The MKX can't get here soon enough.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    See that Zephyr ad on the left side of this page with all those $0's in it? Those deals and the subsidized 1.9 financing are paid for out of that $4000 per unit incentive money.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Still not buying it. Show me the JD Power chart showing $4K in incentives and I *might* believe it. I could believe $4K on any other Lincoln, but not the Zephyr.

    The Fusion has a much higher dealer supply and it only had $1600 in incentives. It just doesn't make sense.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    There are only warmed over Mazdas and Volvos.

    What's wrong w/ that? There are worse cars to warm over than Volvos.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    I guess that settles it then.
    The next time Automotive News writes a story, they will have to run it by you first for a fact check.

    Since you obviously know the numbers behind every incentive and all the holdback money Ford offers it's dealers, Are there any other fabrications in the story we should be aware of?
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    "Where do they get this crap?"
    "Why do you believe everything you read in the media?"
    "Still not buying it."


    Didn't you post a link to a story in posts 1052 and 1053?

    Did you verify the facts of that story before posting the link?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Common sense says you don't put $4300 in incentives on a car that dealers can't keep in stock for more than 21 days and are in relatively short supply.

    The Edmunds TMV on a new Zephyr is ABOVE dealer invoice including the current $500 rebate.

    I have access to X plan pricing. I checked the 2006 LS and it shows the $4K customer cash PLUS another $4K in dealer cash because when you buy on X plan the dealer isn't allowed to keep ANY incentives or charge any extra fees. When I check the Zephyr all it shows is $500 customer cash OR low financing rates plus $500 ford credit cash. No additional incentives, customer or dealer.

    Unless they have a definition of incentives that includes things other than factory to customer and dealer rebates then the $4300 incentive figure is just plain wrong.

    Why is that so hard to understand?
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Common sense also says if you put $4300 in incentives on a car, the dealers won't have to keep them in stock for more than 21 days and they will be in relatively short supply and you can trumpet your success to everyone who will listen.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Well the public has been buying them above invoice with only a $1K rebate. If you don't believe me check the Edmunds TMV price. I guess the dealer's been pocketing the difference.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    We're gonna have to stay after class for this......

    "The new GM SUVs are superb. They are far better than the Expy/Nav twins. Far better."

    In what possible way? They STILL don't have a decent third row that folds flat, they STILL don't have IRS, they STILL don't have an OHC engine, and Ford has the 3V that's hot. The only way GM can beat Ford's HP is to up the displacement to a ridiculous and thirsty level. Sorry, other than the reverse camera, I don't see how they're better at all, let alone, "Far Better".

    "Mustang? Have u seen the Camaro concept? To be produced in 08 or 09 I believe?"

    Yeah, once again 4 years late to the party, just as in the 60's. GM doesn't often have an original thought, they copy Ford.

    "How about the entire Mercury lineup? Is there ANYTHING there that compares to a Pontiac G6 hardtop convertible? A GTO?"

    No, they don't, and apparently they shouldn't because the GTO has been cancelled for lack of sales, and they've only sold 21 G6 Convertibles. Oprah will have to give those away too.

    "The Buick Lucerne is winning raves. It's better and cheaper than the Zephyr, and it ain't a gussied-up Mazda made in Mexico."

    Raves? Uh, er, from whom exactly? Avis? Budget? How is it better than the Zephyr? And frankly, I'll put up the Mazda 6 against any Buick you can find. If the made in Mexico bothers you, get over it. Nobody can afford to build cars here anymore, thanks to the UAW.

    "Seen the new Saturn Prevue?"

    George, C'mon, you would buy a Saturn? If so, please tell me so I can take you off my CarSpace friend list.... ;)

    "And as an LS owner, I'll mention just one more GM car to drool over: CTS-V."

    You may have me there, I hear it performs better than a Corvette. Personally I hate the interior, and think the exterior is a tad small, but evidently, it is good. You should buy one. I don't have much bad to say about Cadillac these days. Except, they're no Lexus.

    "Ford has the Mustang and what else (and the Mustang itself is a compromise on what it could have/should have been)? The Fusion is OK at best, the 500/Montego twins are selling like refridgerators to Eskimos, as bad as the GM minivans are, the Ford/Mercury minivans are far worse and may go away soon, leaving Ford without any minivans."

    The Mustang is no compromise for the price at all. It's an incredible value for the price, and handles well enough to compete against your LS, per Car & Driver. The Fusion is the car getting the rave reviews, not the Lucerne. The 500 is probably the best design for function out there. Too bad it's so friggin ugly. Only Toyota could sell cars that ugly. And you're dead wrong on the minivans. GM's new (but they're really not new) minivans are SO bad, they are dragging the whole company's quality coefficient down. Probably the worst thing they make. The Freestar, OTOH, has excellent reliability ratings - but as usual, is a ho-hum van. No more so than the Upchucklander is. In 6
    different flavors now, for hell's sake! As is the Trailblazer now. It's even a SAAB! Wonder why they don't give the minivan to Saab! That would be a hoot.

    "I see nothing on the horizon that whets my appetite for another blue oval product. In fact, there really ARE NO blue oval products anymore. There are only warmed over Mazdas and Volvos. Who needs that?"

    Well, I understand what you're saying there - which is why I have an LS-430 instead of a LIncoln sedan. But I also prefer the Ford SUV lineup to anybody elses. Ford is the SUV and Truck king still, IMO, they may lose that crown someday, but nobody can touch them yet. The Acura MDX comes closest, but it's a crossover, not a real truck.

    The Zephyr is a poor offering, I'll give you that. It came dangerously close to being a Lincoln, but beyond the prop-rod under the hood, the poor instrumentation, the high cowl, and the FWD configuration, mitigated by AWD, (which is going to be a trend going forward, I'm afraid), it's not nearly an LS, is it? Lincoln doesn't 'make a Lincoln sedan anymor
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Exactly, ace35. Well put.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I checked on the computer, and the Zephyr does not carry $4K in incentives, the most $1500 and that's pushing it. Not sure how Automotive News came up with this total. My only guess is they are probably adding...

    $500 College Student Cash
    $500 Cash
    $500 Lease
    $500 Military Cash
    $500 Bonus Cash
    $1000 Owner Loyalty Bonus Cash
    1.9-7.9% Financing

    And the fact is, no one qualifies for all the above. There's certain fine print details/provisions in relation to the rebates above.

    And as Akirby mentioned, these vehicles are in demand. Common sense would show that you don't slap a $4K+ rebate on a vehicle that is selling well. ON a flexible manufacturing plant which with a flick of the switch can produce a Fusion or Milan which is selling very well.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The number came from JD Power supposedly. And the owner loyalty cash is only for Mercury Sable owners.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "They are only warmed over Mazdas and Volvos.

    What's wrong w/ that? There are worse cars to warm over than Volvos."

    My point is What's the point? If I want a Mazda 6, there are several variants of it at the Mazda dealer. And if I want a Volvo, I can buy a Volvo sedan, wagon or convertible. Why do I want to buy one that looks a little different and wears a Lincoln badge (and is available as a sedan only)?

    In America, Ford used to employ people called "engineers". It was their job to design vehicles using American technology with big, powerful and sometimes even fuel-efficient V8s like the 4.6 modular V8 in the Mark VIII I used to own. They were designed to fit a mold called "American Luxury" It seems that J Nasser got rid of most of them and purchased Japanese and Swedish "engineers" in their stead.

    Now Lincoln wants me to buy a Mexican-made Mazda with some different skin or a Volvo with a waterfall grille and an engine made by a Japanese piano manufacturer. Again I say "What's the point?" And to me, it's another nail in the coffin of American technology and a slap in the face from Ford.
  • The 2007 Nav does have IRS and an overhead cam engine, unlike the new Escalade, but it is using an old body with new front and rear styling and the same hp it has had for years. Depends on what you want of course, but a lot of people will go for the totally fresh interior and exterior of the Escalade, as well as the greater power and higher rated mpg. OHV engines are just fine for most Americans, because the current ones can deliver the torque in a reasonably smooth fashion.

    "Selling very well" is a relative statement. The Zephyr is baby steps in the right direction, and yeah! for that. However, Lincoln's dive in the marketplace since 2000 could better be met with at least one volume model, and Lincoln has nothing on the horizon to address that.

    Those who defend Ford's present efforts need to understand that those who aren't so pleased can see the sales numbers, the dearth of new models coming on-line compared to other companies, as well as the slowness of introductions and wonder why this company we have all loved will still not turn on a dime when disaster looms.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    It's a little early to be bickering, but:

    SUVs: Have you sat in a Tahoe? Seen the Denali? Driven an Escalade? They are beautiful vehicles. The interiors are now better than theose in the Expy/Navigator AND the engines are LESS thirsty. Esp the 400hp Caddy engine with displacement on demand. Get your facts straight.

    Pontiac v Mercury: GM is redoing the GTO. At least the present one runs rings around the Marauder, which was Mercs pathetic attempt at a muscle car, also cancelled due to lack of sales. 21 convertibles, eh? Where do u get your inside info? At least there IS a convertible to be had. Oh wait, there's TWO - the Solstice. Oh, that's right, Mercury has a competitor for that - on the Mazda dealer's lot. My first 2 cars were Mercs. I used to love Mercs. Now? They're marketed to women.

    UAW - agreed. Those greedy Democratic voters are a major cause of the downfall of the American auto industry. Yet they ARE Americans and I'd rather they get the benefit of my money.

    Saturn- What's wrong with Saturn? Yeah, I would buy one. Got my eye on a Sky to tell the truth. Saturn's got a good rep and hold value well. And the new cars they're announcing are much more exciting than anything I've seen from FL/M.

    Mustang: One TLA: IRS.

    500/Montego: Nice cars. Terribly underpowered. The 3.5 will help them.

    Minivans: Ford is thinking of dropping them they are so uncompetitive. They think the Freestyle, Edge and Fairlane will replace em. Good luck when people can buy an Odyssey or Sienna.

    And after all your defense of Ford products you end by admitting Lincoln has nothing for you so you went Japanese. Thanks for making my point!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    George - have to disagree with you the "warmed over Mazdas and Volvos". There is an awful lot of American engineering that goes into the CD3 and D3 cars. Just because they start out with a Mazda or Volvo platform doesn't mean it's plug and play from there or a simple rebadge. e.g. The Zephyr suspension tuning was done by a former LS engineer.

    Ford/Lincoln/Mercury needs a lot of GOOD cars quickly before they can afford to build GREAT cars, and the best way to do that is to build off existing platforms.
  • Agreed. So let's get going with it.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I don't care about platforms, and even engine designs. What I care about - the final product - how it feels and drives. If American engineers are proved being un-capable designing good cars (what was proven many time last 30 years) then let Japanese and Europeans do it. Build factories in Mexico if Mexican workers are more capable than unionized lazy American workforce – who cares.

    I saw Denali - it looks more tasteful than Navigator. And interior looks luxurious. Ford still need to catch up in interior design with imports and even GM. Whatever good interior Ford engineers may design – this awful piece of cheap black plastic that they call “radio” and ”climate controls” kills the deal for me. In modern market you can find cars that handle almost as well as Ford but have more expensive looking and feeling interiors, like Honda Accord and presumably Saturn Aura. I can sacrifice handling a little bit for more refined interior feel.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Zephyr anyone? :)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    No, thanks. I'll keep my LS. :shades:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    :D :shades:
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "OHV engines are just fine for most Americans, because the current ones can deliver the torque in a reasonably smooth fashion."

    Reasonably being the operative word here. The 6.2L in my Escalade shook on idle constantly. Not the kind of smoothness I am used to in a luxury car. My Navigators, both of them were much smoother, and frankly, felt as powerful although I know they technically weren't.
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    I agree, OHV is just fine for most, although new tachnology and aluminum blocks does not hurt.

    Personally, although i have not been in the new Escallade interrior, I blieve the '06 Navigators interrior is the Best interrior of any Vehicle in its price range, in terms of design. I love the wood and the plamcement, especially all of the spance in the interrior and the cover for the radio and nav system. Very nice. The new navigator is, im sorry ford, but a POS compared to the '06, IMO.

    The engines are probably a bit alcking in terms of a Luxury SUV, but Lincoln DOES have a volume product...

    The Zephyr, or MKZ. It starts at about 30 and a fully loaded one comes in at 35. Good deal. Im not too fond with the wood on the sides of the steering wheel, but in teh Gator it looks much worse. You do get allot of features for the money though.

    I really hope Ford puts the 263 hp V6, at least in 260 hp form in the Fusion and Milan ASAP. A good engine is alwayse the best selling point, whtetr its good on HP or economy, its agood selling point.

    Made in Mexico is not, but the UAW mainly have themselves to blame. I hope they find a way to bring production back to the US.

    I just wish Ford stopped calling all lincolns "mark" now. That is so... BAD. They should not ruin the last clain to fame they have, and thats the Mark line. It would be great if/when the Mark IX comes out (based on MUSTANG OH YEA!), but by then the Mark name would be so Diluted.

    Mark in a pickup truck?????????????? Man that sucks. Like many have said they could have expanded the Navigator name with Navigator LT, but see you need common sence to do that.

    Even so, the MKS looks good, as long as you don't look inside :mad:

    Good luck Ford, I will still be your fan, but get your act together. You have made lots of progress so far, just get your act together.
  • ace35ace35 Member Posts: 131
    SUVs: Have you sat in a Tahoe? Seen the Denali? Driven an Escalade? They are beautiful vehicles. The interiors are now better than theose in the Expy/Navigator AND the engines are LESS thirsty. Esp the 400hp Caddy engine with displacement on demand. Get your facts straight.

    Actually typical GM, displacement on demand is unavailable on the 6L engines at this time. One must wonder why they didnt apply the technology to this engine first being that it is the "premium" engine of the gm trucks. So seems like we should all get our facts straight...!
  • navigator89navigator89 Member Posts: 1,080
    Lol, what happened to your spelling in the second paragraph? :sick:
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I've found it's hard to make a Cadillac guy a LIncoln guy, and even harder to make a Lincoln guy a Cadillac guy. You kind of like one or the other if you have any car passion at all.

    I like the Zephyr interior - to me, it's the best feature aesthetically. BUT, I don't like the high cowl. I don't like the bathtub feeling in the CTS, and I don't like it in this either. But the interior is pretty. The rest of the car is pretty ordinary for a Lincoln, IMO.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's please get back to the Zephyr - that's why we're here. ;)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "Esp the 400hp Caddy engine with displacement on demand...

    Actually typical GM, displacement on demand is unavailable on the 6L engines at this time"

    Mea culpa. Disp on Dem is in the Tahoe in the 5.3L V8, not the 6.2L in the Esc. APologies.

    I still think the Zephyr is better looking than the LS.
  • I still think the Zephyr is better looking than the LS.
    It should be...it is a heckuva lot newer. And you would have thought Lincoln would have learned a lesson from the LS. Although it looked ok, and had some forward-thinking design features (like the abbreviated front overhang), it was too plain and not expensive-looking and distinctive enough for the price class. Lincoln was being too careful and so the initial favorable reception didn't work out for very long.

    One could argue the same about the Zephyr (it is too plain or derivative), but the Zephyr had to share most body components with a Ford...or not be at all. The LS on the other hand, lent its body to an uplevel Ford (the Thunderbird) but with different body panels, wheelbase and body style.

    None of these cars made a big splash in the marketplace(Ford's protests that the Zephyr is doing wonderfully aside). The Zephyr should be a volume model for Lincoln, but it is not. There is neither enough production possible, nor enough pressure on sales to make it so. If it were selling anywhere near as well as the LS did its first year, the division honchos would be peeing their pants in ecstacy.

    With the right re-style and upgrades, the LS could have moved upmarket where it would have had more prospects for making a profit. I don't think Lincoln had any plans for the next iteration in place when the LS was first introduced (given the lead time needed to bring a total redesign to market). I don't think Toyota would make such an obvious planning error. I doubt the next iteration of the MKZ is very far along either.

    I see Ford's stock is plummeting even more today. Where are the proposed new products we don't already know about fcr months now??? Does this company really have a desire to survive?
  • BTW, the $4,000+ in incentives on the Zephyr is obviously contained in the sweet leasing deal currently being offered (no cash due at signing, no 1st month payment, no down payment, and only $364 a month for 39 months). You gotta know that is costing Ford some bucks to offer.
  • displacedtexandisplacedtexan Member Posts: 364
    ...it was too plain and not expensive-looking and distinctive enough for the price class. Lincoln was being too careful and so the initial favorable reception didn't work out for very long.

    That's in the best Lincoln tradition. ;) Here's Henry Leland, from Lincoln and Continental Classic Motorcars, the Early Years: "I believe motorists will agree that the ideal car should possess primarily six important virtues: good appearance, trustworthiness, long life, power, economy, and comfort. The order of their importance is largely a matter of individual opinion. In appearance, the cars are substantial, well-proportioned, and graceful."

    The oft-cited quintessential Lincolns, the 1956 Continental Mark II and the 1961 Continental, which started life as a Ford Thunderbird, were pretty restrained compared to the competition.

    What one person might see as bland others might see as classically understated. Of course, if you're going to go the understated route, you'd better back it with compelling technology, impeccable fit and finish, and engaging handling.

    IMO where the LS failed was initially somewhat cheap interior materials and failure on Lincoln's part to adequately advertise the car's virtues. They just let it languish.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    My guess is they'll move Zephyr production to wherever they're making the MkX and Edge freeing up more production for Fusions/Milans and allowing more MkZ production. This makes sense since the MkX, Edge and MkZ will all be using the same drivetrain and same basic platform.

    2006 is just a warm-up to give Lincoln dealers some product to sell. 2007 will be the yardstick as to how successful the MkZ will be once it gets the 3.5L and AWD and (hopefully) more production capacity.

    I'll even predict that they'll sell close to 50K of the 2007 models assuming they can produce that many. That's what the LS did in it's first model year.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    IMO where the LS failed was initially somewhat cheap interior materials and failure on Lincoln's part to adequately advertise the car's virtues. They just let it languish.

    The LS was just the first part of a bigger plan for Lincoln that included a 3 series and 7 series competitor plus European exports. Then the Firestone fiasco hit, Lincoln's budget got cut by 70% overnight which killed the other new vehicles. This drove up the cost of the DEW98 platform even higher with only 1 Lincoln vehicle using it. Then they were kicked out of the PAG and export plans were killed. When they discontinued the Continental the LS was forced to fill that void in the dealer lineup which led to even further price reductions, ensuring the LS was losing money on every sale. THAT's when they stopped advertising it.

    The sad part is they had at least a 2 year headstart on Cadillac back then. The LS was tested on the Ring way before the CTS.

    Blame Firestone, lawyers and stupid SUV drivers.
  • And Ford as well. When the chips are down, you do NOT starve the marketplace of product. It is needed even more. Borrow the money. Get creative. But you absolutely can't pay off a Firestone-type debacle by robbing your company of its very lifeblood: the products it sells. Or you get what Lincoln now has: a mishmash of delayed introductions, and not enough products, some of which are too old or else (in the 2006 Zephyr's case) under-developed.

    Meanwhile a commnent on another email...
    Understated and bland are two different things. The 1961-69 Continentals may have been understated, but few saw them as bland. Furthermore, time has been kind to the design. On the other hand, time will find the 500 as forgettable in 20 years as it is today.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    "Blame Firestone, lawyers and stupid SUV drivers."

    Ford gets the blame.

    They are the ones who have a new 10 year plan every single year. Other than F-150 and Mustang, they have not successfully launched a fully-developed car in about 6 years.

    Think of all the eggs they have laid - Blackwood, Marauder, T-bird, The aborted SVT's, the promised-freshened Mark LT, Adrenaline, the weak engined Zephyr renamed after 6 months, the shamefully outdated Focus and 13 year old Crown Vic on a 30 year old chassis and downright embarrassing Ranger. The Expedition/Navigator and Explorer/Mountaineer are both very capable and well engineered but bizarrely, they put 10 year old bodies on the new chassis. The 500/Montego with small V-6's carrying nearly 5000 lbs and now we hear hints that maybe their fingers were crossed behind their backs when they said the MKS would be built.

    Oh yeah, they blew years of development money on the GT so Billy had a piece of jewelry to show off at the country club.

    The fish always rots from the head.
  • caliddcalidd Member Posts: 60
    I've heard that finance rate on the Zephyr for 36 months is 1.9%. Any guesses that this will drop to 0% as 2007 Mkz's hit the show room? When would that be anyway?

    Also, a color question. I've seen several different models with the Light Sage color, and there appears two be two variations of that color: one is cashmere-like, and the other appears to have a greenish-hue to it. Is this just an optical illusion, or is there a quality control issue here?
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