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You defend Lincoln vociferously and you attack GM and Cadillac as if they have screwed up worse than Lincoln.
It does make sense for Cadillac to begin adding more expensive platforms and even halo cars now, as they are a few years ahead of Lincoln in their comeback. What old GM did has little to do with their current plan. That would be to eventually move into the territory occupied by Mercedes, BMW and Audi. They are already there with the CTS and ATS, but certainly they have a long way to go. But they are on the road.
Lincoln is back trying to be more like Acura, and maybe eventually Lexus. I see that the MKZ is better rated by Consumer Reports than the new IS250 (not recommended), and the new Infiniti Q50. So that is a good thing.
Maybe there will be no more mediocre and/or undesirable efforts like the MKS and MKT. Bash Cadillac if you want, but Lincoln has a lot of screwy decisions to answer for. And if I should only focus on the new Lincoln--which I am willing to do--then it makes no sense either to bash Cadillac for past things like the XLR.
Face it...whether Cadillac has "wasted" money is beside the point. The vehicles are selling, GM is profitable and Cadillac's reputation as a quality company is coming back after long years of the doldrums.
I want Lincoln to be at least as good, and hopefully one day BETTER than Cadillac. Cadillac bashing doesn't help Lincoln at all. Product will.
I own a 2006 Zephyr that I bought new and I have been reading since 2005 of Lincoln's comeback. Exactly when is that going to occur? It surely hasn't happened yet. Lincoln is still dead last in sales vs its competitors. I don't know what happened, but it is painfully clear that Ford just does not know how to design a luxury car or at least design a luxury car that people actually want to buy. Ford made the wrong decision when it axed Mercury. It should have killed off Lincoln and restored Mercury back to what it used to be - a genuine upgrade over Ford with distinctive styling and nicer interiors, but with an appropriate price tag. Lincoln's aren't even as appealing as the old Mercury's so, why in the world would someone buy a Lincoln instead of a Lexus or Cadillac or BMW, etc.
In all honesty, there is not one model of Lincoln that I find compelling. And based on the pathetic sales figures, a lot of other people think the same way. Across the lineup, they are ugly, cheap looking inside and way over priced. I guess that renaissance is still on its way. I have a suggestion to Ford. Shoot Lincoln and put it out of its misery and then bring back Mercury. At least Mercury had a following.
It will be 2-3 years before we really see a lot of the changes and probably longer until we see any clean sheet vehicles or new platforms. Lincoln is profitable now due to low costs and high ATPs and Ford is making tons of money so there is no hurry.
If you're impatient and expect to see totally new vehicles on new platforms now you're going to be disappointed. It's a long term rebuilding plan that includes dealership upgrades and those won't happen overnight either.
Anyway having said all of that, my comments are nothing more than my opinion (just like everyone's post). I have noticed over the yrs that you are quite the Ford apologist. No matter what, you consistently defend the blue oval and, at most, rarely even over a mild criticism. Your response gave me quite a good laugh. "they've been working on the Lincoln revival for the last 2 yrs." What about the revival that started way back in 2005? I guess that doesn't count because there is now a subsequent revival in place. When I bought my 06 Zephyr, it was touted as being the first car of the "new" Lincoln. And more new Lincolns were in the pipeline. "It will be 2-3 years before we really see a lot of the changes and probably longer until we see any clean sheet vehicles or new platforms." Are you kidding? The 2014s are out. Now 9 yrs later and we have to wait another 3 yrs or more for the revival!
You say Lincoln is profitable. I don't know so, I'm not going to say you are wrong. I'll just say that I find it hard to believe. Ford invested a ton of money into the new MKZ and, from what I have read, it is barely equalling the sales of the model it replaced. So if Ford invested so much money into the new MKZ and it sales are so few, how can it be making money? The fact that in it's first yr the new model is essentially selling just like the old model must be horrifying to the bean counters at Lincoln. Sales usually go down after the first yr not up. When you invest all that money into a new model, you need a significant sales bump. Ford has not gotten that with the MKZ. I think that is trouble.
When I said Ford should kill Lincoln and bring back Mercury, I didn't mean drop and revive nameplates. That would be an image nightmare for Ford. What I meant was market Lincoln for what it truly is and has been for a long time now. It's what Mercury used to be. It's nothing more than a Buick competitor that's priced like a Lexus. The public isn't stupid. If they want a luxury car, they'll spend the money and buy a Lexus. If they want a Buick, they'll buy a Buick and save $10,000. Right now, Lincoln isn't successfully competing in either market.
I'm a Ford shareholder and I want to see maximum returns. Because Lincoln is a drag on Ford (or at best isn't helping), I'm not seeing that. You keep talking about profit. Okay, maybe Lincoln is making $1 per car. That's not good enough. Ford needs to make $100 per car (just throwing out numbers to make a point). We all understand that whatever you sell, you must make a profit on it. If you lose money on every car, it doesn't matter how many cars you sell, you are still going to lose money. However, anyone who has taken a college economics course will tell you, the most important component to total profitability is sales. You can have the best product in the world, but if you can't sell it, it's worthless. Simply put, if Ford wants to price the Lincoln like a luxury car, they to turn it into a luxury car. Putting a Cadillac price tag on a Buick doesn't make Buick a Cadillac. If Ford is incapable of making a true luxury car (which I believe is the case), it needs to slash Lincoln prices and market Lincoln for what it has become.
Anyway, hope all this doesn't fire you up. It's not a personal attack. I know you are passionate about all things Ford and that's good. But I think you need to take off those blue oval sunglasses concerning Lincoln. It's in real trouble. Ford may be making better Lincolns, but everyone else continues to improve also. Lincoln is clearing struggling and has not closed the gap after nine yrs. It's on life support.
As for sales - look at the prices and rebates. They're not discounting much. ATPs are high with only $750 rebates on the mkz. If they were to put $3k on the hood like the ATS they'd sell more for sure but they are content with more profit on fewer units - for now at least - while they launch their new plan.
The current mkz is not representative of where Lincoln is going. It was done before the new team took over.
If Ford wants to succeed with their luxury brand they must start by hiring You and the people like You. Do not worry if your carrier did not cross automotive path, neither was Mr. Mulally's until he joint the company.
If You did not read my post "The car I never got", please read it. Who knows what their problem really is. Sometimes you do all the best you can, but at the end still there is no light in site. Other times, the company produce questionable products, but their business is booming. It must have something to do with luck.
I've had two Lincoln's LS in the past. Though I liked the vehicles, I have to admit that quality problems combined with outrageous customer support was left to be desired. I guess I am stubborn and I keep coming back. If it was not for the same issues, I would have gotten 2013 MKZ. I sincerely liked the car in and out. Perhaps, when the lease on my Audi is over in couple of years, I will try again. Lets see if the luck will be on my side the second time around. :-)
1. Speedometer stopped working.
2. Head lights went out.
3. Rear tail light went out (cost 500 bucks).
That's it. What is weird is that I just got inspected and my brakes are still green. I have never replaced brake pads. I wonder if they used something special but I remember owning a Mercedes and replacing pads every 35k miles but then again that was the Ex driving it. LOL
So if things improve in my situation I would love to own the MKZ Hybrid.
So, maybe Lincoln's market share decline is over and it can build up from this point. The only way, however, will be to get new models on the street. The new MKZ is doing all it can but that doesn't amount to any more than the previous MKZ did in its best years.
1. 2013 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid
When it comes to luxury cars, Lincoln is a name that stands out as one of the best. With their MZK Hybrid, they are continuing that tradition. A mid-size sedan, the MZK Hybrid is a car that the company put a lot of effort into to get people back into driving a Lincoln. The car has an MSRP of close to $36,000, making it relatively affordable, but packs all the usual Lincoln features and luxurious that people have grown accustomed to. Throw in the fact that it’s a hybrid and you have a fantastic car. It will get you 45 mpg, which is a lot more than you may remember as a kid riding around with your parents in their Lincoln.
I expect a lot of the new MKC features (lighting, 2.3L engine, etc.) to make it to the MKZ with little or no price increase now that Flat Rock is offloading Fusion capacity.
But meanwhile, reputation will be a factor in rebuilding Lincoln as a true luxury brand. Right now, we all know Lincoln sales are in the doldrums. Cadillac introduces the XTS (hardly a world class machine) and already they are selling 3.6 XTSs for every MKS sold.
Perhaps Ford really doesn't care (we are making money here), but when the buzz is that Lincolns are over-priced and not engineered to the level of refinement of much of the competition, that hurts brand image, and that keeps sales low even when production is not contrained.
BTW, I have seen some hefty incentives on Lincoln models locally (both leasing and buying), so those few sales are not as profitable as you might imagine.
Realistic list prices is what I am talking about, so that when production is not contrained, big incentives will not be needed. GM just pulled this stunt with their new pickups: big price hike and then big rebate to get people to believe they are getting a bargain. In their case, it is working to some degree as sales have increased. (How gullible are people?)
In this case the trucks are getting decent comparison reviews. Lincolns are not. There is not one Lincoln model that is at or anywhere near the top of its class. Here's hoping the MKC changes that. The 2.3 model looks good, is well equipped, and potentially could drive better than the 2.0 liter Audi. Now, if they could just move their new model intros up a bit...but that is not likely to happen.
I don't understand why MKZ selling 3K at higher ATPs with only $750 incentives is marginal when the so much better and newer ATS is selling less with $3K on the hood.
Secondly, I don't think that 2909 sales (MKZ) v. 2782 sales (ATS) is statistically different, given changes month over month. But more importantly, these are not comparable cars and unlikely to be cross-shopped.
Cadillac entered a new market with the ATS, a market that is already hot and saturated with the BMW 3 series, Mercedes C Class and Audi A4/S4 among others. Those shopping an MKZ would be more interested in a larger machine than the ATS, and the competition would more likely be Avalon, Azera, Cadenza, ES 350, Maxima, even the Volvo S80--although that is deader than the MKS!
Thirdly, the ATS is NOT newer than the MKZ. The MKZ is newer than the ATS. Remember? The ATS came out in fall 2012. The MKZ did not arrive until calendar year 2013.
Now, as for incentives, please note those on the 2014 MKZ, an extensive list. Only $750 in incentives is NOT accurate....sorry to report.
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/99/2014/lincoln/mkz/base_sedan/341/rebates.html
Next, note those on a 2014 ATS. No actual rebates...the incentives are on loans and leases (which MKZ also has).
http://www.automobilemag.com/am/99/2014/cadillac/ats/25_1sb_sedan/3765/rebates.h- tml
Finally, Cadillac has the Car of the Year 2014 CTS, which practically every reviewer has called better than the BMW 5 series and the E Class. It also has the aforementioned non-comparable ATS, also well received. Actually, Lincoln has nothing like either one. MKZ more or less straddles the two classes, sort of like the ES350 does (although the Lexus has significantly more interior room without a significantly bigger footprint). Plus Lexus has a 5 series competitor, although it is not doing well.
So once again, you are a Ford/Mercury...oops LINCOLN fanboi (more so than me anyway, even though I still wish Lincoln would turn around despite their slow response that has done nothing to make that turnaround real) looking for evidence...that ignores other evidence. We all do that. We are human and that's what humans do.
I suspect in sum that Cadillac is now making more money on their ATS and CTS sales than Lincoln is making on their MKZ sales. I could be wrong.
Tell me again which company went bankrupt?
The new one is coming back like gangbusters. Ford is still doing better thankfully, but like it or not, GM has a big jump on Ford with its luxury brand. Yep, they spent gobs of money doing it, but apparently proved their corporate business case.
Lincoln has yet to prove any of their corporate business cases for the MKS, MKT, etc. You may be savvy, I'll give you that, but I cannot see your sour grapes regarding Lincoln's chief American rival.
That new new new Lincoln team may have some tricks up their sleeves, but speed to market isn't one of them. They need to figure that out Why the MKC won't be here until late next summer is rather odd in such a competitive market.
I know you don't like Cadillac, but geez, in the time Lincoln has taken to get the MKZ and MKC here, Cadillac has the ATS, the coming ATS coupe, the XTS, the new CTS, the new Escalade, and ELR. The CTS coupe will soon be updated, the SRX is being re-done soon, and another new crossover is coming. Meanwhile, Lincoln talks about 4 new models now. Two of them are the MKZ and MKC.
Cadillac's pipeline is still not very full when compared to Audi, BMW and Mercedes, among others. Even struggling Volvo will be bringing more new models to market in the next 2 to 3 years than Lincoln plans to do.
The corporate think at Ford has not allowed them to think outside the box about Lincoln. As a result, every new re-set of Lincoln Motor Company has not moved the needle in the right direction for th epast 12 years or more.
The world has changed. When non-luxury cars offer quiet, refinement, all the bells and whistles that used to be exclusive to luxury machines, the leaders have had to up their game considerably. Lincoln is still thinking that finally producing vehicles that share no exterior panels or interior fittings and an exclusive engine or two is the answer. It is only part of the answer.
It's taken Cadillac at least 10 years to get where they are today and they've only got 4 competitive vehicles - two that were recently introduced. Yet you expect Lincoln to be there in less than 3 years? We've only seen a tiny glimpse of what Lincoln has in store. Just because they're doing it methodically doesn't make it wrong and this effort is nothing like any previous Lincoln revivals. But impatient people just can't seem to stand the wait. They'll get higher performance vehicles but they're not the priority right now because vehicles like the MKC pay the bills, not vehicles like the ELR and the CTS-V.
Lincoln has been trying to come back for at least 10 years as well. Yes, three years is too little to "come back," but Lincoln has had a lot longer than that. You act as if this latest team was their only comeback attempt, but you know that isn't true. I hope this time it works, but meanwhile you trash Cadillac for taking a course that has put them years ahead of Lincoln.
I can go back many years on this site and find messages from you touting Lincoln's comeback attempts. For examplke, I remember when you said the MKT was the new Lincoln's first clean sheet vehicle.
I remember when the MKS was merely a concept (with a different grill and sequential headlights). My immediate reaction a couple years before the darn thing was introduced was PLEASE don't. Please look at it. It is dull. It is not pretty. It will not succeed. If a dolt like me can see the writing on the wall, why oh why were people who couldn't see it being paid the big bucks to bring out such mediocre styling and dynamics?
And then they follow it up with the MKT??? What on earth were they smoking? Had either of those cars had beautiful designs, Lincoln would be much further along today. It was wasted money, and you trash Cadillac for spending a lot of money and getting somewhere?
Yes, Cadillac has five competitive vehicles in their respective categories (ATS, CTS, SRX, XTS, Escalade).
I don't expect Lincoln to turn around in three years. I expect them to stop changing a bad course to another course every three years, and after 12 years getting nowhere.
And I expect you to stop crowing about how Lincoln is not using incentives to sell cars when they are using more incentives to sell the 2014 MKZ than Cadillac is using to sell either the 2014 ATS or CTS.
BTW, hybrids are neither high volume nor high profit vehicles yet. They will one day be so , but they are not yet. Lincoln has one small crossover, the MKX and it is not selling well. Cadillac has the SRX and it is selling well. Both brands have plans to expand those choices, the MKC being an example.
"It's one model, folks - 50K units. In the meantime they're adding the 3.5L and AWD (not just FWD) to the Zeph...err...MKZ in addition to new interior and exterior styling and introducing a totally new vehicle in the MKX.
Let's talk about timeframes from concept to production:
Mustang - concept introduced at NAIAS in Jan. 2003, production version shown at NAIAS in Jan. 2004, production Sept. 2004.
Ford GT - concept introduced at NAIAS in Jan. 2002, first production version June 2003, production April 2004.
I'm not saying they don't need it now but 2 years is not totally out of line."
"If you define success as flash in the pan designs that are popular today and forgotten tomorrow, then yes they are successful. The [Chrysler] 300 will sell good at first then fall off as people tire of the in-your-face styling and they'll have to start over with something totally new. Meanwhile, the 500 will soldier on with steady sales for years to come with just a few tweaks. When they freshen up the front of the 500 and add the 3.5L V6 I bet it easily outsells the 300."
I've repeatedly listed all he things that make this turnaround effort different than past efforts. Mulally is the main difference, followed by a dedicated Lincoln staff of over 100 including Max Wolf and no other brands to be distracted by (Mercury, Jag, Aston-Martin or Land Rover). I don't know why you keep dismissing this since it's exactly what Cadillac did years ago. The fact that you keep bringing up the MKT and MKS tells me you don't get it.
In 2010, Lincoln did manage to move 7400 of the suckers, but sales have been lower since.
Now, Lincoln needs people like you...died in the wool supporters through thick and thin. I want you to start being right with your predictions. Let's do a review in another 2 years. :shades:
I agree we should just wait another year at least otherwise we'll just be rehashing the same thing over and over again.
"If you consider that 16M vehicles will be sold this year and 100K is a good sales target - that means you only have to convince 6.25 people out of every 1000 buyers. And it probably means you can sell at a premium instead of bargain basement."
Confronted by heyjoe, you responded:
"I just used 100,000 as a round number - I don't think Ford has released its sales target yet. 40,000 wouldn't surprise me - with a shared platform and normal pricing they can make money at that volume. And that means they only need to convince 2 or 3 people per 1000 buyers."
Now, all of us occasionally say things we regret. I certainly have. Let's give the new team two more years to simply start being a real player in this premium category. I've put November, 2015 in my calendar. Let's do another review then. Every premium brand of course gets two more years of development as well.
All of us here are speculating. Guessing. The group comes closest to reality when there are all points of views represented. This forum needs your input, because you represent those people who truly believe Lincoln can do it.
I truly enjoy sparring with you. You also occasionally provide inside information that I do not yet have.so, back to our corners.
I agree that the MKZ is relatively salvageable. Some styling tweaks could work wonders. You know I don't normally say this about any vehicle. The Ford 500 was not salvageable with styling tweaks and the market proved that.for the MKZ, some drivetrain improvements, and some interior engineering to carve out a bit more back seat room, like Chevy has done with the Malibu in one year's time, could help a lot.
so why not do like Honda did with the Civic in one year or Chevy is doing with the Malibu in one year? Why wait for a mid cycle refresh for the MKZ?
Let's keep personal insults out of here. We're not that kind of forum.
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Meanwhile, Cadillac's approach is slowly but surely paying dividends. Three new sedans in the last year, and all are doing fairly well. The new CTS (Car of the Year) is just beginning to build at 2,643 November units. The ATS is taking off at 3,443 units, and the XTS is a surprise to me at 3,417 units. That is beginning to approach the Ford Taurus 4,901 units and the XTS is a significantly more expensive car, even with discounts.
The new Escalade is already getting good press and it won't go on sale until early next year. Lincoln badly needs a thorough Navigator update.
So, the MKZ is a small bright spot. Everything else Lincoln needs a revamp, and of course the MKZ needs some drivetrain tweaks too.
It will be a long road. 2013 will likely be another year of decreased Lincoln brand annual sales. It took Audi the better part of two decades to rebuild to its current status. Given the even more competitive market now, it may take Lincoln at least as long. More and more mainstream brands are introducing premium cars. The new Genesis looks fantastic, and will now offer AWD. Same with the new Kia K900. But competition makes everyone better, and will surely weed out the chaff.
Awfully quiet here. I see MKZ has more or less sold 3K units a month since production was sorted out. MKC now due to arrive this summer. That should help a lot, since the small CUV category is so hot. I saw a rumor they plan to lightly refresh the MKS once more before replacing the current one. I hope that is not true. Was in a Lincoln show room to test drive the MKZ hybrid. The MKS sitting there looked too tall, too heavy and too bland. Another nose will not fix that, and the money would be put to better use bringing an entirely new one to market a couple months sooner.
They just demoted Wolf - not a good sign. I hope the lack of info means they're doing more dramatic changes. I understand taking your time and staying within a budget but some hints would be nice.
Being based on the porky Taurus/Five Hundred, there is little they can do to make it less bulky.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
If you own a 2013 or 2014 Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, a reporter would like to talk with you. Please email [email protected] no later than Friday, June 13, 2014 with your daytime contact information.
Gee - I wonder why?
Was that one of the "Ford" models that had the EPA mileage derated (I'm on the road and way behind on the news).
Yes - mpg was reduced from 45 to 38 or so due to an error in the "coastdown" simulation formula. Ford found the discrepancy in its internal testing and is correcting it. Good that they found it and self-reported but not good that it took over a year to find it or that it happened in the first place.
I'm surprised it's all the way down to 38. I'm getting 37+ in my 2011, I'd expect the newer powertrain to show some improvement.