Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

1…457910…60

Comments

  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Where do the profits and the HQ are located in ?
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    If you're concerned about the workers who will assemble the car using parts outsourced from anywhere and not concerned about where the profit goes then obviously the Acura, owned by Honda, a Japaneese Co., but for the most part is utilizing American workers to build the car here in the USA..

    On the other hand Ford Motor Co. an American based auto maker for the most part utilizing Mexican workers to assemble the Zephyr, Fusion, & Milan side by side in Hermosillo with parts outsourced from anywhere but with the profits going to USA Ford.

    You'll have to decide for yourself your definition of "buy American".
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Ain't what it used to be, friends....

    The Japanese aren't being Patriotic, by the way, by building the Acura on American soil. They avoid trade restrictions and tariffs that way.

    So, I say, let's DRIVE a Zephyr, and see what they've come up with. I hope it feels better than my test drive in a Chrysler 300C did. I was disappointed in the feel of that car.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    buy the product that suits you best- you're the one working hard to earn the $$$ anyway? Today's is a global economy.

    ~alpha
  • fdcapt2fdcapt2 Member Posts: 122
    Hello Ant, it's been awhile since I've been in a Ford product forum, and glad to see you're still giving out great info on what's in the future for Ford. I was in the 500/Montego forum for a long time and enjoyed some of your posts. My question's concerning the Zephyr are, do you have a ballpark figure on a model with most of the options?? Also, you said in one of your posts here that the AWD and 3.5 would follow soon. How long is soon?? Any numbers on the 3.5 as far as HP and tourqe?? How do you think this car will compare to the Avalon, pricewise? I know it might be way to early, but I've been checking out this car for awhile, and the more I see it, the more I like it.....thanks.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Prices have not yet be set in stone yet, but continiously it's been said that it'll be a few thousands less than the competition if that helps any.

    As for the 3.5L and AWD, around 8-10 months after the initial debut of the Zephyr. HP/TQ have not yet been determined for that specific application, but the Aviator will give you an idea roughly of what it'll pump out. I'm guestimating 240-250HP as a safe ballpark figure, mainly because the 6 speed automatic will extrapolate and make it feel as much more.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    My experience with that particular transmission in the Five Hundred was pretty bad. It revved to the weirdest points, was pretty laggy, and didn't feel like it was "ready" for anything more than minimal acceleration. I hope that Ford can fix this problem with the 3.5L. They need to. That six speed auto looks very nice on paper, but it isn't really, at least in my experience.

    It better be priced well....
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Are you sure it was the 6 speed and not the CVT?

    Was it AWD or 2WD?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Car and Driver had similar comments in their comparison test, FWIW.

    ~alpha
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    Interesting article on the life of the 1936 Zephyr now owned by Lincoln that tours the country accompanying the 2006 Zephyr..

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/06/15/127121.html
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The current 6 speed automatic isn't the same (nor will be the same) as the one coupled with the 3.5L Duratec. Also, the programming of the Zephyr's 6 speed unit will differ from that of the 500, therefore it might be more active
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Prices have just been released:

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=21021&make_id=trust
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    With 2wd. I'm not trying to be mean, but a CVT with AWD would make the 500 a slug.

    I approve of the pricing. How it will drive, however, is still pretty foggy. If they soften the suspension to absorb road imperfections, then I have a sinking feeling that the Zephyr will be none-too-well of a handler. Not that I'm complaining. 29k is pretty attractive.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Actually the AWD system and CVT combination, rather than the 2WD 6-A makes the 500 the quicker of the two. the CVT is geared a bit higher, plus since it doesn't shift, it doesn't lose momentum upon every "shift" as traditional step automatics do. Also, the Haldex AWD system is rather light in comparison to numerous other systems, it only adds about 140lbs onto the vehicle itself.

    A CVT could have been coupled with the Zephyr's 3.0L V6, but there's been issues meeting the demand, since the CVT and AWD combination has been selling so well for the 500/FS/Montego trio.

    Once the GM/Ford JV transmission comes online, there will be less of a need for the current Aisin supplied 6-A, therefore it'll be phased off completely.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I thought the 6-spd auto WAS the joint venture tranny. That explains a lot.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Not the current one, which is an Aisin unit. The GM/Ford JV one will be phased in next year.
  • chuck1959chuck1959 Member Posts: 654
    I remember Cadillac sharing platforms in the 80's as I recall C bodies (?), Cadillac-Deville, Buick- Park Avenue, Oldsmobile- 98.

    B (?) bodies Chevrolet Caprice/Impala, Pontiac Bonneville/Catalina, Buick-Le Sabre Oldsmobile Delta 88
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    Major standard equipment includes a 221 horsepower 3.0L DOHC 24-valve V-6 engine with 6-speed automatic transmission; 17-inch machined aluminum wheels; anti-lock braking (ABS); traction assist; side air bags and side air curtains; a luxurious and stylish interior featuring dark ebony or light maple wood, leather and satin nickel trim; AM/FM stereo with six-disc CD/MP3 player with six speakers; intermittent speed-sensitive windshield wipers; dual-zone climate control; driver-memory leather seating surfaces; front center console with adjustable armrest; universal garage door opener; power adjustable, driver-memory heated exterior mirrors with puddle lamps; tilt and telescoping steering wheel with redundant audio and climate controls; heated, 10-way power driver and passenger seats with power lumbar and recline; new projector-beam headlamps and LED taillights; and rear-seat reading lights.

    The six available options include:

    Industry-exclusive THX II-Certified ® audio system featuring 14 speakers – ten primary speakers deliver surround sound; two front and rear center-channel speakers add acoustical depth; and two subwoofers augmented by power amplifiers deliver deep, rich bass – and a quick-loading six-disc player compatible with normal audio, MP3 compressed or text format CDs ($995).
    DVD-based navigation system on a single disc that features a sharp, 6.5-inch-wide screen and text-to-speech technology for travel directions aloud in English, Spanish or French. Includes THX II-Certified ® audio system as detailed above ($2,495).
    High Intensity Discharge (HID) headlamps designed to produce more light, last longer and use less energy than typical incandescent headlamps ($495).
    17-inch 8-spoke chrome wheels ($895).
    Perforated premium leather cooled front seats ($495).
    Power moonroof ($1,200).
    The MSRP of a fully-loaded Zephyr featuring all available options is $35,575. All prices include destination and delivery.

    just 35.5K FOR EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Thats 2 power everything seats (10 way!)
    Tha Nav, the Xenon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    14 speaker audio!

    One thing though, ANT, could you please explain how they got 221 hp out of that engine when it was supposed to be 210 hp? Is it the Mazda configuration with more hp, less torque?

    Also, this car seems a bit odd tome, since the inside of the car is old-mans land and the out side is sophisticated, yet the engine if tweaked for revs, is not a torque happy as old people like there cars to be (i like it to though). It just seams that either the interrior should reflect young peoples style (chrome, black wood, the works) or the engine should be toned for max torque.

    Either way, at 221 hp and with 35K for everything, i can see this car competing with the Acura TL and Lexus ES 330.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    According to the earlier specs, it uses Variable Intake Cam Timing like the 2003-2005 LS 3.0L AND it runs on 87 octane. The LS was pushing 235 hp with 91 octane fuel so it sounds like they just detuned it to run on 87 and probably to get better mileage. It also uses electronic throttle control just like the LS.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    A friend of mine just rented a 6-speed 500 and drove it for 500 miles. He said:

    The transmission seemed very responsive to me. There are a lot of hills around our destination and it was very good at downshifting to hold speed relatively constant without the driver having to do a lot of throttle compensation. In normal acceleration from stop to final speed there were no abrupt shift points. Everything was very smooth. During hard acceleration like to enter the throughways it would quickly get the engine revving. No hesitation. No complaints at all.

    Maybe yours was defective?
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Mazda developed their own heads for use, although this year it's tweaked for a bit more torque, but the 6 speed automatic (same as the one used on the F/M/Z,500,FS) will allow it to feel much more useable overall, without the need to increase the HP much.

    Using 87 Octane gas has always been a prority. Surely, there's other engines making more horsepower, and most probably using higher octane rating. In this case, the advantage of the transmission will help it, without the increasing cost of higher octane gas.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And considering how much people complain about having to use Premium, that's probably a smart move. Most people would rather be able to use 87 rather than get 10-20 extra horses, especially on a car that's marketed more for luxury than performance.

    Now if they're really crafty they'll allow the engine timing to be advanced to provide even more power if higher octane is used, so those that want more power can get it.
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    ""Maybe yours was defective?""

    I'm not totally loopy, several auto reviewers also think that the 6 speed is unsuited for the Five Hundred.

    Although if it was defective, I can't be completely surprised. Afterall, it is a Ford. :P
    (just joking, everyone)
  • scootertrash2scootertrash2 Member Posts: 71
    That's exactly how it DOES work.
    Your vehicle's computer will advance the timing as far as it can until preiginition occurs. If you use 87 octane or 100+ AV fuel, it will optimize it's own tuning.
  • scootertrash2scootertrash2 Member Posts: 71
    When is Ford going to realize that the underpowred V6, front wheel drive, badge engineered recipe is what destroyed GM?

    I'd love to see Lincoln come out with a tank-styled, rear drive sedan (Think Chrysler 300C) with the slab sides and mesh grille of a 1961 Continental with a Cobra engine in it and they'd finally have a vehicle that people, other than 80 year olds and rental car companies, would actually WANT to buy.

    They should design it from the start to have the possibility for a one-of-a-kind, "heritage-correct" 4 door convertible version.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not necessarily. Almost all cars will retard the timing if the knock sensor detects knocking but not all are programmed to advance the timing as far as possible to take advantage of higher octane.

    Should be easy enough to test or maybe I can find out from the engineers.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Platform sharing and re-badging are NOT the same thing. There is no way you can tell that a Zephyr shares a platform with the Mazda-6 unless somebody told you. Same with the Lincoln LS and Jag S-type, and the Volvos and Five Hundred. Same will be true with the new volvo platform based Lincolns. It's smart to share platforms. Lincoln is moving to AWD using the FWD based Volvo platform, similar to Audi's architecture but with transverse engines. The question is how well they execute it.

    Lincoln (and Ford in general) needs a lot of good, mainstream products to get profits and market share back up and then they can afford to go after the more exciting lower volume vehicles that most of us really want. Remember most of the new cars we're seeing now were designed 3-4 years ago (or more) right after the Firestone fiasco. Lincoln's R&D Budget was cut from $2B to $600K overnight. What little money Ford had left went to keep the high profit trucks and SUVs up to date.
  • scootertrash2scootertrash2 Member Posts: 71
    "Good" and "mainstream" translate to boring.
    No one, except Hertz and Avis craves boring.
    How are the 300C sedan and Magnum wagon selling compared to the "good and mainstream" 500 and Freestyle? They are so anonymous and devoid of styling they are like black holes of anti-design.
    Ask any sports fan what happens when you are behind and play really tight and scared to lose.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There is no more boring car than a Toyota Camry. They sold 426,990 last year. While people love to read and talk about exciting cars, most of us buy good, basic transportation like Camry, Accord and Minivans.

    Here are the top selling cars of 2004:

    Camry - 426,990
    Accord - 386,770
    Honda Civic - 309,196
    Chevrolet Impala - 290,259
    Ford Taurus - 248,148

    The 300C has been out for over a year and has a high-po model. In May they sold just under 13K. The 500 and Montego have been out for just over 4 months without a hi-po model (or even a medium-po model), sales are still ramping up and they sold over 11K. By the end of the year they should be outselling the 300C or at least keeping up.

    They sold 5000 Dodge Magnums in May, including the hemi model. Ford sold just over 6000 Freestyles.

    Boring sells. Period. And that's what Ford needs right now strictly from a business standpoint. We'd all like to see more power and sexier designs but that doesn't necessarily translate to higher sales and more profit.
  • scootertrash2scootertrash2 Member Posts: 71
    Here's the big difference: Camry, Accord and Civic are actually good cars that people want to own.

    Do you think a single one of those miserable tired Impalas and Tauruses was sold to a non-rental, non-fleet, real-life retail buyer without paying them thousands of dollars in incentives in order to bribe them into accepting a substandard product?

    Every 500/Freestyle I've ever seen has been a rental car.

    When you are behind, you swing for the fences, and play to win, not tighten up hoping not to lose.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Have ya driven a 300, scooter?

    I don't mean to be argumentive - but every 300 I've seen has also been a rental....
    Magnums were going through the auction last Friday for $15,000 like goose excrement through a tin horn.... They look good - but they're nothing great to drive, and not as substantial and competent feeling to me as the 500 is.
  • deanvitdeanvit Member Posts: 23
    While the Camry, Accord and Civic are all good cars that people want to own the Mazda 6 which came out before the 3 and RX8 and made Mazda relevant once again. Nobody except hardcore Mazda fans would have cared if Mazda withered away before the introduction of the 6. Credit Lincoln for sharing the 6 platform with the Zephyr instead of the 500. Most people seem content that the TL and ES330 are shared with the Accord and Camry. Honestly, which is more exciting the 6 or the Accord/Camry?

    The only real question that I have is whether the reliability and durability of the Zephyr will be in the same conversation as its Japanese rivals. If it is then Zephyr will certainly be on the my short list. At around 35,000 fully loaded with ventilated seats, navigation and that sound system the Zephyr makes a compelling argument. Furthermore with sales volume expected to be much lower the TL/ES couldn't it be viewed as a best kept secret?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If they market it like the LS then yes, it will be a best kept secret (like the LS).
  • chris65amgchris65amg Member Posts: 372
    The Five Hundred sells a lot to rental companies, at from what I've seen. There are a lot of 300's around, though. The Camry and Accord sell well because they are what people want: safe, low insurance, not-underpowered, not-looking-like-a-baby-whale-infused-with-Volkswagen, moderately priced family haulers.

    The Five Hundred is even more boring than a Camcord to me. It exudes negative personality.

    I really hope that they market the Zephyr. It looks promising.

    About badge engineering, Ford is making clones. Of course, the new midsizers aren't all Mazda 6's (for better or worse), but they are all pretty much copies of each other.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The article that I read stated Five Hundred fleet sales are at 12%, which is lower than the 21% of 300 model fleet sales. I'll try and find the article that stated so, I think it was WSJ.

    FWIW, 12% is right where the Camry is, I believe, so the Five Hundred isnt really seeing a tremendous amount of fleet like, for example, the Taurus.

    ~alpha
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    And - the 300's are now coming out of rental fleets and going through the auctions to the dealers used car inventory, so you're going to see them on the road. But the 500 is sparingly going to rental fleets.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    The 500 JUST recently started to sell at 11-12% level to fleet. The 300 as stated previously, is selling 25% to fleet, and so will the Magnum at 25% as well.

    If a 500 was spotted a few months ago, and supposedly it was considered "a rental vehicle" it's because THAT rental company paid full price for it (Enterprise does this quite a bit)...therefore it's impossible that "ALL 500 have been rental vehicles".

    The Zephyr will also be sold in minimal numbers as well....And because of flexible manufacturing, if the Fusion, or Milan version is selling at a higher rate, a flick of the switch will allow it to change to fullfill those numbers. Hence, resale or over-inventory won't be an issue.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    are going through the auction here for $15,000, 2005s with under 10,000 miles on 'em. For a supposedly hot car - they're holding value like a day old hamburger.

    I'd be surprised if you see an Zephyrs in rental fleets any time real soon - maybe in 6 months, and then sparingly. It's still hard to rent an LS from Hertz - believe me, I try every chance I get.
  • fsmmcsifsmmcsi Member Posts: 792
    The three are different enough in appearance that people will appreciate the greater choice than some others offer. For example, with Toyota, you only have the Camry and ES330.

    nvbanker - I was reading this just to keep up on what must be very critical new products for Ford, but appreciate the insight into the Magnum resale values. Many of the 300 and Magnum buyers are either Hip-Hop types or hot rodders spending all kinds of money on modifications, both indicators that those vehicles are appealing to a very limited market.

    As ANT14 has indicated (maybe hoped) it looks like Ford will have the last laugh, with the 300 / Magnum (and probably Charger with its dismal interior) being fads and the new Ford/Mercury/Lincoln models offering attractive alternatives to the Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura products.

    HOST - why is the Zephyr in a separate discussion, while the Fusion and Milan are in one? All of them should be in the same discussion.
  • navigator89navigator89 Member Posts: 1,080
    HOST - why is the Zephyr in a separate discussion, while the Fusion and Milan are in one? All of them should be in the same discussion.

    Don't group the Fusion, Milan and Zephyr in the same forum! The Zephyr is different enough from the Fusion/Milan to earn its own forum! Besides all three in the same forum just makes things confusing. Most things that apply to the Zephyr don't apply to the Fusion/Milan.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    What is the significant differentiation between the three (Fusion, Milan, Zephyr)? I've not yet seen a features comparison, so this would be really interesting!

    ~alpha
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    At this point, it would be really difficult to merge the discussions, and both are active, so we'll leave things as-is for now.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • scootertrash2scootertrash2 Member Posts: 71
    Shouldn't all of these be under the Mazda 6 category ;)
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Differentiations are mainly cosmetic, suspension tuning, NVH, drivability, and a few toys on the Zephyr not available on the Fusion/Milan. THX stereo (which I have in my vehicle) for one. Overall, they will be similar in many ways.
  • buckwheatbuckwheat Member Posts: 396
    I could not agree more with your decision to leave things as they are.
    The Fusion/Milan forum has a greater percentage of posts about the Fusion, adding
    the Zephyr when that is the car of interest means perusing a lot of posts needlessly.

    Even when the Zephyr/Milan/Fusion are released in late August and these topics
    make their way to the Sedans Forum, I believe the separation should be continued.
  • deanvitdeanvit Member Posts: 23
    ANT14, you may have already discussed this in past postings, but how would you rate the THX stereo? Is the sound quality as good or better than the bose which is used in many competitors? I want your .02. Thanks.
  • navigator89navigator89 Member Posts: 1,080
    - The Zephyr can come with DVD nav, power everything front seats, THX sound system (14 speakers), xenon headlights, heated/cooled seats
    - The Fusion/Milan, I believe have none of these as options
    - The Fusion/Milan cater to different markets, they compete with Accords and Camrys, the Zephyr chases TLs and ES330s.
    - The prices are way different

    Yes, the three cars are on the same platform and share the same powertrain and dimensions, but let's not combine forums. Keep it simple!
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Personally I believe most of the Bose systems in cars under $40K, are just hype more than anything. But that's just my opinion. I rate the THX up there along with Lexus's Nakamichi , Mark Levinson systems, Volvo's Dolby Pro-Logic, etc. I believe Edmunds is one of the very few publications where such a comparo was done. Check the comparo's of Luxury (or entry luxury), where the stereos are also rated along with the competitors and that might give you some better ideas overall as to what their opinion is over them.
  • deanvitdeanvit Member Posts: 23
    Thanks for the response. :)
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    this sounds like a great system :P

    Hey ANT, do you know how pwerful the 35 will be in the Zefyr? since we know the fusion ST270 will have that many horses, could the lincoln get the 270 version at least as an option to fight off the TL?
Sign In or Register to comment.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles