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Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

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Comments

  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    In 60s they facelifted and redesigned models every year. New grill looks more balanced. Older one looks too bold for such a small car. They need to do similar thing with Milan (make grill less bold). And of course do away with ugly piece of plastic they call radio control. Needs SD card slot or audio jack.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    I am sure Ford is not hedging their name bets due to threatened litigation by Honda over the MK-- names.

    That has nothing to do with this.

    Nothing at all.

    Of course not.

    They first say they want to get away from names and now they want us to believe that the MK stands for Mark.

    Nothing to do with litigation.

    Or trademarks.

    Of course not...

    Sigh.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Lincoln has been using MK as an abbreviation for Mark for a long, long time. A lot longer than Acura has been a car company.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    And what MK-- models have there been in the past?

    Well?
  • gregagrega Member Posts: 31
    Compare this blunder to the strategic long term 25+ year plans that Toyota and Honda develop for their cars and it is easy to see why Ford (and GM) are such a mess. Total lack of competent management and leadership!

    The 3.5 V6 should have come out at the launch with these cars, not 12-months late. YOu don't see Toyota or Honda making these stupid decicsions. Look at the launch of the new Honda Civic with a well developed model range from DX, LX, EX and sporty Si and Hybrid powertrains (on time) - all very well done and winners of COTY!

    I've lost all hope for Detroit - RIP!
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    The Z is a little tiny bit more attractive. But I don't buy any of their reasons for doing it this way. How long have they had for these cars that they couldn't have made the change we see here by the time the first version was released? What is so radical about this?

    One other thing - have they said what the shifter will be like on the version with the 3.5L engine? Are we still going to see only the lame 'D-L' settings for forward gears?

    With AWD, the 3.5L and selectshift, this MIGHT be a car worth taking on a test drive. IMHO as a 5 year LS owner. BUT, how much will that sticker for, with the important THX and sunroof options? $40K as someone has suggested? And what's the mpg rating of this drive train?
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    with many people here. The engine, while an improvement over the previous generation, should have been a 270 hp variant.

    The CTS has 255hp and its been out a few years, Toyota has a 305hp BEAST in its lexus, and Acura has 270 hp in its FWD TL which you better believe it will meet or beet 300 in the next go around.

    I believe 250hp is very competetive if put into the fusion/milan. THis is because the accord has 244hp and the camry now has 268, but the Zephyr needs more.

    Still, it is a welcome improvement. I just hope ford cranks out more power out of this engine.

    as for the name change its just stupid. Only the coupes in lincoln should have the mark name.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    Lets take note, it's 250HP using regular gas. If you (and it is engineered to do so), change it to Premium, your looking at 270-280HP. The 6 speed will make it feel, as so.
  • akirby, you wrote a short while ago that the front end was one of the most difficult to re-do, and that Ford wanted to get the model out quickly before giving it a more distinctive look. That the 2007 change would further differentiate the Lincoln.

    Good thoughts, but what they actually did was add a couple pieces of chrome. A lot of hype once again on Ford's part...about nothing. The average consumer will not even see these changes. The engine will help, but the car still looks an awfully lot like its Milan stablemate.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And what MK-- models have there been in the past?

    1956 Continental MK II
    1958 Continental MK III
    1959 Continental MK IV
    1969-1971 MK III
    1972-1976 MK IV
    1977-1979 MK V
    1980-1983 Continental MK VI
    1984-1992 MK VII
    1993-1998 MK VIII

    2001 Lincoln MK9 Coupe Concept
    http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2001/newyork/highlights/lincoln-mk9/index- .html

    Is that enough for ya?

    http://www.classiclincolns.com/lchist.htm
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I was quoting from one of the articles that quoted someone from Ford that said they didn't have time to do the front end the way they wanted due to time constraints. It is possible there are dimensional changes in addition to the very minor cosmetic changes - hard to tell unless you saw them side by side.

    We do know that they rushed the Zephyr out the door a year early - it was never supposed to get the 3.0L engine. I don't know about the front end changes but I can't imagine why they'd lie about that. They could have just as easily said there were minor styling changes and that would have been the end of it.

    Notice they were calling the MKX the Aviator until last month also. I think they were waiting to bring out the MK names all at once.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    With AWD, the 3.5L and selectshift, this MIGHT be a car worth taking on a test drive. IMHO as a 5 year LS owner. BUT, how much will that sticker for, with the important THX and sunroof options? $40K as someone has suggested? And what's the mpg rating of this drive train?

    As another LS owner, I agree it may be worth a look. However, based on the interior pictures, it still just looks like D and L - not acceptable for me. I can't stand prop rods to hold the hood open but at least there are aftermarket companies that can provide strut kits to remedy that.

    Sounds like AWD is "available" and not required? I don't need AWD in a 250 HP sedan, although others will jump at it. As for price, AWD usually only adds about $1500, doesn't it? I can't imagine the 3.5 being substantially more expensive than the 3.0, nor can I imagine the highway mileage being much different. I would think you could still be under 35K if you skip NAV.
  • Why in heck would they make "dimensional changes" that no one can see?? There are no dimensional changes, other than the additional bits of chrome. And if there are, then they are truly crazy. To spend the money making styling changes no one can see (beyond the new chrome strips)--and reap no reward for it--when they don't have any money to use wisely much less waste is preposterous even for Lincoln. What they have really done is they pulled our leg again, bless 'em.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Upon further review, the statement about the front end changes actually came from Jim Hall of AutoPacific and not from a Ford spokesperson. So that may be a bunch of bull after all. I see a slight grille change and minor changes to the front fascia but that's it, so I don't think it's true. Unless the pictures that were posted are not the final production pictures.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    it still just looks like D and L

    True, but I wouldn't give up yet. That's something they could easily change before production this fall.

    Or not.

    AWD was always planned as an option for the Zephyr/MKZ but standard on the MKS and other V8 Lincolns.

    And what is the obsession with the prop rods? Doesn't bother me at all. In fact I sort of like the simplicity.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    If you were just gonna make all these changes after one year, why not wait another year to release the car, and get it right the first time!

    Not that it is right, per se. The grille is tacky, and it is short on HP. And, having sat in it, the guages and dash look like they are still courting "boomers". :confuse:

    Note to Lincoln: If you increase HP through premium fuel, with the extra 20-25HP, people might actually think this is competitive, premium product. 250 ain't gittin' it these days.

    The more things change...... :sick:

    DrFill
  • To each his or her own. Prop rods are not simple to me. Simple is opening the hood and having it stay where you put it without having to thread a metal spindle into a metal hole and then remove it again (and clip it properly in its resting spot or risk scratches in the paint). Yes, any monkey can do it, but why should we have to? Manual windup windows are easy too, but most of us don't want them anymore on a luxury ride. Most companies have gone to struts. Easy, simple, trouble-free. Several economy cars even install them standard these days.
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    Lincoln always used "Mark", not "MK", so Acura has a legit complaint. "MKZ" is a weak moniker for a sedan, and has no value, given the car was introduced as Xephyr.

    The launch of Zephyr is botched.

    DrFill
  • jtfordjtford Member Posts: 12
    Will the MKZ get the new Ford/GM 6-speed tranny with the 3.5L engine upgrade, or will it be stuck with the current Aisin 6-speed?

    It seems to me that the Aisin is a stopgap solution, and that the new GM/Ford 6-speed is the strategic solution that will provide superior performance and durability. Getting the new engine with the "old" tranny would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

    -Jeff
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Will the MKZ get the new Ford/GM 6-speed tranny with the 3.5L engine upgrade

    Yes, all the vehicles that come with the 3.5L Duratec also get the joint venture 6 speed automatic tranny.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    If there were no Honda litigation, Ford wouldn't, IMHO, be trying to get people to think that the MK in MKZ, for instance, stands for Mark. If it truly did, they wouldn't have said they wanted to get away from model NAMES when this nomenclature of letters was announced.

    Ford is simply trying to have it both ways. And customers are going to call the car whatever they want to call the car, regardless of what Ford reps at an auto show say.

    IMHO, the letters will cause people to call the car "Forgotten" or "Ignored."
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    >Interior: The cabin is fantastic and commutes are a pleasure with the THX II sound system (the best, out there).The seats are very comfortable the heating/cooling is far superior to the Acura. The Navigation system is top notch, as well.
    Ride: very smooth and quiet, power is lacking in comparison to the TL - I will summarize with very competent if not exciting. However, the lack of torque steer when hitting the hammer down is a blessing!
    Style: I think very nice in appearance (better than the pics, many agree)and everybody and their brother isn't driving one.
    Overall, I believe that the Zephyr is a good choice and you will save some serious money in choosing this car over some of the other Sedans loaded up with options. What you lack in horsepower will affect about 1% of the time if driving conditions and speed limits are like they are in Southern ontario.<

    I agree with your evaulation. I drove my first Zephyr this week, a client just bought one and I asked him for the keys. I'm not in love with the very high cowl, and it's way to small for my taste, but it's very well appointed inside, and drives quite nicely. The features are the strong point IMO. It's got EVERYTHING I want on a car, and it seems to work very well.

    But, I have always hated the name. I understand and get the heritage, but Zephyr works better in the 20th century I think than the 21st. Therefore, I applaud the name change. I can even live with MKZ.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "without a doubt, Lincoln has made a very interesting car with a ton of stuff for the money. I just cross-shopped it with an 06 ES330, and I wanted to love the Zypher because (on paper) it has a $3k advantage over the ES option for option. The exterior is handsome, and I really liked how it rode and drove; but, the interior ruined it for me. For some reason it feels small (bound to be an optical illusion as I'm sure it's as big as the Lexus). It looks a little like something made in a very good high school shop class, as though it were all fashioned with a radial-arm saw. It's too square. There are a confusing array of buttons that are difficult to read (for those of us old enough to afford a Zypher). IMHO this car works except for the interior. Less is more, sometimes (the Town Car does it well). Bought the ES. Too bad Ford didn't finish this car. I'm inclined to buy American if it measures up."

    Interesting comments - I agree the cabin feels small, which I attribute to that high cowl position. I like the design of the interior though - it's similar to my Navigator, but not quite done as well, IMO. But I like the interior better than the exterior, which I think is bland, to ugly in the back.

    So, I have a Lexus too - and your comment about the Town Car, is exactly why I own the Lexus. I feel the Town Car interior is way too spartan for a luxury car.

    Different strokes, no doubt. Just thought it remarkable how we see them differently.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    I guess we can rename this forum to: Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ and possibly after a few months, keep Lincoln MKZ permanent?
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Uhm, what? I have never heard of a difference of using a fuel of 91 octane vs. 87 octane yielding a WHOPPING 25 horse increase in performance.

    In other words, I dont believe your claim that a Premium fueled 3.5L whateverthehell its name is will hit 275 horses when the regular fueled one only makes 250 hp.

    ~alpha
  • batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    If an engine is built with a high compression ratio then it will require premium fuel to obtain higher horsepower.
    The present Zephyr engine (low compression ratio) doesn't require premium fuel so there won't be any horsepower gains with premium fuel since it doesn't have high compression.
  • ANT14ANT14 Member Posts: 2,687
    No I'm not saying that using premium fuel will gain 20HP, I'm saying, if the engine were tuned for maximized performance requiring premium fuel, it'll allow it to gain 20HP.

    In fact, the engine is designed to to do so, if need be. It also allows for Direct Injection which would net it similar gains. The engine is also designed to be turbocharged/supercharged.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    Put another way, if a customer buys an MKZ and puts premium fuel in it, they are wasting money and gaining nothing...

    Right?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That wasn't me.......
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The question is simply whether or not the computer can and will advance the timing when premium fuel is supplied. If it can and does, then you could see a performance increase. If the timing as already at max advance with 87 octane then using 91 won't help at all. It's all in the programming.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    IMO, if the car doesn't require Premium (91+) fuel - it's not really a premium car, because premium cars should perform at a higher level. Now, I don't HAVE to have such a car, but I'm just saying, the Zephyr is a nice Mercury to me. Maybe the MKZ will get to the Lincoln level, or what I used to consider the Lincoln level to be - American Luxury, no prop rods under the hood, and a zinger of an engine, which would drink - Premium Fuel for optimal performance.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    But the folks willing to pay for Premium fuel in return for premium performance are few and far between nowadays. Being advertised to run on regular will sell more cars. But if the car is capable of additional performance from higher octane they should also advertise that. Best of both worlds.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "But if the car is capable of additional performance from higher octane they should also advertise that. Best of both worlds"

    I think thats fair:
    07 Camry V6, 87 Octane: 268 horses, 248 foot pounds
    07 ES350, 91 or greater Octane: 272 horses, 252 foot pounds.

    An easy marketing distinction to put the ES just a hair higher than the Camry...

    ~alpha
  • cobcob Member Posts: 210
    The engine makes 250 hp on premium. You can burn whatever fuel you prefer the only difference is whether or not you get spark knock. Higher compression means premium fuel is required to avoid the knocking. All new fuel injection engines have direct injection, one injector for each cylinder there is nothing new about that. This engine cannot be super charged or turbo charged without reducing the compression ratio, unless you want to burn holes in pistons all day. By super/turdo charging you are increasing the cylinder pressure. There is nothing premium about this 3.5 250hp engine. Gm has been putting out old 3.8 supercharged engines with 240-260 hp for over a decade, no premium fuel required, no overhead cams just old fashioned push rod engine.

    F.Y.I since GM can't make a transmission that lasts, and Ford can't make a transmission that lasts, what do you expect to get when two groups of incompetent transmission designers get together. Stay away from this new 6 speed for a few years while the people who buy these cars can suffer thru the reliability testing on the street.
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    Hmm.

    Presuming that some additional intake or exhaust restrictions (to reduce noise?) do not enter into this particular comparison, the 272 / 268 HP = approx. 1.5% and the 252 / 248 = approx. 1.6%. Compared to (assuming reg = $2.20, mid = $2.30 and premium = $2.40 per gallon as it is currently here near Atlanta) paying approx. 9% more regular vs premium or 4+% more for Midgrade vs Premium gasoline.

    Hmm.

    YMMV.
    - Ray
    Expecting more than that amount of difference in rated HP & TQ . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    &#147;Gm has been putting out old 3.8 supercharged engines with 240-260 hp for over a decade, no premium fuel required, no overhead cams just old fashioned push rod engine.&#148; &#150; cob

    The current GM 3800 n/a (regular gas = OK, according to GM &#150; see below) versions in the Pontiac GP and / or the new Buick Lucerne = 197 HP.

    The s/c version (260 HP) in the GP = premium (ahem) suggested.

    - Ray

    &#147;Gasoline Octane
    If your vehicle has the 3800 V6 engine (VIN Code 2),
    use regular unleaded gasoline with a posted octane
    of 87 or higher. If the octane is less than 87, you may
    get a heavy knocking noise when you drive. If it is
    bad enough, it can damage your engine. A little pinging
    noise when you accelerate or drive uphill is considered
    normal. This does not indicate a problem exists or
    that a higher-octane fuel is necessary.
    If your vehicle has the 3800 Supercharged V6 engine
    (VIN Code 4), use premium unleaded gasoline with
    a posted octane of 91 or higher for best performance.
    You may also use middle grade or regular unleaded
    gasoline rated at 87 octane or higher, but your vehicle&#146;s
    acceleration may be slightly reduced. If the octane is
    less than 87, you may get a heavy knocking noise when
    you drive. If it is bad enough, it can damage your
    engine.&#148;

    - From page 5-5 of the 2005 Grand Prix Owner&#146;s Manual.
    2022 X3 M40i
  • exalteddragon1exalteddragon1 Member Posts: 729
    this is rediculous.

    The engine is, according to ford own website, rated at 250hp.

    THIS IS A LINCOLN? The japanese are in the process of revitalising there engines, and lincoln has an engine that is barely good enough. What will happen in the comming years, when toyotas 268 hp engine is given Direct inject, and tranversly mounted into the new 330 (well, 350 by then).

    Ford needed to release a more pwerful version, my guess is its not ready yet but lincoln is desperate for a power increase.

    The absolutley need more hp in this engine if it is to command any price premium whatsoever. So for the released numbers are not good news for ford.

    We should see the core brand go up in sales, though. 250 hp is enough on the ford/chevy/honda/toyota level. Just not on the luxury level, IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    All new fuel injection engines have direct injection, one injector for each cylinder there is nothing new about that.

    I don't think you understand direct injection. Direct injection means the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber. Today's normal fuel injection system injects the fuel into the air outside the combustion chamber where the two mix before being drawn into the combustion chamber together when the intake valve opens.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Why are you guys assuming the final engine will only put out 250 hp? Remember the current 3.0L? It was rated at a wimpy 210 hp in the pre-production literature, but ended up at 221 hp by the time it hit production. Remember the Ford GT? Rated at 500 but actually hit 550 in production. The Mustang GT is advertised at 300 hp but tests are showing it's really putting out around 320. I think the 2007 models will actually be advertised at 320.

    Actual output will be at least 260, maybe higher. On top of that it will be PZEV compliant which the competition can't match. It should also have a better torque curve.

    When the final numbers are released and real world test results are available and it seems underpowered THEN you can gripe about it. Right now I think it's much ado about nothing.
  • It cannot be much ado about nothing. Remember, Lincoln (like Ford) is in big trouble? Mercury has nothing new at Chicago? The world is marching on?

    Look at what Toyota is introducing in just the last three car shows. And their products are boring!!!

    Your PZEV comments are well-taken. Unfortunately, no one cares. Ford's very able work in this area is not selling cars. Nor is their over-reliance on the hybrid stuff they are doing. Small potatoes next to the engineering of Toyota, etc., PLUS, plus, styling still SELLS, and Ford/Mercury/Lincoln may do some good concepts, but they don't bring 'em to market. Comparing the Fusion to the 427 is just lame.

    Someone please, PLEASE tell Lincoln that the Continental concept would even enchant someone too young to know the 1960s fabulous Lincolns. It is just that good.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "All new fuel injection engines have direct injection, one injector for each cylinder there is nothing new about that.

    I don't think you understand direct injection. Direct injection means the fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber. Today's normal fuel injection system injects the fuel into the air outside the combustion chamber where the two mix before being drawn into the combustion chamber together when the intake valve opens."

    Correct, akirby - and thanks for clearing that up. I was going to, if you didn't. :P
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    And, I don't have confidence in Bill's strategy to revive Ford with Green Machines. It hearkens back to the Padded Dash and Seat Belts offered in 1956, that tanked Ford that year. The media makes a big deal about it, but frankly, I don't think most of the buying public cares how extra green their car is, as long as it's not a gross polluter. Gas mileage matters, performance REALLY matters, style matters, dependability matters, price matters. THEN, maybe, my Emissions Level matters, I don't know for sure. :blush:
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    GM can't make transmissions that last? Ford can't make transmissions that last? What bullhockey. I had 173,ooo trouble free miles on my 00 Impala LS when I traded it...total transmission repairs? ZERO. I did change the fluid as recommended. That was ALL.

    The 98 Grand Prix GTP before it had 73,ooo on it when I traded it for the Impala. Again, NO repairs. Just maintenance. The 95 LSS before that? Same story, traded at like 96,ooo miles.

    I have had several Ford products go more than 1oo,ooo with no tranny repairs.

    I have no idea where you get your info. You want to talk about auto trannies that don't last, ask about Honda. There are TONS of complaints with their automatics, especially in Civics.

    I have exactly ZERO concern about the new GM/Ford JV Six Speed.
  • scootertrashscootertrash Member Posts: 698
    Take a look back at posts 430-450.
    akirby and navigator89, I know you beat me up for criticizing the wonderful Zephyr name but it's pretty much unheard of for a car to get a name change 6 months after introduction. I just wish they listened to me sooner...
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It cannot be much ado about nothing. Remember, Lincoln (like Ford) is in big trouble? Mercury has nothing new at Chicago? The world is marching on?

    I agree that it doesn't sound good for Mercury - they just cancelled the Mercury version of the Freestyle.

    I also agree that nobody cares about emissions.

    But you're missing my point on the engine: the final version is almost certain to be 260+ based on past history. The 268 hp figure that Toyota is advertising could easily be reduced before production due to last minute changes. It will be competitive, especially with the 6 speed tranny. But you'll have to wait until production to get the final numbers.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    I am not saying the HP number is irrelevant but my guess is that most customers who test drive MKZ will find the real world performance pretty striking. The lower 1st gear and the added torque of the 3.5 will make off the line acceleration strong.

    Lexus is indicating a 6.8 second 0-60 for the ES350. MT and C&D usually beat manufacturer estimates. In any case, based on what the 3.0 could do, the MKZ will likely be in the mid 6s when tested by the enthusiast press - unless the AWD drains acceleration too much. That will blow away the original V8 LS and come close to the 280 HP 2003 and newer models. Shoppers coming out of ES300s, V6 Camrys, and the like will be impressed. We gearheads can feel .3 of a second in the quarter but many potential buyers probably can't.

    The additional refinement (assuming it is a reality) will also be very welcome. The 3.0 wasn't quite up to snuff in that category. I look forward to trying the MKZ. My largest issue at this point is the lack of manual transmission control. If a last second addition of SST were to happen, this car would be on my list of possibilities.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Based on what I've heard, SST isn't likely this year.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Member Posts: 815
    Agreed, I am not expecting SST this year, either. That aside, the enhancements on the MKZ versus the Zephyr will certainly make it more competitive in it's target market. My primary point is that regardless of the final HP number, the car will be competitively quick and the refinement complaints should be eliminated.
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