Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

cob · February 2006

Don't buy a truck you will be pressing your luck. Try googling 4L60E. And you will learn something new today.

heyjewel · February 2006

"they just cancelled the Mercury version of the Freestyle."

Where'd you hear that?

I'm beginning to think they just might dump Mercury. My first 2 cars were Mercs - a '64 Monterey convertible and a '67 Cyclone GT convertible 390/4barrel/4-on-the-floor as we used to call it.
I would miss Mercury, but in a way, they're already gone. The Marauder could have helped bring em back, but they screwed it up. Now they think they should market Mercurys to women. I guess there aren't enough women in the world who know Mercury is a car as well as stuff you don't want in your swordfish.

alpha01 · February 2006

My feeling is that Lexus is being intentionally conservative with the ES350 0-60 time in favor of saving the GS as the performance midsizer... for the time being, as it doesnt yet have the 3.5L engine (but will in the fall).

Theres no way the ES350 is going to need 6.8 seconds to hit 60; the Avalon weighs about the same, but uses, for lack of a better term- the "stupid" 5A, while the Lexus will use the much improved 6A (Toyota literature states that shifts occur up to 50% faster than the 5A). The Avalon has repeatedly posted between 6 and 6.2 when tested by C/D and MT, and even Consumer Reports (which does more of something like C/D's 'Street Start') got 6.6 seconds...

~alpha

heyjewel · February 2006

"Don't buy a truck you will be pressing your luck. Try googling 4L60E. And you will learn something new today. "

If you've got something to say, say it.

heyjewel · February 2006

"Agreed, I am not expecting SST this year, either. That aside, the enhancements on the MKZ versus the Zephyr will certainly make it more competitive in it's target market."

With that ridiculous "D-L" gear shift, no one but Grandma and Grandpa are going to want this car over the others in it's segment. The Z *might* bring younger buyers into the showroom, but I doubt they'll be leaving in a new car. Another IDIOTIC decision.

akirby · February 2006

"they just cancelled the Mercury version of the Freestyle."

Where'd you hear that?

Here:
link title

I don't think Mercury is dead but I do think they're (once again) changing some of the products that were previously planned. Chicago is typically where the Mercury products are introduced so the absence of any products there this week is a little scary.

Mercury is more important to the Lincoln dealers than to Ford's bottom line.

brucelinc · February 2006

Heyjewel, please don't think for a second that I am defending the D-L transmission. I called it a deal-breaker on the MKS forum (for me) and it is a deal-breaker for me on the MKZ, as well.

I am probably just as frustrated as you are. Maybe more so because I will be in the market soon and I have a long history with Ford/Lincoln products. I don't post all of my frustrations because you and others do a nice job of articulating many of problems.

I will say that the addition of the 3.5 is a step in the right direction. Will it be as quick as an Avalon or ES350? Probably not, but in this segment, the difference in 0-60 between 6.5 and 6 seconds flat probably won't make much difference in sales numbers. The serious performance buff has other options.

akirby · February 2006

I'm sure the MKS will have SST when it debuts (2 years is a long time to wait). As for the MKZ, the lack of SST will be a deal breaker for some but not very many. The general public does not care about such things. When I bought my LS in 1999 I used SST almost daily. After 3 years I was only using it once in a while and by the time I bought my Fusion last year I was just leaving it in D all the time anyway.

I like the feature and given a choice I'd get it but I agree that Lincoln won't lose many potential buyers by not having it for 07.

Remember - 800,000 people buy Accords and Camrys every year. Enthusiasts are a very small market segment by comparison.

hondacbr1k · February 2006

I just leased a Zephyr last week. I only put about 200 miles on as yet but the car has impressed me. I do miss the SST tranny but the 6 speed seems to have the right gearing...and I have one in my STS caddy. This is a unique car and stands out in the crowd. That's basically the reason I didn't cross shop anything. There are way too many TL's and G35's on the road. I could have waited for the MKZ but I am actually impressed by the 3.0 Duratec. It's got dual overhead cams, 24 valves all aluminum block and it's a proven engine. 221 HP is plenty unless you drag race your neighbors. Interior is a matter of taste but it is functional and nice looking. Car is super quiet, handles really well and the THX II stereo is awesome. And BTW, at $339 / month it was a great bargain.

nvbanker · February 2006

I agree with ya. The performance from the 3.0L isn't bad - but it's a big noisy and growly for a Lincoln, IMO. The new engine will be a welcome upgrade.

heyjewel · February 2006

"I do miss the SST tranny ... but I have one in my STS caddy."

Well, there ya go. Who needs SST in the Zephyr when you can buy a Cadillac as a second car and have the SST in there. Problem Solved! :>)

Seriously hondadude, enjoy your Z. I have the same engine in my LS and at 70K it runs like new. Since the Z is lighter than the LS (at least I assume it is, haven't checked) you'll likely get better performance than I do. But I don't need a Caddy to control the shifts: my LS has a Getrag 5 speed manual in it!

Noisy and growly? Maybe a wee bit, but with my Magnaflo cat-backs, I hardly notice :>)

escape15208 · February 2006

I really like the MKZ/Zephyr (saw it recently at the local Pittsburgh Auto Show.) I also like the looks and AWD option of the lexus IS. Anybody hazzard a guess at to how the AWD option on the MKZ would add? As much as I like my Escape, I's like something with more presence and better handling for my next car. Anyone who's been trhough PA in winter knows the roads are holey and slick in the winter, as well as hilly!
BMW 3 series xi's seem a dime a dozen, and I like that the Lincoln isn't a me-too design (at least not on the inside.) The IS was nice, but a bit sterile. Of course, I've only sat in these at a car show, I ahven't driven them. Oddly, I've not seen any direct comparisons with the MKZ/Zephyr & the IS, which seems to match it better for price.

cob · February 2006

Both GM and Ford have transmission problems. You were fortunate enough to own a few vehicles without problems. Based on your information you put about average miles on cars. You were lucky on the GM 3.8 for not having to change leaking intake manifold gaskets. The transmissions in GM trucks and vans from 1996 -2002 have a very high faliure rate.

My point from earlier was that Ford's new engine is no technical marvel. There is no new technology here, they are just trying to catch up with Honda/Toyota but still cannot pass them up. Not only do Honda and Toyota get more power out of the same displacement they also get better fuel economy. 250 horsepower out of a v6 is nothing new and someone out there thinks by adding premium fuel you get more horsepower. The gas stations would love it if this were true, they could get $.25 more per gallon for nothing.

F.Y.I the Fusion/Millan/Zephyr are the only Ford vehicles getting the D-L shifters. The Edge and other new vehicles have D-3-2-1 or D-4-3-2-1 with OD lockout buttons. The reason for the D-L was cost savings.

akirby · February 2006

a) 250 is a conservative estimate - it should be at least 260 by the time it hits production. Ford is being very careful not to overstate horsepower. The mustang is rated at 300 hp but it's putting out at least 320. The Ford GT was rated at 500 hp pre-production but ended up at 550.

b) The 250+ is on 87 octane. You don't get the extra hp by using premium fuel. You get the extra hp by advancing the timing and when you do that you need to use premium fuel to avoid knocking. So an engine tuned to use premium will generally have more power than the same engine tuned to use regular.

c) the reason for the D-L shifter was indirectly cost savings in that they chose not to make a midstream change, but it was originally designed to work with the CVT transmission both in the Fusion and the 500. When the CVT was ditched for the Fusion they chose not to change the shifter.

priggly · February 2006

For anyone who has the new Zephyr with Navigation, does it function well? Is it accurate? Any particular foibles?

Is the engine power of the 3.0 Duratec adequate in most situations in the real world? How is highway passing power at 70-80 mph?

Thanks.

flasvt · February 2006

I would wait until de MKZ is out and then buy a Zephyr. I am sure the rebates will be fantastic. I don't mind the 221 HP and I don't want the extra weight of the AWD. But this is just hypotetical as I am in love with the MKX.

nvbanker · February 2006

The Navigation is excellent in all aspects.

fsmmcsi · February 2006

Yes, the 4L60E in my 1996 Impala SS completely failed twice in 110,000 miles, and I never took it down a drag strip, although some people in the Impala club did race and had better luck with it. I spent over $4,000 on that transmission.

As for Ford, the four speed automatic in our 1994 Thunderbird V8 needed two separate repairs totaling $700 or more.

priggly · February 2006

Hi nvbanker, thanks for your input.

How about the passing power of the car on the highway? Is it commendable?

Thanks.

nvbanker · February 2006

There, I can't help ya. Only drove it around the block. Just to check it out. It's too small for me. What did impress me, was that it has everything you can want on the car. I liked that. Performance, I didn't check.

cob · February 2006

FYI. This is an except from Edmunds review of the new Kia Sedona minivan. Note: The hp gain on premium over regular fuel is 2 hp. I wouldn't be expecting a whole lot more out of the Lincoln engine. Is $.25 per gallon worth 2 hp? You wouldn't even notice while driving. I do agree that advanced timing and higher compression require premium. But, if the gain is minimal than why bother if it will run on 87 octane without knocking.

The new 3.8-liter V6 also has the best power stats in the minivan segment. Gas up with premium and it delivers 244 horsepower and 253 pound-feet of torque. That's exactly as much horsepower as the Odyssey's V6 along with 13 more lb-ft of torque. Fill the tank with regular and Kia says you'll still get 242 hp and 251 lb-ft.

akirby · February 2006

The difference depends totally on the engine and how it's tuned - there's no way it's worth the difference for 2 hp or 2 lb/ft or torque. In other engines the premium tuning might yield 10 or 15 additional hp. I wasn't advocating actually using premium if the engine is designed for regular anyway - just pointing out the difference between published HP numbers between engines/vehicles/mfrs.

06zephyr · February 2006

the navigation works extremely well.....the voice even tells you street names rather then "turn left 200 ft"
i dont understand the issue with the 250 hp..the 221 is fine and passing at highway speeds is no problem...will 29 hp really matter that much?? the only issue is that the engine noise is a bit loud when you punch the pedal for acceleration..though with the radio on you really dont hear it that much
the ride comfort is wonderful and outside noise is really at a minimum
with the new "zephyr" of next year im sure there will be a nice discount towards the end of this year if you can wait

pnewby · February 2006

Haven't heard from ANT14 in over a week, hope he hadn't been transfered to Atlanta or Wixom lately. Still wishing for factory participation like jroger19 in the "good old" LS days. It was the major reason I bought an early LS.

brucelinc · February 2006

Yep, I would like to hear from that rascal ANT, myself. Maybe he could shed some new light on the production date of the MKS......or not.

The transmission God has been on the TC forum recently, though.

nvbanker · February 2006

Ant's all over the Fusion forum - I think that was one of his projects.....

ANT14 · February 2006

I've been busy renovating a rental house (it's a mental sabatical for me to work with my hands on homes) so I haven't had much time to check in, but I have seen some forums like MKS, MKX, and Fusion get quite busy with 20+ posts. Akirby has been educating people quite a bit... BY the time I have anything to add, someone else already has

MKS production date has yet to be finalized, mainly because the "Way Ford-Ward" plan re-routed it elsewhere. Your looking at 2007.

brucelinc · February 2006

Your looking at 2007

I understand it hasn't been finalized and I am not trying to hold you to a hard date. But....are you pretty comfortable saying the report in Automotive News indicating a 2/2008 date may be overly pessimistic?

Sorry, guys, I know this is not the MKS forum but there have been some undies in a wad over the seemingly long delay in getting the MKS in production.

ANT14 · February 2006

Yeah that's pessemistic. Personally speaking...out of the numerous automotive publications out there, Automotive News comes about 70% correct, on such information. Wards is up there as well, everyone else I hold accountable at 20-30% (like the ones you read at the newstands I wont mention).

Wngine production, (and the number needed for that vehicle, the "Fairlane" concept, and 3 other vehicles is really the hurdle which needs to be solved soon.

hondacbr1k · February 2006

Priggly, the Duratec 3.0 @ 221HP power is excellent in 60-80 passing situations. I am very impressed with the engine. Very smooth even at the limit. Has a nice sound to it too. You should not be dissapointed unless your other car is a v8 or much more powerful.

akirby · February 2006

It's as quick as my 2000 3.9L LS V8.

rscherb · February 2006

I believe that if they decide to produce the Fairlane, and it doesn't show any glitches, it will be a huge hit for Ford.

fsmmcsi · February 2006

ANT14 - Yes, work on buildings or yards is a nice mental change of pace from business work. These car discussions also serve that function for me. Plus, I really do want Ford to suceed, since they are so close to having a wonderful product lineup, and since they have such a long and good history.

Updating the Zephyr to the MKZ seems to be strong evidence that Ford has decided to to move much faster and much more aggressively than in the past.

ANT14 · February 2006

Well definately "Launch and forget" won't be occuring with vehicles anymore. That was Fords biggest mistake in the past.

pnewby · February 2006

This one item would be the biggest single change Ford can make. How many "best in class" vehicles have been allowed to whither on the vine? Lincoln LS, Ford Ranger, Sport Trak are just a few recent examples. Taurus could have been improved after the disasterous oval fiasco, and the name could have been used instead of one of the new names. Even the Town Car lost it's place due to lack of interest from Ford.

If they really do this, and use the internet/customer relationship to their advantage, then they have a chance. I can't begin to tell you how much difference it made to have an advocate (J. Rogers), at LIncoln, while I had repeated early release and dealer issues. Rather than being remembered as the "worst" car I ever had, I think of it as my favorite.

[Deleted User] · February 2006

I think some of the geniuses at Ford became convinced that they could keep using the same body shell over and over (with front, rear and interior modifications) because they were successful in doing so with their best seller, the F150, for something like 17 years (before they totally redesigned it in 1997).

Unfortunately, now that they know this may not be the best move anymore, they still have a "new" 2006 Explorer using the 2002 body shell, a 2007 Navigator (and Expedition) using the 1998 body shell, and even the "all new" 2007 Sport Trac is still using the 2000 doors, roof, windows, etc. It will take several more years for them to work this stupid policy out of their vehicle fleet.

scootertrash · February 2006

And don't forget the 1982 Ford Ranger they are still selling; well, trying to sell.

I think it just demonstrates their fundamental contempt for the consumer. "Aw, just throw a new grille on it and they won't know the difference"

akirby · February 2006

You're missing an important concept. The small pickup market is shrinking. So it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to make a huge investment to update a vehicle that's in a shrinking market segment. It's smarter to spend the money to develop new vehicles like the Edge and enter new markets like the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr and 500/Montego/Freestyle.

[Deleted User] · February 2006

That is a point. But there is another point. Rangers were still selling very well in 1998, when Ford last did a major update to it. If they had also updated the conservative, long-in-the-tooth body shell in 1998 (along with the good changes they did underneath), they would not now be trying to sell such a pteradactyl when Chevy, GM, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan all have since updated their small pickups. As it was then, most people could not tell a 1997 from a 1998. Now they have equal difficulty sorting a 2006 from a 1998. It did not have to be this way, even given the shrinking compact pickup market.

I do hope Lincoln has a plan for the 2010 MKZ that includes a new body shell. The present Zephyr and MKZ are EXACTLY the same car (recent hype notwithstanding), except for two thin strips of chrome added to the front brightwork and (of course) the 3.5 liter. Thus, the 2006 Zephyr is in reality also the 2006 MKZ. By 2010, it will have put in its time, in its present guise. Does Lincoln really know that? Do they really get it? I certainly hope so, because by then I will be in the market again, and I would love to buy a Lincoln this size that could stand against any of its competition.

poodog13 · February 2006

Went to the 2006 Pgh Auto Show this weekend. I went in with the thought that my next vehicle would be either a Mercury Milan or Acura TL, entirely depending on budget (obviously these cars don't compete directly).

I hadn't given much thought to a Zephyr because I don't generally like to pay more for same vehicle plus nicer interior. By the same logic, I'd almost never consider Audi or Lexus versions of entry class counterparts.

I have to say though, Lincoln won me over on this one. They did a great job putting the Zephyr together in fit and finish, and the six speed auto-tranny is a big bonus. I'm now considering the Zephyr as a solid option compared to the Acura TL, while I don't expect the Zephyr to perform the same, they represent very different but very interesting alternatives at around the same price point.

nvbanker · February 2006

I don't believe that's all true, gregg..... For sure, the Navigator isn't using the 98 skin, even on the 03's and beyond. The 07 will be a different size - so no chance even.

driverdm · February 2006

"new" 2006 Explorer using the 2002 body shell, a 2007 Navigator (and Expedition) using the 1998 body shell, and even the "all new" 2007 Sport Trac is still using the 2000 doors, roof, windows, etc.

How about the "New" Camry still being based on the older platform. How about the "New" Highlander being based on the same. How about the "New" RX being based on that same old platform as well. How about the "New" ES350 based on that same platform.

How about the "new" Accord not having a completely new chasis either. The "New" Ridgeline, the "New" Odyssey, the "New" Pilot as well.

It may seem like Ford and GM are the only ones that do it, but more or less they are the only ones that get caught. It is like people speeding in a big group and two people get pulled over.

scootertrash · February 2006

"I don't believe that's all true, gregg..... For sure, the Navigator isn't using the 98 skin, even on the 03's and beyond. The 07 will be a different size - so no chance even."

Sorry NV, they use the same body shell with a different front clip as a 1997 Expedition. The doors and all the glass are all interchangable.

"You're missing an important concept. The small pickup market is shrinking. So it doesn't make sense from a business standpoint to make a huge investment to update a vehicle that's in a shrinking market segment"

Maybe the market is shrinking for them because their product stinks? The american car companies tend to think the customer will be fooled by a new color, a new name or a revised grille. The Japanese companies improve their products every few years and always strive for excellence.

Who's winning?

[Deleted User] · February 2006

Yes, nvbanker and driverdm, my comments were not about "belief," or about using the same platform. You miss my point, which scootertrash makes better than I did.

Nothing at all wrong with reengineering or updating or restyling the same platform. But you cannot, for example, take a door from any previous Camry generation and bolt it on the update. You can however take a 1998 front door from a Navigator and bolt it on to a 2007 and it will close into the space perfectly. Same with a 1993 Ranger door into a 2006. Same with a 1991 Explorer into a 2001. (The 2002 Explorer actually changed the body shell--but the 2002 again will fit into the 2007 opening).

Heavily revising or changing the front clips or tailgates is not at all like the change GM has done with every generation of their big utes, or what Toyota has done with their model changes. Modifying the cowl, windshield and side glass is pricey, but most companies do it for the integrity of the design, if nothing else.

"Fixing" the 1996 ovoid (weird) Taurus by modifying the rear roofline, trunk and front clip was a definite improvement, but it was still stuck with the cowl, side glass and side sheet metal of the ovoid monster, so at least from some angles, it still didn't look all of a piece.

Still, the fact that the two of you insist you do not see the same body shell where it still is may mean Ford is on to something...

akirby · February 2006

The MARKET is shrinking - period. More people are buying other types of vehicles. Heavy investment might increase the percentage of Ranger sales but the actual number of units sold would probably continue to decrease.

It's simply a matter of business priorities.

akirby · February 2006

Maybe you and the other 3 people in the entire country who care whether the doors are the same should just buy a Chevy and be done with it.

[Deleted User] · February 2006

Meow.

I don't care for Chevys.

In the recent past, Ford brass have admitted that styling changes have been too conservative--and that similar changes in the pipeline would unfortunately continue to be so (such as the 2006 Explorer and 2007 Navigator/Expedition). Explorer sales have not received the expected bump. On the other hand, the 2007 big GM utes are doing better than forecast. Maybe I am wrong (it has happened more times than I even know!), but I cannot help but think that a product that looks truly fresh has a better chance of picking up sales.

This body shell recycling had as much to do with decimating Freestar?Windstar sales, for example, as the shrinking minivan market itself. Still, Ford must make the best of it and I'm sure they will.

heyjewel · February 2006

In another thread I admitted to driving a Honda Accord Hybrid yesterday. Going to keep the LS though.

Posting here because it was a Chevy-Honda dealer and while there I looked at a few Chevys, including the new Tahoe. I owned a '97 Tahoe for 3 years. The only GM vehicle I've ever owned. It was a fine, reliable vehicle with a powerful engine. But the interior kinda sucked. And it had more body roll than a bowling ball. Well, they finally have the interior handled. The new ones have an excellent interior. Not quite a Navigator, but heads above previous Tahoes. The exterior is better too, in a more evolutionary way. Sticker was $48K for fairly well loaded one. A bit of an 'ouch' there.

It was interesting to walk around this dealership and compare the Chevys to the Hondas. The Chevs seem to have quite a price advantage now. Can get a Malibu for about the same as a Civic. An Equinox for $8000 less than a Pilot and an Avalanche for about the same as a Ridgeline (ugh).

That little HHR is a nice alternative to the PT Cruiser too. OK, nuff Chevy talk.

tiger16 · February 2006

Picked up my Zephyr on 2/18. So far, I have a favorable opinion about it except for one thing - the noise coming from the blower fan. It's unbelievably loud and it never shuts up! When you first turn on the auto temp, it's so loud you can barely have a conversation. Even at 65 mph on I-95 with the radio on you can still hear it whooshing away. After about 25 minutes, the fan goes from #6 or 7 speed to #2 but, no lower and you can still hear it. My old Maxima's fan never shut off either. It would eventually go to #1 speed but, you could no longer hear it at #2. Knowing that this will be a year round thing since the fan also runs the A/C, this is quite disturbing. I find this inexcusable in a $33,000 car. Last night I found myself searching the internet for info on the new Lexus ES350 and I haven't even had the Zephyr for a week! I'm in my car 2 hrs a day (long commute) so this noise is very annoying. Any suggestions and/or similar problem?

scootertrash · February 2006

The out-of-touch arrogance of "You and the other 3 people who care if the doors are interchangeable" is why the American car companies are dying from their self inflicted wounds.

The Explorer, Ford's Golden Child, has laid an egg in the market. Despite it's many upgrades, it didn't fool anyone because it looks just like the old one with a new grille.

The Ranger, which is mostly from 1982 and partially from 1993 is nearly dead, except for the Phone company fleet, because no one cares to buy a new 20 year old truck. Despite it's many upgrades, it didn't fool anyone because it looks just like the old one with a new grille.

The Navigator, the original and one time undisputed king of luxury SUV's is largely ignored. Despite it's many upgrades, it didn't fool anyone because it looks just like the old one with a new grille.

Ford is surrendering the minivan market. The Windstar is one of the biggest flops in memory. Despite it's many upgrades and a fancy new name, it didn't fool anyone because it looks just like the old one with a new grille.

The Focus is basically exactly the same as the one introduced in late 1999. There is an all new, vastly improved Focus sold in the rest of the world, but Ford thinks Americans don't notice and don't deserve the better one, and they wonder why their "market is shrieking"

Crown Victoria/Lincoln Town car. Is Jimmy Carter still president?

Here's the 1999 LS. We'll produce it unchanged for 7 years and then act surprised when sales fall off.

They did introduce the 500 and Freestlye, but designed these vehicles to be so bland that they already look like 10 year old designs.

Can you name a Honda/Toyota/Nissan that gets pumped out for 10-15 years? No.

The Japanese focus on making a fresh, excellent product, and know the sales will follow, and they do.

Ford emphasizes a new grille design and thinks Americans will be fooled.

Check their slice of the pie. It didn't work.

Lincoln Zephyr/MKZ

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