Luxury Performance Sedans

richcream · March 2005

I agree completely with the sunshade thing....who's idea was THAT?

Also - watching DVD's in the back of cars is overrated, especially when you have to crane your neck to look up at a flipdown screen (have you ever sat in the first row of a movie theater?...can you say chiropractor?)

I would like to get just the rear power seats and sunshades though, and I think soon enough Infiniti will offer them a la carte.

Hey does anyone have any info on the matte wood? How it holds up vs. laquered? I can't recall a car that used it, at least not in such abundance as the M.

lexusguy · March 2005

Actually, the Merc CLS500 has a HUGE slab of matte wood finish across the entire dash, Jag style. (Glossy finish is optional).

jrock65 · March 2005

The 7 series uses a lot of matte wood as well.

lexusguy · March 2005

Matte seems to be the new way to do wood trim.

merc1 · March 2005

I think the matte look makes it look and feel like real wood. Aston Martin does this too in the DB9. A lot of wood is so well polished to the point of looking fake, the matte treatment solves this problem.

M

lexusguy · March 2005

I agree, a quality matte finish can give it a furniture look and feel, instead of typical "car wood". For example, the trim in the final run of the XJS was much more natural looking than the XK8. The XK certainly has a lot more of it, but it has about 8,000 coats of gloss that just isnt necessary.

merc1 · March 2005

Whats funny is that I hadn't even noticed that in the 7-Series because I've been so turned off by the car since 2002, but yet there it is - matte finish woods in several grains/colors.

M

lexusguy · March 2005

And every one of them is ugly.

merc1 · March 2005

I know you dislike the 7-Series, but calling the wood ugly....my goodness..lol!

M

lexusguy · March 2005

I mean the dash design is ugly, and the refresh didnt fix that. The refresh didnt really fix anything. I think I actually liked it better BEFORE they updated the styling. That horizontal stripe seems to be the "BMW look" now for interiors. Cant say I like it.

rayainsw · March 2005

Cadillac STS AWD, but then I found out it was not offered except with a bunch of other stuff that raised the price to over $62,000.

I agree concerning Packaged Groups being the only way to buy certain options  and required before one can purchase other options. Very annoying.

Since one can now order an STS V8 1SF with AWD, the actual minimum MSRP = $61,685 ($60,685 + $1K Gas Guzzler Tax, I believe) perhaps suggesting that Caddy is moving in the right direction. . .?

- Ray
In favor of more complete customization flexibility . . .

tayl0rd · March 2005

Their board has been shut down and it's hardly ever mentioned anywhere. Is it that much of a disappointment or are the owners having too much fun driving them? Their board never even broke 1000 posts, and the posts that were made were pretty lame. Not much talk about the performance, likes, or dislikes.

What happened?

qbrozen · March 2005

isn't that a really limited edition car? if so, then you figure you have a low number of owners out there, then only a small percentage who visit edmunds, makes for few posts. once those few owners see so little activity in their discussion, they really have no incentive to come back. just a theory.

tayl0rd · March 2005

True enough, but the vast majority of us don't own the cars whose discussions we participate in. Just wondering why there's no buzz with the CTS-V.

qbrozen · March 2005

well, that's true. i participate in a number of discussions about vehicles I don't own (heck, there's barely any talk about my cars. lol.).

markcincinnati · March 2005

I have owned an Audi S6 and have lusted after an S4 but have found little action on the S4 board, at least here on the town hall, although there are other VERY ACTIVE sites (non edmunds) out here in other cyber space.

I don't know what it is but some of these boards (not this one) are really inane or all they want to talk about is how to get another $100 off the deal they're trying to make.

Edmunds, thus far, seems to attract a, shall we say, more thoughtful participant. Perhaps the average age here on edmunds is a point or three higher, I don't really know.

But when I participate elsewhere (in Acura, Audi and VW for example) my sense is the participants are different somehow -- different, not better, not worse (well sometimes they are when all they want to discuss is how to negotiate for a set of free floor mats, or whatever).

Edmunds, for example seems -- to me -- to have few people who modify their cars. The Audi turbos, leap to my mind as cars that are often chipped and have aftermarket wheels and tires and suspension bits put on them. Edmunds participants often seem to like to keep their cars stock -- this is not a bad thing to me, it may be to you. I have modded (about $2,500 worth) my 2003 Audi allroad -- there is "no action" over on the allroad town hall that would merit bringing that subject up, even though I would be pleased as punch to pontificate.

Finally, even though edmund's participants are generally civil, there do seem to be far more "arguments" disagreements -- whatever here than on some of the more "anything goes" cites.

I find that aspect odd and since I am, by education (not vocation) a sociologist, I sometimes wonder why people will argue till the cows come home that the new RL does or does not look like an Accord or that the BMW a la Bangle look is ugly or classic or whatever.

Once I find out that you like Acrua or Audi or Lexus or BMW, I may want to enter into lively discourse with you to make my point, but rarely am I intending or attempting to proselytize. The exception to that is, I am on a crusade to stamp out two wheels driven vehicles in favor of AWD all the time! But even then, if you insist that RWD or FWD rules, I accept that since it is your money you will be spending.

These BLOG sites are amazing, I have learned a lot and am glad they are here.

Why CTS-V folks don't play here is an unknown to me -- maybe they all hang out somewhere else, I dunno, I've never tried to track them down.

richcream · March 2005

While we're discussing the barely-active boards, I think it's worth mentioning the Audi A6 board.

With regard to the 2005 A6, the activity on the board is minimal, especially considering all the praise and heightened expectations surrounding this vehicle. This isn't, as mark pointed out, like the limited edition CTS-V...this is the car that is supposed bring Audi to the forefront (at least in North America), and put the screws to BMW's 5 series.

Maybe Audi owners/enthusiasts just aren't the Edmunds-forum-opining type, maybe they stick to Audi exclusive sites. Anyone else notice this?

liferules · March 2005

"With regard to the 2005 A6, the activity on the board is minimal, especially considering all the praise and heightened expectations surrounding this vehicle."

We're happy with our cars, have no issues, and are browsing the other boards for any good discussions! Honestly, I think we owners are comfortable with our cars and don't have a lot of questions or issues to discuss on the board. I love driving it, enjoy the luxurious interior, and enjoy talking about it to others.

warthog · March 2005

There you have it: Nirvana from Ingolstadt! No discussion necessary.

richcream · March 2005

"No issues"? I guess it's safe to say that you haven't visited the "Audi A6: Owner's Problems & Solutions" board.

The problems discussed there notwithstanding, I'm sure that the vast majority of Audi owners are more than satisfied with their cars. Personally, I like the A6 very much and it would have earned my dollar were the 3.2 just a bit quicker.

The point that I was trying to make, however, wasn't that Audi owners are in any way dissappointed with their vehicles. What I was getting at is that the people in these forums (who discuss a whole array of cars) don't seem to be buzzing about the A6...a car that is praised in most every review, has won several awards, and is supposed to be Audi's best answer EVER to BMW's 5 Series.

I subscribe to the A6 board, among others, and I just find it curious that for a car so seemingly great (the 3.2's sluggishness notwithstanding) there is so little excitement there. Maybe it will pick up when the A6's with the re-tooled quattro and the 280hp V6 that the VW Passat is getting start to roll out (supposedly in '06.) Then I might just have to become a quietly satisfied Audi owner.

lexusguy · March 2005

I would say many of the arguments here mirror those of those un-moderated sites, but I'd much rather be here than there. I have yet to see a "MY CAMARO CAN *string of explatives deleted* RIP all your *string of explatives deleted* luxury boats to shreds" in this or any of the forums that I visit on Edmunds, and one of those posts is one too many for me to stay at a forum.

markcincinnati · March 2005

We are in agreement!

kyfdx · March 2005

Or:

"Dood... you have to buy a stick.. can't believe ur gettin a slushy!!"

"Um.. I just wanted to know if you like the Xenons?"

lexusguy · March 2005

What I find most comical about those forums is all of the swearing and general child like behavior coming from people that supposedly "own" everything form 3 million horsepower Mustangs and Camaros to 911 GT2s, to Skyline Blitz GT-Rs. There's always a US vs. Germany vs. Japan war going on, but you just know most of them actually DRIVE a Cavalier, or maybe an '89 Sentra.

jjacura · March 2005

Even for a neophyte these Edmunds forums appear to be a grade above. I mostly audit this one because of the obvious talent, yours included, and I enjoy the read. I might also learn something worthwhile. Thanks a lot, it's almost like a course, or study project, and if one has the time it's great and also free.

markcincinnati · March 2005

Awww you Acura and Lexus guys don't know nuttin' -- it's gotta be German or it just ain't real.

Seriously, I never, ever thought I would look at a Japanese car as a serious competitor to virtually anything from Der Fatherland (I'm part Irish and part German -- so says me mum who is O'roark and Minnich, don't ya know) or perhaps even from Europe.

Now, however, I am, despite some remaining trepidation that the new M's are just fancy Nissans, slowy but steadily movin' East.

I looked at the Bourbon interior this morning on a new M and it was, "instant tang!"

Yea these are fun and free -- but my 3 million horsepressure Audi will eat your Lexus or Acura or fill in the blank for lunch and spit out the bones.

Oh, what the heck, that kinda talk just doesn't come naturally or even fit here, for that matter.

Happy St. Patrick's day! Hic!

liferules · March 2005

Rich,

I do subscribe to the A6: Problems and Solutions, but there aren't any C6 problems, just older models that I don't know a lot about.

I personally have the 3.2 V6 and really like it. I drove the V8 and liked it but didn't feel I needed it nor the expensive gas bills. I'm impressed with the pep of the direct injection engine and low-end torque. In fact, I haven't seen another car listed in the top of this column with a lower torque. Sorry you didn't pick the A6, but as you said, maybe there's an Audi in the future. I can't say I'm one of those "I bleed Audi circles" kind of people, though, as I really like the new M's from Infiniti as well as the luxury of the new Lexus G's.

Still happy with the A6, though.

richcream · March 2005

Check out posts #234, #249, and #262 on the A6 Owner's Problems & Solutions board. Some problems with the 2005 A6 include malfunctioning battery indicators, advanced key, passenger mirrors, memory seats, and xenon lights...and other things like shuddering and stalling...you know, little things like that.

I'm sure these are more or less isolated problems - I think the posts involve only 3 or 4 owners (there are bad apples in every crop of cars, especially first year models.)

I'm happy to hear you are enjoying your A6, I really like the styling and the interior...classy and refined for sure. Also, the quiet ride is a definite advantage over Infiniti's M. If Audi does put out a faster A6 it will definitely be on my short list.

Best of luck.

tayl0rd · March 2005

Those are the same type problems the RL is having, almost verbatim; except the RL has even more problems. When you throw a ton of electronics on a brand new car, bugs WILL occur; though they almost seem excessive in the case of the RL.

liferules · March 2005

Richcream,

I should have replied to some of them, but they are kind of silly. For example, in post 262, the person just bought their car the night before and couldn't get the mirror to tilt down when reversing. It is well known (had they read the owners manual rather than posting a question on the forums) that you have to have the mirror switch turned to the side for the mirror to tilt down when in reverse (something I don't like anyway).

As to the other 2, you've got me! There are some problems with a rare car, and as you said, likely isolated problems. Certainly less than those posted on other new car forums, including the RL (another nice car, I might add).

I agree that for the money, the V6 A6 should be faster. It doesn't really matter that much to me and I'm happy with all the other features, but I agree that a lot of the forum readers are fixated on the 0-60 time (not that any of use drive like that... I hope...). As others have said, it looks weird to go from a 2.7T which is the outgoing model and went in <7 seconds, to a newer model that is slower...

Best wishes.

lexusguy · March 2005

I think Audi's plan for the new 3.1L direct injection 6 was really to replace the A4 and A6 3.0, rather than the 2.7T. If the Passat's 280hp VR6 makes it into the A6, which it most likely will, that will be the real successor to the 2.7T.

markcincinnati · March 2005

I suspect that your assumption about Audi's plan is accurate.

This is just so marketing crazy though. You have your outgoing 2.7T juiced up, tarted up and hot rodded up visually AND viscerally by making the last batch of A6 2.7T's "S-Line trim" AND by boosting the horsepower and torque. Then you go into your Audi dealer -- to this very day and there sitting on the floor next to the new A6's are two old A6's (one a V8 and one an S-Line.) You look at a very nicely equipped S-Line and the MSRP is just south of $50K and you look at a new A6 3.2 and it is -- just south of $50K (or maybe just north of $50K).

Now drive both of them -- the new guy is certainly more upscale, but man can that "old" S-Line scoot and frankly I think it (subjectively, at least) handles better too, since the S-Line did carry a sport suspension and wheels and tires to match.

If the 2.7T could have quietly faded away (shhhhhhh be vewy qwiet, I'm twackin' wabbits) and all that was left was the A6 3.0 and the higher MSRP'd A6 4.2 -- the relative sluggishness of the new A6 3.2 would have been -- what was I talking about?

The performance numbers are left brained things sometimes. We see 0-60 @ 7.0 seconds (in a magazine review) for a $50K car -- the new A6 3.2 --(and the author of the review has the temerity to remind us that the quickest A6 in the land -- quicker even than the V8 A6 -- WAS the similarly priced "10 best, allstar, bla,bla,bla" 2.7T A6 S-Line) when the "number to play" seems to be ANY number less than 7.0 seconds -- and, well, what are we to think?

Wouldn't a lowering of the final drive ratio in the new A6 3.2 by 2 or 3 percent have done the job of getting the car to 60 in 6.9 seconds?

I know that .1 seconds is immaterial (as a practical matter) for most of us who don't drag race our $50K cars -- but, but, but, it is just the fact that it is there IN PRINT that my brand new $50,000 car was -- gulp -- flaccid!

Oh the humanity.

Y'all know I've been going on about my concerns that Audi has lost its touch (speaking mostly here of marketing their great, mostly, new products).

This 0-60 in a published 7.1 seconds or 7.0 seconds is / was in my estimation a marketing decision. That slight tweak of the final drive ratio MIGHT have detracted 1MPG from the "around town" milage -- especially if you WERE drag racing at the stoplights.

But that is not the point. "I want my new $50,000 toy to be quicker or as quick as the rest of the pack and frankly it would be even better if the new guy was at least equal to the old guy that the new guy will most likely be compared to." Whew!

If I had a stack of $100 bills THIS high, I'd buy one of these new A6 3.2's and pay someone smarter than I to put a shorter final drive in it and then publish the before and after numbers -- better yet, I'd send them to someone at Audi of America and hope that they didn't think I was just some rich nut case that had more money and time than sense.

Which, come to think of it, if I did have that stack of $100 bills and the inclination to void the warranty and all that kind of thing on a brand new perfectly good $50,000 car -- I probably would justify such a conclusion. . . .

My wife would never let me do that anyway.

And all that jazz.

markcincinnati · March 2005

Well, I am now officially on Audi's BLACK LIST, I imagine -- the March 14th Business Week magazine article where I am conspicuously named as a loyal Audi owner who feels Audi has lost its touch is "out there," (for all to see) my dealer hears my confused and frustrated rants and raves and even my level-headed lawyer wife thinks my arguments are not the railings of a crazed man and sees my thoughts are mostly "with merit" and "without prejudice."

But, check this out --

We test drove three cars recently: 1 Audi, 1 BMW, 1 Mercedes -- they were all within $1,000 of each other and all about $45,000. Although she has NOT OFFICIALLY pulled the trigger, I'm right now taking bets that my lovely and talented wife will be placing a deposit down on a custom ordered BMW (to be delivered in 75 days from Munich) that will be $100 less per month than a new Audi A4 and (in this instance) have more features and can be had with a stick shift (which the A4 3.2 at this time cannot).

She wanted a car with full screen sat nav -- both the BMW and the Audi offer it (finally).

She wanted a 6 speed manual -- only the BMW offers a choice of auto or manual.

She wanted a peppy 6 cylinder engine -- both Audi and BMW offer this.

She wanted Bluetooth for her new phone so we don't have to buy ANOTHER $995 Audi phone circa 1999 (vintage) that has to essentially go with the outgoing car since it is only able to be plugged into an Audi cradle even though it was supposed to be portable (the 2 2003 $995 phones will NOT port to new Audis let alone another brand -- did I mention they were $995 EACH?).

OK OK OK. Deep breath.

Here is the kicker -- a new Audi A4 without two features: stick shift and bluetooth is $44,750, the BMW similarly equipped is $45,065. The 36 month lease payment on the Audi at our FRIENDLY DEEP DISCOUNT 'cause we bought so many cars there DEALER is (drum roll) $684.00 a month (36 months 15,000 miles per year no money down). At the BMW dealer the brand new, custom ordered to be built according to her exact specifications car is (another drum roll) $585.62 per month same terms!

This is a marketing decision plain and simple -- Audi is (or soon will) letting the business go to BMW -- and believe me the discount at our Audi dealer was more than fair, it was downright generous, but the Marketing Wizards at Audi (AG or America, I don't know which) are not pricing the cars via the financing arm to move.

OK this ONE example may not make or break Rome -- the point is my wife loves Audis. The BMW she is leasing -- or probably will be -- is All Wheel Drive -- this is a more or less apples to apples decision. This is NOT a left over car, this car hasn't even been built yet and it will be at that price and at that lease rate be built and delivered in about 75 days and the deal is firm (I am 99% certain she will take the deal in 3 hours and 45 minutes from now!) I am not in horror about her selection, the BMW is beautiful, it is black and has a terracotta leather interior, sport package, premium package, cold weather package, On*star (BMW's brand, BTW On*star which I have on MY 2003 Audi has been discontinued -- what were they thinking????), sat nav, bluetooth, servotronic, parktronic front and rear, tire pressure monitoring, power everything, automatic lights and rain sensing windshield wipers and sat radio even (18" wheels and tires, also not available at this time on the A4!!! -- but they come standard with the BMW with the sport package).

Oh the humanity.

This sale, if it goes to BMW as I suspect it will, represents an effort equivalent to the sales effort required to sell 5 new Audis -- for it is a "marketing statistic" that it takes 5 times as much "effort" to get a new customer as it does to keep a current (and otherwise very happy) customer.

This is not about MSRP, clearly; this is NOT about All Wheel Drive -- this is about Marketing as a "weapon" or tool in a car companies arsenal of weapons. Letting my wife (who knows everybody and also teaches at the local college of law, as if she isn't out there enough) buy a BMW is damn near a crime, it is certainly a shame, and it is, to be blunt, incomprehensible.

Try this one on for size, I am about 65% certain I will just go ahead and get the new Infinity M35x -- and that is even a bigger leap -- I have never even thought of owning a Japanese car, let alone got this close to leasing one. The A6 is underpowered, lower in content, shorter in warranty, lower in residual, higher in money factor and pretty much similar in feel to the Infiniti M35x and the BMW 5 series -- I know I have extensively driven all three. And, for pity's sake, I have owned (between my wife and me, that is) 27 Audis since 1977.

Dr. Piech warned and/or boasted that all premium cars would HAVE to eventually offer AWD to meet the market's demands. So Audi sits here with its eyes and ears covered while all the other premium and premium wannabees, fulfill Piech's prophecy. What, pray tell, will separate Audi from the rest of the pack when the transformation is fully realized by "the other guys"? -- it used to be Audi = high value, high performance, decent and ever expanding luxury and amenities, a great warranty and service program AND -- the secret weapon: QUATTRO.

Same as the other guy, same as the other guy, same as the other guy, nowadays. The products were able to be differentiated quite nicely thank you when Audi was THE leader (in one respect) due in large measure to QUATTRO. NOT any more. . .they all have it, and in May 2005, BMW will have a 5 series with AWD and all the hoopla that'll surely go with it. And Audis new 3.2 A6 can have its taillights handed to it by the outgoing A6 S-Line 2.7T (which, truth be told was quicker than the A6 4.2 and handles better than even the new incoming A6).

Hello, Audi -- is this thing on????

Call me, I'll tell you that a few simple (relatively) things can keep you from slipping further. Last year you were "The" leader of the pack, now you are "A" leader of the pack, next year, at this rate, you'll be a "Member" of the pack. My gosh who's bright idea is it to bring out that super super super sexy new VW Passat with a 3.6L V6 and 280HP, smart key, all wheel drive, 6 speed tiptronic and so on and so on for a maxed out price of $38,000? -- and it is pretty much identical in size to last year's A6 for criminy's sake!!!!!????!!! Hello, it sure is quiet in here.

First, get the leasing programs to where the current market is -- you're not alone anymore. Second, get the 0-60 acceleration of the A6 3.2 to ANY number below 7.0 seconds -- it would be simple to do this (just change the final drive ratio on the A6 to a couple percentage points lower -- even if you have to make 6th gear slightly overdriven to preserve the highway milage.) And whatever you do don't let VW come out with a 280HP Passat for $38K when your 255HP A4 is $44K and your 255HP A6 is $52K! --

markcincinnati · March 2005

(continuing) -- do you think the buying public doesn't know that Audi and VW often share engines (hmm 2.8, 1.8T, 4.2. . . .)

EEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKK! Who's in charge?

Listen, I've been on the autobahn at 240KPH, I know that when you see the car in your review mirror flick his/her turn signal and you're in the left lane that you have SECONDS to get over even though the guy looks like but a speck in your mirror -- Zooooooooooooooooooom Whoooooooooooooooosh! the Porsche whizzes by -- bye bye!

Audi has been enjoying, in my estimation, life in the left lane, life pretty much with little competition. Audi people seem almost "religious fanatic" loyal to Audi -- much moreso than Volvo, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti and the rest seem. I've been to the factory 6 times for pity's sake, it is like mecca for those of us Audi-lovers. But Audi is literally cutting us loose -- they are slipping all the while they're products actually are improving.

Perception is reality -- that is all that counts really. Is the BMW that my wife will probably lease better than the Audi? -- well, not really (the stick and bluetooth are, to her, at this moment, important but would NOT in and of themselves be justification to abandon an otherwise superior car.) The point is, Audi has never been given the respect that BMW has been given and they (Audi) actually now have cars that even those stooges (said for effect, relax) at the major car magazines find difficult to fault -- Audi and BMW are closer to parity than they have ever been and BMW, for whatever reason, has decided to market its products to make them seem (perception, remember) more attractive.

Who's in charge?

What a world, what a world -- cut of my legs and call me shorty if I actually do get a new Infiniti M35x -- which is a super fine car, BTW.

Know thine enemy as I always say.

And note well the words of Pogo.

"We have met the enemy and he is us!"

mqueen1 · March 2005

Get the M35x. The car is wonderful. If you have any specific questions ask me, I pick mine up last weekend.

docnukem · March 2005

Mark:
Stop sugar-coating it and beating around the bush. Tell us how you really feel.

I'm glad you are thinking so seriously about the M. You obviously have put tons of thought (and antacid?) into this. As I am probably picking up my M35x (for MI winters) next Tuesday, it is nice to see intelligent people reach the same decision--it cuts down on my antacid bill.

It seems like your wife must be a car fanatic also. What does she think about the M and the G35?

markcincinnati · March 2005

9:35PM dateline Cincinnati -- we have just put the requisite deposit down on the new BMW -- the order will be transmitted to Munich on Friday, and they swear the car will be here May 31 -- who cares if it is June 15 actually, the deal is set -- and they even lowered the price another $4.00 since they had not configured the Servotronic and it is residualized and some other buzz I tuned out.

And, Oh, I have given up on antacids, I have made the jump to Nexium, bypassing Prilosec and Pepcid AC altogether.

jjacura · March 2005

I sincerely hope you both enjoy the car and all goes well. I'm going to take a break from this particular forum. You have said it all my man. There is nothing left for me to say. Best of luck! and Happy St. Patricks day. :-)

lexusguy · March 2005

Oh, the best laid plans. Interesting story. I would be interested to know how your wife likes her 5. If it were me, I'd go for the M35x in a second though. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.

rayainsw · March 2005

"I have given up on antacids, I have made the jump to Nexium, bypassing Prilosec and Pepcid AC altogether. "

On to Prozac - and Valium?

BTW: of all the Boards and all the Forums I follow (and several I have followed for years), I do not believe I have ever seen one (loooong) thread by one person quite like Mark's.

Perhaps there is an appropriate award?

Best of luck on the BMW - did you look at ED for your 5?
- Ray
Occasionally verbose, but . . .

jrock65 · March 2005

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2005-03-17-m-series_x.htm

richcream · March 2005

I think he likes it.

mqueen1 · March 2005

He loves it. That was one of the most positive reviews of his I have read. Also see this thread of his online chat this afternoon. http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20050318001/tscript.htm
Wait until next week and I bet he will not like (as well) the new GS300. He will say that it is a competent car but with no sparkle.

jrock65 · March 2005

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20050318

I'd say that the GS450h will start at $55,000. The only options will be the Nav/Levinson combo, at $4000, and PCS, at $2800.

I think the engine itself will be a detuned version (to improve mileage) of the 3.5 GR, meaning that it, by ITSELF, will make less than the 280hp in the Avalon. This is similar to the idea that the 3.3 in the RX400h makes 208hp, while the 3.3 in the RX330 makes 230hp.

I'd make a wild guess that the engine will make 260hp and the electric motor will make about 80hp, for a total of 340hp.

lexusguy · March 2005

Supposedly its going to be a lot more than that. At least the original plan for the "GT" car was that it was going to be based on the hybrid car, not the upcoming 4.6 V8, and have 400+hp.

For Lexus' new V8 to be even remotely competitive with the rest of the world, it needs to have at least 330hp, and I dont think they would release a hybrid with the same power. Also, all previous Toyota (and Honda) hybrid models have been the absolute top of the line, so it wouldnt make sense for it to have less power than the regular V8, if Lexus plans to charge the most for it.

mariner7 · March 2005

There are many hybrids right now: Accord, Civic, Escape. There must be more that I don't know about, because there's no buzz at all. The only buzz, and it's fading, is about Prius. And maybe because it's a dedicated hybrid, and for that reason became a fad.

Carlos Ghosn, as sharp an auto as there is, has always been lukewarm about hybrids, never appears concerned that Nissan won't put out many hybrids as others. Maybe he's right after all, won't be the first time.

kdshapiro · March 2005

"Maybe he's right after all, won't be the first time."

The hybrid market won't take off until there is actually rationing of gas without any other alternative fuel supply.

If one can't get fuel it doesn't matter how big of a premium these cars command, people will buy them for the gas mileage. However as long as fuel is plentiful it still comes out cheaper not to buy the hybrid.

Now if the price of a hybrid is the same price as a gas model and the warranty was sufficient (5 years), people would buy them in droves.

merc1 · March 2005

Something tells me that everything Toyota does in hybrids will be a hit because they were the first to make such a big deal out of it, imo.

I saw something a few months ago on the Honda Insight and Civic hybrids that said their sales had basically dried up - no interest. While the Prius can't be built fast enough. Look at the supposed to be orders build up for the RX400h. This new GS450h will probably have a similar order bank once the details are made public. The Honda Accord Hybrid on the other hand already has incentives on it - a rare move by Honda on such a new model, especially a hybrid.

M

kdshapiro · March 2005

A hit is where 50% or more of sales is from hybrids, until then it is a niche market. Due to the demographic people who buy Lexus won't mind forking over the extra couple of thousand dollars. However, there are some people who just cannot afford that type of an increase to save some money on gas.

jrock65 · March 2005

"Now if the price of a hybrid is the same price as a gas model and the warranty was sufficient (5 years), people would buy them in droves."

Or the price of gas goes up sufficiently and/or the price premium narrows sufficiently, so that the price premium can be recuperated within 3 years from gas savings.

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