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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "I think what merc was getting at is that the RX's handling isnt good enough for the 400's additional muscle, which I dont think its true."

    Thats exactly what I was trying to say, and that it isn't a performance vehicle to begin with. This was in response to what Mariner said about Lexus selling the RX400h as a "performance" upgrade. To me, imo it a joke for most SUVs to be considered as "performance" vehicles anyway, especially one the handles/steers like a RX330. The analogy about an E500 compared to a E320 or a 545i compared to a 530i doesn't apply because those vehicles are much, much more roadworthy to begin with. Pointless comparison about how they drive, and I didn't knock the benefits of getting better gas mileage.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The RX400h is Lexus' response to the SRX V8, the ML500, the Toureg V8, etc. Just about everyone but Acura (shocker) offers a V8 in the class. They could've just stuffed in the 4.3L V8 and made an RX430, but that WOULD have made it a bit too fast for comfort. The 400h has anywhere between 208-268hp, depending on how much battery power their is. Compared to a 230hp RX330 that does 0-60 in maybe 7.8, they claim low 7 seconds. The RX400 isnt a rocket, and I think it will do fine.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "This was in response to what Mariner said about Lexus selling the RX400h as a "performance" upgrade. To me, imo it a joke for most SUVs to be considered as "performance" vehicles anyway, especially one the handles/steers like a RX330. "

    Huh. Lexus says it's a *performance upgrade*. Where are they saying it's a *performance vehicle*?

    "The analogy about an E500 compared to a E320 or a 545i compared to a 530i doesn't apply because those vehicles are much, much more roadworthy to begin with. Pointless comparison about how they drive, and I didn't knock the benefits of getting better gas mileage."

    Actually, no it's not worthless analogy. Why...because whether or not it's a sloppy handler are your opinions..and as I've said before your grossly over exagerated opinions(as usual). Someone could think a E320 is a sloppy handler compared to 530i or a M35. Then doesn't the E500 merely represent just additional horsepower added onto a sloppy handling sedan?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You missed the entire point the E or 5-Series are not challenged when it comes to basic roadholding like the RX is and unless they're doing something with the suspension it is pointless, imo. As usual you're comparing apples to oranges. The E-Class doesn't handle was well as the 5-Series and everyone knows this, but I haven't yet seen a review or experienced anything close to what I have or the press has in the RX concerning its poor handling. Point being SUVs don't handle good anyway and the RX is worse than an already poor average. "Performance" and SUV usually don't go together, and they especially don't in a vehicle with challenged dynamics like the RX.

    "Then doesn't the E500 merely represent just additional horsepower added onto a sloppy handling sedan?
    "


    Of course not because the upgrade from a E320 to a E500 consists of getting an adjustable air suspension and bigger wheels/tires and a 5-Series has a sport package for either engine. Does the RX400h include any suspension or wheel/tire upgrades?

    M
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    "You missed the entire point the E or 5-Series are not challenged when it comes to basic roadholding like the RX is and unless they're doing something with the suspension it is pointless, imo. "

    Actually you miss the point(s) consistently.
    The point of the E or 5-series is simple. Sloppy handling is all relative. I have read articles in C&D, Road & Track, Motor Trend, & Automobile. None say the RX330 is *dynamically challenged* or a *sloppy handler* compared to most or all other SUVs in it's class. I have driven it and X5s, and surely the X5 is a better handler, but the RX330 is nowhere near to being a sloppy handler for a SUV. The E-class and the 5-series were used because quite simply there probably are buyers who have thought the E-class is not the best handler out there. And go over to the RX board and see how many owners find their vehicle to be a *sloppy handler* or *dynamically challenged*. Phlease.

    "...but I haven't yet seen a review or experienced anything close to what I have or the press has in the RX concerning its poor handling."

    Oh please. as I said before, stop with the over-exagerations. I have read alot of RX reviews and none have said it is a *sloppy* handler relative to it's competition. To single out the RX330 for it's inherent SUV handling traits is ridiculous. There are a ton more SUVs that have more power and handle about the same as the RX400h, such as the ML500, Jeep Cherokee, Ford Explorer V8. The list goes on.

    A sport suspension is optional on the bigger engined versions of the E-class and 5-series, correct? Do the basic E500 and 545i for example come with basically the same suspension setup as the lower models? Yes they do. How many sport package equipped cars do they sell? not many.

    "Performance" and SUV usually don't go together, and they especially don't in a vehicle with the challenged dynamics like the RX."

    Please. show me the articles that say it is more dynamically challenged than all other SUVs or even most other SUVs on the market! Yeah, I don't think so.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Both of you guys are missing the point. The RX400h is NOT THAT FAST. Its for people who want a little more passing power than the RX330 can provide, and A LOT more fuel economy than any V8, period. Nobody is going to put on wings, or body kits, or chip it to make it go faster.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    I'm not missing the point at all. I specifically said before there are more powerful SUVs on the market, the ML500 for example as well as the new Jeep Grand Cherokee Hemi. Neither handle much better than a RX330 yet are more powerful. You want to see someone trying to sell a SUV as a performance machine, check out Jeep Cherokee ads which showing it blowing about BMW 3-series and other sports sedan's in a straight line.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "Hey folks, SUVs are definitely not the topic here. Let's focus on sedans, please - I'm sure you can find - or create - appropriate discussions on the SUVs board if it is really necessary to continue that part of this debate. Thanks"

    I believe the new RL, being the clear winner that it is, in this group of "luxury performance sedan" discussions, has finally left the folks with nothing else to talk about. So enter the SUV'S? Go figure! :-)
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Member Posts: 1,289
    True True...how did the RX330/400h become a *Luxury Performance Sedan*?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    yeah I've seen those ads. The most interesting one was the 70-0 braking test where it flat out waxed an Acura RSX. Shows you how bad Honda brakes really are. That '05 stopped in 187ft. The old one took 195!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Car and Driver $55K sedan comparo:

    1. M45 (219 points)
    2. RL (215 points)
    3. GS430 (208 points)
    4. E350 (202 points)
    5. A6 (199 points)
    6. 530i (198 points
    7. STS (191 points)
    8. S-type (181 points)

    "The M45 rocks. Game over."

    http://secure.grubbs.com/cardriver.pdf
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Sure.. with a V-8..

    What engines on the STS, S-type, and A6?

    The RL, Mercedes and BMW all are six-cylinders...

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  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Did this just come out? I haven't seen my issue yet. I can't believe C&D would put the V8 versions of the M and GS against 6's (although some of the others might be 8's). Why can't they compare apples to apples?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I think a lot of C&D stuff is just luck of the draw... They get what cars are sent to them... and, they have to make up some criteria to make them competitive with each other..

    In this case, they came up with $55K as a common denominator...

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  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    STS = V8
    S-Type = V8
    A6 = V8

    Yes the RL, Mercedes, and Bimmer are all 6's, but that is because:

    Acura has no 8...not C&D's fault.
    Benz and BMW's 6's are priced comparably to the others' 8's.

    It is a COMPARISON test, you should be able to COMPARE the vehicles within $10,000 of each other.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Yeah... but, every one of those cars is available with a six-cylinder...

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  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I agree with kyfdx, that the V8 versions of the E and the 5 should have been tested.

    But I also see the logic behind pitting similarly priced vehicles against each other.
  • virtualbmwvirtualbmw Member Posts: 86
    Almost every 545 that is sold has a sport package. We are the #1 selling BMW Center in the nation and have 58 545's in our inventory. One of them doesn't have a sport package.

    Who would want to spend all the money to get the V8 and then not get a sport package? Just about nobody.

    Consider yourself corrected.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    Yeah... but, every one of those cars is available with a six-cylinder...

    Yes, but the bar, as set by C&D, and the market, to some extent, was $55,000.

    The Bimmer and Benz 8 cylinders are not attainable at that number.

    If performance were the determining factor, then yeah I would say they should have compared all the 6 cylinder versions.

    Of course, this would totally ignore the sales prices of the vehicles, which I'm sure is one of the main reasons (if not the main reason) to conduct a comparison test (to let consumers know which vehicle will give them more bang for their buck.)

    Maybe they could have factored pricing into the "points" rating system, but that would have greatly diminished the scoring of the Mercedes and the BMW anyway, which I'm sure would be as decried, if not moreso, than the "why were 6's pitted against 8's?" issue.

    Basically, they are comparing (for the sake of the dollar-conscience consumer) based on price, and not for the sake of the performance enthusiast for whom price is not an issue.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I agree. I rarely ever see a BMW with a Sport Package. And it's probably because the Sport Package costs too much. I don't know about now, but a previous generation 540i Sport that I test drove was within just a few thousand of a base M5!
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Are you sure you're a BMW salesman? If so, are you an actual car enthusiast? You definitely can tell the difference between a Sport and non-Sport BMW. There are visual differences that are easily spotted, the least of which being the ground effects.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    In March Motor Trend had a story "Six Degrees Of Separation" comparing the Acura RL, Audi A6 3.2 quattro, BMW 530i, STS V6, M35, Jaguar S-Type.

    Anyone have a link to this report - I couldn't find it on their web site.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    I can't find Motor Trend comparison anywhere either.
    I do believe the M35 won that comparo as well, right?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    They see what cars show up..... then set their criteria according to what is available...

    I couldn't care less who wins these comparos... But, it is interesting to see what they say about each individual car, and what they consider its good and bad points compared to the competition..

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  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yep, the M35 won that comparison. If I were a German auto exec, I'd be a bit nervous by this article. I found it rather amusing that C&D actually thought about throwing an S80 T6 into this. Why not bring an Avalon along as well? Since when is the S80 even a sports sedan at all? I'm not surprised Volvo turned them down either. After all, the S80 is ANCIENT compared to this class, and it would've been like sending a Sopwith Camel into a dogfight with a bunch of Raptors and Super Hornets.
  • cohenfivecohenfive Member Posts: 85
    hmmm...i don't think that's quite right. i've owned both 540 sports and an m5 and they stickered about $15k apart from each other as i recall. the e39 540 sport was hard pressed to get to $60k loaded up while an m5 loaded was about $74k...
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    Is "lexusguy" also an "airforceguy"?
  • virtualbmwvirtualbmw Member Posts: 86
    There is no body panel difference, ground effects or aero kit as part of the 545 sport package. The bodies are the same. The visual difference, other than the wheels, is the shadowline trim (black) around the windows as opposed to the chrome.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    That's what the sticker read. It was a 2003 540i Sport and listed for a bit over $62K. Back then, I believe a base M5 was going for $70K. At that price point, I think I'd ante up the extra $8K and get the M5.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Except that there were big incentives on the '03 5-series sedans, and the M5 was likely bringing MSRP or more...

    I'd bet the real world price was at least $15K apart....

    But, sure... from $62K to $70K, I'd take an M5 every time.. I'd have to live in it, though, at that price...

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  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Heh. It was the best analogy I could think of. For the record, the F\A-18 Super Hornet is a Navy aircraft :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The point was lost long ago it seems. Now we're into how many sport packages BMW sells or how many E500s are sold. Even further from what was stated origianlly. I agree that the RX getting more power is a good thing for passing. My point about its handling was from what I experienced and also from what I'd seen in the press, but mainly from drivng the RX a few times with someone looking at one. The first test C&D every did talked about this concerning the RX. I've seen nothing of the sort about the ML, X5, or any other European luxury SUV. The analogy about the 5-Series and E-Class doesn't apply because with those upgraded cars you get more than just more power on the same suspension tunning. They're upgraded.

    M
  • mikey38mikey38 Member Posts: 141
    The Sopwith Camel would no doubt be able to turn inside modern jet aircraft ;) Advantage in handling? The cloth and wood would make it difficult to see on radar. Advantage for stealth technology perhaps? ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Perhaps, but theres no way in hell the Sopwith could possibly WIN the fight, that was my point. Also, an IR missile shouldnt have any trouble finding all the heat spilling off of that engine.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    NO SUVs, NO sopwith camels, NO IR missles.

    Are we clear now?

    :)
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Just one more comment....If Lexasguy wasn't airforceguy, then maybe he tipped his hand and really was NavyPilotGuy.. ;-) ..and to keep this forum on track....I really liked the results of those C&D totals published earlier. The RL faired extremely well. Hip Hip Hooray for Acura and C & D magazine!
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Very interesting comparo. What else of interest is in the newest issue? I'm surprised the E-Class beat out all of its newer European rivals. The 5-Series definitely doesn't have a cheering stand at Car and Driver anymore. Though of course I think all V8s should have been tested. Who really shops V6s against V8s in this class? Not many I'd imagine. Poor Jaguar, always in the rear. Looks like the STS isn't living up to the Lutz hype either. Lexus' dreams of building a true 5-Series competitor might have been realized if it weren't for that pesky Infiniti.

    As usual my copy won't arrive until this time next week!

    M
  • rboyd4rboyd4 Member Posts: 23
    I think at this point enough comparisons are filtering in to say that the Infiniti is very strong competition. Particularly once price and reliability are factored in. In one test the M35 came in first and now the M45 comes in first in another test. I think the M45 came in second on the Edmunds test.

    I will make one 100% prediction however. If Consumer Reports does a similar test the Infiniti will come in at or near the very bottom and Lexus will come in at or near the very top.

    We can all belabor the nuances of exactly which cars are better forever. Suffice to say the competition is extremely keen nowadays.

    What I garner from all of these tests is that the lead BMW always held is definitely fading. Maybe the 5 series 8 cyl. would have won the C&D comparo but by how much? Then what about the price difference (20%)?

    Somewhat surprised the Acura came in second because on this and other forums it has been pretty well hammered relative the cited competition.

    Maybe I should reconsider and add the RL to my list along with the M and the A6. The E could be my back up if I could find a good deal on the secondary market but I would be concerned with maintenance issues.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    If a V6 or straight 6 could replicate what an 8 does there wouldn't be 8's selling for 10 grand more than what a 6 does, right?

    This statement is a little misleading. A 6 cylinder engine and 8 cylinder engine with equal technology and the same displacement will produce equal power.

    The advantage of having more cylinders is that the power output should "theoretically" be smoother because there is a shorter time gap between cylinders firing the more cylinders there are. I say theoretically because there are a host of other factors.

    For example, let's take a 3.5L V6 and a 3.5L V8 with the exact same technology. Let's assume each will produce max 280 HP and 235 ft/lb at 5k rpm.

    Assuming that each engine has the same stroke to simplify this example, this means that the v6 will have a bigger bore than the v8.

    In real world terms, the v6 will fire 6 times per second (it can be any time interval but I'm using 1 second here to make the point) and the v8 will fire 8 times per second. They produce the exact same power, but the v6 produces more power each time it fires and the v8 produces less power each time it fires but fires more often.

    This is why the v8 should be smoother.

    However, it's not that simple. A straight 6, for example, is perfectly balanced and has no need for a balancing shaft, which in turn robs power and causes variations in the torque curve depending upon the rpm. That's why BMW's straight 6 is legendary for its smoothness and smooth power acceleration -- no balancing shaft as found in equivalent v6's.

    That's also the reason why everyone says BMW underrates its HP. I think the torque and HP ratings on BMW's straight 6s are on target. BMW just does a better job of getting the HP to the wheels and the ready acceleration at any point of the torque curve makes the straight 6 feel more powerful.

    In contrast, the v8 is basically 2 I4s joined at the V. An I4 is an inherently unbalanced engine with primary and secondary vibrations and requires 2 balancer shafts. A v8 consisting solely of 2 I4s is called a "flat-planed" v8 and is one hell of a rough engine. To my knowledge, only Ferrari makes flat planed v8s.

    All of the luxury cars we're discussing are "cross-planed" v8s, that is the 2 cylinder banks are offset at 90 degree angles to kill some of the inherent primary and secondary vibrations of 2 I4s. However, this has the side effect of robbing some power, which is why Ferrari goes with flat planed v8s, and which is also why Ferrari sounds like a jet taking off, too much NVH for the luxury car market.

    Even though cross-planed v8s are quieter than flat-planed v8s, cross-planed v8s generate a certaing whirring growl when accelerating. Most people actually like that sound and associate it with a luxury car.

    GM makes a 4.2 L straight 6 that is as powerful and as smooth as a v8, but of course a straight 6 is a long engine and would not fit under the hood of normal sized cars.

    I think it would be possible to make a 4.2L or 4.3L v6 that is just as smooth and as powerful as the equivalent sized cross-planed v8. Although the cross-planed v8 should be smoother, a 60 degree v6 is an inherently smoother design with less secondary vibration. So both the v8 and v6 have their NVH advantages, the v8 smoother power delivery, the v6 less vibrations.

    Engine design requires compromises of power, smoothness, efficiency, packaging and marketing. Both 6 and 8 cylinders can be designed to do the task required.

    IMO, it's marketing that requires 8 cylinders for the lux market, because a smooth v6 with enough power should be as good as a v8.
  • saugataksaugatak Member Posts: 488
    Where's the stick?

    On this basis alone, I'd give the nod to BMW.

    I'll hold off my judgment until I try BMW's new engines. I haven't driven the e60 530 or the M, but I've driven the 645 a lot, and I have to believe that the 645 drives just about the same as the e60 5 series.

    There are a lot of things I don't like about the e60 5 (it's ugly, the interior is cheap, the price increase was ridiculous), but as far as driveability goes, it is awesome. The 645, despite being bigger and heavier than my e36 3 series, is a far better road handler. And of course, I do love inline 6's.

    I'm just glad that Infiniti is taking it to BMW. If the M steals enough sales from the 5 series, BMW will finally listen to its customers for a change and give us what we want instead of having overpaid suits make all their bonehead blunders.

    i-drive?
    raising prices and cheapening the interior?
    forcing active steering on the sports package? (I actually like active steering but requiring it in the sports package?)

    Who makes these idiotic decisions anyway?
  • lexusrockslexusrocks Member Posts: 56
    Thanks for posting that link. I was waiting for edmunds to do a midsize luxury performance sedan comparision test, but apparently Car and Driver beat them to it.

    I can't believe C&D asked for a Volvo S80 T6 to test. Since when did Volvo begin building performance sedans? True, the S80 is luxurious and certainly looks good, but it wouldn't stand a chance with the rest of this bunch. Volvo has a solid reputation for building safe, quiet solid cars. They have never had vehicles known for outstanding driving dynamics.

    Moving on, anyway, I was wondering about the Chrysler 300 and the Lincoln LS. Neither were included in the comparison test. Both are luxury performance sedans, yet they are several thousand less than the competiton. The Lincoln LS is built on the same platform as the Jaguar S type, yet the LS is more of a performance sedan. Either it should have been included and the S type dropped, or both included.

    Which brings me to the Chrysler 300. The 300C packs 340 horsepower, five more than the M45, and the 300C SRT-8 packs 425 horsepower, enough to blow the M45 by 90 horsepower. Either version should have been included in the test. It has the style and performance of the competition, without an astronomical price tag to boot.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    As i'd speculated before in the RL forum, prior to it's launch... a hybrid hits this segment...
    comments?

    ksso
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    None of the cars you mention, the LS, Volvo, 300C, or Jaguar S-type, really play in this class. For some reason C&D keeps inviting one back to take a beating. If I were them, after.. how many last place finishes has the S-type gotten from them now? 3 at the very least. Whats the point? I dont understand the thought process that even suggested the S80 T6. Its not particularly luxurious compared to this class, and has all the sport of a Toyota Camry. The 300C might have the power, but its not a luxury car. This was luxury-sport sedan comparison test, which means: the 3 germans, the 3 japanese, and Cadillac. The S-type really doesnt even count.
  • lexusrockslexusrocks Member Posts: 56
    While were on the subject of luxury performance sedans, why don't we move on to other luxury cars and wagons?

    Here are some comparison test ideas, that hopefully edmunds.com will do in the future

    Wagon Comparison Test

    Ford Freestyle/Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable
    Volkswagen Passat
    Subaru Legacy/Outback
    Dodge Magnum
    Mazda 6
    Chevrolet Malibu Maxx

    Luxury Wagon Comparison Test

    Jaguar X-Type
    Audi A4 Avant
    Mercedes C Class
    BMW 3 Series (Is that still in production)
    Lexus IS 300 Sportcross

    Large Sedan Comparison Test

    Kia Amanti
    Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego
    Chrysler 300
    Buick LeSabre/Park Avenue
    Toyota Avalon
    Hyundai XG350?
    Cadillac Deville?
    Lincoln Town Car?
    Ford Crown Victoria/Mercury Grand Marquis

    Sport Sedan Test

    Chrysler 300C
    Nissan Maxima
    Buick Lacrosse
    Pontiac Grand Prix
    Acura TL?
    Lexus IS300?

    tell me what you think
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The Freestyle isnt.. really.. a wagon. The Taurus and Sable are dead cars, no interest. Luxury wagons just arent big sellers in the US, so I dont think that one will happen. Also, the SportCross is a dead car.

    Large sedans just dont make for interesting reading. They just arent for enthusiasts. Who wants to read about attack of the cop car vs. the blue-haired special?

    Your sport sedans players just come from way to many segments to get thrown in together. No doubt the IS350, TL, G35, and possibly the CTS will square against the new 3, the C350, and the A4 3.2 at some point in the future.

    The Lacrosse isnt a sports sedan, and neither is the GP. They fall into the "family sedan" catergory, and would be compared against players like the Camry and Accord.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    They asked... because, Volvo buys advertising in their magazine.....

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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I took one of these caffinated cars for a test drvie about a year ago (with the stick shift).

    The 300HP 5cylinder engine and the upgraded interior etc etc -- "might" have made it eligible in this crowd -- at least moreso than the S80 T6, IMHO.

    Of course the S60 Type R that I test drove did demonstrate that trait that is just not acceptable in this segment -- "it BACKFIRED!"

    I could hardly believe it.

    I read up on the car here on edmunds and sure enough this "feature" has been noted here by others.

    Comparing the S60 Type R to some of these cars doesn't seem that far fetched (or wouldn't have at that time). But the cars like the Infiniti M and the new A6 and the Acura RL have raised the lux bar with their new cars -- poor Volvo just couldn't keep up in that department.

    When I got behind the wheel of the Volvo, however, I had not yet seen the 2005's from these other Premium guys -- so the Volvo could've possibly played around the fringes of the 2004's (of course some of these cars didn't even exist at that time).

    Volvo needs a major upgrade to even run around the fringes of this pack as things currently stand.\

    If, however, you ever have the chance to drive one of these high strung Volvos, do yourself a favor and take it out. The thing reminded me of what it might be like to stick a finger in a light socket.

    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT!
  • lexusrockslexusrocks Member Posts: 56
    "Large sedans just dont make for interesting reading. They just arent for enthusiasts."

    Does everything have to cater to the whims and fancies of car enthusiats? There's more average Joes out there who want safe, comfortable and affordable vehicles. Large sedans are comfortable, safe, and are as a whole affordable. Not everyone needs a gas guzzling SUV. There are quite a few people out there who appreciate cars. Family Sedans aren't for enthusiasts, yet Edmunds did a great test on them last year, and many people are still interested in sedans.

    With regards to sport sedans, maybe the Lacrosse isn't. But the Grand Prix is. It's purpose is more biased towards sport than comfort.

    And with wagons, the Freestyle is more wagon than SUV or minivan. It lacks the ground clearance of an SUV, and the height and sliding doors of a van. The Freestyle is undeniably a wagon, above everything else.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    But, but, but ...

    This is the Luxury Performance SEDANS discussion on the SEDANS comparisons board. :)

    And I do think wagons interest a different segment than the cars we're discussing here.
  • cruller001cruller001 Member Posts: 12
    Edmunds.com has a comparo of Luxury Sports Sedans from Japan, in which the Infiniti M45 sport, the Acura RL and the new Lexus GS430 were compared. The results were
    1st Lexus GS430,
    2nd Acura RL,
    3rd Infiniti M45 Sport.
    The one thing that all the reviewers readily agreed on was the overly intrusiveness of the electronic nanny for the GS. Infact they claimed it was so intrusive that in a couple bends during spirited driving the vehicle almost came to a stop. This is a system that also cannot be shut-off completely.

    The reason why the bit caught my eye is becos I have a 2001 Millenia S and I never ever floor the pedal when trying to merge with traffic, the vehicle will stop!! This negates any thoughts on my part of spirited driving.(fortunately my mildly modified 1990 Toyota Celica GT-S satisfies those urges.) It appears the GS has picked up this nasty trait. Why would Lexus set out to build a luxury Sports Sedan and then while at it, neuter the very essence of what makes the vehicle a Sports Sedan?
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