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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I think they thud just fine, thank you. However, you should do yourself a favor and go check one of them out -- I am probably nuts, but, if I were you, I would take my current car (that I am familiar with, that is) out for a test drive over the "XYZ" circuit. Do it a couple of times so you are familiar with how your car feels on the XYZ route. Then go test drive the M the RL, the A6, whatever on that exact same route (and what the heck, do it twice -- if you feel bad, buy a couple bucks worth of gas for the demo).

    Try the demo with the radio / stereo off and once with it on. Try pushing the car to see how well it retains its composure over these roads (assuming you did this with your own car first).

    We have found that a test drive of multiple cars over the exact same route is very telling -- more telling than a completely different test drive circuit for each brand and model.

    Of course, slam the doors, close the doors, push the doors (and do the same with the hood and trunk lid, too). See what you think.

    We ALWAYS open the hood and check the oil of the demo units -- just to "see and feel" what it is like.

    We found, and this was a minor negative, that the Infiniti G35x (otherwise a pretty sweet car) uses a prop stick for the hood -- it just seemed out of place in a car that was attempting to be a Premium or near Premium auto. We would have never known that had we not opened the hood and checked the oil. We check the oil to see if we get burned and/or dirty doing so and to see if only someone with super strength can accomplish this routine task.

    We often take the same model, but different car, of a brand out for a second test just to see if the dealer is not just having us test "the perfect XYZ car" -- indeed, although most people don't actually test the car they end up buying, I certainly would want to drive the car I am buying before I sign on the dotted line. We even test drive the cars we order. Now we have never NOT bought the car we ordered, but we always feel that by testing the car prior to buying it, we will have at least a chance of saying "this is not what I had expected."

    Of course this will only work with cars that you order that are NOT "Purple Squirrels" -- the dealer may not be inclined to let you out of a pre ordered car if you selected Screaming Chicken Fat Yellow for the paint and Purple Pleather interior without A/C and without a radio.

    Anyway -- check the doors for yourself. I'd say they are very Audi-like, if that helps.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "Of course this will only work with cars that you order that are NOT "Purple Squirrels" -- the dealer may not be inclined to let you out of a pre ordered car if you selected Screaming Chicken Fat Yellow for the paint and Purple Pleather interior without A/C and without a radio."

    I have never laughed as much at any previous post in these forums. Thanks for lightening things up! This also qualifies IMO as a luxury performance sedan post in terms of required test drive information.
    ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The text formating is certainly helpful, but I could probably do without cutesy car smiles.

    As for the door closing, even German cars cant measure up to German cars any more. Thats true with Mercedes anyway. Slam the door of a current S class vs. one from the early 90s. You'll definitely notice a difference, and not a good one in terms of the new car.
  • rotoryfanrotoryfan Member Posts: 111
    Mark, are you familiar with/formed an initial opinion about the Lexus IS250/350 that was introduced at the NY auto show (23 Mar) - in terms of the total (interior and exterior) redesign?

    Thoughts/comments on Lexus (new) push to make their cars more attractive (in comparision to the German brands)?

    Cheers,
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yeah! What's up with the dumb car faces? What are we back in third grade?
    One of the most refreshing things about the Edmunds threads in addition to the unusually high caliber of many posters has been the total absence of these distracting and admitedly cute visual cues.
    :confuse: :mad: :(
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The "next IS" thread is quite hot one, there's a raging debate mostly about wether the 2.5L engine is a good or bad idea, and more than that, wether the decision to not offer than manual transmition with the 3.5L engine (or AWD) will seriously hurt Toyota.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    http://www.ideashift.com/transfer/M/RULES/GS/SUCKS/AGAIN/proof.pdf

    The scan is a bit fuzzy. You would probably need to zoom in.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    C'mon Lexusguy .....it's OK for an occassional car smilinatcha. You are the King in here...no threat!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Sorry for the rather inflammatory web address. I didn't post it there.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "As for the door closing, even German cars cant measure up to German cars any more. Thats true with Mercedes anyway. Slam the door of a current S class vs. one from the early 90s. You'll definitely notice a difference, and not a good one in terms of the new car."

    Yes this is most true for the S-Class, the last two models set the standard for the old door close thing. However, the CLK, SLK and CLS all have the Mercedes thunk, as does the E-Class to a degree, but none of them are quite like the older Mercedes. I haven't been in any car in which its doors "thunk" like those old Mercedes. Audis are pretty good in this regard, especially the A8. Certain Lexus and BMW models are too, but Jaguars and Infiniti sound tinny to me, especially the M35/45. Someone on the M board pointed out that the M's doors are made of magnesium so they're strong as hell I'm sure, but just not hefty feeling when closed.

    M
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Someone on the M board pointed out that the M's doors are made of magnesium so they're strong as hell I'm sure, but just not hefty feeling when closed.

    I think you're referring to me. It was the GS board because they were complaining that the M's doors felt "tinny." I had to explain to them that the doors are made of magnesium to save weight and that's why they don't feel so hefty.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I have no information and -- gulp -- no opinion PERIOD. Anything I would say about this/these would be a total made up answer. Much as I would enjoy the discussion, I have to say nothing on the subject.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .Msg #1590.
  • gandhim3gandhim3 Member Posts: 191
    I had to explain to them that the doors are made of magnesium to save weight and that's why they don't feel so hefty.

    Are you sure the doors are made of magnesium. I thought the doors, hood, and trunk were made of aluminum to reduce weight, not magnesium. Isn't magnesium more prone to corrosion - not a good idea to use this metal in an area exposed to the elements :confuse:

    Edit - just checked the M brochure, and on page in the back where they list standard features, they specifically say "Aluminum doors, hood and trunk"
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    That's weird. I have an M brochure that says they're made of magnesium. Maybe the skin is aluminum and the frame is magnesium or vice versa. :confuse:
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    March 2005 sales in the Luxury Sports Sedan class

    5 = 3,949
    E = 3,608
    GS = 3,209
    STS = 2,954
    M = 2,253
    A6 = 1,681
    RL = 1,376

    Not surprisingly, the biggest winners were the GS and the M.

    The E was the biggest loser, whose sales went down 27.4% from March 2004 (4,971 units). However, part of the reason for this may be because of cannibalization by the CLS, which sold 1759 units.

    Overall brand (March 2005 vs. March 2004):

    BMW = -11.0%
    MB = +1.9%
    Lexus = -1.9%
    Cadillac = +0.1%
    Infiniti = +5.3%
    Audi = -12.9%
    Acura = +3.6%
  • gandhim3gandhim3 Member Posts: 191
    Very doubtful that any car maker would use magnesium in the outer shell for a car. Not only does magnesium corrode easily compared to steel of aluminum, but also explosive when it comes in contact with flames. Cannot imagine a magnesium hood used when one has to worry about vehicle fires.

    May be you have a preliminary brochure, or one with a typo?
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    I took a cue from another post-er in here who was monitoring the inventories of local Infiniti dealerships via infiniti.com, and it looks like the dealerships may have just adjusted their numbers for April.

    Of the 4 dealers I've been checking, their collective inventories just dropped from 136 M's to 99 M's in stock overnight. I don't doubt that a good number of the 37 sold were signed in the last 1 or 2 days of March, but I wonder how these initial sales figures will effect the bottom lines on the M.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Considering how well the TL sold last year in March, the Acura overall 3.6% gain this year is excellent. What's going on with those Euros?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not surprised either. The RL was out of the gate first, and got some attention, but as soon as the cearly superior GS and M hit, the RL was gone from the radar screen. Its all about GS vs. M now.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Numbers games are played and framers can do whatever they want. The old trite phrase "Figures lie and Liars figure" comes to mind. But I have nary a bone to pick with an Infiniti lover. It's a nice car. Can't imagine where all that steam comes from tho....must be a longtime lurker, fuming at the ears still seething after that drag race loss to an '87 Civic.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    " Its all about GS vs. M now."

    jrock's numbers showed GS sales looking good at 3,209 for Mar. but if you look at Lexus overall brand sales being off about 2% are the GS sales going to be strong enough down the road to make a difference?
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    The other Lexus sedans, LS/ES/IS, all had double digit % decreases. Makes you think whether GS is taking sales from them.

    G sedan had the best sales month, 4 years after its introduction, pretty amazing.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, the IS is only a few months from replacement, and the LS and ES will be replaced in '07. I think Lexus will be fine.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think it may have been you, but they still don't have to sound or feel tinny when closed, was my point.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Those sales numbers are very interesting. There is a lot of talk about the CLS taking E-Class sales on the German car boards eleswhere. Between the CLS and the fact that every other car in the class is newer the E will have a long hard year. In 2004 MB moved 58K Es, I doubt they'll hit 40K this year. Ouch. That 2007 model year facelift can't come soon enough. BMW dropped eleven percent and Lexus droped almost 2 percent while Mercedes increased by the exact same amount. Creepy. Sales are all over the map, really hard to make any definite conclusions about anything. Sales are basically free for all this year with so many different cars competiting. I guess BMW is down because of the pending arrivial of a new 3-Series. Overall I except it to be Lexus, BMW and Mercedes overall at years end. I think if the M and R-Classes take off MB can get darn close to BMW. After the 3-Series BMW doesn't have nearly as much on tap as Mercedes does as the year progresses. I don't see Cadillac keeping their #3 spot this year, the STS won't make the predictions - overpriced and too much competition imo.

    M
  • untrueuntrue Member Posts: 18
    merc1, I agree, both the new M class and the R class look like winners to me. Kind of surprising that the base M class starts $3500 cheaper then the base M35x. I guess there's more competition in the SUV segment.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    In my opinion, M sales have a lot of upside. Reasons:

    1) The $65M nationwide advertising blitz starts today (04/01/05).

    2) All of the comparo wins can only help. Probably not much, but can't hurt.

    3) Quite a few people don't really know much about Infiniti. Everyone knows MB, BMW, and Lexus. As the brand's image improves with hits such as the G, FX, M, and QX, that can only improve traffic into showrooms, which will improve sales.

    4) The G35 sedan sales went from 35,765 in 2003, to 42,800 in 2004, and is on pace for 48,016 in 2005. It is possible that the M will have such an upward curve.

    Anyways, just speculation on my part.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What are your thoughts on the new G class? Do you know when its due?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    All true and very accurate if speculation can be that. You can't watch TV without seeing a "The New M" commercial.

    Another hit for Infiniti I'm sure. Infiniti is by far my favorite of the Japanese luxury brands. G35 Coupe, FX35/45 and M35/45 are all greatly admired by me. A very high honor....lol. Back in the day it was Acura, but every since the Legend went away they've fallen from view, though I do like the TL a little.

    Question: Are you familiar with the user id "sacguy"?

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Personally I don't like anything about it. The spy photos show what could be just any car company's SUV, nothing even close to deserving the "G" in the name. The current G is so legendary and most of all so different from %99 percent of the SUVs on the road today and that is the way I like it, but I'm told that I don't see the business side clearly so... I guess this new SUV that the real G will be replaced with is more mass-marketable and should sell a 1000 times better, but it won't be half the "truck" the current G is if what they're saying about it using the new ML/R-Class platform.

    It is supposed to debut at Detroit 2006 and go on sale about a year from now. It looks like a longer M-Class which it is. Not a true "G" in my opinion. Not at all.

    On some other boards they're hinting that Mercedes may keep the old G in production under its proper name G......wagen. I think they should keep the current G around and just continually refine it and call this new SUV something else. MLX was the rumor about a year ago, but we'll see.

    M
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I don't remember a sacguy. Sound very vaguely familiar tho.
  • sacguysacguy Member Posts: 27
    Hi Merc1,
    What do you want to know?

    sacguy
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh there you are. Are you the same person on GCF?

    M
  • sacguysacguy Member Posts: 27
    Hi Merc1,
    Yes, I am the same person. I actually look at GCF, Audiworld, MB forum and Edmunds - all using the same name - sacguy. I am just reading and sharing bits from all the forums and auto reviews!! I thought I was getting a new car this spring, but now I am just waiting, as my car is still a good one and under warranty for a year (2002 BMW 5 series). I was originally going to get an A6, then bounced to a MB E500 (actually put an order in , then cancelled due to all the reliability comments. Plus the car started to look a bit dated and too old for me, especially with all the new cars coming out. Now I am checking out the new Infiniti M, but my heart is still with the german cars. Will probably wait for a MB refresh on E annd other new models, before jumping in. All this reading can get you sooooo confused, but it is fun! :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Alrighty then, I figured as much. I noticed the same style of posting.

    Yes this class is red-hot right now and the E has the distinct honor of being one of the older cars in the class, even though it just came out for 2003! That said it seems to be holding its own so far. I was shocked to read where it topped the new 5-Series and A6. That is almost unheard of. It looks like the new Infiniti M is set to become the darling of the class, if not in sales at least in comparos. This is where the 5-Series used to reign supreme. The E's 2007 facelift can't come soon enough.

    M
  • patrick3patrick3 Member Posts: 31
    Anybody surprised by the latest C&R $55K Sports Luxury Comparison? German car's continue to lag Japanese cars in very comparison I've seen to date. Big drop for BMW & Audi and a big surprise/showing for Acura. No doubt Infiniti M continues to lead the pack with another first place showing.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Automobile mag has a sport sedan comparo in their May issue, and the top 3 were, in order, 1. A6 4.2, 2. GS430, 3. E500....ahead of the M45 and 545i.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Oh come off it. It's about time C&D stops the dumb price comparos and compares all V-6's or all V-8's
    I don't believe the M45 would have come out ahead of the 545 and they even hint of that in the review. Sure the M45 is a great value but to compare this car with a V-8 to a 530i with its weak 6 is rediculous. Motor Trend to its credit compared V-6 sports sedans and the M35 came in first.
  • patrick3patrick3 Member Posts: 31
    And if I remember correctly, the 530 came in 3rd or 4th place compared to the other V6's in the Motor Trend comparison with the M35 in first and the RL in second. Again, German cars are taking a backseat to the Japanese offerings.
  • sacguysacguy Member Posts: 27
    The E's 2007 facelift can't come soon enough.

    M


    You hit that one right on, I hope it is more than a "botox" face refresh, needs a real "nip and tuck" facelift!! Can't wait. BTW.... Love the CLS, sadly about $10k out of my reach!

    SacGuy
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The 545 might have done better than it did, but Im not so sure it could come out ahead of the M for a first place with just more power. Even if they decided to include a 545, the price premium is a SIGNIFICANT hurdle, even if its a supposedly "better" car.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Until money is no object, I find C&D's inclusion based on price quite valid indeed.

    My 2001 A6 4.2 sport cost within a few dollars the same as my friend's 2001 BMW 530 (they were both right at $50K MSRP). Why NOT evaluate the cars based on the cost as "A" factor.

    Why not, then, evaluate the cars based on all RWD or AWD or FWD or the color blue?

    MSRP seems to be at least a somewhat reasonable approach to evaluation.

    OK, so C&D viloates this with the comparo of the new Corvette to a Porsche -- the Porsche was $10's of thousands more -- and, um, the Corvette was chosen.

    How about this: test them price considered and price not considered. Of course then you would have people yowling when a BMW 3 or Audi A4 was tested head to head with the Pontiac G6, based on some other criteria like overall length or wheelbase.

    The $55K comparo was amazing to me in that Audi did not finish in the top three -- and was beaten by a Mercedes E class -- but my bias is showing.

    What you can bring to market for reasonably close dollars in your stated class is relevant, at least it is to me.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    OK, so C&D viloates this with the comparo of the new Corvette to a Porsche -- the Porsche was $10's of thousands more -- and, um, the Corvette was chosen

    Did you see the same comparo in the competitors magazine? Bottom line: "The Porsche got the nod."

    Until these comparos have the same value system as I do, they are useless to me in guding me regarding car purchases. The only value they have is bragging rights, using the paper to start the wood fireplace and having the readers reviewing the reviewers.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I am waiting for the day that an auto rag has a direct comparison between the M45 sport and the 545 and proclaims the M45 the winner solely on performance. Money is usually no object to them when superior performance is in play. I don't know how many times I have read comparos when BMW was the winner and the price premium was always worth it to the auto rag reviewers.
    I am not knocking the M45. I drove one already and feel it is a fantastic value but when I got back in my BMW, I could feel the difference.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    M35:530=M45:545. Yup. The M35 whupped the 530i in the MotorTrend comparo.
    So why doesn't any auto rag step up to the plate and compare the M45 sport to the 545? That's the next logical progression.
    C&D's comparo involving an M45 sport and a lame V-6 530i was, well, lame.
    Let CR deal with value. Auto rags are supposed to deal with pure performance.
    The M45 sport should have been compared to the 545.

    Come on Motortrend, Road and Track,etc; Performance test an M45 sport vs. a 545, comparably equipped. And don't get the active steering on the BMW(since the M45 doesn't have it) and then spend half the review criticizing the steering.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    Comparos are never going to "have the same value system as [you] do" except by random chance. Read the objective reporting and draw your own conclusions using your value system. Or just go drive the cars and draw your own conclusions. I know I'm not telling you anything new--you just want to bash the mags which, after all, have to draw some sort of "conclusion" to satisfy their readership, many of whom want to be told what to buy (or, more likely, what to lust after since they can't afford to buy).
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Automobile mag has a sport sedan comparo in their May issue, and the top 3 were, in order, 1. A6 4.2, 2. GS430, 3. E500....ahead of the M45 and 545i."

    What were the rankings for the rest of the cars? Any other details?

    Thanks much.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Sorry, I no longer keep hardcopy mags after going through them...maybe someone else can provide more detail, or try your library if you're not a subscriber. I do recall that the 545i they tested was without the sport package. They also said about the GS something to the effect that it was the easiest to drive fast (and I think they meant not just in a straight line) in part due to its low weight.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If the M45 won the Automobile mag. comparo, that would add to the overwhelming evidence in favor of this car's superiority. Since it came in at least fourth, it looks like one would have to drive each car and see which one you like best. That's what I'm doing anyway.
    I already drove the GS 430 and the M45 sport. I wouldn't buy either one of them for various reasons. This Friday I drive the 545. The A6 and E500 don't interest me.
    I am also very much looking forward to driving the new 330i in a few weeks.
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