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Its a great theory, but it wont happen. This is a company that plans to support its entire lineup of cars all based on Mazda and Volvo platforms. There's just no way they are going to spend the cash on an all new platform that will support at best one or two cars. Even if they DO spend the money for an all new, Jaguar designed compact RWD platform for the X-type, whats going to happen 5 years later? Are the Germans and Japanese just going to sit still and wait for poor old X-type to get its next redesign? Not a chance. The X-type was a failed experiment to turn Jaguar into a a 200K+ sales volume maker. I dont think there will be another.
Buying a compact and very powerful Yamaha V8 was a very smart move for Volvo. I wonder if it will end up in the next S80 as well. That is really the one dull spot in Volvo's line. It competes with the Toyota Avalon, and costs too much. They either need to make it into a car actually worthy of being invited to a C&D midsize sport\lux comparo, or just get rid of it. Maybe Acura should give Yamaha a call.
I guess you're right, but it was a nice dream though. I don't think Jaguar will make it without something in the entry-level segment. A nice crossover might work, but I'm not sure if it fits the Jaguar image.
I disagree about the S80 competing with the Avalon, well maybe up until this year because the Avalon really came out the bag with this redesign in features/size/power, but before that no comparison to me. I still doubt that the Avalon will match the Volvo in dynamics, but neither are terribly sporty. The S80 T6 is a nice car, but you're right "nice" doesn't cut it anyomore. I had read somewhere that the V8 will be put into the S80 when it gets redesigned.
M
What I'd like to see from Volvo with the next S80 is a real performance sedan, AWD, with either the Yamaha 8, or a T6 making a minimum of 280hp, or both. I know they can do it, their 2.5L 5 is capable of 300 horses after all. A big cushy boat thats not particularly good at anything and not particularly luxurious and comes in at $40K+ like the current car isnt going to work. The ES350 will crush it. Take it up market, or just let it die.
The ES350? The ES is getting the 280hp engine from the Avalon?
M
From what I understand, ES will become ES350 with the '07 redesign. As for the RX, not sure. Its redesign probably wont come until 2010 or so, and my guess is it will become RX350 and RX450h, or something like that.
What would save Jaguar? Include maintenance like the Audi plan and dropping $5000 of the price of the X-Type. The wagon looks really good but the $36,000 price without options is a feeble attempt at humor. What idiot would price this wagon so high above the sedan, that nobody wants, and then.............
Sorry, but I would buy the wagon but obviously it is a dead issue now that it is moronic economic choice. "Hello Hertz, Yes I would like to borrow one of those X-Type wagons, that only you own, for a trip...."
As for Volvo.....................the XC90 is nice and with the price of gas today I would consider one for my wife to haul the kids around in IF they dropped a hybrid engine in and INCREASED gas mileage. Volvo/Ford has instead decided to drop the V8 engine into it, imo 2 years too late, and it will get worse mileage. I test drove a S40 last fall and I was more impressed by the center console than the vehicle. The Mazda3, platform sister, had better performance and seats. The S80 was a brilliant vehicle in 1999 when I drove one that I rented. It hasn't progressed much since then. Still a great vehicle but the price is crazy.
Audi makes a beautiful vehicle with great interiors and exteriors. Fit and finish is great too. The A8 is one of the best full size sedans built. I would lease any one of their products but I would not want to own one for the long term. The loss is too great.
I disagree with the comment that Land Rover will be doing well soon. I'm not brilliant and I know I am treading on thin ice with this thought but the market for SUVs seems to be getting smaller and their vehicles get horrible gas mileage. The Freelander is not really competitive against the same price vehicles from Japan and the new Disco is going to cost more than the last one. Have you seen what these vehicles go for after a couple of years? Bring the Defender 110 back with the diesel that the guys over here have and price it a little over the Jeep and you will make a killing. (IMO, of course)
I got off the sport sedan topic there-apologies to the host. I'll do better next post.
SAAB- The SAAB trailblazer is NOT funny. Another idiot thought this would be a good idea.........and the GM badge? There should be a no cost GM badge delete option available. The Sabaru was not a bad idea but it won't save SAAB. The Sportcombi on their website looks good but the price will either be too high or they will do something else to reduce it's chance to help SAAB. My apologies go out to both of the very loyal SAAB buyers reading this and the other 8 buyers from the NE. :-)
Okay back to work.
Capt. Phil
The S-Type is also mostly a Ford under the skin. Lurking beneath a body and interior that is vaguely appropriate to the Jaguar brand is a Lincoln.
Asking prices may suggest otherwise, but Saabs probably don't qualify as "luxury performance cars" in the mindset of most U.S. consumers. I respect Saab for following a different arc for many decades, but a 4-cylinder turbo and front wheel drive just don't excite the typical American luxury car shopper. Look at the exceedingly repetitive posts on the Infiniti board that wax poetic about the (nice) M35/45 and its powerband. Speed and torque that come wrapped in nice leather, decent sound systems, 18/19 inch wheels, and roomy back seats are what tickles our fancy. That's just not what Saab does.
All hail the WRX, but a Saab version is an answer to a question that nobody asked.
Absolutely agree with you that SUV's in general are on their way down. At least the luxo-barges that get 10 mpg. GM is in deep crapola. Did you know that GM stock is actually selling for less than it did 40 years ago, while the S&P has risen more than 1,600%? Chew on that for a while as you watch a Suburban roll down the assembly line. Glad to see Cadillac enjoying a rebirth, but the LaCrosse, G6, and Cobalt explain why Mr. Lutz is no longer GM's car czar. The Solstice and new Saturns better do well, but I wouldn't bet against the Miata and the slew of Saturn competitors.
Ooops, I'm no longer talking about luxury performance cars.
Hope you are out of harm's way over there. My cousin is serving as a medic near Baghdad and we get periodic updates from him and pray for his imminent and safe return. Godspeed to you also.
The XC90 isnt bad, but my wife is very happy with her RX. Its a lightweight compared to the Europeans, so the V6 provides plenty of performance AND fuel economy, even without the electric motor. I have no doubt that Lexus will sell every 400h that comes off the line though. The XC90 has definitely been a big success for Volvo though, and most importantly, it is NOT a rebadged Ford Explorer, as the 9-7x is to Trailblazer. Its perfectly fine to develop a mass market product like the Freestyle from a luxury developed platform like the Volvo P2. Whats NOT fine is to make a lux-ute out of your mass market platform, GM.
To the Saab heads that say the 9-2 and 9-7x are stop gap measures, they are. To be replaced by other GM rebadges. The next vehicle in the Saab pipeline is a "9-5x" which will be a rebadged Chevy Equinox\Pontiac Torrent. Woohoo. The only way I can see Saab working is a sort of alternative to Cadillac, using the Sigma architecture for those not into the "art&science" design direction. I might be interested in at least test driving a Saab version of the CTS with RWD or AWD and the 3.6L DOHC V6. Continued rebadges of Chevy products will only lead them on a path to their ultimate demise. Good bye Sweden. Hello Saabldsmobile.
cstiles, I liked the comment that automobile made about a GM exec looking at the Ridgeline and then bashing it. Basically what they said is that GM might want to get their OWN business in line before they start ripping apart actually innovative products from a PROFITABLE automaker.
Can someone tell me the latest on the money rate for a M35 Sport?
I tried to give Lincoln a shot, but it was the wrong time.
I'm not sure there was ever a right time.
I'll be going back to Asian for my next ride, I'm fairly certain.
With Korea shoring up the inexpensive reliable everyday transportation role, it leaves little room for the rest of the world.
Good luck and welcome!
I really have enjoyed reading this discussion group and appreciate your feedback!!
I drove all of those cars, and then bought the one that I wasn't even going to test drive....a rear wheel drive 2006 530i. I flat out had a blast driving it, and cringe at the thought that I only drove it because it was down the road from the Acura dealership, and I had some free time. (Hated the RL, btw) A6 was probably my next choice, but the fact that the salesperson seemed annoyed that a guy driving a hyuandi was coming in for a test drive cemented the fact that the 530i was way more fun to drive...and that was the old smaller engine.
And yes - I will be springing for snow tires since I am in MN. However, I know several folks here in MN that do just fine without them. If you are looking at AWD because you are in MN (mnjoe??) you may want to reconsider. The rwd's are just more fun to drive (and they have traction control.)
However, you will have a hard time finding an '06 on the lot. The remaining 05's should give you a good feel though, as they are the same except '06 has a bigger engine. And if you are still hell-bent on AWD, the 530xi will be out soon. You can even order one today!
Good luck.
Martin
One reason to opt for the 5-series is if you simply MUST have a manual transmission (not available on the M).
No use. You think the X3 is a "tarted up Rav4." Hilarious.
Moreover, the lease prices on these 5 series cars were darn near $200 per month less than the Audi A6's when comparably MSRP'd. The M35x too comes in about like that when compared with the Audi.
But I have to take the automatic transmission -- a fact that my wife will not let me forget, as she equates the auto with AARP (unfortunately she has a point).
So, as has been said by many of us here on the forums and certainly by the editors of at least 3 or 4 prominent auto magazines, "with the possible exception of the Jaguar, none of these premium lux/sporty cars in the $50K class is a bad car or one that you will not be happy with." Many of the editors love the M's, some the A6 (Automobile magazine for instance) -- when the "objective points" are laid out, the differences are often quite slim between number 1 and number 5 (out of a field of 7 or 8 usually).
If there had been a 530xi at an Infiniti price (or close), and the promise to keep it available with a manual transmission was unbroken, that would probably have been my choice, too.
Of course ditto the A6 -- especially if it were 6 speed manual equipped.
So, as some have accused me, "I settled" for a M35x -- but after having driven many of the competition's offerings, I don't feel as if I settled on anything (considering I was unwilling to go 2WD even for the stick shift.)
The Infiniti does feel very Germanic -- almost but not quite. But certainly close enough to not keep me awake wondering "what have I done?"
Glad to hear you understand this. The hardcore Japanese-car crowd doesn’t get it, never will. They use to say that performance wasn’t important. Now that performance points are showing up in reviews it means something to them. If they really were bent on value as they claim, they should buy the lower priced Japanese cars that don’t perform and, as we know, there are plenty of them. I mean, why pay more money for a performance car when you don’t need that kind of vehicle?
FYI, the following comes from a someone who posts on the “BMW 5-Series Sedans” thread:
“I have a new 06 530i I am a sales manager at an Infiniti dealership ”
That should raise an eyebrow or two. If I were interested in an Infiniti M, I’d go over there and pick his brains. Would be great to know what his pitch is to customers who are cross shopping these two cars.
There is, currently, a certain feel that the Audi, BMW, Mercedes, even and some VW's too, have that the Japanese engineers, I am now convinced (because of the M) are cognizant of and want to emulate. The M has indeed "emulated" the feel of the German cars, particularly the BMW (because the M is somewhat less nose heavy than the Audis, IMHO).
The M35x with a sport suspension option and a 6speed manual -- now that would be a remarkable car. But, the Japanese in this class (and frankly Audi and Mercedes, too) are pretty conservative and pragmatic. My guess is they know their audience.
Of course the two BMW dealers here in Cincinnati, do sell manual 3's and 5's -- but if you search the inventory on a Sunday afternoon (wandering up and down the lot, peering into each and every 3 and 5) is is clear to see that a significant majority of these cars have been ordered (by the dealer, unsold) with automatics.
The customers must buy a heck of a lot more autos than sticks. And, one last observation, virtually all 3's with AWD (X-Drive) are automatics. Only one stick could be found yesterday (and yes, I know there is a new 3 coming soon, but this lack of sticks in the AWD versions is not new).
Mercedes doesn't even offer a stick with AWD -- and they make it clear "4Matic" is its name.
Finally, the sales rep who sold me the Infiniti M35x used to sell BMW's -- the sales rep who sold my wife her BMW X3 used to sell Infinitis and still thinks the G35's "aren't bad" -- for Nissan's.
We all have our biases.
Had I a magic wand, I would want an A6 Sline with a manual transmission. It will never happen, unless I somehow acquire Jay Leno money.
And, without fail, non-sport packages were automatic, sport packages were manual.. which makes sense, but it does cut down on your options..
And, interestingly enough.... about 5 330xi left... I don't want one, but with the $4K incentive, you might be able to make a good deal..
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Anyone seen the umbria grey?
On the issue of the RL, I just didn't like the exterior. The drive was fine. Just no spirit.
I believe people have a hard time overcoming prejudices. They have a lock on this V8 thing and the previous vanilla RL. Also, Acura did compromise the size and it’s an optionless take-it-or-leave-it car. And it will never gain acceptance among the RWD people. So its market is limited. I haven’t driven it yet but when I see it on the road its gait suggests a nice tight ride and they seem to be driving them hard. It also has the sportiest and cleanest appearance out of all the cars in this group IMO.
I have seen Umbria and I have seen Bourbon -- not together, however.
I was able to test an M in Platinum with a Bourbon interior -- the black dash makes the contrast work -- for me.
I don't understand why the Vanilla is not offered with the Bourbon -- that might have been my first choice.
And, why no Emerald Green Pearl offerings (a la Audi and BMW?) -- the Green A6 with the Amaretto (close to Bourbon) interior is quite attractive (IMHO).
The Japanese (perhaps exluding Lexus) seem to limit our choices far more than the Germans -- wonder why.
I saw a new Lexus GS this weekedn in a dark (ruby?) red pearl color -- beautiful. Of course both the A6 and the M have an interesting red color, but it is far from subtle.
I really liked the Acura TL, 6speed, that I drove -- one and only one drawback -- torque steer. Big time torque steer -- made the thing scream to be either RWD or AWD (my pref, of course, to the latter).
I got to sit in the front and back of the Acura RL -- never did get to drive it. The interior was "almost" Audi like (like the offspring of an Audi and a Lexus). I liked it. I saw the Accord's features in the RL, and the BMW butt. I would hardly say I didn't like it, but it certainly seemed small inside. The test reports about its "anemic" (and I am quoting) engine did confuse me -- almost as if it was the number of pistons it has rather than its performance that matters. Then the car journalists turn right around and praise the M (even with the V6!) go figure.
The interior of the M and the A6 were my faves -- although I did "appreciate" what Lexus was trying to do with the new GS. The new GS interior seemed like a very upscale "men's club" -- lots of wood and high back leather chairs, etc etc. I think you need an ascot to drive a Lexus -- sadly, I don't even own an ascot.
Anyway -- Umbria exterior looks great to me -- I think it would beg to be configured with a Bourbon interior. I personally just couldn't take an all black interior -- too confining, too closed "feeling," but that's a personal pref kind of thing -- it probably would look great with the black leather (as long as I didn't have to live with it).
I dont think the RL is a bad car. I just think the M completely outclasses it.
The new RL, yep, that lack of low end torque even with its high hp (must be for bragging rights only) was once again aimed at the Audi brand (some even wondered if the bustle butt suggested that Acura had even fancied a run at BMW -- I say "na baby na" to that), hasn't been enough to ruffle either the V6 or the V8 "M's" and I often wonder how many folks cross shop the A6 3.2 and the RL (hmm, maybe more than I would think, perhaps).
The new RL, however, seems to me to be darn close to a bargain if you attempt to content up an A6 or a BMW 5 to have the same number of gizmos.
SH-AWD -- what a great idea and apparently well executed. But I read it was really something that was needed to neutralize the RL's twin demons: too much weight on the front end and front wheel drive biased All Wheel Drive (a la Volvo). This is somewhat odd, considering that the engineers who designed this thing must've read the criticisms about Audi quattro's f/r weight distribution (too much weight on the nose and yet still decent handling despite this imbalance) and often "just passable" 50 50 torque split (passable according to those folks who write about these cars for a living, that is).
When given almost a clean sheet to birth a new flagship, one does have to wonder about some of the choices Acura (for one) made. Of course, I wonder why Audi didn't press forward a little bit faster to create a better balanced A6. I can forgive the delay in making quattro RWD biased since at least it was already 50 50.
Anyway, the Acura RL is still hardly ever seen on the highways and byways around and in Cincinnati -- but the A6 and even the Infiniti and Lexus are starting to be less and less rare. This is somewhat more telling, too, given that the Acura was pretty early coming to market, at least compared with the Infiniti and Lexus models.
With a pause to refresh, I must say, however, that the A6 3.2 on paper (I have driven both versions several times) is also somewhat of a disappointment in the "quickness" category. I often wonder how marketing can let the outgoing A6 S-Line sit on the showroom floor next to the new identically priced A6 3.2 and be over a half a second slower to freeway speeds?
Perhaps it was thought the new A6 3.2 would be compared with the outgoing A6 3.0 (at often almost $10,000 less -- I say, "no way!")
The winners (based on unit sales), apparently, are the Japanese and even BMW's "old" (hardly) 530. The Audi is doing well in comparison to itself a year ago, but is not doing as well as the usual suspects from Acura, BMW, Infiniti and Lexus. So the Acura is too small, too weak and too expensive? While I must agree with a lot of the stuff I read about these cars both here and in the magazines, one thing is certain, the Japanese Premium Lux/Performance cars appear to be "comparably priced at MSRP (or somewhat less)" and outselling the Germans, save for the BMW (which may be doing so well recently due to some incentives.)
Acura it would seem needs to work a bit more on the performance part of the equation, otherwise it seems they did a pretty good job with the RL. Of course, as someone here said (you I think, Mike) the "M" does outclass it.
The RL marches to its own drum. On one hand it is "Honda-boring" (or "Honda-sensible?"), while on the other hand it offers a unique blend of technology, driving experience, performance, and reliability. It is a FWD platform stretched to go AWD. The Infiniti is a RWD platform stretched to go AWD (in the M35X). The driving dynamics will be different. The Nissan VQ also has more low end punch, although it doesn't rev to nosebleed territory like the Honda motors can do all day long.
Honda V6 power must rev (buttery) high to find its powerband. Not what some consumers expect in their luxury boat, especially if they start with the notion that a car should at least offer a V8. That has never been Honda's philosophy. They kicked and screamed before they dropped a V6 into the Accord, since they've always believed that the VTEC 4 cylinder is the better choice in terms of efficiency and even performance. Honda engineers just plain think differently. Almost like those BMW engineers kicking and screaming before they finally put cup holders in their cars. And to date, Audi makes some of the worst cup holders on Mother Earth. I give them brownie points for that since it means they are focusing on other (more important) features.
The RL will also appeal to a more conservative customer who probably doesn't care to post comments on Edmunds and also couldn't care less that it is half a second slower to 60mph. But I'm positive that Honda would love to shake free from the stigma of the previous RL's, which appealed to the Country Club, retired set, rather than you and me. The RL driver may also be more like the A6 driver, while the M35/45 driver is probably more like a BMW driver. The Lexus driver is probably more of a blend, simply because powerful Toyota has the resources to appeal to a more diverse driver population.
Just my very unscientific opinion on this fine Monday. By the way, my wife drives an 05 RL, which puts me behind the wheel about 20% of the time. As long as she's happy, I enjoy the spoils.
They are constantly targeting a "more for your money" type of customer..
Rather than compete directly, they like to shoot for a "nearly competitive" car at a much lower price point..
Ergo... the TL vs. the 5-series/GS/E class...
RL vs. 7-series/LS/S class....
Now, cognescenti realize that the RL doesn't really have the features, V-8, etc. to compete with those cars, but the majority of buyers see three basic levels of luxury cars..
Level I --- TSX, 3-series, ES, C-class, G35
Level II --- TL, 5-series, GS, E-class, M35
Level III --- RL, 7-series, LS, S-class, Q45
So, the RL looks like a screaming buy... and for 98% of buyers, it is all the car they will ever need.. They think the rest of the people are idiots for paying over $60K for a car that is no better than their RL.
I hate the term: perception is reality, but in this case, it applies directly...
regards,
kyfdx
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Acura will have to accept that time is needed before they get any recognition for this new car and they need to accept that a V8 or their excellent V10 would be a much better choice to lead the pack. I would buy a new AWD 6 Speed RL with a V10 that could maintain better than 23 mpg in the city. There is the challenge. Acura is soft though and they will never get it done right. They will make an RL-S and think that it will persuade the Infinity/BMW performance buyer to drop their cars and run to them. They are fools to think that they can compete in the V8 category of sport sedans with a V6. There is more to an engine than pure hp and you can tell the difference in a V8 and a V6 at 90 mph or even at a legal 75 mph.
The RL can not compete against the V8 sedans and Acura does not have the performance history, in sedans, to do it either. It is not a genuine attempt to provide the performance minded buyer with a true BMW/Infinity substitute but more of a stop gap measure to give their (Honda's) old bosses something that they wanted. They can make better but they chose the conservative market every time. It's in the Honda DNA now. Think "dependable" and don't alienate anyone other than those that don't already own a Honda product.
It’s only the magazines that want to put the RL against performance sedans. It’s was never meant to compete but just to be. Think BORG!
Capt. Sandell
Last post April 12, 2005 -- 6 days ago!
Perhaps interest is waning?
As for Acura, they need to figure out a way to make their cars sell on merit, not on the fact that they are cheap. You can get cheap from Korea. The G, FX, and M don't rely NEARLY as much on a bargain price tag as the MDX, TSX, and TL do. The RL doesnt even have that, so I think its going to fail. There's only so much room in the segment. While the E and 5 will not rule forever if they dont remain competitive, they still have plenty of badge to cruise on for quite a long time. The STS is fortunate enough to be gauranteed at least moderate sales to the buy american crowd. I expect the GS and M to remain strong, at the expense of A6 but mostly RL. Finally, if you're not going to replace the NSX, just stop selling it. How many NSXs has Acura sold this year? 5? Its just an embarrasment, its the Chevy Astro of sports cars.
Looks. Well for one thing, the car isn't photogenic. Have you seen an RL in person. Its a really nice looking car and not as bland as everybody says. I saw one today and it looks pretty aggressive in styling. But you be the judge.
Price Part 1. The fully loaded RL price has given some customers sticker shock. Its like buying a case of beer, should I buy it for $9.99 or $11.28? I would say $9.99, but the $9.99 beer is warm and doesn't come with a can opener. The lack of option packages also allows Infiniti and Lexus to suck in customers under false assumptions. Do you see the Infiniti M commericals and they show the price as: starts at $39,900, $56,000 as shown. Now that's false advertising, can I say, $16,100 difference?
Price Part 2. To buy a GS300AWD, M35X or RL you are going to spend $50K or more. Also, the invoice price on the loaded RL is about $4K less than the similar equipped GS300AWD or M35x invoice price. Most consumers don't see that, they see the $50K sticker..while the M35x is $41,000 and GS300AWD is $44,000.
Performance. Honda engines are high rev, low torque. If you drive hondas, you know what you are getting in a 3.5L / 300HP engine. Although, the new RL does seem to have good performance numbers from the car rags. Still less torque. That's a bummer
Bigger V8 or V10. There are rumors that Honda/Acura will build a bigger flagship sedan and add a V8. Some people might think Honda is a 4cylinder shop, but they have a very successful racing history, more successful than Toyota and Nissan. They ruled Formula 1 racing in the 90's, currently supply alot of the Indy race engines and have returned to Formula 1 racing. If they build a V8 or V10, I'm sure it will be top notch.
In a nutshell, I think Acura missed the big prize with the RL. The RL value story does work for some but in this hot sedan market, people will buy a $60,000 E350 just to have a Benz...and that doesn't help the RL. Hopefully they will correct some pricing and options in the 2006 RL.
The TSX is also nothing more than a European/Japan spec Accord. I would juggle the Level 1,2,3 breakdown as follows....
Level I --- TSX and TL, 3-series, ES, C-class, G35, add: A4
Level II --- RL, 5-series, GS, E-class, M35, add: A6
Level III ---7-series, LS, S-class, Q45, Acura currently has NO such flagship car, add: A8
The NSX is also a cult car, a halo car, and one that has no direct competition. It's a holy grail to Honda. It doesn't mean it's a great car (especially with its eye-watering MSRP), but to call it the "Chevy Astro of sports cars" is way out of line.
But we just disagree. And that's okay!