Luxury Performance Sedans

lexusguy · April 2005

"Jaguar needs a new X-Type, which imo should be engineered on a new compact rwd platform that could also support that F-Type sports car".

Its a great theory, but it wont happen. This is a company that plans to support its entire lineup of cars all based on Mazda and Volvo platforms. There's just no way they are going to spend the cash on an all new platform that will support at best one or two cars. Even if they DO spend the money for an all new, Jaguar designed compact RWD platform for the X-type, whats going to happen 5 years later? Are the Germans and Japanese just going to sit still and wait for poor old X-type to get its next redesign? Not a chance. The X-type was a failed experiment to turn Jaguar into a a 200K+ sales volume maker. I dont think there will be another.

Buying a compact and very powerful Yamaha V8 was a very smart move for Volvo. I wonder if it will end up in the next S80 as well. That is really the one dull spot in Volvo's line. It competes with the Toyota Avalon, and costs too much. They either need to make it into a car actually worthy of being invited to a C&D midsize sport\lux comparo, or just get rid of it. Maybe Acura should give Yamaha a call.

merc1 · April 2005

.....sigh.....

I guess you're right, but it was a nice dream though. I don't think Jaguar will make it without something in the entry-level segment. A nice crossover might work, but I'm not sure if it fits the Jaguar image.

I disagree about the S80 competing with the Avalon, well maybe up until this year because the Avalon really came out the bag with this redesign in features/size/power, but before that no comparison to me. I still doubt that the Avalon will match the Volvo in dynamics, but neither are terribly sporty. The S80 T6 is a nice car, but you're right "nice" doesn't cut it anyomore. I had read somewhere that the V8 will be put into the S80 when it gets redesigned.

M

lexusguy · April 2005

I think the idea is to turn Jaguar into a Maserati. They've got one full size luxury car, and one GT coupe\convertible, and thats probably what Jaguar will be left with, unless the next S-type shows up before 2020 and performs some kind of miracle. I'm not sure that will work any better than right now, though. As for the S80, at least the NA 2.9 engine definitely competed with the old Avalon. I tested both cars with a friend of my wife who was looking for a big car in the $30s range, she picked the Avalon. I didnt find the 2.9 to be any sportier than the Avalon. Nor did it feel any quicker. Also, shockingly, the seats werent all that great. We tried the T6 briefly, and while the handling was a bit better, the torque steer was not.

What I'd like to see from Volvo with the next S80 is a real performance sedan, AWD, with either the Yamaha 8, or a T6 making a minimum of 280hp, or both. I know they can do it, their 2.5L 5 is capable of 300 horses after all. A big cushy boat thats not particularly good at anything and not particularly luxurious and comes in at $40K+ like the current car isnt going to work. The ES350 will crush it. Take it up market, or just let it die.

merc1 · April 2005

Oh I forgot about the base S80, yeah that does compete in that range, hp and everything. I can't believe you all didn't like the Volvo's seats. The first time I sat in an S80 I didn't want to ever get out the seats were so comfortable. I just can't come to grips with a car that looks like an Avalon no matter how nice it drove etc. Different strokes for different folks.

The ES350? The ES is getting the 280hp engine from the Avalon?

M

lexusguy · April 2005

It was wierd. I normally love Volvo seats, but the ones at least in the '01 S80 that I tested didnt do much for me. I saw that echoed in a review of the S80 as well. I've also driven a C70 coupe and several S60s, loved the seats in both cases. In that case, Toyota was willing to deal, Volvo wasnt. Also, residuals on the S80 are miserable, so I think she made the better choice.

From what I understand, ES will become ES350 with the '07 redesign. As for the RX, not sure. Its redesign probably wont come until 2010 or so, and my guess is it will become RX350 and RX450h, or something like that.

commofficer · April 2005

Lexusguy- I didn't mean to put down the XK8 or XKR by my comments. I would love to have an XKR coupe because I feel that it represents what Jaguar has always stood for. It needs to get the all Al body and frame though. It would shred the competition if given a fighting chance by Ford. Now as for the rest of the stable I think the XJ is a great vehicle BUT it carries baggage that makes it hard for someone who owned one in the past and experienced the frustrations that went along with that ownership to purchase another. I am 37 years old and I am starting to get into that target range which Jaguar should be shooting for. I would never give them a dime for an X-Type or an S-Type no matter how fast, light or cheap they were. They just don't have what the XKR has that says "Jaguar" to me.
What would save Jaguar? Include maintenance like the Audi plan and dropping $5000 of the price of the X-Type. The wagon looks really good but the $36,000 price without options is a feeble attempt at humor. What idiot would price this wagon so high above the sedan, that nobody wants, and then.............
Sorry, but I would buy the wagon but obviously it is a dead issue now that it is moronic economic choice. "Hello Hertz, Yes I would like to borrow one of those X-Type wagons, that only you own, for a trip...."

As for Volvo.....................the XC90 is nice and with the price of gas today I would consider one for my wife to haul the kids around in IF they dropped a hybrid engine in and INCREASED gas mileage. Volvo/Ford has instead decided to drop the V8 engine into it, imo 2 years too late, and it will get worse mileage. I test drove a S40 last fall and I was more impressed by the center console than the vehicle. The Mazda3, platform sister, had better performance and seats. The S80 was a brilliant vehicle in 1999 when I drove one that I rented. It hasn't progressed much since then. Still a great vehicle but the price is crazy.
Audi makes a beautiful vehicle with great interiors and exteriors. Fit and finish is great too. The A8 is one of the best full size sedans built. I would lease any one of their products but I would not want to own one for the long term. The loss is too great.
I disagree with the comment that Land Rover will be doing well soon. I'm not brilliant and I know I am treading on thin ice with this thought but the market for SUVs seems to be getting smaller and their vehicles get horrible gas mileage. The Freelander is not really competitive against the same price vehicles from Japan and the new Disco is going to cost more than the last one. Have you seen what these vehicles go for after a couple of years? Bring the Defender 110 back with the diesel that the guys over here have and price it a little over the Jeep and you will make a killing. (IMO, of course)
I got off the sport sedan topic there-apologies to the host. I'll do better next post.

SAAB- The SAAB trailblazer is NOT funny. Another idiot thought this would be a good idea.........and the GM badge? There should be a no cost GM badge delete option available. The Sabaru was not a bad idea but it won't save SAAB. The Sportcombi on their website looks good but the price will either be too high or they will do something else to reduce it's chance to help SAAB. My apologies go out to both of the very loyal SAAB buyers reading this and the other 8 buyers from the NE. :-)

Okay back to work.

Capt. Phil

cstiles · April 2005

Hello Capt. Phil---agree with your observations, except for your thought about saving the X-Type. Don't know if there is a way to accomplish that. In fact, Jaguar is doing just the opposite---eliminating the low end (2.5) and putting their eggs into a luxed out version (3.0) at the upper end of MSRP. The basic problem with the X-Type is that it is not really a Jaguar, but a Ford Mondeo. With apologies to the (decent-in-its-own-right-but-not-a-luxury-car) Mondeo, but no matter how much you polish a turd, at the end you're still left with a turd.

The S-Type is also mostly a Ford under the skin. Lurking beneath a body and interior that is vaguely appropriate to the Jaguar brand is a Lincoln.

Asking prices may suggest otherwise, but Saabs probably don't qualify as "luxury performance cars" in the mindset of most U.S. consumers. I respect Saab for following a different arc for many decades, but a 4-cylinder turbo and front wheel drive just don't excite the typical American luxury car shopper. Look at the exceedingly repetitive posts on the Infiniti board that wax poetic about the (nice) M35/45 and its powerband. Speed and torque that come wrapped in nice leather, decent sound systems, 18/19 inch wheels, and roomy back seats are what tickles our fancy. That's just not what Saab does.

All hail the WRX, but a Saab version is an answer to a question that nobody asked.

Absolutely agree with you that SUV's in general are on their way down. At least the luxo-barges that get 10 mpg. GM is in deep crapola. Did you know that GM stock is actually selling for less than it did 40 years ago, while the S&P has risen more than 1,600%? Chew on that for a while as you watch a Suburban roll down the assembly line. Glad to see Cadillac enjoying a rebirth, but the LaCrosse, G6, and Cobalt explain why Mr. Lutz is no longer GM's car czar. The Solstice and new Saturns better do well, but I wouldn't bet against the Miata and the slew of Saturn competitors.

Ooops, I'm no longer talking about luxury performance cars.

Hope you are out of harm's way over there. My cousin is serving as a medic near Baghdad and we get periodic updates from him and pray for his imminent and safe return. Godspeed to you also.

lexusguy · April 2005

The XKR has DNA that dates back to the mid 70s XJ-S. I've owned an XJ-S, and while the outside is radically different and still gorgeous (the XK literally survives on looks alone) when you drive the car, you know whats really under there. The one thing I still dont like in the transition from XJ-S to XK8\R is that the XJ's interior was exceptional from a materials standpoint. Ergonomically it was a nightmare, the car WAS designed in the '70s after all, but the seats, the wood, magic. It was the poor man's Rolls Corniche. Like all of the rest of Jag's current line, the new one took a giant step backward in materials. As for the X-type, Jag has ALREADY chopped several thousand off the price. A well equiped 3.0 used to run in the mid $40s. The price reduction didnt work. I just dont think the car is salvagable. Mark Fields, executive VP of PAG in the Automobile interview was very ambigious. He said that they grew well from '98 sales of `50,000 cars to 120,000 cars. Thats great and all, but you dont close plants when your "growing well". When Automobile asked about an X-type replacement, he gave a very political non-answer about being different. Absolutely no details whatsoever. I am however, very interested in the '07 XK, with its poor man's DB9 looks. At least the interior of the ALC concept was very nice and FINALLY NO J-GATE!!! I'm really hoping those details make it into production.

The XC90 isnt bad, but my wife is very happy with her RX. Its a lightweight compared to the Europeans, so the V6 provides plenty of performance AND fuel economy, even without the electric motor. I have no doubt that Lexus will sell every 400h that comes off the line though. The XC90 has definitely been a big success for Volvo though, and most importantly, it is NOT a rebadged Ford Explorer, as the 9-7x is to Trailblazer. Its perfectly fine to develop a mass market product like the Freestyle from a luxury developed platform like the Volvo P2. Whats NOT fine is to make a lux-ute out of your mass market platform, GM.

To the Saab heads that say the 9-2 and 9-7x are stop gap measures, they are. To be replaced by other GM rebadges. The next vehicle in the Saab pipeline is a "9-5x" which will be a rebadged Chevy Equinox\Pontiac Torrent. Woohoo. The only way I can see Saab working is a sort of alternative to Cadillac, using the Sigma architecture for those not into the "art&science" design direction. I might be interested in at least test driving a Saab version of the CTS with RWD or AWD and the 3.6L DOHC V6. Continued rebadges of Chevy products will only lead them on a path to their ultimate demise. Good bye Sweden. Hello Saabldsmobile.

cstiles, I liked the comment that automobile made about a GM exec looking at the Ridgeline and then bashing it. Basically what they said is that GM might want to get their OWN business in line before they start ripping apart actually innovative products from a PROFITABLE automaker.

grappicker · April 2005

I have been test driving the new M35 and M35 Sport...Is it me or does the engine on these models rev when at higher speeds and also hesitate.

Can someone tell me the latest on the money rate for a M35 Sport?

cdnpinhead · April 2005

for helping to explain why the American car industry is going down the toilet, at least in this segment. Well written & insightful.

I tried to give Lincoln a shot, but it was the wrong time.

I'm not sure there was ever a right time.

I'll be going back to Asian for my next ride, I'm fairly certain.

lexusguy · April 2005

Asia is where its at. The traditional big Japan 3 all have very strong products across the line, and even Subie and Mazda finally have some interesting products. They've kept the reliability and resale value, and have even figured out how to make cars fun to drive.

With Korea shoring up the inexpensive reliable everyday transportation role, it leaves little room for the rest of the world.

pat · April 2005

Try asking in either the Infiniti M35/M45 2006+ discussion or the Lease Questions - Ask Here discussion. Those are probably the best resources for your questions.

Good luck and welcome!

lexusguy · April 2005

If Lexus can make an SC430 that I can stand looking at, and that drives a little less like the ES330, I'd dump my XK for it pdq. I am interested to see what Lexus and Infiniti come up with for the G and IS drop tops.

bartalk3 · April 2005

on reving higher: As I recall, a MT test a onth or two ago showed that at 60mph, the M35 revs at 2,500rpm, compared to 1,750-2,000 to the other lux performance cars in the test.

mnjoe · April 2005

So now I way in. I've driven several of these. Keep reading how Audi has the best interiors. Would've agreed 3 years ago (last time I was in the market for a new car). Thought the interior of the new A6 was boring. Like the exterior and liked the car. The GS300AWD is a very capable and comfortable car. I agree it lacks a passion. Lacking passion is also the RL. Technically a great car, but I can't get past the exterior appearance and tight space. Haven't seen an STS AWD yet, so haven't driven that car (very pricey but they'll probably subsidize the leases alot as they have in the past). I loved the M35x. I really like the rosewood trim. Has anyone seen an umbria gray car on the road? How's it look? Any opinion if the M35x AWD system will perform well in snow with the stock tires? (I honestly will never get around to putting on winter tires).

I really have enjoyed reading this discussion group and appreciate your feedback!!

big_jim · April 2005

mnjoe:

I drove all of those cars, and then bought the one that I wasn't even going to test drive....a rear wheel drive 2006 530i. I flat out had a blast driving it, and cringe at the thought that I only drove it because it was down the road from the Acura dealership, and I had some free time. (Hated the RL, btw) A6 was probably my next choice, but the fact that the salesperson seemed annoyed that a guy driving a hyuandi was coming in for a test drive cemented the fact that the 530i was way more fun to drive...and that was the old smaller engine.

And yes - I will be springing for snow tires since I am in MN. However, I know several folks here in MN that do just fine without them. If you are looking at AWD because you are in MN (mnjoe??) you may want to reconsider. The rwd's are just more fun to drive (and they have traction control.)

mnjoe · April 2005

Being in MN is why I'm looking at the AWDs. I haven't driven the 530i for that reason ... you think I should take a look, huh?

big_jim · April 2005

I do, if for no other reason than your own peace of mind. Heck, you've driven everything else! My guess is you'll either love it or hate it. I am in the Twin Cities, and ordered my loaded up 530i a couple of weeks ago. It just completed production yesterday. I too had a hard time with it being RWD, but then took a hard look at the number of times I benefit from my AWD every year. Answer: Not many. And even on those (snowstorm) days, while my AWD vehicle kept me on the road, traffic was still so bad that I never got over 15 mph anyway. So I wound up going off the deep end and got the sport package, just to make sure that I will buy snow tires

However, you will have a hard time finding an '06 on the lot. The remaining 05's should give you a good feel though, as they are the same except '06 has a bigger engine. And if you are still hell-bent on AWD, the 530xi will be out soon. You can even order one today!

Good luck.

turnbowm · April 2005

Engine size for the 2005 and the 2006 530i is the same.... 3.0-liters. The 2006, however, has 30 more hp (255 vs 225).

Martin

lexusguy · April 2005

If you decide you dont need AWD, keep in mind that for the price of a loaded 530i, you can get into a V8 from Infiniti. Handling, power, reliability, all go to Infiniti. Remind me why the BMW is worth it again?

kdshapiro · April 2005

Because one wants to drive the car, not talk to it? And you want to drive with AWD?

hpowders · April 2005

Because no matter what the autorags say, nothing out there in the luxury sports sedan category drives like a BMW.

pasgener · April 2005

I agree. The M drives just as well as a 5-series, and an M45 certainly beats a 530. In terms of every other measure, the M is superior (interior is nicer, interior space is greater, and there is more available gadgetry). Of course the M does not have a propeller-logo on the front, which is important to many.

One reason to opt for the 5-series is if you simply MUST have a manual transmission (not available on the M).

designman · April 2005

Remind me why the BMW is worth it again?

No use. You think the X3 is a "tarted up Rav4." Hilarious.

markcincinnati · April 2005

We all want, perhaps NEED to justify and rationalize why we did what we did with respect to -- where we are -- car buying. I am confident I would have been delighted with the Audi A6 and even though I am, thus far, delighted with my decision to go with the Infiniti M35x, I do understand the statements "nothing drives like a BMW" or words to that effect. The purchase of a BMW in MN is particularly impressive. The fact that the BMW is the only premium lux/sport car with a stick shift is, I am certain, why it was selected. If I were NOT such an AWD bigot, I can certainly understand going for the 530i 6speed manual myself.

Moreover, the lease prices on these 5 series cars were darn near $200 per month less than the Audi A6's when comparably MSRP'd. The M35x too comes in about like that when compared with the Audi.

But I have to take the automatic transmission -- a fact that my wife will not let me forget, as she equates the auto with AARP (unfortunately she has a point).

So, as has been said by many of us here on the forums and certainly by the editors of at least 3 or 4 prominent auto magazines, "with the possible exception of the Jaguar, none of these premium lux/sporty cars in the $50K class is a bad car or one that you will not be happy with." Many of the editors love the M's, some the A6 (Automobile magazine for instance) -- when the "objective points" are laid out, the differences are often quite slim between number 1 and number 5 (out of a field of 7 or 8 usually).

If there had been a 530xi at an Infiniti price (or close), and the promise to keep it available with a manual transmission was unbroken, that would probably have been my choice, too.

Of course ditto the A6 -- especially if it were 6 speed manual equipped.

So, as some have accused me, "I settled" for a M35x -- but after having driven many of the competition's offerings, I don't feel as if I settled on anything (considering I was unwilling to go 2WD even for the stick shift.)

The Infiniti does feel very Germanic -- almost but not quite. But certainly close enough to not keep me awake wondering "what have I done?"

designman · April 2005

The Infiniti does feel very Germanic -- almost but not quite.

Glad to hear you understand this. The hardcore Japanese-car crowd doesnt get it, never will. They use to say that performance wasnt important. Now that performance points are showing up in reviews it means something to them. If they really were bent on value as they claim, they should buy the lower priced Japanese cars that dont perform and, as we know, there are plenty of them. I mean, why pay more money for a performance car when you dont need that kind of vehicle?

FYI, the following comes from a someone who posts on the BMW 5-Series Sedans thread:

I have a new 06 530i I am a sales manager at an Infiniti dealership

That should raise an eyebrow or two. If I were interested in an Infiniti M, Id go over there and pick his brains. Would be great to know what his pitch is to customers who are cross shopping these two cars.

markcincinnati · April 2005

Thus far, NO ONE, has come up with a 100% German feeling car -- not Cadillac's fine CTS, not Infiniti and certainly nothing from Lexus. The phrase from VW's yes VW's really did describe it best (when translated, of course) "the driving pleasure" or "the feel behind the wheel" (Far Fig New Ton, phonetically, sort of.) Yet, after tons of test drives, the M35x came darn close to the feel of an Audi A6 -- and I was most impressed with the M when I test drove it back to back with a BMW 330xi -- same test route, etc.

There is, currently, a certain feel that the Audi, BMW, Mercedes, even and some VW's too, have that the Japanese engineers, I am now convinced (because of the M) are cognizant of and want to emulate. The M has indeed "emulated" the feel of the German cars, particularly the BMW (because the M is somewhat less nose heavy than the Audis, IMHO).

The M35x with a sport suspension option and a 6speed manual -- now that would be a remarkable car. But, the Japanese in this class (and frankly Audi and Mercedes, too) are pretty conservative and pragmatic. My guess is they know their audience.

Of course the two BMW dealers here in Cincinnati, do sell manual 3's and 5's -- but if you search the inventory on a Sunday afternoon (wandering up and down the lot, peering into each and every 3 and 5) is is clear to see that a significant majority of these cars have been ordered (by the dealer, unsold) with automatics.

The customers must buy a heck of a lot more autos than sticks. And, one last observation, virtually all 3's with AWD (X-Drive) are automatics. Only one stick could be found yesterday (and yes, I know there is a new 3 coming soon, but this lack of sticks in the AWD versions is not new).

Mercedes doesn't even offer a stick with AWD -- and they make it clear "4Matic" is its name.

Finally, the sales rep who sold me the Infiniti M35x used to sell BMW's -- the sales rep who sold my wife her BMW X3 used to sell Infinitis and still thinks the G35's "aren't bad" -- for Nissan's.

We all have our biases.

Had I a magic wand, I would want an A6 Sline with a manual transmission. It will never happen, unless I somehow acquire Jay Leno money.

kyfdx · April 2005

Funny.. I made the rounds at The BMW Store on Friday... Not many E46 3-series left..

And, without fail, non-sport packages were automatic, sport packages were manual.. which makes sense, but it does cut down on your options..

And, interestingly enough.... about 5 330xi left... I don't want one, but with the $4K incentive, you might be able to make a good deal..

designman · April 2005

Ever consider the S4?

lexusguy · April 2005

I have two wonder if VW is heading away from the core teutonic driving is our #1 kind of thing. For example, none of the reviews I've seen of the new Jetta have particularly praised its handling or steering. From what I understand, a Mazda3 can mop the floor with it in terms of performance. Then there's the Passat, which appears to be going in a mini-Phaeton direction. Based on the prices of the Jetta, I have to assume that a loaded Passat VR6 will be into TL\G\IS350 money, and I think all three cars will be able to out handle it.

mikestevens · April 2005

There seems to be a real disconnect between most of the auto mags and the posters on this and other boards regarding the RL. The RL places very near the top in most comparo's yet there seems to be a real dislike of it among posters looking in this price range. I haven't driven one yet, but I'm curious as to why the scribes like it so much given their long time adoration of BMW (which to me would be the antithesis of the Acura driving experience), while most test drivers are under whelmed.

mnjoe · April 2005

I want to restate that I really appreciate all of your comments. Mark, we seem to think alot alike.
Anyone seen the umbria grey?
On the issue of the RL, I just didn't like the exterior. The drive was fine. Just no spirit.

designman · April 2005

I haven't driven one yet, but I'm curious as to why the scribes like it so much given their long time adoration of BMW (which to me would be the antithesis of the Acura driving experience), while most test drivers are under whelmed.

I believe people have a hard time overcoming prejudices. They have a lock on this V8 thing and the previous vanilla RL. Also, Acura did compromise the size and its an optionless take-it-or-leave-it car. And it will never gain acceptance among the RWD people. So its market is limited. I havent driven it yet but when I see it on the road its gait suggests a nice tight ride and they seem to be driving them hard. It also has the sportiest and cleanest appearance out of all the cars in this group IMO.

markcincinnati · April 2005

I didn't mean to suggest that there were 2005 3 series spreading far and wide as the eye could see. In fact I grant that the upcoming new 3 (and 5) may be part of the reason for the configurations that are remaining. We did see 1 X3 3.0 with sport and stick -- I bet that one will go "really discounted" if it ever goes at all.

markcincinnati · April 2005

Until I saw the Liquid Platinum and the Bourbon Interior, I had thought Umbria and Bourbon would be THE combination.

I have seen Umbria and I have seen Bourbon -- not together, however.

I was able to test an M in Platinum with a Bourbon interior -- the black dash makes the contrast work -- for me.

I don't understand why the Vanilla is not offered with the Bourbon -- that might have been my first choice.

And, why no Emerald Green Pearl offerings (a la Audi and BMW?) -- the Green A6 with the Amaretto (close to Bourbon) interior is quite attractive (IMHO).

The Japanese (perhaps exluding Lexus) seem to limit our choices far more than the Germans -- wonder why.

I saw a new Lexus GS this weekedn in a dark (ruby?) red pearl color -- beautiful. Of course both the A6 and the M have an interesting red color, but it is far from subtle.

I really liked the Acura TL, 6speed, that I drove -- one and only one drawback -- torque steer. Big time torque steer -- made the thing scream to be either RWD or AWD (my pref, of course, to the latter).

I got to sit in the front and back of the Acura RL -- never did get to drive it. The interior was "almost" Audi like (like the offspring of an Audi and a Lexus). I liked it. I saw the Accord's features in the RL, and the BMW butt. I would hardly say I didn't like it, but it certainly seemed small inside. The test reports about its "anemic" (and I am quoting) engine did confuse me -- almost as if it was the number of pistons it has rather than its performance that matters. Then the car journalists turn right around and praise the M (even with the V6!) go figure.

The interior of the M and the A6 were my faves -- although I did "appreciate" what Lexus was trying to do with the new GS. The new GS interior seemed like a very upscale "men's club" -- lots of wood and high back leather chairs, etc etc. I think you need an ascot to drive a Lexus -- sadly, I don't even own an ascot.

Anyway -- Umbria exterior looks great to me -- I think it would beg to be configured with a Bourbon interior. I personally just couldn't take an all black interior -- too confining, too closed "feeling," but that's a personal pref kind of thing -- it probably would look great with the black leather (as long as I didn't have to live with it).

lexusguy · April 2005

The problem I have with the automags (and Edmunds as well) in regards to the RL is that when they compare it to the other cars, they seem to have some kind of mental block when considering its competition, that or they bite the Acura line without question. The RL doesnt compete with the GS430 and Infiniti M45, but thats what it is very often compared to (including Edmunds). The next line usually says "what a screaming value!". The RL is not a screaming value. The box might say 300 horses, and the Acura PR sheet might say it competes with the V8s, but there are still only 6 cylinders, and the cars actual performance is right square in V6 territory. Mark, the "anemic" trait the press mentions comes from a lack of low-end torque, a trait the VQ 3.5 does not share. It IS a Honda engine after all. Honda and low-end grunt dont mix. When properly compared with the rest of the V6s in the class, the RL's price is merely competitive...providing you want it loaded. If not, a faster M35 can be had for less money.

I dont think the RL is a bad car. I just think the M completely outclasses it.

mnjoe · April 2005

I agree that the natural competitor to the RL is the M35 or GS300. When loaded with options they all go for about 50K.

markcincinnati · April 2005

For several years -- especially early on, not so much since 2000 -- the Acura RL was said to have targeted the Audi A6 (nee 100) -- the logic was that the FWD Audi (even though quattro was available) was an upscale VW (Quantum, or something) and that the FWD Acura was an upscale Honda (Accord, etc). For whatever reason, Audi kept pushing its AWD competence (especially in the US) and with a glimmer here and there its performance competence: first with the Audi 5000 turbo, then the 5000 CS quattro and moving right along to the 100, 100CS and the 200 with the 20 valve engine and the powerful turbo. The A class Audis perhaps paved the way for the S4, S6, then again the S4, S8 and the RS classes. Acura went into "asleep at the wheel mode" from what I can tell.

The new RL, yep, that lack of low end torque even with its high hp (must be for bragging rights only) was once again aimed at the Audi brand (some even wondered if the bustle butt suggested that Acura had even fancied a run at BMW -- I say "na baby na" to that), hasn't been enough to ruffle either the V6 or the V8 "M's" and I often wonder how many folks cross shop the A6 3.2 and the RL (hmm, maybe more than I would think, perhaps).

The new RL, however, seems to me to be darn close to a bargain if you attempt to content up an A6 or a BMW 5 to have the same number of gizmos.

SH-AWD -- what a great idea and apparently well executed. But I read it was really something that was needed to neutralize the RL's twin demons: too much weight on the front end and front wheel drive biased All Wheel Drive (a la Volvo). This is somewhat odd, considering that the engineers who designed this thing must've read the criticisms about Audi quattro's f/r weight distribution (too much weight on the nose and yet still decent handling despite this imbalance) and often "just passable" 50 50 torque split (passable according to those folks who write about these cars for a living, that is).

When given almost a clean sheet to birth a new flagship, one does have to wonder about some of the choices Acura (for one) made. Of course, I wonder why Audi didn't press forward a little bit faster to create a better balanced A6. I can forgive the delay in making quattro RWD biased since at least it was already 50 50.

Anyway, the Acura RL is still hardly ever seen on the highways and byways around and in Cincinnati -- but the A6 and even the Infiniti and Lexus are starting to be less and less rare. This is somewhat more telling, too, given that the Acura was pretty early coming to market, at least compared with the Infiniti and Lexus models.

With a pause to refresh, I must say, however, that the A6 3.2 on paper (I have driven both versions several times) is also somewhat of a disappointment in the "quickness" category. I often wonder how marketing can let the outgoing A6 S-Line sit on the showroom floor next to the new identically priced A6 3.2 and be over a half a second slower to freeway speeds?

Perhaps it was thought the new A6 3.2 would be compared with the outgoing A6 3.0 (at often almost $10,000 less -- I say, "no way!")

The winners (based on unit sales), apparently, are the Japanese and even BMW's "old" (hardly) 530. The Audi is doing well in comparison to itself a year ago, but is not doing as well as the usual suspects from Acura, BMW, Infiniti and Lexus. So the Acura is too small, too weak and too expensive? While I must agree with a lot of the stuff I read about these cars both here and in the magazines, one thing is certain, the Japanese Premium Lux/Performance cars appear to be "comparably priced at MSRP (or somewhat less)" and outselling the Germans, save for the BMW (which may be doing so well recently due to some incentives.)

Acura it would seem needs to work a bit more on the performance part of the equation, otherwise it seems they did a pretty good job with the RL. Of course, as someone here said (you I think, Mike) the "M" does outclass it.

cstiles · April 2005

The large majority of the posts on the M35/45 and RL boards on Edmunds are coming from around 10 (or fewer) people. This is not a statistically relevant sampling--at least not as fas as the M and RL are concerned. It may say more about the fact that some of us need to get out more, instead of being parked in front of our computers or Blackberries at home or at work (guilty as charged).

The RL marches to its own drum. On one hand it is "Honda-boring" (or "Honda-sensible?"), while on the other hand it offers a unique blend of technology, driving experience, performance, and reliability. It is a FWD platform stretched to go AWD. The Infiniti is a RWD platform stretched to go AWD (in the M35X). The driving dynamics will be different. The Nissan VQ also has more low end punch, although it doesn't rev to nosebleed territory like the Honda motors can do all day long.

Honda V6 power must rev (buttery) high to find its powerband. Not what some consumers expect in their luxury boat, especially if they start with the notion that a car should at least offer a V8. That has never been Honda's philosophy. They kicked and screamed before they dropped a V6 into the Accord, since they've always believed that the VTEC 4 cylinder is the better choice in terms of efficiency and even performance. Honda engineers just plain think differently. Almost like those BMW engineers kicking and screaming before they finally put cup holders in their cars. And to date, Audi makes some of the worst cup holders on Mother Earth. I give them brownie points for that since it means they are focusing on other (more important) features.

The RL will also appeal to a more conservative customer who probably doesn't care to post comments on Edmunds and also couldn't care less that it is half a second slower to 60mph. But I'm positive that Honda would love to shake free from the stigma of the previous RL's, which appealed to the Country Club, retired set, rather than you and me. The RL driver may also be more like the A6 driver, while the M35/45 driver is probably more like a BMW driver. The Lexus driver is probably more of a blend, simply because powerful Toyota has the resources to appeal to a more diverse driver population.

Just my very unscientific opinion on this fine Monday. By the way, my wife drives an 05 RL, which puts me behind the wheel about 20% of the time. As long as she's happy, I enjoy the spoils.

cstiles · April 2005

Agree with Mark that the RL is a relative bargain. Especially at around $45K to $45.5K, which is where most current sales are ringing in. That still delivers a $1500 to $2000 profit to the dealer.

lexusguy · April 2005

Actually that was me. ATTESA-ETS doesnt have the torque shifting abilities of SH-AWD, but as you said, it doesnt need them. The M doesnt naturally come loaded with understeer. Even still, the 45 does offer rear wheel steering, (something Nissan has been dabbling with since the '80s) to provide a similar effect. If I remember correctly, the RL is bringing up the rear of the new mid-lux class in sales, with something like 1300 in march. Sales are up over the old car... but not that much, and sales of the old car were pathetic. The GS is enjoying 3x the sales numbers, despite the RL's significant lead to market.

kyfdx · April 2005

I agree with a lot of your generalizations about Acura buyers and also Honda corporate philosophy...

They are constantly targeting a "more for your money" type of customer..

Rather than compete directly, they like to shoot for a "nearly competitive" car at a much lower price point..

Ergo... the TL vs. the 5-series/GS/E class...

RL vs. 7-series/LS/S class....

Now, cognescenti realize that the RL doesn't really have the features, V-8, etc. to compete with those cars, but the majority of buyers see three basic levels of luxury cars..

Level I --- TSX, 3-series, ES, C-class, G35

Level II --- TL, 5-series, GS, E-class, M35

Level III --- RL, 7-series, LS, S-class, Q45

So, the RL looks like a screaming buy... and for 98% of buyers, it is all the car they will ever need.. They think the rest of the people are idiots for paying over $60K for a car that is no better than their RL.

I hate the term: perception is reality, but in this case, it applies directly...

regards,
kyfdx

commofficer · April 2005

The Acura performance sedan was a great buy and a pretty cool car back in the 90's. Remember the second generation 2 door Legend? Not a bad performer and it look good too. Acura then decided to let go of the performance sedan crowd and shot for the over 55 crowd that just wanted a very dependable luxury ride. It will take some time for the RL to catch up in the minds of performance buyers. They did it with the Civic also and now they are trying to get the performance minded buyer back on their side. It's the same as the first generation Infinity with a hot V8 and active suspension and all that cool stuff back in ~1989 and then the second generation and this new generation of Q45s came out. Fat cars built for non-performance seeking customers. An example is the rear view video camera which is not something that a person who seeks performance is looking for. You should always be aware of what is around you and keep that information in your mind before you shift into reverse. If you cannot process the information regarding your surroundings or have the wherewithal to look backwards then a sport sedan is not what you NEED. You just want one because it LOOKS cool.
Acura will have to accept that time is needed before they get any recognition for this new car and they need to accept that a V8 or their excellent V10 would be a much better choice to lead the pack. I would buy a new AWD 6 Speed RL with a V10 that could maintain better than 23 mpg in the city. There is the challenge. Acura is soft though and they will never get it done right. They will make an RL-S and think that it will persuade the Infinity/BMW performance buyer to drop their cars and run to them. They are fools to think that they can compete in the V8 category of sport sedans with a V6. There is more to an engine than pure hp and you can tell the difference in a V8 and a V6 at 90 mph or even at a legal 75 mph.

The RL can not compete against the V8 sedans and Acura does not have the performance history, in sedans, to do it either. It is not a genuine attempt to provide the performance minded buyer with a true BMW/Infinity substitute but more of a stop gap measure to give their (Honda's) old bosses something that they wanted. They can make better but they chose the conservative market every time. It's in the Honda DNA now. Think "dependable" and don't alienate anyone other than those that don't already own a Honda product.

Its only the magazines that want to put the RL against performance sedans. Its was never meant to compete but just to be. Think BORG!

Capt. Sandell

commofficer · April 2005

Yes, exactly!

markcincinnati · April 2005

I just hopped over to the Acura RL town-hall.

Last post April 12, 2005 -- 6 days ago!

Perhaps interest is waning?

kfhmail · April 2005

The unbria grey looks a little like "bronze" to me.

lexusguy · April 2005

Your point really applies to the entire Honda company right now. Honda is the turtle, with the slow and steady wins the race philosophy. Nissan and Toyota are the hare. The problem is, they arent stopping to take naps. Toyota always wins the "I want a reliabile car" sale, Honda has tried to compete with them more directly in the last few years with increasing Toyota copy-cating like the current gen Civic. Enthusiasts HATE the car. Thats absolutely the last thing you want as a car company, is to lose the young adult market that may stay with you for life if they like your entry car enough to another company.

As for Acura, they need to figure out a way to make their cars sell on merit, not on the fact that they are cheap. You can get cheap from Korea. The G, FX, and M don't rely NEARLY as much on a bargain price tag as the MDX, TSX, and TL do. The RL doesnt even have that, so I think its going to fail. There's only so much room in the segment. While the E and 5 will not rule forever if they dont remain competitive, they still have plenty of badge to cruise on for quite a long time. The STS is fortunate enough to be gauranteed at least moderate sales to the buy american crowd. I expect the GS and M to remain strong, at the expense of A6 but mostly RL. Finally, if you're not going to replace the NSX, just stop selling it. How many NSXs has Acura sold this year? 5? Its just an embarrasment, its the Chevy Astro of sports cars.

mg808 · April 2005

The RL has endured mixed reviews, sales are brisk and most V8 lovers are annoyed. What is the problem, well I see a few..

Looks. Well for one thing, the car isn't photogenic. Have you seen an RL in person. Its a really nice looking car and not as bland as everybody says. I saw one today and it looks pretty aggressive in styling. But you be the judge.

Price Part 1. The fully loaded RL price has given some customers sticker shock. Its like buying a case of beer, should I buy it for $9.99 or $11.28? I would say $9.99, but the $9.99 beer is warm and doesn't come with a can opener. The lack of option packages also allows Infiniti and Lexus to suck in customers under false assumptions. Do you see the Infiniti M commericals and they show the price as: starts at $39,900, $56,000 as shown. Now that's false advertising, can I say, $16,100 difference?

Price Part 2. To buy a GS300AWD, M35X or RL you are going to spend $50K or more. Also, the invoice price on the loaded RL is about $4K less than the similar equipped GS300AWD or M35x invoice price. Most consumers don't see that, they see the $50K sticker..while the M35x is $41,000 and GS300AWD is $44,000.

Performance. Honda engines are high rev, low torque. If you drive hondas, you know what you are getting in a 3.5L / 300HP engine. Although, the new RL does seem to have good performance numbers from the car rags. Still less torque. That's a bummer

Bigger V8 or V10. There are rumors that Honda/Acura will build a bigger flagship sedan and add a V8. Some people might think Honda is a 4cylinder shop, but they have a very successful racing history, more successful than Toyota and Nissan. They ruled Formula 1 racing in the 90's, currently supply alot of the Indy race engines and have returned to Formula 1 racing. If they build a V8 or V10, I'm sure it will be top notch.

In a nutshell, I think Acura missed the big prize with the RL. The RL value story does work for some but in this hot sedan market, people will buy a $60,000 E350 just to have a Benz...and that doesn't help the RL. Hopefully they will correct some pricing and options in the 2006 RL.

cstiles · April 2005

I disagree that the RL was designed, or is even attempting, to compete with the V8 cars. Although the 8-cylinder cars get all the hype and press, the marketplace reality is that 70 to 80% of BMW 5-series, Lexus GS, Infiniti M, M-B E-class, Jaguars X/S-Types, and A6's are sold in the U.S. with a 6-cylinder.

The TSX is also nothing more than a European/Japan spec Accord. I would juggle the Level 1,2,3 breakdown as follows....

Level I --- TSX and TL, 3-series, ES, C-class, G35, add: A4

Level II --- RL, 5-series, GS, E-class, M35, add: A6

Level III ---7-series, LS, S-class, Q45, Acura currently has NO such flagship car, add: A8

cstiles · April 2005

I disagree with so many of your points in Post # 1661, but don't care to delve into them. Let's just say we disagree, not necessarily on the merits of your points, but more on the degrees to which you draw lines in the sand. It's not so much a black and white argument, but instead it's in the shades of gray. At the end, the numbers will speak for themselves, and I predict in 5 years, the TL and TSX and MDX will continue to soldier on with updated styling, while the FX may be discontinued. (Same thing with the Murano---a very cool car, but not sure if it will always exist in the marketplace once the cult status wears off.)

The NSX is also a cult car, a halo car, and one that has no direct competition. It's a holy grail to Honda. It doesn't mean it's a great car (especially with its eye-watering MSRP), but to call it the "Chevy Astro of sports cars" is way out of line.

But we just disagree. And that's okay!

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