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Based on information I have been reading about Ford Explorer lawsuits (I'm no expert on this subject), the U.S. Government rules on roof strength are that the roof must support one and one-half times the vehicles weight in a static test. (The vehicle is gently set on its roof.)
The Explorer was at something less that 2x in some past models and Ford has apparently lost lawsuits because the roof was considered too weak. Based on what I read it appears that roofs must be able to support over 1.5x the vehicle's weight, (6,000 lbs for a 4,000 lb. vehicle) and that it would be much better if the roof supported significantly more than 2x the vehicles weight.
Being an automotive engineer and having worked in both supplier and OE capacities, including Ford 2000, DB takeover of Chrysler, etc., I have learned the following:
American companies design vehicles for the shareholders. First and foremost is sales price - vehicle cost = profit. This takes more of a short term approach in both profit and vehicle cost (warranty costs, recalls, etc.). Tell an American company engineer that something doesn't work properly, and they say "we can't afford to change it".
"Asian" (c'mon..Japanese) companies design vehicles based on customer satisfaction with slow change. Vehicle price = cost + profit. This takes more of a long term approach in both profit and vehicle cost (warranty costs, recalls, etc.). Tell a Japanese company engineer that something doesn't work properly, and they apologize as well as quite possibly work to improve it.
German companies design cars to please German engineers. Admittedly, I do not know their pricing strategy or approach to change. But, tell a German engineer that something does not work properly and the response is either "you are wrong" or "we need smarter buyers". Can you say I-Drive?
Thats a big difference, but each has their intended purpose.
German chassis are definitely better built for performance. Thats food if you commute through Deal's Gap every morning. Japanese vehicles give far superior total vehicle creature comfort satisfaction including ergonomics, simple to use gadgets, and NVH. US vehicles have horsepower and excellent exhaust tuning. Pick your pleasure.
When I first read that, I thought you were crazy, but the more I look at the both of them side by side, I kind of see your point, especially with the 3-dials in the lower center console theme contained in both.
5: http://us.autos1.yimg.com/img.autos.yahoo.com/ag/bmw_5series_525isedan_2005_interior_19_34- 6x270.jpg
M:
http://www.autoweek.com/weekart/2004/0503/0503-M45_interior.jpg
I'd say that Infiniti absolutely considered the 5 when designing the M (as the 5 was their target) and they absolutely did a better job.
Aside from the blandness, the outdated temp dials, iDrive, and the lack of compartment space in the 5 series, I found the steering wheel to be an issue as well.
It leans leftward (towards the door) and it seemed that no matter how I adjusted it, the wheel either obscured a good part of the instrument panel, and/or the view just above the dash.
In any case you can compare the 2 interior layouts posted above and decide for yourself. Personally, I like the black/rosewood combo in the M better than the aluminum, but I still think the M's AL layout makes the 5's look, as previously stated, 'underwhelming at best.'
Oh, and iDrive is not too hard to get the hang of, it's just more trouble than it's worth. The 5's interior could use a few more buttons anyway.
I like these forums ">since I can learn from you guys what I don't know and discuss things that have nothing to do with my present work. Escape from reality really. Thank Gore for the Internet. :-)
Capt. Sandell
M:
http://www.autoweek.com/weekart/2004/0503/0503-M45_interior.jpg
RL http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/acura/rl/100444153/photogallery.html?app=il&pg_type=Sedan
And not to overlook a couple more ...the following seem to stand alone:
2006 A8 (Excellant)
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/audi/a8/100408895/photogallery.html?app=il&pg_type=Sedan (Click on INTERIOR)
2005 Lexus LS 430 (Amazing)
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/lexus/ls430/100414130/photogallery.html?app=il&pg_type=Sed- - - - an (click on INTERIOR)
That said, the point I was trying to make was regarding material quality, details, tightnes, craftmenship etc (I'm new to this car lingo stuff) bear with my descriptions---
In summary, even the 5's dash is intuitivly solid and well built albiet bland--conversly in my opinion the M's was intuitivly not near as well put together as the others--In my opinion you sense it 30 secs after setting in it--additionally the doors didn't feel or close like Audi's or Lexus---
I say all this with full acknowlegement that the M is an attractive car with great performace and value for the $$
However setting in them, feeling them, and simply "kicking the tires" and you can't deny the quality difference--The 5's (I'm not a BMW fan / never had one) is 3 notches up from the M--I won't even compare the Audi and Lexus
The M is like a fancy looking, elaborate, flashy, looks good in pictures CASIO stero
The others are like a tight, high quality, exspensive, well made Pioneer reciever
Regarding warranty costs, if you're repairing after it leaves the line, it's a little late for a "zero defects" strategy. Lean attempts to solve problems before the product is released to the consumer, hence the lower warranty costs absorbed by the typical Japanese mfgr. (Toyota's TPS is the benchmark methodology). Idea is to "build in quality" into the production process.
Toyota execs will tell you that a prime corporate strength is problem-solving...
The 5-Series and Infiniti-M quality are not even comparable IMO. The Infiniti has a much better feel in almost every aspect of the interior. I test drove the car yesterday, again. The 5-Series is stark and totally out-dated looking. The lower 2/3'rds of the cars interior feels like cheap plastic.
The M35/M45 interior is getting very close to Lexus and Audi quality IMO.
The E39 had a better quality interior than the E60 IMO. Infiniti has stepped up their game quite a bit.
but anyway, lexusguy is right and there is no sense arguing about these cars and their makers. goodluck and goodnight. i do like your posts lexusguy. very informative. thanks
lexIS rulz
Unfortunately its already too late for the GS. The car is currently outselling the A6 2 to 1. Its much to early to tell how the IS is going to do, but Lexus expects 45K sales, and I dont think they'll have a problem reaching that goal. If they do, Lexus will be on track to sell over 300,000 cars and continue to dominate BMW and Mercedes. The "220d" engine also may finally give them a real weapon to take to Europe.
But we can surely debate the point until the cows come home. Price irrespective, I still think BMW has the best ride/drive in it's class.
"Especially since "better" is in the eye of the beholder." Right on!
I appreciate that. I would never consider BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. Thanks.
Not all that long ago I might have written (probably did knowing me):
"Take me as an example though, I have stated before that I don't even consider Lexus or Infiniti (and definitely not Acura) when I buy a car."
That sentiment pretty well states the way I felt -- but I would go even further, during those years I certainly wouldn't have considered a BMW or a Mercedes either. The reason? None of these cars were Audis. I could quote and argue and reason concerning: statistics and facts and why Audis were "the best cars on the planet." I could never figure out my friend's attraction to BMW's -- when every one of my Audis could in several ways "better" his beloved Bimmer (and for less money.)
It is this forum (and a couple of others here on the WWW) that essentially compelled me to rethink this position -- I actually "broadened my horizons" due in part to the arguments and persuasive characteristics of many of the poster's here.
Perhaps I have changed some folks minds, too, to at least consider Audis as viable alternatives to BMW's or even some Japanese lines.
Clearly, my mind (and money) have gone for car number 28 to Infiniti. But I still argue long and loud as a fan of Audis. I still have some hurdles to overcome with respect to BMW, but to the extent that actions speak louder than words, my wife (and I) did elect the X3 3.0 over the new A4 3.2 -- so I must not be entirely anti-BMW, just "somewhat" anti-BMW for I still think they represent (a little bit) the "Emperor's New Clothes" somewhat (somewhat and a little bit should be emphasized -- since this is a significant reduction in my heretofore former skepticism about all things with the Blue & White Propeller).
Indeed the new 3 series 330xi was for more than a moment on my short list (sight unseen) after having test driven multiple times the X3 3.0 manual with sport package (wow!)
It came down to timing and a desire for an A6 sized car that did have AWD -- the new 5 series with the 255HP engine is not out and there was, on March 31 no order guide and my assumption was that equipped as I wanted, the 530AWD (xi) would be $59,000 -- even more than the A6. The M35X seemed to strike the balance all things considered -- so I went that way, knowing that I can always "go back to Audi" in about 3 years and will be able to drive my wife's BMW about 10% of the time.
I almost said, "I got out of my Audi rut. . ." But, that would have been a mischaracterization, for owning Audis has never caused me to feel as though I were in a rut.
In any case, my purpose in responding to your post is to encourage you to "check out" the competition (the 7 or 8 usual suspects) that has been assembled by Automobile Magazine, Car&Driver, Motor Trend and Road&Track.
Give them each a fair and long test drive -- even try to do so back to back with your "fave" (the BMW, I presume.) If you remain resolute that you should not even consider the offerings from Acura, Infiniti and Lexus, (or Audi or Jaguar or Cadillac) so be it. You'll get no quarrel from me.
If I can broaden my horizons, anyone can.
I use to think that I would never buy a BMW because I didn't want to send out the message that I was a yuppie...and all the baggage that goes along with the perception of a yuppie (at the time...so I am dating myself). However, I never ruled it out. After owning one (a 328 sedan), I realize that, yes, there are people who have to have a BMW to send a message, but there are clearly other reasons to own one--they are a blast to drive.
Before buying my M35x, I did not rule out BMW, Lexus, MB, Acura, Audi, Jaguar, or the lesser tier of VW, Honda, Toyota, Ford, GM, or Chrysler. I had many criteria and excluded them one by one for a variety of reasons. I will be the first to admit that I ordered in the fall without A SINGLE TEST DRIVE (I tried to test the RL, but they were all sold at the time). The others were all lacking in more areas than the M (usually based on price, size, anticipated performance--from reviews or specs, or AWD--I live in MI). Was I worried about not test driving? You bet! But I have had experience with Infiniti in the past and with my dealer. And based on reviews and comments about the G and seeing the upgraded interior of the G for 2005 (and knowing the M would be better as well as being able to compare interior size--three kids, you know) ), I knew I would love the car. I am not disappointed--far from it.
To make a long post short (too late), why would anybody exclude a make just because it is not some other make? No offense, but this seems ridiculous if one's goal is to find the car that fits best--whether it is to find the one that performs best, has the most features, gets the most bang for the buck, has the best economy, is the roomiest, is the most reliable, has the best visual appeal, or has the best combination of these. Unless of course your goal is to send the message that, "Hey, I drive a (fill in the blank)".
Carry on.
I didn't test drive the M before ordering it, either. But I did spend many (and my wife will tell you that is highly conservative) hours looking at reviews, specs, and comments on several dozen cars. So you may ask why? Simple. I got the car bug last summer and wanted a new car (old one was a "settled on" car over four years old). I didn't want to wait a whole year, but I could wait 8 months (barely). I was on the dealer's list for the new M initially. After seeing what was going to hit the streets this spring, I liked the M best based on what I could evaluate. If I were a more patient person, I would have waited, test drove, ordered, then waited some more..
I ruled the others out not because I knew I would love the M and love nothing else. I felt that I would love the M more than I would love the others based on what I knew at the time. If the 5 had more rear seat room and a lower price, I might be driving that (or at least thought about waiting more for the 5x). If the GS appealed to me more, aesthetically (I like it, but not as much as the M) and was larger on the inside, I might be driving that. Do I have buyer's remorse? No way.
I hate to admit it on the luxo performance sedans forum, and many will be surprised, but in addition to the GS and 5, I cross-shopped my car with the Honda Accord Hybrid, Ford 500 AWD, VW Passat, Volvo s40 through s80, and even considered waiting for the Saturn Aura (but I am not that patient), among others. Oh, yeah, also the other luxos--7 series, Jag S and XJ, Lexus LS, MB E and S which I am not embarrassed to admit. Obviously I excluded some on price alone.
Also, when I was growing up (in the mid to late 60's when I was in high school), somehow, someway people were "Buick People" or "Ford People" or "Chrysler People" -- I have no idea why but my dad was a Chrysler Products guy -- after his beloved Hudson Hornets (he had two of them) finally died. We always had Chryslers -- our first brand new car was a Chrysler Newport (a 1963 model); our second new car was a 1969 Plymouth Satellite -- and when I got married in 1974 it was my wedding present.
I have no clue why some of us develop an attachment to a brand of car -- but it certainly is not uncommon for someone to become a "Volvo or Acura or Chevy person."
Of course when any one of my friends would pull up in their Ford car, those of us "non - Ford" guys would kid the other young man by saying "how's your Fix Or Repair Daily?" and he would reply, you mean my "Fast On Rainy Days?" and so on.
No wonder car companies do whatever they can to retain "legacy owners" and no wonder it is such a big deal to make a "conquest" sale (Infiniti and BMW are probably high-fiving themselves to know that they got not one but two Audi loyalists to "come over to them.")
I do understand the reasons, the rationalization and so forth that we all must go through when it comes time to buy another car. My only point was to suggest that the "town hall" here and elsewhere made it somehow "OK" for me not to simply return to Audi and re-up for another 36 months for the new A6 and my wife for the new A4. We actually went out of our comfort zones after some 28 years of Audi ownership.
I would like to note here for the cyber record, that my Audis have never stranded me and although they have apparently not been as reliable as the Japanese cars are rumored to be (I have no first hand experience so for the time being it is a rumor as far as I'm concerned) -- so I would again urge our Acura and Lexus mavens to take a long test drive in a couple of German cars "just for the heck of it."
Who knows, you may find that the driving experience of the Germans really does "merit your consideration after all." Stranger things have happened, such as my conversion at least this one time to the new M -- it actually does feel like a driver's car (something I have never believed was possible from the high-line Japanese brands; and if you believe C&D Lexus still hasn't figured that out -- yet.)
We are a Honda family....well mostly...my son traded his Integra GSR in on fairly new M3. My daughter in Houston drove a Civic for years and now out of neccessity with 2 kids bought an Odyssey. (It's perfect for them.) My wife drives an EX which has 9,500 miles on it after almost 3 years. Before that it was Accords for us one after another since '84. In '96 she stayed with Honda and I went to Vigor, TL, and now the RL. It seemed like a natural progression to me. Nothing like Mark C's 27 Audis thing but I have to give him Kudo's for pulling the trigger on that one. I'm surprised the CEO of Audi, Winterkorn hasn't flown in to offer him a better lease package. As for me, I have never leased and have paid cash for the RL. It should last for a few years and maybe during that time I'll get over to International Motors. They sell Mercedes, Infinity, BMW, Porsche, Audi, and the Cooper.
Amen.
That said, I have spent plenty of weekends flogging Motorsport and AMG cars (as well as Porsche and Maserati). They are heaps of fun, I will give them that. However, I am happy to return them after an hour or so behind the wheel and return to "ol' faithful" as it were. I'm much more tolerant of potential issues with my weekend car though, otherwise I'd be in an SC430, and bored. What I'd love to see from Lexus with the next SC is for them to build it around the LF-A platform, using the regular 4.6L V8 and cutting the price in half, similar to the Chrysler Firepower\Viper.
I must say, while I am not typically someone who "only drinks Coke, never Pepsi, etc" that I think I might miss being known (internally by me) as an Audi guy. Soon I will be the "former" Audi guy (and maybe "future" Audi guy) -- I must confess also to some small sense of angst -- almost as if to second guess myself . . . "what if it isn't as nice as I thought it would be?"
I'll get over it.
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No problem Mark...I'll pass this along from Benedict XVI..."In nomine Patri et spiritue sancte."
now you are all set.
Interesting that with the 7 they have now backed off the original design and softened it (although not all that much)
Cheers.
Very true. Thanks for the correction. That will teach me to think and type at the same time!
Last time I checked quality plastics dont really weigh anymore than the cheapie stuff. I'm betting on cost cutting.
Have to agree about the low interior quality (leather, in particular) and the "old school" look of the gauges, but don't understand some of your comments.
"The dark nature of the 5'er...."
A 530i with gray leather and antrhacite maple wood trim is anything but dark.
"The hard plastic by the iDrive knob and cheezy-looking lettering on all the controls...."
The iDrive is surrounded by wood trim with a Menu button next to it. What hard plastic are you referring to? As for the cheezy-looking lettering, I just did a quick comparison of the 530i controls and those on my wife's Lexus and didn't really find that much difference. The 530i controls were, in fact, somewhat bolder (lettering) and easier to read.
"It doesn't even feel like it is built very well...."
Actually, I find the switches and controls to have a nice tactile feel with good detents for the various settings (temp, blower, etc.).
Martin
M
M
I fully agree with your opinion about BMW interiors.
José
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/05g35x.htm
José
Your post only confirms why I think a lot of folks don't like the new interiors. Even from the 1989 to the 1997 5 the interiors didn't change radically. They had the same bare, cockpit style layout which everyone got so used too. This is one reason why I think the new 5 causes so much shock. Combine this with the urge to really notice the interior materials (since the cockpit feeling is gone) and bam you have folks not liking BMW's new design motif. The 7-Series was basically the same theme from 1988 and 1995, only it got plusher to me.
I personally don't have a problem with it as it still to my eye looks very plain and BMW like though everything is more upright and straight. To me it still looks like a old-school BMW especially around the climate controls and the other few switches left. They just took out the driver focused angling of the dash/ upper center console imo.
I've always found Mercedes and Audi interiors to be far better looking than BMWs.
M