Luxury Performance Sedans

bartalk3 · April 2005

I believe I read that GM is dropping the Bonneville soon. My feeling is that the Chrysler 300, although initially a great success, will be a flash in the pan. Chrysler sales have recently declined, and they are probably in the same boat as GM and Ford, only on a slightly delayed trajectory. With Mercedes losing money for the first time since the merger (on quality issues), the company is clearly in more trouble now than it's been.

xkss · April 2005

"They are banking on cars like the Solstice to bring in sales & dollars, but when you go and aim for a September introduction date for a convertible you have to wonder if they are purposely trying to put themselves out of business!!! I mean...who in their right mind introduces a convertible in September???"

The BMW Z4 was introduced around September of 2002.

GM isn't banking on the Solstice for sales and dollars.

They are working on the new 2007 pickups and SUV along with other new products for bigger sales and more dollars.

GM should put the 4.2 liter 275 hp I-6 in the new 2007 pickups and SUVs.

The Chrysler 300 has staying power. Its styling, retro (1998 Chrysler Chronos concept car and 1957 Chrysler 300), is bold and is what they needed because they were stagnating with the previous fwd 300.

The new Dodge Magnum has generated more sales and excitement about a STATION WAGON than just about any other station wagon ever sold here in North America.

xkss · April 2005

"BTW, I thought the Jaguar V8 was totally seperate from Ford? We've had this discussion in the Jaguar topic on the News and Views board and they're saying its a Jag V8 not based on anything from Ford?"

Jaguar likes to say that, but the truth is that the Jag 3.0 engine is EXTREMELY close to the Duratec 3.0, and while the 4.2 doesnt share quite as many bits as the 3.0, its still very closely related to the Lincoln LS V8. Displacement is identical, and power is very close. They've replaced parts with "Jag spec" parts that are largely the same, but it allows them to say that a huge percentage of the V8 is Jaguar specific when it really isnt. The V8 Vantage shows what the engine can actually do when somebody REALLY works it over. The fact that the Jag version is THAT close to the Lincoln proves they didnt really do much of anything to it.

Jaguar's V-8 is NOT a Ford V-8.

It came out in the 1997 Jaguar XK8 with a 4.0 liter displacement.

The 4.2 liter V-8, which came out for the revised 2003 S-Type and XK8 and the aluminum 2004 XJ, doesn't have the potential timing chain tensioner or nikasil problems of the 4.0 liter V-8 from the 1997-2000 XK8.

check this link

Jaguar's V-8

lexusguy · April 2005

I disagree about the 300. I dont even like the car, mostly because of the styling, but I think its sales will last where other flash in the pan cars have failed because it doesnt DEPEND on its unusual styling to generate interest like the PT Cruiser or VW Beetle. Like the Mini Cooper, there's actually a great car underneath the unusual skin, and thats what equals lasting sales, rather than a great two years or so. Besides, where else can you get a 425hp sedan for that kind of money?

bartalk3 · April 2005

You may be right about the 300. I don't know much about the car and have little interest in it. I had an instant dislike of the car because it seemed like a throwback to the road locomotives Detroit produced in the 1950s, all power and style. Consumer Reports, by the way, actually preferred the Ford 500 to the Chrysler 300.

As for 425hp. When gas hits $3 a gallon, let's see how appealing these gas guzzlers are. Detroit is making the same mistake they made in the '70s when the price of gas skyrocketed, trying to sell the same old land yachts to a public that needed economy. These guys will never learn.

GM's timing is exquisite, by the way, bringing out a whole new line of huge SUVs and trucks now as the price of gas soars. And with a straight face, Lutz says these are going to sell well. Detroit has a death wish and it's going to come true.

merc1 · April 2005

That is some collection of cars! It is of some relief to know that someone sees that not all those things are the car's fault. I mean trying to drive a CL55 in the snow is a no no. Way too much power and the wrong footwear.

The bent/cracked rim thing is pretty much the price for such footwear also. The wholesale eating of tires seems to be a big problem too, especially when luxury car buyers opt for a "sport" package and then find out that their tires aren't going to last anywhere near what they did previously. On sports cars its even worse, just ask any Nissan 350Z or 911 owner.

M

cstiles · April 2005

What's interesting about the 300 is that (ignoring the original 300 series that Chrysler featured 40 years ago), the two most recent iterations are about as different as can be. The 300M was a front drive car with an overhead cam engine--a car that attempted to compete with mid-lux import "Euro-Asian" cars of the late 90's. The current 300C is a rear drive car, styled like something Al Capone would have driven, with a 5.7L pushrod "Hemi" engine. (Yes, the 3.5L SOHC "touring" version may actually outsell the Hemi, but the identity of this car is the hemi version.)

There is little synergy or evolution between the M and the C. The letters stuck on the end are basically meaningless. The two models look nothing like each other, and probably appeal to different demographics. How often does a particular Acura, BMW, Benz, etc. from model year to model year appeal to a different type of customer?

Is the 300C destined to be another "flavor of the month" car? Hard to say. But I don't believe future versions of the 300 will necessarily look like mafia staff cars with pushrods with fat power bands. This car happened to hit a perfect niche, and appeals to the traditional domestic customer who typically would not cross-shop this car against imports. It's image is that of a macho, take-no-prisoners, all-American, meat-and-potatoes sedan that is currently kicking the tails of the more "effeminate" and less-endowed Ford 500 and anything GM has to offer.

merc1 · April 2005

I agree with your point about the 300. I see quite a few non "C" models too which tells me the car in general is pretty popular not just the Hemi model. With the Charger it looks like they're going to do it all over again, big time. The Charger SRT-8 even looks better than the 300C SRT-8. These are without a doubt the hottest American cars going right now.

I don't know what else can be said about GM at this point. Push back a convertible until Sept, like someone else said, is a less than smart move, but reportedly they're having problems with the top. The same thing has been said about the G6 convertible. Top problems. Time for GM to get Porsche (Car Top Systems) or Toyota (SC430) to do their tops if the good old boys in Detroit's supplier community can't do them.

M

merc1 · April 2005

"It's image is that of a macho, take-no-prisoners, all-American, meat-and-potatoes sedan that is currently kicking the tails of the more "effeminate" and less-endowed Ford 500 and anything GM has to offer."

Plus GM just killed the new Zeta RWD platform that would have given them something to combat the new Mopars with. Talk about a kick in the gut. They did this to concetrate on the next generation large trucks/SUV. I can understand this decision to a point, those trucks are such big money makers, but how much longer do these vehicles have when gas prices are seemingly never going back down?

M

lexusguy · April 2005

Well, the 300M was in Chrysler's Concorde, LHS "cab forward" days of space ship looking cars that they arent doing anymore. I wouldnt expect the new 300 to be anything like the old one. If it was, it certainly wouldnt have the kind of interest that it does now. Like you said "It's image is that of a macho, take-no-prisoners, all-American, meat-and-potatoes sedan that is currently kicking the tails of the more "effeminate" and less-endowed Ford 500 and anything GM has to offer."

The reason why I think is because it DOESNT just try to copy what Toyota and Honda are doing. Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have nothing like the 300. You can never be the best just by copying the top players. It appears Chrysler has figured that out, but Ford and GM still have not. It will be interesting to see what Chrysler rolls out in the future. With the exception of the 300..and I guess Pacifica, the rest of their line-up basically sucks. Will lightning strike twice? Or will they continue to have the 300 and then a fleet of rental cars?

kdshapiro · April 2005

Your are right on. People want to spend $75 a tank filling up their gas guzzlers. It's my G-d given right as an American to buy expensive automobiles and pay through the nose for gasoline.

lexusguy · April 2005

From what I understand, Zeta hasnt been killed, just redesigned to cost less. They've said wether or not Camaro will be resurrected is up in the air, but they are working on something RWD. I agree that spending all this effort on the Trailblazer and its ilk seems kind of stupid when the public is largely moving away from these cars and into unibody x-overs. The Equinox and Torrent cant hold a candle to Highlander and Pilot.

The SRX is the only real competitive x-over any of the big 3 have, and unfortunately it falls into the STS trap of "we can get Mercedes money for this, right guys?" Actually... doesnt the '06 M-class cost LESS than an SRX?

-Edit: Yes, it does. The Mercedes MSRPs lower, and a fully loaded ML500 with everything except the AMG sport package costs about $1000 less than a loaded SRX V8. Brilliant.

merc1 · April 2005

Yeah I've read that too, it was being re-engineered for cost reasons, but it still puts them out of the full size rwd game until at least 2008.

I've never compared prices for the SRX, but I knew they weren't cheap. Cadillac seems to feel like their image and repuation has been repaired to the point of not needing to undercut their competitors in price. Not!

M

bartalk3 · April 2005

What do you guys think of Hemi? I don't know a lot about engines, but isn't it basically just a PR piece, pushing a slight variation on a conventional 40-year old engine? So the combustion chamber is a slightly different shape. Big deal.

It's definitely macho, though, and for guys who are afraid they might be called girlie men by driving a Ford 500 or a sensible shoes Honda Civic DX, get a Hemi and be a real man. Grr. Remember, REAL MEN DON'T NEED BRAKES!

lexusguy · April 2005

Yeah the Hemi is no better than the Corvette OHV V8. The only thing really modern that it has is DOD. The difference is that the Corvette engine is currently only used in three cars, where as the 5.7L version of the Hemi is all over the place. I think this allows Chrysler to cut down on costs of producing the engine and make a sedan like the Charger at a price point I dont think GM can match. The only sedan platform GM has capable of dealing with that kind of power is Sigma, and its already in the CTS-V. GM will just continue with lame FWD "SS" cars, and people will continue to not care about them.

pat · April 2005

Our topic is Luxury Performance Sedans ... we need to try to keep to the subject.

bdkinnh · April 2005

Can anyone think of a reason why there are so few LPS with a folding rear seat? Is there some sort of technical reason? Seems to me that it is little effort/big gain to add it to the car.

The only ones I know of are the A6 (standard) and 5 series (optional). Lexus, Infiniti, Acrua - no folding seat.

Not having a folding rear seat is pretty much a deal breaker for me. I just drove the A6 and was under-impressed, and the reliability (coupled with the expense) of the 5 series makes me a bit concerned.

I don't want an SUV (have driven a 96 Bronco for the past 10 years - want something different now), and I'd rather poke myself in the eye with a hot stick than get an Accord.

lexusguy · April 2005

Folding rear seats are bad for body rigidity, thats why a lot of sedans dont have them.

karmikan · April 2005

You can never be the best just by copying the top players.

Mmmm. Seems to me that Honda made a good living copying BMW styling cues and Lexus cloned Mercedes.

lexusguy · April 2005

Not that I necessarily agree with the Honda\BMW resemblance, but I wasnt talking about styling. Detroit copied Japan's entire formula for building cars.. well except for that whole quality thing.

kyfdx · May 2005

In the late '70s, early '80s, the Accord copied the 3-series look almost religiously.... Fortunately, for Accord buyers, they didn't copy the reliability or repair/maintenance costs..

lpc05 · May 2005

Which is faster..has more power..my friend and i are arguing about this. I have a Lexus LS400 and he has a Buick Regal with a supercharger. I think his has more power at first, then mine will pull away. We can't really race them though, we live in the city. I thought i would ask people who probably know what they're talking about, because we don't.

commofficer · May 2005

Getting chided here by HOST for getting off topic so back to LPS subjects.

Did anyone own an older BMW 535i 5-speed? Say 89-95. I would like to buy one for a driver, back and forth to work kind of a car. Any reason I should stay clear of it? They seem cheap enough that I wouldn't have to worry about door dings or any of the small stuff.

Thanks
Phil

bdkinnh · May 2005

Thanks for the reply!

How does it compromise the body rigidity, exactly? It seems to me that, as long as the seat is in the vertical position, it would be the same. If the seat has the ability to move, does that affect rigidity since the sides of the car are not affixed to the sides of the rear seat?

xkss · May 2005

commonfficer,

The 89-95 BMW 5 series is a great sedan. The 89-93 535i has a great 3.4 liter 208 hp I-6.

commofficer · May 2005

The folding seat can compromise rigidity because the X brace that is usually located behind the rear seat is removed. If you ever get the chance to remove the cover in the trunk area which covers up the back of the back seat then you will typically see an X made of flat steel that reduces flex in the body.
They can engineer around this and put folding seats in but then they give up some of the luxury feel of the seat back.

It's all based on cost benefit too. Not enough people are asking for it so it's not being engineered in. Too bad because it's a nice thing to have.

Capt. Phil

pearl · May 2005

The supercharged 3.8L Buick will blow the LS400 away, in a drag or at top end - ASSUMING that both are in good condition and that you are using only premium fuel. This engine has been rated at 240 and 260 HP, but probably produces at least another 40 if not more. All of that said, who cares? The Subaru WX will put all of those marques 'on the trailer' for much less money, but it is a loud, obnoxious type of car. If you are buying a LS, drag racing and top end are not your concerns and you will kick butt on almost any other make re quietness, smoothness, etc. If you are older than 30 you will understand this, if not, go for whatever is loudest and goes fastest in a straight line for the least money. The cops love you guys.

kyfdx · May 2005

They had a lot of problems the first two years.. '89-'90.. But, that is really immaterial, as any problems would have been fixed by now... Avoid the later 530i, as that is a V-8 model that had lots of engine problems.

Expect really low gas mileage (10-12 mpg)... and expensive prices for parts.. fairly maintenance intensive, as well...

Great cars to drive, though... and I think they are great looking..

regards,
kyfdx

cmybimmergo · May 2005

Did you mean to say 540? My 530 is a six; I thought the 540s were the V-8s.

kyfdx · May 2005

Nope... '94-'95 530i are V-8..

bdkinnh · May 2005

That makes perfect sense. Thanks Capt. Phil!

commofficer · May 2005

Thanks for all the input. My wife says my car needs to be replaced and I thought this would be the perfect "classic" LPS. I didn't know that the mileage was that bad though.

I will stay clear of the V8, thanks. I like the old straight 6. It seems like a relatively simple engine.

Capt. Phil

cmybimmergo · May 2005

Guess I learned something today.

lexusguy · May 2005

"Which is faster..has more power..my friend and i are arguing about this. I have a Lexus LS400 and he has a Buick Regal with a supercharger. I think his has more power at first, then mine will pull away. We can't really race them though, we live in the city. I thought i would ask people who probably know what they're talking about, because we don't."

I was curious about this, so I did the research. As pearl said the Buick will win, at least in a 0-60 test, but not by all that much. You have the advantage in engine power, 290 hp @ 6000 rpm and 300 ft-lbs @ 4000 rpm, vs. 240 hp @ 5200 rpm and 280 ft-lbs @ 3600 rpm for the Buick. Unfortunately, that difference is offset by 328lbs. of weight in the Lexus.

He'll get to 60 about a half tick before you will (6.6 vs. 7.1). On the other hand, he drives a Buick regal thats currently worth about pocket change, and you drive an LS400, so I'd feel pretty good about that

If you're that concerned about beating him, trade for a GS400, and you will.

maxhonda99 · May 2005

Lexusguy,

How do you know which LS400 he has??? He could have a 1990-1994 or a 1995 to 1997 model. In which case the Regal supercharged would dust it in every which way possible.

lexusguy · May 2005

True, I did assume it was a '98+. Could you help us with this question lpc05? What year is your LS?

drtravel · May 2005

Curious to see how the Luxury Sports Sedans did last month.

Thank you

jrock65 · May 2005

April 2005 Sales

5 = 4,571
E = 3,731
STS = 3,541
GS = 3,198
M = 2,288
RL = 1,304

March 2005 Sales

5 = 3,949
E = 3,608
GS = 3,209
STS = 2,954
M = 2,253
A6 = 1,681
RL = 1,376

cheerioboy26 · May 2005

edit: jrock posted as I was typing

markcincinnati · May 2005

I presume Audi has not released figures yet?

I also presume STS incentives are doing the trick?

bartalk3 · May 2005

Mark,

Are there incentives on the STS? All I've seen is 5.9% financing.

bartalk3 · May 2005

If someone tried to predict real world sales from comments on this board, they would fail miserably. Big surprises, considering consensus opinion here:

5, E, and STS are selling surprisingly well. Why is 5 selling so well??

(I also think Lincoln LS sales are surprisingly high--jrock, do you have this?).

More surprises: STS and GS selling better than M.

No surprise: RL coming in last. Acura, however, must be shocked, shocked, especially after C&D included it in the 10 Best Cars in the World shortly after its introduction (but before the M and GS debuted).

docnukem · May 2005

Is anyone really that surprised? If you ask around at most places of work, I would bet that only a small minority subscribe to any auto mag. I would bet that even fewer would know about web sites like Edmunds or the car connec...something.com.

The average buyer has heard about Mercedes and Cadillacs all their life. During the 80's, BMW established such an image of being upwardly mobile that they are just as easily recognizable. I would bet that most people who buy a Jag like the look and the name, but don't care too much about performance (unless they shop for the R versions)--my wife is one; she loves the look of the S and I would have felt guilty not getting one if the rear seat had had more room.

With Lexus being (relatively) much newer and Infiniti being just as new but out of the spotlight in recent years (until the G35, then the FX, and now the M). These are just below many people's radar.

markcincinnati · May 2005

Here in River City the newspapers are replete with $7,000 OFF of the new STS.

Maybe that is a local incentive.

drtravel · May 2005

When I was in the Mercedes waiting room (fixing yet another problem with the car) I would chat with other customers (who had the same quality issues) and many wouldn't even consider looking at a Japanese car. Probably the same with BMW. Fact is that a BMW or MB owner will likely replace their car with another BMW or MB. Image is everything here.

The M will do fine over time - it will probably increase sales just like the G which started out slowly but has increased in sales every year since. In order for Infiniti to compete with Lexus they need a winning Q45. The LS has been such a fine (and good selling) automobile - it carries the entire Lexus fleet. So even though many believe the G is superior to the ES and the M is superior to the GS - no one believes the Q is superior to the LS. Infiniti needs to win the flagship car competition and enjoy the spillover effect on their other models. Plus they need a catchy slogan. The "relentless pursuit of perfection" or the "ultimate driving machine" are ingrained in many minds here.

The GS has a history of starting out strong and then fading away. There was such a pent up demand for the car (it was due last year) that sales will be strong for awhile. There was NO demand for the M so I'm pretty sure Infiniti is happy with their sales so far. Will be interesting to see how these sales figures change over the next year or two.

xkss · May 2005

Incentives are not advertised on Cadillac's website for the STS.

cstiles · May 2005

Although obviously Honda would prefer to see RL sales higher, I'm not sure if they are shocked with their results so far. Compared to the previous model, RL sales are actually up nearly 200%. The fact that the previous RL was such a dog, and basically appealed to a very different customer base (retired, almost dead, or non-enthusiast), it will take a couple of years to regain their position alongside the elite.

I think it's also more relevant to compare RL sales to the 6-cylinder versions of the M, GS, STS, and 5. That would still likely put the RL in last place (since something like 75% of luxury cars are sold with a 6-cylinder), but this car really doesn't compete with 8 cylinder models.

Regardless, RL sales will likely end the model year somewhere between 15,000 and 16,000 sales, which I believe will be below their stated target of 20,000.

lexusguy · May 2005

Oh I'm sure Infiniti is quite pleased. The new M sells more a month than the old M was doing in a year. If they can work the same magic with the FM platform into a new Q, and get the styling right, it will be like the spiritual successor to the original Q45, before Nissan started back pedaling and trying to compete with the LS400.

While a majority of MB and BMW customers would probably thumb their noses at Japan, you can only punish your customers so much before they start leaving. I've known more than a few people who were stranded in Benz and BMW and traded them for reliable Acura and Lexus.

Keep in mind that the G and ES are not really competitiors. The G competes with the IS300. Infiniti tried mostly in vain to compete with the ES with the '96 I30. Unfortunately they never realized that the ES is not a Camry with a fancy coat of paint, and thats always what the I was, which is what killed it. It most likely would've died anyway. The I30 was a product made during Infiniti's "lost years" where the company literally had no focus and couldnt decide what kind of cars to make, so they just put out barely modified Maximas and Pathfinders.

Lexus is certainly well aware of the GS's tradition of being a flash in the pan. Thats why this time they are planning continual upgrades during several model years rather than leaving it alone for 8 years like last time.

cstiles · May 2005

Of the Asian imports, Infiniti is clearly the most pleasant surprise so far. Sales of the M are up big time over anything they previously sold in that segment, and combined with the ongoing success of the G, Nissan is definitely on a roll. Shows what you can do when you deliver the right goods, performance, and styling at a competitive price point.

The M appears to be hitting the right niches, and most importantly, crossing over different segments. They are obviously appealing to younger customers who rate power and performance near the top, while also conquering older, more conservative customers with the non-sport versions of the M35 and M45. And delivering an AWD model that gives up little in terms of performance is allowing them to cover all the bases.

The current issue of Motor Trend shows a rendering of the upcoming Infiniti CX35, which will go head-to-head with the RDX, Cadillac BRX, and Benz MLK in MY2008. Infiniti and Nissan are clearly on a roll.

lexusguy · May 2005

It looks like the luxury "cute-ute" market is exploding, then huh?

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