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Luxury Performance Sedans

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  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Acura Division sales rose 11.9% to a new April record of 19,102. April was the 2nd best month in Acura's 19-year history, and the 18th consecutive record-setting month of sales for the division as a whole.

    Acura year-to-date sales of 67,516 have risen 8.9% versus a year ago. Acura passenger car sales reached a new April record of 14,029 vehicles, up 15.8% for the month, and up 13.6% for the year.

    TSX marked its fifth consecutive record month with sales of 3,329 units, up 35.4% for the month and up 34.7% for year to date. TL sales reached 7,206, up 3.4%.

    April sales of the RL rose 153.2% (versus April 04) to 1,304 vehicles, while year-to-date sales of 5,463 are up 183.9%.

    MDX sales lifted Acura light truck sales to a new April record of 5,073 units, a rise of 2.4% versus year-ago results.

    Nonetheless, RL sales will likely fall short of the 20,000 target, even with sales likely picking up during the warmer summer months. It will be interesting to see if Acura rolls out an incentivized lease offer. You almost figure they have to.

    As an aside, American Honda sales (without Acura) are also up 13.9% over year-ago, and up 3.2% year-to-date.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I'm not so sure it will "explode," but clearly that is where the carmakers are putting many of their eggs. You almost have to wonder if the segment will end up getting too saturated, too soon.

    Many of these luxury "cute utes" and crossovers are mechanically related to more plebian versions (ex: RDX vs. CRV, RX vs. Highlander....), so you wonder if all of these marquees can sustain sales of luxury versions. But the R&D costs are minimal, so the downsides are probably not that great.

    The Infiniti CX35 is not supposed to bow until MY2008. That sounds like it will be 2 years behind the RDX?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I too am amazed at how well the 5-Series is doing. Those newly engined 525i and 530i models must be really doing their thing. The E-Class and 5-Series has swapped positions! Virtually unheard of.

    The RL has been caught out by its fellow Japanese competition and its 300hp V6 and awd isn't going to help it much.

    M
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    Now back to our regularly scheduled program......

    "So between the S, the 7, the LS and the A8, where do the gang's best feelings reside? "

    Answer: A8 but shaken (leased), not stirred (bought).
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    None of this is really THAT surprising to me.

    5: The big seller is the 525i, accounting for 42% of 5 series sales. The new 3.0 215 hp engine is sufficient for most people. A well equipped 525i comes well under $50k, and with BMW's low lease rates, it's easy to see why this is popular. With the AWD versions just now being sold, I wouldn't be that surprised to see sales even increase.

    E: I suspect that the CLS and the GS is taking a bite out of its sales.

    STS: There are still quite a few people who want a big, roomy sedan in this segment that says "American luxury", and only the STS offers that. This is still the US, and still a lot of loyal Cadillac buyers out there.

    GS: For people who want luxury over sport, along with some prestige and reliability, this is the only choice. Plus the unparalleled dealer network.

    M: Doing pretty well in uncharted territory for Infiniti. The Infiniti name is its biggest drawback in this status conscious segment. Plus, it may be too sporty for a lot of the 40 and 50 year olds, who are the target buyers in this segment.

    RL: A very nice car, and at $45,000 street price, a good value. Its rather pedestrian look may turn off buyers who are looking for something that says "luxury". Just having one loaded V6 AWD variant is its biggest drawback in terms of sales.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I meant more in terms of compact luxury utes being the next big thing. The '98 RX300 started the midsize luxury x-over craze (I dont count the ML320 because even though it was out earlier, it wasn't unibody, and hence not an x-over), and this segment is still going strong, even with 9 or 10 players competing. Compact luxury utes though are relatively new. There's the X3, and nobody else really has anything yet. The B-class has been put on hiatus because of Mercedes money woes, but the three Japanese players at least will definitely respond.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Actually the B-Class isn't on hold because of money problem at Mercedes. It was put on hold for sale in the U.S. because of the Euro/Dollar situation. In other words they would have had to price it so high to make money that it wouldn't be competive. The B-Class itself isn't on any type of hold and will go on sale in Europe this summer. The Euro situation is the reason why the Audi A3 can run as much as 35K, pretty pricey for a hatch imo.

    Mercedes' actual entry in the compact luxury ute segment has been announced for prodution by 2008. The B-Class is like a crossover/hatch thing anyway.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That is a very good perspective on sales.

    M
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    For the 2nd month in a row, GS sales increased by a lot, but the other Lexus sedans all had double digit increases. Lexus sedan sales barely budged, so many GS conquests were from within Lexus. You know how loyal Lexus customers are!

    Both M and G had solid increases, so their conquests had to come from outside.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    April 2005 Sales (including Audi and noting increase or decrease from prior month)

    5 = 4,571 (increase)
    E = 3,731 (increase)
    STS = 3,541 (decrease)
    GS = 3,198 (decrease)
    M = 2,288 (increase)
    A6 = 1,635 (decrease)
    RL = 1,304 (decrease)

    March 2005 Sales

    5 = 3,949
    E = 3,608
    GS = 3,209
    STS = 2,954
    M = 2,253
    A6 = 1,681
    RL = 1,376
  • cohenfivecohenfive Member Posts: 85
    "Plus, it may be too sporty for a lot of the 40 and 50 year olds, who are the target buyers in this segment. "

    hey, i resemble that remark!!!! seriously i'm one of the guys in that age range who likes the feel and compromises that a real sports sedan brings. i drive an m5 currently but my wife and i went to see the new m's after they came out and was very impressed on all fronts. if i were in the market for a new car for myself the m45 sport would be at the top of my list. i've owned a bmw 5 series since 97 but just can't see the price premium any more...not with all the useful technology now being deployed by the japanese manufacturers...that being said, there's nothing to compare to the m5, but for me the new one will just be priced out of my range.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Thanks for the new info on the A6. Where did you find it?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    It was published by Audi of America. I just copied it and inserted it.

    I should add that Audi's overall YTD sales are down one half of one percent.

    The A6 sales are up, big time (year over year).

    Apr '04 - '05..........+38.7% (1,179 / 1,635 units)

    YTD '04 / YTD '05..+44.8% (3,998 / 5,789 units)

    I don't think I can post the URL, use dogpile or google. ;)
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Which website?

    BTW, I saw a polished black 2005 A6 sedan today pass by today. Gorgeous.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Do you know what the breakdown is for GS 300 vs. GS 430 and M35 vs. M45? Just wondering what percent of buyers are opting for the larger engine.

    Are these sales figures available on some web site or do you have to subscribe to some service?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My Audi dealer has a fully tricked out A6 (BLACK) on their showroom floor -- front and rear spoiler, ground effects, tinted windows, special wheels, tail pipe extentions and fuzzy dice (oops, scratch the dice).

    I run hot and cold on it -- it looks striking at first, then it looks just a teeny weeny bit like a Pontiac Grand Am circa 1997 (plastic plastic everywhere and not a drop to drink?)
  • cheerioboy26cheerioboy26 Member Posts: 412
    Infiniti doesn't report sales breakouts within the model for the M and FX. Lexus does, however:

    GS300 2,657
    GS430 541
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Wow! It seems that the 5 series is one of the 2 big winners here, up almost 16%. Apparently CR couldn't talk the 5 series down.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Maybe CR isn't as influential in some respects as you believe it is.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I'm guessing that is mostly outgoing '05 models... No cash incentives, but great lease numbers on those last month.... I'm sure they were blowing them out..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Guess not. Who woulda thunk it!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I didn't mean anything by it BTW. :blush:

    But honestly, I'm a long time CR reader and when I buy a new car I buy what feels right. Not what CR, C&D, Motor Trend liked or disliked.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    If CR dislikes it, I almost always know that I will like it.

    But I always fully vet my Whirlpool appliances there first!

    Maybe I'll start paying attention to frequency of repair reports now that I've gone from German to Japanese. :confuse:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    You're probably right about the BMW's being the '05 models. The AWD versions are (or weren't -- out yet).

    The Lexus breakdown was interesting, too, I wonder how many were AWD.

    I keep reading about virtually any of the brands that are now offering AWD, that the market for AWD sedans -- 300C, Ford Five Hundred, M35(X) and BMW X's, etc -- is greater than "expected."

    My BMW dealer claims the 5x's (not a typo) are expected to sharply increase the popularity of the 5's (more than they are now? I wonder).

    My wife's BMW sales rep said she has "many" 5X's already on order "sight unseen" by their perspective owners.

    "This is just the vehicle we've been waiting for."

    Time will tell, eh?

    Didn't seem to help Acura as much as I would've expected, tho -- but as a previous poster said, the RL had a long way to go to "come back" -- so, relatively speaking, it's all good (for Acura).
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    AWD seems to be the way things are going... It is unreal how many people won't buy a BMW because it is RWD...

    I think that sales rep is correct.... AWD is going to make BMW sales take off.. and, just in time, too... with the GS and M models coming out with it...

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  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I just wish I can understand from those secret formula circles how CR comes up with their reliability ratings. I looked at the 2004 trouble spot circles for the 5 series and they were all mostly red except for some red half circles and one white circle and consumer satisfaction was indicated by CR as better than average for 2004. For the uninitiated, a red circle indicates very reliable, half a red circle is reliable and a white circle is average reliability. These results to me say the car should be recommended, but CR claims it is "unreliable" and cannot recommend the 2005 5 series.
    I e-mailed CR requesting an explanation to support the unreliable label with empirical data and they wrote me that compared to an "average" 2004 hypothetical model, the 2004 5 series comes out worse than the model, hence it cannot be recommended.
    :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    CR checks all individual reliability data from owners against an average for all cars rated that year. Some areas, like transmission, are weighted more heavily than others. Even if a car does "pretty well", if most other cars that year did better, it wont get the "recommended" tag.

    Here's CR's words on it: "Sometimes a vehicle (especially a 2004 model) will have seemingly high Ratings, such as full red or half-red, in the 14 trouble spots, but gets a below-average (X) reliability verdict. That’s because at least some of the trouble-spot Ratings didn’t compare well with the average ratings for that model year, as shown in the average vehicle chart. For instance, the 2004 Saab 9-3 was rated full-red in nine categories half-red in four categories, and white in one category. By comparing that with the Ratings for the average 2004 model, you can see that the 9-3's Ratings are worse than the average in five areas, one of which--transmission--is weighted more heavily. The result is a below-average (X) reliability verdict."

    According to CR's average 2004 vehicle chart, vehicles must get full red (meaning less than 2.0% of owners reported problems in this area) in every catergory and half red in the body integrity catergory (2 - 5% owners reported problems) in order to make the "average" reliability cut. The 2004 5 series got a white circle in "Power equipment" meaning 5-9% of owners reported problems in that area, which killed any chance it would've had for a recommended tag.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    One of the folks I work with has a friend who has a BMW -- it is a 1999 or 2000 and it looks (and for all practical purposes IS) brand new. He calls it his summer car.

    Claims the only thing more dangerous on the (wet, slick, whatever) highway than a BMW is being on foot on the highway.

    Several of my friends abandoned their BMW's for FWD, SUV or "pickuptruck" cars because they "were useless" in the moderate winters that we have here in SW Ohio.

    The BMW sales rep seemed genuinely pleased to have the X3, X5, 3x and now 5x to sell -- she says the 5x (with its expected $2K upcharge for AWD, plus its new 255HP 3.0L engine) will "hurt" Audi's sales (presumably of the new A6 and of the new A4 with both new 3 and 5 coming to market with AWD, 2 engine choices and stick shift availability).

    I imagine she is right.

    She pokes "a bit" at me for getting the M35X (but truth be told my BMW sales rep drives a G35X herself -- until, as she says, the lease runs out later this year -- she's been with BMW for about 1+ years).
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    For the record, I would be one of the people who wouldn't buy a BMW if it were only avail in RWD, ditto my wife, ditto my in-laws, ditto, oh well, you get the picture.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    The only URLs you can't post are those to other automotive message boards or to dealerships. If you have source of sales figures that is not a post on another message board repeating something or a place that actually sells cars, feel free to post it.

    OTOH, if your source is something like that, I'd be surprised that you took it at face value. If the figures are for real, they exist on another source somewhere.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Source: Audi of America, posted "all over" the web and so cited.

    Although usually updated here AFTER other sites, this site is, as they say, "the horse's mouth."

    http://www.audiusa.com/about_pressreleases

    And of course it can be found here:

    http://media.audiusa.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=9578

    Several other automotive web pages carry this data and also cite these same URL's.
  • liyliy Member Posts: 47
    Here is the source for those Audi sales numbers:

    Audi Sales Numbers

    LIY
  • mikestevensmikestevens Member Posts: 17
    These are the three I'm down to and I am having a heckuva time making up my mind. I just got back from test driving the M45 Sport and I was very impressed. It's got neck snapping speed, a lot more grunt and much more responsive sterring than my current ride (GS430). I was just really hoping for AWD. I put on some long commutes in the dead of winter, and it's not just the snow that gets you, but the ice patches as well. As to the M35x, it's got fully adequate acceleration--what I did not like was the engine noise- the V6 was a little more intrusive than I'd like. Finally, though I prefer the looks of the A6 it lacks some of the cool technology of the M series (rear-view camera, lane departure warning, front load CD stack). Perhaps the deciding factor should be reliability. I really wonder how much more time I'd be spending at the Audi dealership vs Infiniti....
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Money being no object, I'd take the A6 4.2 if it had the sport package or S-Line in a heartbeat.

    It gets me what I would want most -- V8, AWD, Sport, nice looks.

    My choices were more, pedestrian, if a $50K+ car can ever be thought to be thus -- the A6 3.2 vs the M35X -- plus money was an object. I went with the Infiniti M35X -- if your pocketbook permits the purchase of an A6 4.2 -- don't even worry about the reliability. My recent Audis have been easy to live with.
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    >>Several of my friends abandoned their BMW's for FWD, SUV or "pickuptruck" cars because they "were useless" in the moderate winters that we have here in SW Ohio.

    A coworker had a 5 series that he got rid of after the first winter here in DC. He only had one way out of his development and it was up a slight hill. If we got even 1/2" of snow, he couldn't drive it. He says he'll never buy another RWD car until he retires to Phoenix.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Sheez, RWD is not THAT bad. I wont take my LS out in a snow storm, but with a set of Blizzaks and VSC, it does fine in mild to moderately snowy conditions. If you're trying to drive with the 18 or 19" Z rated rubber bands that many RWD cars come with, then yeah, RWD is worthless.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    My 3 series did fine with the last couple of brutal winters here in the metropolitan area. The car came with low profile all seasons that did fine. Having said that though, I wish I had AWD.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    With winter tires, my RWD will out-do almost any FWD...

    That said, the BMWs of the '90s (and '80s and '70s) gave them their well-deserved reputation.. My first BMW driving experience was my girlfriend's '79 320i.. A very nice car, but you might as well leave it in the garage if it snowed...

    The current RWD BMWs with traction control and winter tires make for good transportation, even in snowy, hilly areas.... The biggest problem is with ground clearance in heavy snow..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Most folks for whatever reason anymore do not even consider seasonal tires. If the car comes with 255 x 40 x 17" tires, summer only -- well, then they use these year round.

    Winter tires plus traction control would do fine here in Cincinnati, most of the time.

    AWD with All Seasons will do well virtually all of the time.

    I'm often wrong (but never uncertain), but I do believe AWD will in part prosper for the same reason auto trans is the chosen transmission.

    Arguing the relative merits of RWD, FWD and AWD can be done and there certainly are circumstances where 2 driven wheels are mostly fine.

    However, 4 driven wheels is, I think, destined to become (if it has not already) one of the fastest growth "engines" for cars of all classes.

    There is a forum "AWD the next big thing" or something like that -- Dr. Piech some 25 years ago said AWD for safety, traction and performance. It seems there is sufficient evidence (when BMW and Mercedes BOTH are growing the AWD offering) that this was an accurate prediction.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    You are right about the tires... Less than 1% of people get winter tires.. Most people would pay $2K extra for AWD, add 200 lbs. of extra weight, get worse fuel mileage and impair the handling of their vehicle, just to save two trips to the tire store per year and to keep those four extra tires out of their basement/garage.. ;)

    Just tweaking you a little... My other car is AWD, as were the three before this one.... But, there is a grain of truth there...

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I definitely wouldn't mind if Lexus offered an AWD version of the LS. In fact, I would probably buy it over a RWD version. Its just not enough of a benefit for me to get an A8 over an LS430 though, especially since I have my wife's AWD RX300 if I need it. Its unfortunate that most people dont consider winter tires. I've tried the Artic Alpins and Blizzaks. The Michelins arent bad, but the Bridgestones, at least in my experience and with my car, do an outstanding job.

    I believe that there will continue to be a market for "pure" RWD cars for quite some time, but I think AWD will replace FWD on a large scale. Cars like the Nissan Maxima, Acura TL, and the increasingly large number of other models putting 260hp or more to the front wheels NEED AWD.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Is there really any German car you'd buy?

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yes. Just not to replace my LS430. I've made comments about this before, I'm just not willing to sacrifice the big Lexus' awesome comfort, ease of use, and reliability for a few smiles in the curves. As a get-to-work car and highway cruiser, the LS is unbeatable.

    I would definitely (and have in the past) considered a German weekend car though, but until recently, there wasnt much to look at from them. I wasnt interested in the Z3, SLK320, or TT. I thought the CLK430 was too plain, and while the CLK500 is definitely better, its styling still pales in comparison to the XKR, and I'm not a fan of COMAND. I'd definitely trade for an SL500 in a minute, but obviously there's a tremendous difference in depreciation between the Jag and Mercedes, which makes late model used XKs actually affordable.
  • nmdrivernmdriver Member Posts: 23
    I drive 40,000 miles a year. 20,000 of this is long distance interstate driving. We have always had an upscale car for this driving. (BMW 3.0S, 5 series, Lexus LS, Audi A8, Audi Allroad). Last fall we sold the Allroad. I knew that a new crop of 5 series competitors would be coming out in the spring, and we had just bought two 2005 turbocharged Subarus: A manual Legacy GT Limited, and an auto Outback XT Limited. We figured that we would use the Subarus as travel cars until the new cars came out. (We had swapped out the terrible standard tires on both Subies for quieter and better gripping tires.)
    It turned out that we liked the Outback better than the Audi! The Audi had a little less wind noise and some fancier trim. In every other respect: ride, handling, comfort, steering, build quality, fuel economy, etc. the Outback is as good or better than the Audi -- even though the Audi had cost 50% more!
    Now, I am shopping the new crop of $40K-plus cars. I am only looking at 6 cyl AWD.
    I started out wanting an Acura RL. It looks like a larger Honda, but it has the only Sat Nav I would actually pay money for, cushy seats, cushy ride, great stereo etc. It still drives more like a front wheel drive car, but I could live with this. However: the transmission lags on downshifts, followed by a surge forward when it finally shifts. Not cool. And, although the car is generally quiet, it turned out to be incredibly noisy when it encountered sharp road noises: coarse surfaces and when going over expansion joints etc.
    The GS 300 is quieter and smoother -- but not as quiet as I expected. (Probably the run-flat tires on the AWD model). It also removes most of the feeling from driving. I will have to drive it again to see if it grows on me.
    The M35x was the surprise. It is nearly as quiet as the Lexus, but it has an athletic balance and eagerness which neither of the others (or the Audi A6) have. I hate the Nav system and would certainly buy the car without it.
    But, here is the rub: a base M35X is 60% more expensive than the comparably-equipped Outback Limited. It has less wind noise, somewhat more room in the rear seat, has rosewood trim and is available with options like a high end stereo, sat nav. and sat radio not available on Subarus. But, it is not built a bit better, it does not ride as well, the simpler Subaru has better ergonomics and will probably be more reliable. Of course, the lower M35 handles better -- but the difference is less than I expected.
    My Subaru GT Limited is far more of a sports car than the M35. The closest M would be the M45 Sport. But this is not available in AWD, does not ride as well as the Subaru, is no quieter than the Subaru, and is simply not as much fun to drive. Oh, it also costs more than $20,000 more.
    It used to be that you would move from a mid-range car to an upscale car and think: "Wow! This really is a different class of car!" But the mid-range cars have gotten so good that the differences in how the car rides and drives are now are much more subtle. I may still buy the M -- or the GS -- or the RL. But I am really having to think about it.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If you really like the Subies, stick with them. Subaru JD power IQ really surged this year, they actually beat out Lexus! I assume AWD is a must. What do you think of the G35x or A4 3.0?
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I think that you're right about AWD. Obviously, my 545 is RWD, and it was flawless in the snow this winter with winter tires. In fact, I was amazed at how well it did given that I traded in an '03 330xi for it. I actually think the 5 did better than the AWD 3, and we got more snow in Chicago this winter than the one before (still not really THAT much snow though). I'm sure that the 330xi with snow tires rather than all-season tires would have been unstoppable though. Having said all of that though, if the 545 had been offered with AWD I would have gotten it instead of the RWD version. I don't think that BMW at this point has any plans for an AWD 545 though which is unfortunate. Who knows, if the 530xi sells really well (I think it will because when the 330xi came out my salesperson at the time in NY told me that interest in the RWD 330i dropped to an almost insignificant level) maybe they will have AWD as an option on all of their cars. Talk about bullheaded Germans though! Both of their primary competitors (MB and Audi) offer AWD on all of their models, but BMW has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the world of AWD. I will say though that the fact that there is so much debate on the merits of AWD vs. RWD would seem to indicate that the jury is still out at least to some degree about which is better. Maybe people like AWD more because they at least feel like it's safer than a RWD car with winter tires whether or not it really is. I'm a prefect example of this. I have a RWD car with winter tires, have no problem with switching them twice a year or storing them, but I'd still choose AWD over RWD.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    I will say... What is really nice about the latest crop of AWD, is the cars default operation is basically RWD, with the fronts only kicking in when needed.. I think this gives better handling and better road feel... I know this is the way the Infiniti and the new 5-series work... I think the Lexus is the same way... Not the case with the Acura, though....

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  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    If you consider that this is the begining of a new life for both Acura RL & Infinity M, then Acura definitely missed the boat here.

    I might be a little honda partial, even though I don't own one, but when I saw the RL & M on the floor of the NY auto show last year, I knew already that RL was going to have a miss even though to my eyes the RL & the M look remarkably similar except for the ugly details, which I think are ugly on both cars....

    As a current BMW owner, I'm amazed how well BMW is doing on the 5, for better or worse... the name sells, even though I can personally vouch that "ownership experience is closer and closer to hell".

    And yet, everytime I sit behind the wheel of the bmw, I have this instant smile on my face, that as yet, no other car/make puts on my face...

    my confused 2 cents...
    ksso
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    At the Cincinnati auto show, the RL, M and GS were all sitting within 50 feet of each other.. Any one of the three could have been mistaken for the other, depending on the angle... The only advantage I can see for any, is that the Lexus and Infiniti can be had with RWD and a V-8, if you want to go that way.. If you are looking for AWD and a V-6, you could flip a coin (a three-sided coin?).

    My BMW experience (3-series) has been good, so far .... 29K miles... It puts a smile on my face, when my wife lets me drive it...

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  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    "A coworker had a 5 series that he got rid of after the first winter here in DC. He only had one way out of his development and it was up a slight hill. If we got even 1/2" of snow, he couldn't drive it. He says he'll never buy another RWD car until he retires to Phoenix. "

    As somebody who moved from Phoenix to the northeast in the last year odd, i'll say, all it takes to drive a rear wheel drive in the snow is a good set of snow tires.

    if you can spend 50K on a car, i think you can afford to spend a thousand bux on a good set of winter tires... no?

    ksso
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