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Comments
The biggest reason for AWD from a FWD perspective is, as you have identified, our current capability to add HP and Torque to engines that can be put in relatively inexpensive cars.
The shift from FWD to RWD is often accompanied with an "option" to be AWD, too (Chrysler 300C, Cadillac STS, for example).
Pure two wheel drive (front or rear) is probably not destined to be replaced entirely by AWD, but the direction does appear to be AWD being the growth part of the market (and if you add SUV's to the "car" mix, the AWD or 4WD equipped vehicles are growing faster than some of the car manufacturers had predicted).
Now with asymmetrical AWD being adopted by Audi -- we have pretty much "validated" the thought that rear-biased AWD will pretty much keep grabbing market share.
I keep hearing the Subaru ads on the radio -- they now are touting Subaru symmetrical AWD -- I know the public, or a lot of the public, is completely clueless.
"Gee Fred, this company says they've got symmetrical AWD and that one says asymmetrical AWD -- which one of these is better than the other? Beats me Mary, I always thought that asymmetrical means not equal, so I guess that would mean symmetrical is better. Fred, you're so smart. . . ."
i've actually gotten out of a snow pile with the bmw rwd with snow tires (it's a 3 convertible, so there's no option to get a awd there yet) and failed to get my A6 quattro with all seasons out... comparing apples to apples, because both of them were caught in the same snow pile up in my drive way this year.
ksso
its just like that with winter tires. summer, you got temperatures from 80s to 100s and you expect the same tires to work with you with a different surface cor and different temperature gradient... i dont think awd has as yet eliminated (reduced yes, but not eliminated) fundamental problem of lack of adhesion....
Oh how I yearn for the M45....335hp....340lb ft of torque.....5.3 seconds to 60......mmmmm, donuts ***gargling/drooling Homer Simpson-like sounds***.
C'mon Mark, expound upon the virtues and superiority of AWD and clear my conscience!
If not:
1) how much do ya think the dealer would be willing to give me on a (2 week old) trade in? "Financial bloodbath" probably wouldn't suffice to describe the loss I would incur, percentage wise.
2) how would you feel about 500 miles and XM?
Oh well... I guess I'll just have to "suffer" with the 35x's paltry 280hp. I wish it would snow (just once), as it would make me feel a tad bit better. Right now I have to wait at least 7 months to enjoy my "X" justification....barring terrential downpours that is.
My points have been directed as a discussion about the majority of folks (who probably never participate on such forums) who refuse to use seasonal tires.
I agree that seasonal tires on 2WD and AWD cars are THE BEST way to go.
My buddies at Audi told me that THE reason the AUDI USA configurator now has plus size wheels and tires WITH UHP All Season tire offerings were due to the fact that Audi (and many others) brought their cars to the US with "summer only" tires -- because they could not imagine why anyone wouldn't change to winter tires just as they change from summer clothes to winter clothes.
They didn't know about us 'mericans.
So, Audi USA got its way and persuaded Audi AG to bring cars to the US with "compromise" tires -- UHP A/S's -- coupled with quattro, they reasoned, this beat virtually all others for year round drivability.
I cannot argue for NOT changing tires.
Here in Cincinnati (very mild winters precip wise) I can use A/S tires on a quattro and if I am nuts enough to pay $250 per tire for a Pilot Sport A/S tire, I get a darn good approximation of a UHP seasonal tire (that season being summer), and still have a decent chance of "going in the white stuff" 99% of the time.
The fact that I know better is neither meant to boast nor excuse my behavior.
The fact is that most of us American drivers just keep the same set of tires on year round UNLESS we are forced by circumstances to do otherwise.
Given that this behavior is commonplace, AWD does reduce the chances of being unable to go in the snow considerably.
However, the post commenting "until you have to stop" is dead on accurate.
AWD probably will not help you stop -- it may, however, help you "avoid" an unpleasant outcome to a "stupid attack" (your's, someone else's or mother nature's).
Overall AWD is probably a more prudent choice (especially for one-tire-American drivers).
Those of you who do change your tires based on the season are the smart ones -- the rest of us ought to, but we probably won't.
I am not suggesting AWD equipped LPS cars will be invulnerable to the slick seasons. I am suggesting that given our proclivities as drivers and car owners here in the US, that AWD is a more traction friendly choice.
No wonder I don't see any M's. They're all parked at the gas station!
Sign me,
Very happy with my BMW in Florida.
(No noises and no blowouts after 3 great years and a sweet 26 mpg)
Don't get too excited though. Thunderstorm season (aka 'summer' in FL) will roll in and fill your days with obscene humidity and daily downpours. Renowned BMW reliability, I'm sure, has had you in the shop on at least a few occasioins.
Hey - IIRC you once posted that the M's driver's seat provided no place for you to place your left foot. I think about it every time I comfortably set my left foot on the sloping platform designed for just that.
Enjoy the bimmer. And the sun.
Well I've had 2 325i's since 1993 and neither has been in the shop except for regular maintenance.
I would not take a chance on the 5 series, however. I think there's a lot of bad news there.
Let me tell ya, there is no other car I would rather be driving in a torrential downpour than a BMW 3 series. It takes curves like it is glued to the road. I don't know the physics of it. I just drive 'em and admire 'em.
Funny about that left foot thing because otherwise, there was enough legroom in the M. Maybe I was leaning too far left in the seat to try and get away from the seemingly desperate, aggressive, obnoxious salesguy. What some of us have to endure for a lousy 10 minute test drive!
Yeah, renowned BMW reliability has had mine in the shop also on a few occasions.
Five times in over three years (including scheduled maintenance) to be exact.
To avoid the censor's wrath, I have tried the 545 but nothing except probably a Porsche handles as well as the 3 series. It's just the perfect marriage of size and physics.
I agree totally. Especially if you live in an area that doesn't get all that much snow, or don't have a place to store snow tires.
I can play golf all year round.
Tell me it's not hot and humid where you live in the summer.
Down here AWD is unheard of. No M35's down here have it.
I intend to keep the Subies. The question is whether I will, as in the past, also buy a more expensive car for touring. I used the Subies as examples because that is what I had on hand for back-to-back comparison drives over the same test route. I cannot be the first person to ask the question: "How much better are the $40 to $50 K cars than those a tier or two down?"
You asked what about the G35 and A4? I drove the G35x before I bought the Legacy GT. The G35 simply does not have enough cargo capacity for our long distance travel, but based on the magazine reviews it was the first thing I looked at to replace my WRX. However, the AWD version is available only with auto. (A big minus.) And, I found the drop throttle oversteer scary. I took my foot off the accelerator rounding a gentle curve at 60mph on a smooth, dry road and the rear just let go! I drove SCCA rallies in my youth, and caught it instinctively -- but the car rocked on its suspension. It was not tidy. Where is the stability control? Had my wife been driving, or if it had been a wet road, it would have been really scary. CR said that it got similar behavior from its (auto) Legacy GT. We have tried hard to replicate this on our manual car so we would know what to expect. But all I have ever gotten is a nice, easily controlled 4 wheel drift on an icy road. Yes, the GT does not have electronic stability control, but the full time AWD is amazingly effective. It never has those momentary delays and adjustments that so many of the "switch to AWD after the wheels start to slip" systems have.
A4? Performance, ride and dynamics not as good as the GT (with its tire upgrade) as a sports sedan. Too small for a touring car.
My question remains: it seems to me that the manufacturers are really closing the dynamic gap between the $30,000 cars and the $50,000 cars. They are throwing more and more electronics into the more expensive cars to justify the price difference, but I am not convinced that this makes the driving experience that much better -- or that much safer.
There's way more yuppie-scum status-seeking ladder-climbing going on than most are willing to talk about. The BMW of the '80's brought this into sharp focus, but it continues today, much to the delight of the manufacturers -- the margins are thinner on the lower-price units.
I'm always looking for comparisons that help me find what I'm looking for, and I walk the talk. I actually bought a Lincoln LS five years ago because it handled well, came with a manual transmission, and had a few luxury touches. It would have had more if the manual were available with the V8, but. . .
Anyway, I'll be interested in hearing from those who respond to your very provocative question.
Luxury wise it's not in the same class as these other cars. But a silky smooth engine and shifter, AWD, LSD, turbo, and very neutral handling characteristics makes it a compelling argument. And for those who make decisions by the book - looking at CR, JDP, IIHS and NHTSA one finds there are no blemishes to be had for the vehicle or the manufacturer.
It's not a grand tourer, but the seats are very comfortable. I now understand why some people are passionate about these cars. If you can live without some electronics and luxo items it's a fine car for some that will almost beat a Porsche Cayenne turbo to 60.
nmdriver- My wife and I are both 6' tall and we found the Subaru too narrow and cramped feeling. The last time we looked at them was 6/2003 and maybe we need to look again but have they grown in width? I had an 86 Subaru GL 4 door back when I was enlisted and it was a blast to drive on dirt roads. I wanted my wife to buy the Forrester but it was just too narrow so we ended up with the Pacifica instead. I really regret it now especially with the low resale of the Pacifica. Gas mileage isn't that good either for both vehicles.
Just my thoughts
Phil
"B9 Tribeca" is one of the dumbest names ever for an automobile. And am I the only one who thinks it has exterior styling resembling a dung beetle with an edsel nose? Were the designers at Subaru on crack when they hatched this unit?
Okay, be serious....how many of you actually change your tires 2x a year between spring and winter? Show of hands, please. I have indeed done this for about the last 15 years now, but my neighbors look at me like I am totally nuts. Of course, my last 5 cars have also been manual transmissions, so that alone qualifies me as an alien here in America where hardly anyone knows how to shift gears for themselves anymore.
Owning 2 sets of tires for your car can also be an expensive habit, since every time I trade cars, the dealers look at me like I'm crazy when I offer to trade the extra tires (and sometimes wheels!) along with the car. But I keep doing it since the driving dynamics are truly improved by swapping tires.
Is it time to argue the pro's and con's of iDrive again? Just joking.
I agree that the Forester XT is a great car. A neighbor whom I helped with car shopping was certain that she was going to buy a $40K - plus BMW X3. I convinced her to drive the XT back-to-back, she came back and told me: "They have the same room and the BMW is prettier, but the Forester is better built, quicker, much more comfortable, and more fun to drive. It gets better crash test ratings and it is $16,000 less expensive!"
When we bought our 2005 Outback XT, we had set out to buy a Forester XT. But we decided that the 2005 Legacy/Outback are in a different quality league from previous Subarus, and that the Outback could pull double duty as a long distance travel car as well.
One word of advice: change the tires. This is not a Subaru forum, but before taking delivery of any Subaru I would pre-arrange with a local tire dealer to swap out the OEM tires. No one likes the RE-92's on the Legacies and WRX's, and the Foresters come with mud tires which are noisy on dry roads and terrible in ice and snow. Unless you need the mud tires, swap them for a good set of street tires. It will transform your car.
"how many of you actually change your tires 2x a year . . . Show of hands please."
I am raising my hand.
We have AWD cars. I am completely sold on AWD as the best answer for all-weather driving (rain as well as ice and snow). Once you have experienced a good AWD system, you will never go back.
We have two sets of tires/wheels for our cars which live in Santa Fe (four season climate). Summer performance tires for warm weather, Blizzaks for cold weather. The out of season sets are stacked in the back of the garage. I swap them myself every spring and fall. It takes about 10 min. per wheel.
The car which goes back and forth to California has all season tires. (Too much trouble to swap them every time I have to travel, and I do not want to drive 12 plus hours at 85mph on winter tires.)
Our daughter who lives in Washington, DC (also a 2005 Subaru Legacy GT) keeps all season tires on her car. But she, too, used Blizzaks on her previous Subaru when she lived in Denver.
I have never gotten stuck in a Subaru or Audi with all season tires. But stopping and turning are more important than going -- and for this there is no substitute for good ice and snow tires.
I do. I have two AWD vehicles, 01 E320 4Matic and 05 Legacy GT Wagon. Both get them. E is a pain as I didn't get extra wheels. That is a mount/dismount. We just got the legacy, previous legacy wagon and legacy sedan before that used wheels/blizzacks from Tire Rack. On that I do the change over myself. 30 mins maybe?
Oh, and to "ksso" who says the roads are littered with stuck AWD sedans in the winter. That is so wrong. The roads are littered with stuck SUVs in the winter. THOSE are the guys you see down embankments, rear-ending other people, spinning out on on/off ramps, etc. AWD sedans form such a small percentage of the "population" here, I don't know how you could even claim that. SUVs on the other hand...man the place is lousy with them.
Bottom line is, though, it IS the tires as much as anything. I've driven FWD vehicles that were useless in the snow. Frankly, my E is not that great w/standard All Season rubber (admittedly, high performance).
Regards,
BigRob.
Thus the need for AWD.
I can play golf all year round.
I don't golf.
Tell me it's not hot and humid where you live in the summer.
Hot, humid, and poisonous, what with the dust/smog dome.
Down here AWD is unheard of. No M35's down here have it."
Naturally.
The worst part of my drive? My unplowed driveway. After the first day, I had a guy with a snow blower clear my driveway and despite the continuing snow issues (on secondary roads), my allroad (a 6spd manual) never had any issues. At this time, I had switched from UHP A/S tires to UHP summer tires -- and I am somewhat sheepishly telling you, "I just didn't bother" to swap to my winter wheels and tires -- the only time I had an issue, anyway, was Christmas itself, and we just lit a fire in the fireplace and stayed home.
The following days, bad as the roads still were, we ventured out and had zero problems (other than the other 2WD cars -- also on their non-winter tires -- that couldn't go at all.)
I understand the M35X comes with UHP A/S tires 245 x 45 x 18" -- this set up too, will probably not motivate me to switch tires/wheels 2x year. "I know its wrong, but I just can't help myself!"
You know, this is strange, too -- for growing up, north of Dayton, Ohio (much much more snow than Cincinnati) my dad always switched to snow tires (rear only) in his RWD Chrysler products.
On another subject -- my 45,700+ mile allroad has been both the best and most reliable Audi I have ever had. So you don't think that is a trick statement, it has also been the most reliable car I have ever had, period. I have taken it in for the required oil changes and I believe have had two "abbey-normal" instances of problems (one when I first got the car -- an issue related to On*star) and another time when the driver's bucket seat developed a very slight rocking sensation and Audi replaced the entire bucket assembly (took two days, one to diagnose and order the parts and one to install it).
The only other issues I have had with this allroad have been that either "it" or "I" eat tires (at 45,000 miles I am on my fourth set, although the current set will probably go to 55,000+ miles, meaning that each set is about good for 15,000 miles on average (I replaced one set due to tire damage rather than absolute wear.))
If you go by all the folks here on edmunds, my expectations for my Infiniti are that all I will have to do is buy gas, plates, insurance and drive it for 50,000 miles with my only visits to the dealer being for scheduled maintenance. If that happens, I'm not saying I'll be back here bad mouthing the Germans, but I will be impressed!
The Allroad tires are crap. After the second set, I went to Turanza LS-V's. MUCH better tires for this car.
When I bought the 2005 Outback XT, I pre-arranged with the local tire dealer to swap the OEM RE-92's for Turanzas. I expected to trade some grip for a much more civilized tire with much longer wear. I got the "civilized" part and the wear part. I see no difference in grip.
BTW: Much to my surprise, except for looks, When I am driving the Outback I do not miss the Allroad at all.
Just counting down the days until the M35X gets here. The way I figure, I have at least 75 days to go.
". . . 99 bottles of beer on the wall, 99 bottles of beer. . . "
LOL. You got me there. Sadly.
$200 million for last place....arrgh :sick:
Like having an SL65 AMG that for whatever reason can't outrun....well, much of anything. Torre's flaws are beginning to show. Good thing we got rid of that bum Leiber (5-1 with Philly.)
Yet the German reliability bashing -- even though it appears that it is far more subtle and civil than in prior years -- continues. Those of us with German cars -- even though we did move away from German cars -- who have had positive experiences with them sometimes are hammered by the "I'll pass you sitting at the dealer in my fill-in-the-blank Japanese LPS."
Finally, some information that may suggest that you might not have to exclude German cars from your LPS shopping list after all (unless your decisions, like mine, were based on what I keep calling the "value proposition.")
Here goes:
"According to a survey from German auto breakdown company ADAC, the most reliable cars in five out of seven categories are either Audis or Mercedes, with the former taking top bragging rights with three first places."
Cliky here, boys and girls:
link title
I would also venture that you would need to use "winter tires" on all four wheels, in the minus size as noted above to improve upon the AWD w/all seasons. Now if you live where there is heavy snow (I know the Northeast almost certainly does)and not great road management and snow clearing (can't comment on this, but I assume the NE is pretty good in this regard) -- you might need winter tires on the M35X, too.
I only know where I live (SW Ohio) and drive -- as far east as Pittsburgh and as far north as Cleveland. I took my A/S equipped allroad to Cleveland several times during the winter and never had a problem even during some pretty nasty lake effect snowfalls (but the Cleveland road management is very good, generally speaking).
I would -- but you should know I am biased -- only accept AWD. If you want the look of the sport wheel/tire equipped M35, there are coming to market now some pretty glintzy (made up word) wheels that could make the M35X have "the look" -- and with 19" UHP tires you would get pretty close to the handling of the M35 sport and have your AWD to boot.
Of course, you almost certainly would still have to change to the factory AWD wheels and tires during winter (if you have any more than moderate snow and if you have very low temps -- summer rubber doesn't like the cold, either).
Unfortunately Mark, if I recall, the survey was looking at breakdowns, instances where aid is required to move the vehicle. I'm not as familiar with Audi as I am with Mercedes and BMW but I'm sure that Audi is like the other two in that tow trucks are rarely required.
The problems that are currently haunting MB and BMW and turning customers off are more of an electrical nature. The cars run but features, some of them critical to the operation and safety of the car, e.g. - Sensotronic braking on some MB's, fail. Don't I feel comfortable knowing that my electronic nightmare relies on brake-by-wire?
Mercedes has been publicly stating how they recognize that reliability is important and a return to quality is now, pardon the Ford phrase, "Job One". Their results don't match their proclamations however. After suffering an embarrassing 25 problems per 100 new vehicles in MY2003 they've stepped up their quality control and are now averaging ONLY29 problems per vehicle in MY2004. BMW has followed suit with their MY2004 vehicles averaging more problems than their MY2003. If they keep working at it they may join Mercedes at the bottom of the pack.
Mark, as an Audi loyalist, you'll see that Audi has "walked the walk" in regards to improving initial quality. I believe they are near the top of the initial quality rankings with only 11 problems per 100 vehicles.
Reliability has never been the single most important factor when I've purchased new cars but I think you would have a slightly different opinion of the importance of this factor if you were to experience what I have with my last two Benzes and last BMW.
My BP tends to rise when I think of the pitiful quality of the SL500 I have. Since this car continues to be on the Edmunds Editors Most Wanted List I'd be happy to unload it on any Edmunds editor that wants one.
For now, I'll enjoy my M45 Sport that some feel may not be as "elegant" as the German cars. Prestige? The three-pointed star and roundel carry little prestige when they're in the shop.
The Japanese bashers can continue to throw their barbs about owning a $50k Nissan but I'll be smiling ear to ear because they actually make a car that's worth it regardless of the badge that adorns it.
Very good question. There are really two things you need to look at: traction and turning/stopping. With regard to traction, there is no comparison. On a number of occasions I have moved from a RWD or FWD car with winter tires and traction control to an Audi or Subaru with AS tires. There is no contest. AWD wins hands down! In fact, there are times when no RWD or FWD car with any sort of tires can make it up (or down) the hill near our house in Santa Fe.
The same thing is true when you hit an ice patch or standing water at speed. Full time AWD will pull you right through. RWD or FWD -- even with the best traction control -- can still get you in trouble.
The second thing is turning and stopping. Here, good winter tires make a big difference on ANY car.
In addition, the other posts are right on about tire size. A Cayenne S or a BMW X5 with their big wide tires are helpless beasts in snow. Switching to winter tires tames them, but does not cure them.
My recommendation: if I lived in the mid-Atlantic states (as I did for years), I would go for the M35x and leave the AS tires on year round. The extra traction and stability may save your life, not only in snow but in rain and other kinds of slippery conditions as well.
If I lived in New England, I would swap the AS tires for summer performance tires when I took delivery of the car and spend $1000 or so at the Tire Rack for a second set of wheels with Blizzaks for winter use. It is not as expensive as you think. If you keep your car for some time, every mile you drive on the winter tires is a mile you are not driving on the summer tires. And, when you go to sell your car, you can always sell the winter wheels and tires on ebay and recoup part of your investment. (I have done this twice.)
What I would NOT do us to put wide 19" winter tires on the M35 sport. As the guys tell you: narrower is better for winter.
While I live in a warm climate and have no experience with summer vs. winter tires, the quoted statement seems to be at odds with the laws of physics. Can someone explain or refute?
ksso
Do you by chance know when the June Road and Track hits the stores?
When R&T is available probably depends where in the country you live. I'm in the midwest and got my copy today in the mail and noticed also that it was available at the local Borders. Actually, you should be able to get it any day now, wherever you live. They tested just those three cars (excluding the RL, the STS, Jag, and others), but did a really good job with all three.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=264589&page_number=3
If you are attempting to go in the snow on street shoes you may sink. However, snow shoes will allow you to walk on the snow.
You want to have as much traction as possible.
You do not want to walk on top of the snow.
Wide tires are like snow shoes.
Skinnier tires allow you to move forward by sinking.
I brought the article to the attention of this erudite group to generate conversation.
It worked.
I could have terrible experiences with my new M35X, I will be very pleased if I have reliability equal to my Audi.
I am sorry your MB is a problem.
Just my two cents worth...