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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • nmdrivernmdriver Member Posts: 23
    I, too, am waiting for a 6 cyl. comparison. (5, E, A6, GS, M, RL). That is what most people will be buying.
    However, I would throw in one more thing to make it interesting: since most people who are considering the 6's have also at least considered the 300C, this should be included as well.

    While I am at it, let me ask for something I really do not expect to see: since all the major players (Including Chrysler) now offer at least the option of AWD, I would love to see this be an AWD test.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I dont know about Audi, but the article seems to conflict with Mercedes recent quality reports. Perhaps the other poster was correct in that this article was referencing only cars that needed towing? The article specifically lists the M-class as a reliable vehicle, where as CR lists it as one of 5 or so "least reliable" cars for 3 years in a row. Mercedes definitely wouldnt be sending out "quality squads" to their suppliers and spending $600 million in recalls and repairs if their cars were as good as the article claims.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I posted the URL without any vetting of the article -- for all I know it was a paid political announcement.

    It is just that it seems there is a lot of German reliability bashing (not just here). When something like this comes along, I thought it would merit our review.

    I too wondered what the remarks about Toyota were about -- they seemed somewhat implausible.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .article 4 Feet Forward -- for those considering (debating?) the arguments relating to AWD (quattro is the focus) and LPS cars, this article may provide data points and viewpoints for the decision making process.

    Most of the LPS offerings now offer AWD (mostly with the 6 cylinder version) and their manufacturers and marketing/brand managers are finding they underestimated demand.

    When picking up my wife's new X3 a couple of days ago, I asked about the 525 and 530xi inbound inventory -- "every 5x we have coming in is already sold and we have already ordered our allocation of 5x's for the next delivery."

    When I spoke with the Infiniti dealers (two bricks and one clicks) they said that the M35X and the M45 were both selling above expectations. It does make me wonder if the M45X is possible (unless gasoline prices kill or slow the V8's popularity).

    As we may all know, Audi currently sells more than 25% of its cars with AWD -- and at this time, the A2 isn't even offered with AWD, so when the A2 model is dropped, it is only logical to assume the percentage will be higher and all evidence suggests that the new 40/60% F/R bias coming in the next AWD Audis will only super-charge this trend.

    IF BMW offers the 7 series in AWD and Jaguar (if it can afford to) expands their AWD (X) program, the transformation to "all AWD, all the time" will have taken another big step forward. Then if Cadillac gets its head out of its nose and kills Pontiac and Buick and offers more AWD across the entire line of some new Chevvies and Cadillacs (probably excluding the Corvette, of course) -- we may even save GM (for although the health care costs may be onerous for GM, I do believe a lot of GM's problems would minimize if they had products customers wanted -- increasingly AWD CARS -- not just AWD Trucks and SUVs).

    Perhaps Lexus has the right idea incorporating AWD and hybrid technologies in their Lux-ute -- where is GM in this regard?

    Anyway, I started suggesting that you check out the new Automobile Magazine (6/2005 issue) for a write up of "how AWD revolutionized the high-performance car," and that's where I'll conclude.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I dont know if an M45x is even possible. There are two stories as to why Infiniti didnt do one. The first is that Infiniti didnt think the demand would be enough to justify the costs, same reason (according to Honda) they decided against a V8 for the RL. The second is that packaging simply doesnt allow for the AWD gear to fit with the 4.5L engine. If thats true, I think you can pretty much rule out an M45x.

    I also wouldnt expect to see anymore AWD Jags, except possibly the "non-SUV cross-over" that they are working on. Its pretty clear that Jag is very nervous about this car, and they definitely do not want the Jag name associated with a traditional SUV. The XJ, XK, and the next S-type definitely wont have AWD (though the 500 derived Lincoln LS probably will), not until at the very least this aluminum platform is redesigned, and considering this is Jaguar, who knows when that will be. Jag was forced into AWD because of the constraints of the Mondeo platform. If they could've used RWD with it, they would have.

    I think a large part of GM's problem is that its cars suck, not that they dont have AWD. Altima, Camry, and Accord all continue to do well despite being FWD. Camry in particular is the poster-boy for how to design a car for this market. I think eventually there are going to be a lot more AWD cars, but its going to take a long time. Look at Subaru. In a way they push AWD even more than Audi does. Subaru doesnt sell a car without AWD, you cant say that about Audi. If AWD cars was what the mass-market wanted right this minute, Impreza and Legacy would be dominating Corolla and Camry, but it isnt quite working out that way.
  • mercedesstinksmercedesstinks Member Posts: 15
    I leased a 2004 E320 just over two years ago and I only wish I had taken the time to review forums such as this 29 months ago. I see the same aggravated customer complaints that I have experienced and I see the same lousy treatment by Mercedes and the Mercedes dealers reported on, by many unhappy customers.
    I have had numerous electrical issues including a defective stereo, headlights shorting out when I go through a carwash, mirror signal lights shorting out, front signal lights shorting out when the car goes through the carwash. The moonroof sticks open occasionally and just keeps opening up over and over again on its own.
    The rear struts both broke at between 10,000 and 20,000 miles. ( at separate times because they never fix anything even though they know it is defective). The front control arm on the drivers side was the last thing to just "break". Upon inspection they determined that the front coil springs were also defective. Upon tearing it apart further on my insistance they finally determined that the entire passenger side was shot also and they reluctantly replaced that also. The front end of this piece of crap car now clunks every time my wheel drops slightly into a road dip.
    The attitude of my dealer in Massapequa, New York has been one that would shame any legitimate dealer. They told me the problems with the radio was unusual which I since found out was very common for the series of malfunctions. The service manager told me that the electrical issues were unusual but my service advisor pulls a bag of blown bulbs out of his desk drawer showing me what a common problem it is. He also tells me he never saw these type of "minor" problems at a different manufacturing company that he used to work at. (Starts with L). The service manager tried to tell me that the bulbs did not short out but rather were just worn out. Upon my continued screaming in the middle of the dealership that THREE LIGHT BULBS (that is $274 by the way) cannot short out at the same instant as they pass through a car wash they finally sent me home with my three lights replaced under warranty. A couple of months later the service manager then tells me that the shorting problem was my fault because the car had body work (which it never had) and that the seals were not properly done. Once again they sent me home with my free light bulbs replaced because I refused to leave the showroom floor to discuss the issue. Amazing how many customers AND MANAGERS listen when you do this in the showroom!!!!
    The strut problems the same service manager tried to blame on excessive mileage (first at 10k, second at 20k, third and fourth at 70k).
    I almost forgot to mention the funny hydraulic sounding noise my breaking system has decided to start doing. Seems to be from the front and sort of sounds like hydraulics releasing slowly or sort of stuck and then beginning to release. Just another thing for me to mumble about for the next 6 months until I can dump my beloved first and last Mercedes.
    To my amusement and pleasure this service manager was dumped the last time I went in and I spent a few minutes talking to the new service manager. He confirmed the issues that I referred to and told me that they were not that unusual, unfortunately, for my year and model car.
    The unfortunate thing for Mercedes is that it was obvious that no one cares. I got through to regional managers who just send you back to the local dealer. I got through to a corporate manager who only referred me back to my local service manager. What they do not seem to care about is that customers like me (54 year old married professional) buy two new cars every 2 to 3 years.) I have owned Corvettes, Nissan 340Z, Saab Aero, Audi's, Dodge Stealth, Misubishi Diamante. Mitsubishi 3000GT, Subaru's, Mazda Millenia, etc over just the last few years and I have never had such a miserable experience, IN GRAND TOTAL, from all of those other cars and dealers combined.
    I now go out of my way to be sure that I tell my story to anyone who is interested as to what a lousy car Mercedes has made and most importantly what a LOUSY COMPANY MERCEDES has proven to me to be. Problems can happen, especially in a redesigned car, but the lousy attention to customer needs and problems, have to be deep seated in Mercedes, right from the top.

    NEVER EVER AGAIN. Buy any other car but don't get sucked and treated as if you are the problem. The repeated stories about Mercedes quality dropping fast are not exagerated.
  • mercedesstinksmercedesstinks Member Posts: 15
    I leased a 2004 E320 just over two years ago and I only wish I had taken the time to review forums such as this 29 months ago. I see the same aggravated customer complaints that I have experienced and I see the same lousy treatment by Mercedes and the Mercedes dealers reported on, by many unhappy customers.
    I have had numerous electrical issues including a defective stereo, headlights shorting out when I go through a carwash, mirror signal lights shorting out, front signal lights shorting out when the car goes through the carwash. The moonroof sticks open occasionally and just keeps opening up over and over again on its own.
    The rear struts both broke at between 10,000 and 20,000 miles. ( at separate times because they never fix anything even though they know it is defective). The front control arm on the drivers side was the last thing to just "break". Upon inspection they determined that the front coil springs were also defective. Upon tearing it apart further on my insistance they finally determined that the entire passenger side was shot also and they reluctantly replaced that also. The front end of this piece of crap car now clunks every time my wheel drops slightly into a road dip.
    The attitude of my dealer in Massapequa, New York has been one that would shame any legitimate dealer. They told me the problems with the radio was unusual which I since found out was very common for the series of malfunctions. The service manager told me that the electrical issues were unusual but my service advisor pulls a bag of blown bulbs out of his desk drawer showing me what a common problem it is. He also tells me he never saw these type of "minor" problems at a different manufacturing company that he used to work at. (Starts with L). The service manager tried to tell me that the bulbs did not short out but rather were just worn out. Upon my continued screaming in the middle of the dealership that THREE LIGHT BULBS (that is $274 by the way) cannot short out at the same instant as they pass through a car wash they finally sent me home with my three lights replaced under warranty. A couple of months later the service manager then tells me that the shorting problem was my fault because the car had body work (which it never had) and that the seals were not properly done. Once again they sent me home with my free light bulbs replaced because I refused to leave the showroom floor to discuss the issue. Amazing how many customers AND MANAGERS listen when you do this in the showroom!!!!
    The strut problems the same service manager tried to blame on excessive mileage (first at 10k, second at 20k, third and fourth at 70k).
    To my amusement and pleasure this service manager was dumped the last time I went in and I spent a few minutes talking to the new service manager. He confirmed the issues that I referred to and told me that they were not that unusual, unfortunately, for my year and model car.
    The unfortunate thing for Mercedes is that it was obvious that no one cares. I got through to regional managers who just send you back to the local dealer. I got through to a corporate manager who only referred me back to my local service manager. What they do not seem to care about is that customers like me (54 year old married professional) buy two new cars every 2 to 3 years.) I have owned Corvettes, Nissan 340Z, Saab Aero, Audi's, Dodge Stealth, Misubishi Diamante. Mitsubishi 3000GT, Subaru's, Mazda Millenia, etc over just the last few years and I have never had such a miserable experience, IN GRAND TOTAL, from all of those other cars and dealers combined.
    I now go out of my way to be sure that I tell my story to anyone who is interested as to what a lousy car Mercedes has made and most importantly what a LOUSY COMPANY MERCEDES has proven to me to be. Problems can happen, especially in a redesigned car, but the lousy attention to customer needs and problems, have to be deep seated in Mercedes, right from the top.

    NEVER EVER AGAIN. Buy any other car but don't get sucked and treated as if you are the problem. The repeated stories about Mercedes quality dropping fast are not exagerated.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Here's my E320 tale of woe:

    Fixed under warranty:

    8.2K Replaced trunk lock assembly
    22.4K Replaced rear tail light lamp unit
    27.6K Replaced front windshield (cracked because the car's shell flexed)
    29.9K Replaced cylinder head front cover
    29.9K Replaced rear axle center piece (not sure what this was)
    29.9K Replaced auxillary fan belt
    38.7K Rebuilt automatic transmission
    38.7K Replaced automatic transmission shifter
    38.8K Replaced cylinder head gasket
    39.0K Replaced sunroof motor
    44.6K Replaced air mass something or other - adjusted a bunch of engine electrical sensors
    51.8K Replaced electrical wiring harness
    51.8K Replaced propeller shaft flex disc

    Paid for these:

    67.3K Replaced dashboard cluster bulbs
    67.3K Replaced turn signal (broke when they did preceeding repair - free)
    67.3K Replaced transmission shifter bushings
    71.9K Replaced stop lamp switch
    71.9K Replaced coolant pump and hoses
    Haven't fixed yet - rear view mirror is loose (need a new one), lower control arm bushings are cracked

    Plus replacing brake pads 8 times and rotors 3 times.

    I did write MB a letter complaining about all the problems up to 52K miles hoping that they might want to stand behind their products and offer me an extended warranty. Lexus fixed things beyond the warranty period as a show of goodwill. Their reply was that they couldn't do this (why not?). My reply was that they just guaranteed that I would never buy another MB car in my life. Had similar issues with my previously owned Porsche. The wife wants a BMW - understandably I'm leary of buying another high quality German vehicle.
  • nmdrivernmdriver Member Posts: 23
    If it is any consolation, you are not alone. Mercedes quality problems run across the entire product line and are world-wide. Most of my friends who have purchased Mercedes in the past three years have tales of woe. And, most of them say that they are not going to buy another.
    The problems appear to have started when Mercedes decided that it had to pay attention to costs. Unfortunately, a company with a tradition of engineering the "best", then charging whatever it cost to build the "best" did not know how to build a quality product to a target cost.
    What is surprising is that it has taken so long for this to catch up with them in the market. It is still true that if you are buying a car to impress other people, there is no substitute for a Mercedes or a BMW.
  • mercedesstinksmercedesstinks Member Posts: 15
    Sounds like I should quit complaining about my piece of crap 2004 Mercedes.... sounds like I got the "GOOD" one!!!!!!!!!!
  • bw45sportbw45sport Member Posts: 151
    My condolences to you on the problems you've experienced. It's a pity your first Mercedes didn't come at a time when they still built great cars.

    I've posted numerous times in regards to the problems that I've experienced. I hope that the venom that seeps through when discussing Mercedes does not become tiresome but I do feel obligated to pass along my experiences. NO ONE deserves the treatment that I've received and have personally witnessed others receiving. If I cause one person on the fence to reconsider their purchase it will be worth my time.

    As Mark noted in a reply to me, it's entirely possible that the M35x he receives could turn out to be a lemon. I certainly hope this is not the case but the undeniable fact is that all manufacturers produce them. It's the frequency with which they are produced and the manner in which dissatisfaction is resolved that make the difference. I've dealt with Mercedes for over 20 years and they've always had an arrogant swagger to them but they used to build great products and would stand behind them. That's no longer the case. Maybe they fear that if they stand behind their cars their customers will back over them.

    Mercedesstinks, the only good thing that has come out of my recent experience is that it forced me to go back and test drive cars again and see how anxious other people were to have my business. I've found that I prefer the drive of Infiniti to Lexus but note that both offer well-built products that are feature laden and work. These two companies complete the ownership experience by offering unmatched customer service as well.

    BTW, Lexusguy, the article regarding quality (breakdowns) was not the full length version I'd seen in the newspaper a couple of months ago, but the source is the same. In the newspaper article they stated that the data were compiled from call-out records from emergency vehicle (towing) companies.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I, too, am an AWD-proponent. But I'm not so sure I subscribe to the "AWD all of the time" mantra, or believe that AWD will substantially gain market share in segments outside of LPS or SUVs/crossovers.

    Mark, if you happened to live in L.A. or Miami or Phoenix or even Dallas, I bet you would be singing the virtues of RWD....

    AWD brings several drawbacks....

    1. It adds a 300~500 pound weight penalty to the car, and weight is the enemy of performance and gas mileage.

    2. It also adds cost...probably an additional 5% to 15% to average MSRP, with the higher rate applying to lower end cars, if we assume AWD extends to those segments where most normal folks turn for their transportation needs.

    3. AWD cars are also more complex, and I would suggest their tendency for maintenance, break down, and repair will be higher on average compared to FWD or RWD.

    4. Another significant benefit of FWD platforms is that it helps with interior space, packaging, and design. AWD and its additional driveshaft/drivetrain components add cost to the process of maximizing interior space.

    Finally, there are many parts of the country where AWD is simply not necessary due to weather and driving conditions. Nearly all of the West Coast, the Southwest, much of the South, Florida, and parts of the lower half of mid-Atlantic, for starters. RWD and FWD offer far better alternatives to AWD.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Believe me I know where you're coming from. Many moons ago I used to drive German. The problems in those days were more mechanical than electrical, but the cars still made frequent trips to the shop, and I was always borrowing my wife's Honda to get to work. (Mysteriously, her car was always reliable). I tried the Q45, and it wasnt bad, but I was immediately sold on the LS400. I've been driving an LS in one form or another for over 10 years, and I'll never go back to german, not when the big Lexus has treated me like a king.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Many years ago I used to believe the Japanese produced reliable vehicle. Well I guess statistically they do. But I had a string of bad luck with 3 Nissans in row. Each one going back to the shop every few months for this that and the other thing. Good thing I leased.

    Now I'm a smarter wiser consumer and I wouldn't bet the bank on the fact when I buy Japanese I'll get a reliabile vehicle and when I buy German, I'll get a lemon. In fact it was the other way around. YMMV.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    There's no question that Japan has built some lemons. Some of the Japanese models from the late 70s into the mid-80s were not paragons of cutting edge engineering, technology, or even quality.

    Their main advantages were that they were inexpensive and different compared to domestic models, and they emphasized value in their marketing. The Japanese took many ideas that were originated elsewhere, and simply improved on those ideas through hard work, teamwork, and discipline. Japan was intent on taking over the world in 1944, and after being humiliated and totally destroyed after WWII, had to literally rebuild everything in 20 years without the benefit of any of its own natural resources.

    I think the biggest difference is that Japan continues to learn, improve, and evolve. That rate of improvement is nothing short of scary. They are light years ahead of where they were 10 years ago, and I'm not sure you can conclude the same levels of advancement with domestic or European manufacturers. They still burn with a unique global superiority complex that drives their success.

    We are witnessing the same levels of progress and evolution among the Korean brands right now. (Note that Hyundai was dead last in quality 5 years ago, and witness how far they've come in such a short time.) And if China or India ever get their act together in terms of internal infrastructure, government policy, and social engineering, those two countries represent the future from a global perspective.

    Japan's biggest weakness is that they have virtually no natural resources of their own, so must rely on other nations for raw materials. No wonder they have built manufacturing facilities all over the U.S. and even in Europe. Moving those design and manufacturing bases into global locations makes imminent sense.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    My wife got the ML when it first came out, and had a similarly bad experience. The car kept burning through oil and the dealership actually accused her of TAKING the oil out herself! They went so far as to tape the oil cap so they'd know if it was tampered with! Can you imagine the aggrogance in that? They actually blamed the customer for what was an obvious problem with the engine. So of course the car burned through the oil again despite their tape job and the offered her a great deal on a new ML (her's was 2 years old at that point). Then they turned around and tried to rip her off by giving her a crappy deal. Finally after she shopped the competition and threw a similar fit to your's on the showroom of the dealership they gave her a "good" deal on a new ML. On the other side of it, she did buy another ML and had no problems with it to speak of. This past weekend we drove the new ML500 which is a beautiful truck (sorry to post about SUV's on the LS forum, but I'm maily taking about Mercedes in general). Thing is, how many problems is the new ML going to have. Being a first year model probably a lot. Though I will say, my 545 is a first year model and I haven't had a single problem with it. I know others have, but a lot of people I've spoken to that have them haven't had any problems either. It's amazing though that a 2004 E320 would have those problems. Sounds like the car got in an accident, and they "fixed" it and sold it as new (and then to add insult to injury blamed you for doing body work!).
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    A dealer service dept taping an oil cap shut because they believed the customer was intentionally syphoning oil backwards out of the engine block has to take the cake for stupidity and arrogance. That is just plain bizarre.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Insightful comments off vtec.net regarding the 2006 RL...

    Here's what we already know about the '06 RL. As per (Honda CEO) Takeo Fukui's remarks at the Detroit Auto Show, the 2006 RL will be fitted with Honda's Collision Mitigation Brake System (CMBS). Other than that we don't expect to see much else for the '06 model, though we would really love to see Acura offer a factory option wheel/tire upgrade package, and perhaps even a sportier suspension tune along with it.

    Now, let's look at the bigger picture and beyond model year 2006 for a moment. The 2005 RL is selling much better than past RLs, but is it selling as well as Acura had hoped? Perhaps not. Acura projected sales of 20000 models annually, and in general their past projections have been fairly conservative. But in the case of the RL, the year to date total for calendar year 2005 stands at just under 5500 units after 4 months, so at this rate it appears they will fall short of projections in the first year. Generally that's not a good sign. It's not a disasterous result, but what's going on?

    By any measure, the RL is quite a superb car, but it's in a very competitive segment with a lot of appealing vehicles, many of which are all-new for model year 2005 or 2006. So it may be a tad early to say at this point, but it would seem that Acura may feel some pressure to do something more extensive than normal with the car when the time for an MMC (mid-cycle model change, or minor model change) comes. But if you think about it, there's not a whole lot that they can do to the car itself even if it is decided that changes are necessary. By virtue of the platform chosen by Honda for the RL, there are precious few options for the product planners to address much of anything with the car.

    Perhaps the most logical enhancement would be to fit Honda's IMA system to the car to boost performance and economy. This would make it Honda's first AWD high-performance hybrid vehicle, and one of the priciest on the market. But an IMA system would add weight, cost, and further reduce cargo area, and the car doesn't really have much wiggle room in these areas to begin with. Otherwise, it's not likely that there's any meaningful amount of additional power or torque that could be added to the car without extensive re-engineering of the package (there's not much that will fit besides the transverse V6 that is already found in the RL). To reduce costs, a 2WD version of the RL could be offered, but the platform virtually dictates that it would have to be FWD, and that doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Perhaps the only remaining option would be to add more gadgets, such as laser (or radar) cruise control, lane departure warning system, nightvision, in-car entertainment systems, etc... But it's my opinion that adding these sorts of options will not increase sales. It will be interesting to see how the RL matures over the next few years.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I still think its a little early to decide wether the RL will ultimately be a failure or not. The TSX started out pretty slow, and has been steadily gaining in sales. On the other hand, the TSX still subscribes to the traditional "bargain luxury!" Acura formula. I think it just took America awhile to get past the EX-V6 Accord that can be had for similar cash. The RL is luxurious enough, but is it a bargain? IMO, not really. Acura's options with the car are hybrid power, which seems unlikely. HSD is buttery smooth enough in operation for Lexus duty, but IMA is somewhat clunky in its operation as it cant "mix and match" electric and gas power at once like HSD can. Its fine for a Civic HX, but I dont think people would be willing to accept it in what would probably be a $56K Acura. I dont think Acura could sell cars at that price yet anyway.

    The other option is an A-spec package, which probably will show up at some point. Again though, I dont see this making much of an impact, as maybe 1% of TLs are A-spec.

    Acura should've skipped the AWD, and made the car a more agressively styled RWD car. This could have saved hundreds of pounds, eliminated the understeer problem that requires SH-AWD in the first place, and gotten the performance more in line with the 300hp rating. Then price the car at maybe $43K, and Infiniti and Lexus might find it much harder to sell M35s and GS300s.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My use of the term AWD all the time was perhaps more of a "writing device" -- sort of meant to conjure up the sing-song like phrase from top 40 radio "all the hits all the time."

    On the other hand, the constant move forward by many auto manufacturers into AWD technologies (current fave of course being to point out that your AWD version is "rear biased" AWD or as Audi is now starting to use in their copy "asymmetrical" AWD) is expected to accelerate in the next 2+ years and newer (lighter, more efficient, better perhaps) technologies are presumably on the horizon that when coupled with hybridization (?) begin to make even more sense.

    Since we (my wife and I) have two cars (well, we have three at the moment) at any one time and we basically designate one "his" and one "hers" we will stay with AWD all the time (hers a new X3 mine a new M35X (soon).)

    I started out pointing out that I didn't mean to be taken literally.

    "Never mind." - E.L.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    IMO, Honda threw so much at this RL that there's really no meaningful room left to go with it. I predict it will be left to fester for 5-7 years like the last one. As far as increasing power, they're already stretching that 3.5 V6 pretty thin as it is as far as natural aspiration goes. They could turbocharge it, but that will add at least a few thousand to the price, thereby making it even less competitive in its market. Or they could, as you already said, go hybrid with it; there again adding at least a few thousand to the price and still making it less competitive in its market.

    As near as I can tell, the only real fans and purchasers of this RL are the diehard Honda fans. I think anyone who objectively cross-shops the RL with its competition will, 90% of the time, find the competition to simply be better. This is not to say the RL doesn't have a lot to offer, because it does. I cross-shopped it and the two, and only two, things that turned me away were its uninspiring looks and its diminutive back seat. At the time, I was shopping it against the E500 and the new A6 4.2. The RL's numbers say it has a bigger interior, but the actual layout tells a totally different story. I'm not sure how they did their measurements, but in reality, the whole does NOT equal the sum of its parts.

    Anyway, now that the new Infinity M is out, that's the car for me. It has the size, power, performance, and amenities that I want in a "luxury" car.

    I will say, though, that cross-shopping the RL against the new GS300 AWD would be a good way to go. They both have a lot to offer, but they're both tiny on the inside and have very little room for cargo. A perfect matchup!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "IMO, Honda threw so much at this RL that there's really no meaningful room left to go with it. I predict it will be left to fester for 5-7 years like the last one"

    Actually, the previous RL has been with us since '96. Acura tweaked the styling and made some minor changes in '99, but it was just a refresh. I agree with you about the RL losing to its competition. The M is just too good for Acura to keep up.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    You may be right that the majority of RL buyers are previous or current Honda/Acura customers. Our household certainly qualifies, since my daily driver is an Accord 6-spd coupe, and I've also owned several other Hondas. My wife is 80% driver of our RL, and her prior car was an Audi A4 3.0.

    I would also bet that Infiniti is winning more conquest buyers from other brands, and a fair number of M-buyers are probably upgrading from another Infiniti or Nissan.

    Styling is subjective, but I prefer the interior/exterior styling of the RL over that of the M35/45. To me, the RL looks like a TSX/Accord on steroids, and the M looks like a Maxima/Altima on steroids. I don't care for the tail lights or "boy racer" tailpipes on the M, and with the 19" wheels, the M screams "look at me." I guess I am more of a "Q-ship" driver. The blue/white lighting in the interior of the RL is also more attractive (to me) than the yellow/red combo in the M. I'm generally not a big fan of Nissan's heavy use of yellow instruments. Agree that the RL is far more conservative in appearance, and neither car is ugly or controversial, that's for sure. And clearly, the M is the better driver of the two, which is where it counts for me.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .my initial impressions of our 400 mile old BMW X3 are over on that forum. After a few days with this little dude, I can ALMOST see it as an honorable mention for inclusion as an LPS vehicle.

    I did say almost.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Heh. If only BMW had some sort of sedan version of the X3 :)
  • scoop4scoop4 Member Posts: 40
    I'm someone who almost bought an RL but decided on a M35x. I could have gone either way. Both cars are great but the M had:

    1) 4 yr / 60,000 warranty
    2} rear camera display on nav when backing up car
    3) 6 way power seats for the passenger (my wife couldn't believe that the RL passenger seat wouldn't go up and down like our BMW did)
    4) ventelated seats that can be cooled as well as heated ( great when you buy a black interior)
    5) variable all wheel drive (rear wheel car most of the time)

    Having said that I though the RL had a great ride and was bluetooth compatible with my Palm Treo 650 PDA phone which the M isn't at this time.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    ". . .my initial impressions of our 400 mile old BMW X3 are over on that forum. After a few days with this little dude, I can ALMOST see it as an honorable mention for inclusion as an LPS vehicle.

    I did say almost."


    Almost nothing. It handles better than many sedans. Enjoy.
  • imani_techimani_tech Member Posts: 3
    The Infiniti M is an excellent car, but Acura does not need to keep up. The RL is not far from its sales goals overall. Remember that we're doing an "apple-to-oranges" comparison here. We are comparing the Infiniti M product line that consists of 5 separate models (M35, M35 Sport, M35x, M45, M45 Sport) to the Acura RL which has 1 model in the product line. A more realistic comparison would be between the RL and the M35x.

    The M35x is great car and I came close to buying it. I especially liked the cooling seats and the passenger seat that is more adjustable than the RL's seat. The problem (for me) is that the M35x adds the weight of AWD without any additional power. Also, I didn't see any advantage of the M's AWD sending torque mostly to the rear wheels by default. In addition, I really like the NavTraffic system on the RL. It's great for surviving traffic in DC! Finally, the RL cost me less than the M35x would have cost for similar features, so I went Acura. To each his own, though. There isn't a bad car in this bunch.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    They need to advertise more. It seems GS and M have a blitz going.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    An issue (not mine, exactly) is that the RL is a FWD biased AWD car. To play in this game (right or wrong) you need to be at least symmetrical (think Subaru and the current crop of quattros) AWD "posers" like Acura and Volvo are being dissed.

    Frankly I am not convinced this is all that big of a deal as a practical matter.

    But after all these years for Audi to announce it is determined to shift to RWD AWD bias should tell the engineers and marketing types at Acura they may have underestimated what the market currently expects.

    Don't shoot the messenger. I already suggested that I understand the market's message despite its value primarily "at the limit."

    I know this will raise the ire of the RWD folks and I do not have a strong argument to defend this apparent market thrust -- overall the RWD bias seems to preserve the ability to induce "tail out" (oversteer) behavior. FWD biased AWD seem determined to offer understeer.

    SH-AWD does mitigate this for all practical purposes.

    Yet, to be in this crowd anymore it seems that RWD biased or at the very least 50-50 balance drive is the price for respect.

    The RL is, by all accounts, worthy of inclusion in the LPS ranks -- yet as more and more of the big guns move to RWD biased AWD, those FWD biased AWD guys (like Acura and Volvo) need to "get with the perception is reality" crowd and announce the next gen will be RWD biased, SH-AWD.

    Oh yea, announcing a V8 would be a big help (to sales) too.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not sure its as clean cut as that. Weight balance is just as important as where the majority of torque is being sent. I think even if you are pushing 60% or more of torque to the rear wheels under "normal" road conditions, if the car is front heavy, like the RL, the Volvos, and pretty much every AWD system derived from a FWD design, including Audi, understeer is inevitable. To get the RL to handle like the M35, they would need to get the weight balance to within at least 53\47 or so. If they did that, it wouldnt need SH-AWD's special abilities.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    A rather strange statement by MB about previously stated goals of beating Lexus..and I guess Subaru now in JD power ratings from C&D:

    "But, during a question-and-answer session following a speech at an industry conference in Spain, Eckhard Cordes, head of the Mercedes Car Group, said "We are carefully analyzing whether this is a reasonable goal or not, and then we will answer the question once we have finished our analysis."

    Cordes added that the survey is based "not only [on] hardware quality" but on "American tastes and how they want the cars....On the steering wheel, if you have four, five or six buttons, you get a lower rating....One has to analyze...whether it is worth being No. 1. We are still debating this or whether we are better off with No. 2 or No. 3."

    Mercedes has a hellish amount of work to do to even get 3rd place, let alone first.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Member Posts: 692
    After the merger, the arrogant folks from Mercedes complained that Mercedes was making all the money and Chrysler was losing it. Now the shoe's on the other foot, with Chrysler and its various 300 models making money for the company and Mercedes, with its miserable repair record destroying sales, is losing it. (I still suspect that after the novelty of the 300 and all its gas guzzling variations wears off, Chrysler will revert to form.)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Agreed.

    Weight balance, too, is important.

    The BMW x cars are darn near the best balanced of the bunch -- and despite the other issues that may be currently plaguing BMW, it does have the holy grail, RWD AWD and excellent balance.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Mercedes makes the best luxury cars in the world. While people here have complained about Mercedes quality, I know people who have had great success with very high and medium end recent models.

    People keep coming back to Mercedes because they realize that fact.
  • ksomanksoman Member Posts: 683
    KD, now you are being paid by mercedes too?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually based on recent sales, less and less people keep coming back to Mercedes. I cant imagine why.
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    >>Finally, there are many parts of the country where AWD is simply not necessary due to weather and driving conditions. Nearly all of the West Coast, the Southwest, much of the South, Florida, and parts of the lower half of mid-Atlantic, for starters. RWD and FWD offer far better alternatives to AWD.

    I totally disagree. Just because an area doesn't get snow, or much snow, doesn't mean AWD isn't necessary, or at least very useful. In the DC area there are two problems. 1. We often get heavy rains after long periods of dry weather - a problem shared by many of the areas you mentioned in your post. This tends to make roads very slick, which is what happened to me last summer - I lost it on a curve in the rain with my FWD RL. 2. We get 3-4 heavy wet snows each winter which many RWD cars simply can't handle, unless you want to use snow tires all winter for 3-4 snows.

    As a result, I'm sold on AWD and love my RL. I might go back to RWD if I moved to the sunbelt, but I wouldn't go back to FWD.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    This has to be "just kidding" doesn't it?

    I certainly don't claim I know who makes the best lux car in the world, and I guess if the list was a "top 10" based at least on perception, that Mercedes would make that list. But I find it hard to believe that most folks (with experience or who are automitive "journalists") would put Mercedes in the top 3.

    I've been wrong before.

    Now if we're talking about a time long since passed, sure, I'll give you that. . . .
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    AWD's winter prowess is a bonus to be sure. But AWD is for performance, practical day in day out performance.

    Well as they say "it never rains in Southern California" but even there, there are certainly times when the performance advantages (for mere mortals like us) of AWD have value.

    Now I know there are a lot of figures swirling about and my guess is someone who has some time and patience will get the data -- but I have been reading up on AWD systems and SOME of the systems that are written about currently claim a weight penalty (sometimes) as little as 150 pounds and they also claim an IMPROVEMENT in fuel economy at speeds above 40MPH virtually offsetting this weight penalty. Moreover, as the AWD technology moves forward with hybrid vehicles this penalty has some promise of even diminishing further.

    I'm not suggesting some inferiority with RWD -- and I am certain that it can be demonstrated that a perfect RWD car in a racing setting probably makes more sense than an AWD car. But please read the new Automobile magazine article on 25 years of quattro before you dismiss AWD as not being of any advantage in certain parts of the country.

    Just like orange juice (not just for breakfast anymore) AWD is not just for winter anymore.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    An AWD with the same drivetrain otherwise, wouldn't get better gas mileage, unless the gearing was changed to achieve that... Adding weight and more drag through the driveline connection can never improve gas mileage, so that is not an apples to apples comparison...

    I'm sure there are race applications where AWD can be used to improve handling performance, but in the real-world, the AWD always handles worse than the RWD counterpart... There is no overcoming the physics of the additional weight...

    However, there are natural advantages when adding AWD to a FWD platform, as Audi and Subaru have done.. And, of course, winter weather advantages are obvious..

    AWD may fit one's lifestyle and driving habits and be worth the money, but that doesn't mean that there aren't trade-offs.. Any efforts to mitigate those trade-offs through gearing or other weight reduction, could be applied to the RWD platform just as easily... Whether the manufacturer chooses to do that, is another variable..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    . But I find it hard to believe that most folks (with experience or who are automitive "journalists") would put Mercedes in the top 3.

    Come on Mark, I know Mercedes has their troubles but not in the top 3...thats a little bit much. When you look at everything (not just reliablity) there are only three in the running for that title. Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. It surely isn't Acura, Audi, Infiniti, Jaguar, Saab, Volvo or Cadillac. Of these Infiniti, Audi and Cadillac all have a slight case, but still they aren't considered by anyone to be the "best". Maybe in a segment like with the new Infiniti M, but the brand isn't even close to Lexus, let alone Mercedes or BMW. Audi has made great progress too, but I'm still sorta in shock that you jumped ship. :surprise:

    One reason for Mercedes' position is that they compete on so many different levels with the widest range of products in the luxury car business. Not even BMW can match them for choice. Problem is reliability is hanging over every one of their cars, no matter how the press raves over a new Benz, that reliability factor is still there in a lot of peoples minds. Still though I just like that they can offer 2 different roadsters, a 4-seat cabrio, a diesel, wagons, a sedan/coupe thingy, 2 true coupes, and a carbon fiber engineering exercise, and Hummer-class suv all under one brand.

    M
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I stole these from someplace, but I thought these summed up the image that various brands generate in the consumers' mind. It doesn't mean that these brands deliver on these images, but oftentimes, image is reality.

    BMW - Status, performance, generally younger
    Lexus - Luxury, smooth, quiet, quality, mix of ages but skews older
    Infiniti - 90% of BMW w/ lower prices, generally younger
    Mercedes - Status, engineering, heritage, generally older
    Acura - Precision, practicality, quality, mix of ages
    Audi - Quattro, German engineering for less price, Bauhaus, mix of ages
    Saab - Ignition between the seats, turbo, regional, mix of ages
    Volvo - Safety, family, practical, mix of ages (w/focus on parents)
    Jaguar - British, leather, status, generally older
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I lived in the DC area myself for 3 years, so I agree with you. But it doesn't change my point that AWD is not necessary in many parts of the US. With sophisticated traction/stability control devices to augment FWD (or even RWD), and decent tires, you don't need AWD in many places. The compromises posed by weight, complexity, cost, etc. will always be there.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Actually based on recent sales, less and less people keep coming back to Mercedes. I cant imagine why.

    What sales are you talking about specifically? Worldwide or the U.S. You make it seem like MB is having a sales crisis when they're only off a few percent compared to last year, which in the U.S. was like the 10th straight year of sales growth. Their new models like the CLS and SLK are hits. The only volume model that is taking a true beating is the E, for various reasons. Competition and the CLS mainly, imo.

    Now Mercedes' reliablity is a crisis for sure. They're looking like :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:

    M
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well, I asked for it.

    Dr. Piech wrote an article -- if I find it, I'll post it or link to it. The article claimed that the "rolling resistance" in "his" AWD platform (quattro, I would guess) offsets part of the weight gain and that contrary to what would seem to be the case the impact of four driven wheels above 40MPH can offset the "resistance" that a car equipped with only 2WD has, thus reducing the fuel economy impact.

    I don't have an engineering degree and the extra weight is real (thus far) and probably there will always be some weight issues (even with four lightweight electric motors or whatever).

    The write ups about AWD generally seem to indicate that when AWD cars competed with RWD cars, the RWD car drivers and owners cried "unfair advantage" about the AWD cars.

    I can't believe the races were always on slick surfaces either.

    Finally according to Wards Auto World (for what their opinions are worth) AWD vehicles (cars) continue to gain in popularity and that virtually every time a manufacturer brings the option of AWD to market that they "underanticipate" demand.

    The buying habits of the consuming public do not exactly translate to "this that or the other thing -- being purchased" is superior, but it is an interesting phenom.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    As I stated above... you can tune a race-car to have an advantage with AWD.. So, theoretically, anything is possible... But, racing doesn't relate very well to the real world..

    I agree... AWD popularity has really taken off.. and it is interesting.. I just don't see any AWD models out there that have an advantage over comparable RWD models, other than winter weather..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I have to agree with merc1. Let's not get too crazy about everyone jumping ship from Mercedes because of some reliability issues. Yes, how they treated my wife is nothing short of astounding (and I promise you, she is not some spoiled complainer that throws a fit anytime ANYTHING goes wrong with her car like some Mercedes drivers), but she still loves the cars. The only thing holding her back from buying the new ML is the fact that it's the first year of the new design. I can see why the E is taking somewhat of a beating. Having driven the E500, and comparing it to my car I find it somewhat boring. That's just my opinion though because as we know a lot of people out there hate my car and think the E is beautiful. It's a nice car, I must admit, but it wasn't a tough choice not to get it. It just seems to be missing something. Throw in realiability issues, and better competition and there you have it. Having said that one problem I have with these forums is that people throw around comments about sales without actually researching them. Then when you present the real figures people try to come up with broad justifications for why sales are better than they expected. Take the 5 and 7 series. It's almost as if people think that simply because they don't like the designs no one else does or if they do they need their heads examined. Well, the Bangle 7 is the best selling 7 ever and the 5 continues to get stronger and stronger in sales. So like with Mercedes, perception is different than the facts. People can say the new BMW's sell simply because of the badge, and the same goes for Mercedes. That opinion isn't based on anything however. Bottom line is, neither company is having a hard time selling cars so someone likes them.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I was talking more about sales in Europe, which are down 7%. Mercedes US sales arent bad, but they dont compare to BMW or Lexus sales. Speaking of which, it will be interesting to see how the US market reacts to the new ML350, and if Mercedes can steal any sales back from the RX330.

    How about the Porsche 911? The RWD GT2 needs race-driver instincts to not crash, where as the AWD Turbo is easy as pie.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    Gee.. you know.. as soon as I posted that, I thought of the 911 Turbo..

    But, I think that is more of a case of using AWD to take advantage of more power than is possible to use with just RWD (which is a race-car advantage, also).

    Also, in the same way that AWD can improve handling of a FWD platform, AWD improves the handling of what is an inherently unstable rear-engine (NOT mid-engine) platform of the 911... though most of that instability has been tuned out of it...

    I think the 911 example is kind of an extreme one, and doesn't really relate to most sedans... (you had to pick my dream car, though, didn't you?) ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

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