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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    it is way too broad of a generalzation to judge a whole auto company by an experience at a particular dealer.

    Definitely so. But for me personally, having read some of the horror stories on this board over the past week or so has given me pause. I used to think that reliability was the main issue in the way of my buying MB, but now I really have to think about the dealer experience and how any potential problems are dealt with (or not dealt with). I'm sure that some MB dealers are better than others, but I think that survey data suggest that my probability of having a bad experience are greater with an MB dealer than with say a Lexus dealer. Something I'm going to keep in mind for the future.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    Now my bad! I should've known Lexus would've picked a classic.
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    Oh sure, go ahead. Make us all look bad. sheesh There's one in every crowd.
  • richcreamrichcream Member Posts: 205
    http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1600870,00.html

    This is one harsh review.
    The ethnocentric (bordering on racist) commentary is reminiscent of the British mindset from the days when they had an empire.

    And what does this guy expect the reaction to "British cuisine" to be other than revulsion?...that poor girl.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Have you driven the M45? Clements went on and on doing a great impression of Bob Lutz, about how the GS was going to finally be a 5 killer from Lexus. Then they saddled the GS430 with the most agressive stability control system in their history, and NO off switch of any kind.

    "As soon as the system senses the front tires sliding, which happens when you're driving a car quickly, the system basically shuts the car down. A few times during one particular canyon run the car actually came to a literal stop in a few very slow, very tight corners. No fun." -Edmunds

    That was from one of the few reviews that was generally positive about the GS430. Most of the others have been either mixed or negative. In the "sports" part of sports sedan, the M45 walks all over the GS.

    Rich, I've seen that article. He spends literally the first half of the article literally saying "I HATE JAPAN". I'm willing to bet he would hate the M45 just as much.
  • commofficercommofficer Member Posts: 50
    cstiles,
    I'm okay thanks. Training my replacements now. It is a huge mess over here. I hope the rest of the troops get to return soon.

    I can't wait to go look and test drive cars when I get home. I have been told by my wife, that I need to get something that gets good mileage. That sort of puts a damper on this but I can fudge a little by using EPA estimates. They always seem to be better than what the cars really get.

    Capt. Phil
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I'm not quite as convinced that this review was racist, I am almost convinced that there was no intention to be thus.

    I have been to England many times -- they say (whoever they are) that the Brits and the Americans are 96% the same, but that the 4% is huge (this article surely demonstrates that.)

    Now, since I would not personally say I thought this was in any way intentionally "racist" (besides aren't we all members of the HUMAN race?) I also must say that I thought some parts of this review were hilarious.

    I have nothing against the Brits or the Japanese -- but can't we have a laugh from time to time and not jump to the conclusion that things like this are anything other than "quirky?"

    I did not sense he was saying "the west is best" or that the east is somehow lame. I did sense he was saying things are different and that he, personally, may prefer mashed potatoes to sushi. One of the folks I work with won't eat anything that ever had "eyes" -- I asked her if that included potatoes; she certainly seemed to think that was silly (and she laughed).

    She's from India.

    Her husband, on the other hand, can't seem to get enough meat regardless of where it once inhabited (land or sea).

    I focussed on his comments on the car -- in his own way, he echoed the sentiments of Car & Driver.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I drove the 545, GS 430 and M45. Two of them were satisfying drives.
    The GS handles very well and most people would be quite satisfied with its power, very good steering and cornering. As a BMW owner, I was impressed. If you drive the autobahn and take curves at 80 mph, then the GS is not your car since its electronic aids will kick in and prevent you from achieving your goals. This car was my favorite of the 3.
    The M45 sport handled great too but its raspy engine noise when accelerating hard proved annoying. I also found its suspension quite jolting. It was a lot of fun to drive. I took a curve quite fast and was impressed at how quickly the car recovered and achieved stable straight line motion. But I think as an everyday vehicle, the novelty would quickly wear off.
    The 545 was least impressive probably because it had the annoying active steering. Its acceleration and suspension were great but I could corner better with my 325. I also found the dash intimidating.
    I drove my brother-in-law's 2003 530i(the car CR gushed as being as close to perfect a car as their measurements allowed) last year and also came away unimpressed-the steering wasn't sharp and I didn't find the car very stable through the turns.
    I will drive the new 330i next and as long as I don't look at the rear end, I should be okay. This one may be the answer but given BMW's decline in reliability, who knows what's in store with this new model.
    G-d help us!
    In closing, let me say that both Infiniti and BMW have very high residuals and decent money factors for the M45 and 545 for those who lease. Not so for Lexus and the GS. One can get a better leasing deal nowadays on the LS since one can negotiate 10-12% off MSRP.
  • ram4ram4 Member Posts: 2
    i have narrowed down my choice to these two cars. like the nav in rl but the rear camera in the lexus. the acura lease is about 725 - 750 for 4 years and the lexus is around 800. any thoughts have others compared the two.is the acura as much fun. the lexus name and reliability and the service may be a plus. any suggestions welcome
    r2d2
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Interesting. I didnt have those issues with my M45 tester. I cant explain the engine noise, but perhaps your tester's tires were over-inflated? That seems to be a problem that a lot of people are having with Ms, and causes a rougher than normal ride.

    What do you think of the 2006 IS350?
  • cmybimmergocmybimmergo Member Posts: 265
    Does your BIL's 530 have the sport package? e39 530s are a joy to drive, and I love how mine (02) corners. If my front passenger seat weren't inhabited by unsecured paraphernalia, I'd probably go faster through the turns.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I will try and drive both the GS430 and the M45 again and see if my impressions change.
    I would like to try the IS 350 also but I only have 'til the middle of July to make a decision.
    The salesman showed me the tire pressure data(which I thought was pretty neat) for the M45 I was driving and one tire was slightly under, the others were fine.
    Some time this upcoming week I will visit my friendly inflated money factoring BMW dealer to try the new 330i.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    No sports package and there could lie the problem.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    What will probably eliminate the M for me is the alarming number of posters on the M thread who are complaining of strange noises and smells. Poor gas mileage too. I have yet to see one complaint from any 2006 GS owner regarding the above.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    A couple of things. No way your 325 outhandles the 545. I had the 330xi before the 545 and the 545 can run circles around it. I realize that active steering takes some getting used to, but at higher speeds it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between it and standard steering. The difference is most evident at lower speeds. The dash was "intimidating"? Interesting. I don't think a dashboard has ever scared me before. As far as reliability goes, from what I can tell the E60 has been a pretty reliable new model release. There were some recalls right when it first came out, but I haven't heard anything about reliability issues with it in a while. Remember, you can't compare a newly released model to a model at the end of its lifecycle. You would expect the old 5 to be more reliable since it was around for a long time so they had time to work out the kinks. The E60 is really only in its second year.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    You can't really compare a 330xi to a 325i with sport package.. The 330xi is a big pig in comparison (no offense to 330xi owners, it stilll outhandles 90% of other cars)...

    The 545i might be faster than the 325i... but, not better handling.. The only way it can run rings around a 325i sport, is in a straight line... ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Before making any decisions based on what Edmund Forum posters say one has to keep in perspective what type of people likely post. I would guess that the Infiniti crowd is far more passionate and less forgiving about their Ms than the Lexus poster would be. Ergo, if the same little problem occured in both vehicles, it will probably receive much more poster coverage in the Infiniti group as compared to the Lexus group. Also what percentage of owners of each vehicle is actually using the Edmunds Forums? Again I would guess that you would find a larger percentage of Infiniti owners posting in comparison to Lexus owners (except for the IS). If a Lexus customer has an issue they are complaining to their dealer and are not posting it here. IMHO.

    If you read enough of the posters comments you can quickly discover what motivates them to post. You'll also discover that some people are completely biased one way or the other while still others just don't seem to have a clue : (

    I have posted messages regarding the strange noises but then again I'm far more sensitive to noises than your average Joe. But I have found out that I'm the exception rather than the rule. If you consider any exceptional issue to be "alarming" - well that's your choice. My Lexus sedan also had minor noises but I just turned up the radio. Check out the RX330 forum for even more Lexus noise issues. The smell issues you are referring to are normal burn off of packing oils - they go away. The gas mileage - yes I wish it was higher.

    Drive all the cars and buy the one that fits your personality.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    My 330xi also had the sports package, and if you look at the performance numbers it's faster than the 325i even with slightly greater weight. I don't know where you're getting the idea that it's a "pig" by comparison. Sorry, I disagree about the straight line argument. Yes, the 545 is heavier, but it more than compensates for that with about 100+ more HP. That combined with the fact that it has a much wider track with much wider tires, and slightly better aerodynamics means to me at least that it would blow the 325 away straight line or on curves. Hell, if you listen to the arguments here their are plenty of folks that think AWD handles better which would mean the 330xi would handle better that the 325i. I'm trying to find more technical data to support what I'm saying so I'll get back to you.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    1) The sport package on a 330xi only involves cosmetics.... No changes to the suspension...

    2) Handling.. not acceleration.... that is where the "big pig" term comes in..

    3) Just because the 545i will get through a turn faster, doesn't mean it has better handling... That is due to the better acceleration coming out of the turn.. You had the right idea: "545 is heavier, but it more than compensates for that with about 100+ more HP"...

    The key word is "compensate"... Just because it can "blow away" a 325i does not mean it handles better... You could probably say the same thing about a Mustang GT...

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Lower weight plus lower center of gravity = better handling car. Assuming the sport integrity of the suspensions are similar, and the moment caused by centrifugal force about the longitudinal axis is less on the smaller car, which is very reasonable to assume, the latter handles better. No way the 5 outhandles the 3. And basically, this is why vehicles such as the M5 cannot be considered true sports cars. I wish manufacturers would include vertical CG height with their specs.

    That said, I saw a 545 sport yesterday getting down. He did some serious weaves and the car's gait looks good. Haven't driven the M yet but am very curious because of the reviews. We'll see. The FX got good reviews too but it doesn't beat the X3 IMO.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm no physicist or rocket scientist. All I know is what I can feel. I drove the 545 and a 2003 530i. My 2002 325i handled better. It felt like it was glued to the road-both straight line and hard around the curves-extremely stable. I did not feel this sensation in the other cars. I am not referring to power-just overall balance when driving hard.
    Giving up this vehicle in early August will not be easy. The new 330i had better be as good or better than my 325i, because if it's not, hpowders is going to be really pissed off!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Designman is correct. The smaller car ALWAYS wins in the handling department. Should the 7 outhandle the 5 because its bigger and has more horsepower? No. An Audi S4 can beat an Audi RS6 in a slalom course. The RS6 has gobs more horsepower, but the S4 makes up for that in the cones. Take an M3 and an M5 to a race track, and the M3 will dominate.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    Get a grip.

    When were you last in a British eating establishment? For me, it was 3 weeks ago, and prior to that, five journeys over the past two years haven't left me disappointed.

    The car may not be so good, but food is (as always) a subjective thing.

    Sitting in an establishment that has been in business for 300+ years and still serves what I consider very enjoyable food (bangers & mash w/ a pint of bitter) is a good thing, at least for me.

    The vehicle, however, may not be around long enough to endure the same examination.

    I continue to follow this board to see if the Infiniti M is good enough to make me abandon my position -- never own another automatic transmission. Mark's (to come) inputs will be interesting.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I cant say I was really surprised. Lexus is big in the US, but in Europe they are basically nothing. Doesnt appear that the '06 GS will be enough to change that.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That pompous jerk Jeremy Clarkson took two pages to say what any idiot could have said in two sentences. And yes, it seemed racist. If not, then it was somehow buried in his pretentious verbosity.

    Hmm... bangers and mash... gettin' hungry. Already on the back end of me third pint.

    ;-)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Kind of reminds me of the dedication of the National Cemetery at Gettysburg in 1863.
    Edward Everett, credited with being the country's greatest orator of the time, gave a speech that rambled on for about 2 hours. Then Lincoln hit the bulls eye in less than 2 minutes.
    Said Everett to Lincoln: "I should be glad if I could flatter myself that I came as near the central idea of the occasion in two hours, as you did in two minutes."
  • nmdrivernmdriver Member Posts: 23
    "The 330xi is a big pig in comparison (no offense to 330xi owners, it still out handles 90% of other cars)... "

    Based on my experiences with Audis and Subarus I am a big fan of AWD for driving on any road in any weather. I have been eagerly looking forward to the new crop of AWD versions of RWD cars. Based on the RWD and AWD versions of the Infinity G35, I expected the differences between the RWD and AWD models to be subtle. But this may not be the case. I have come to realize that you have to consider the AWD version to be a different model than the RWD version.
    Since I was comparing the RL, GS, M35, 530 etc., I decided that I should go back for a refresher drive of the less-expensive 300C. This reminded me that the Chrysler is not even close to being in the same class. But it also made me realize that the AWD 300C (which I had not previously seen) is an abomination. To fit the front drive shafts under the engine they have had to jack the car way up. What a strange beast!

    Some interesting comparisons (AWD vs RWD versions)
    GS AWD: 223lbs heavier, .4 in more ground clearance, .4 in taller. Stiffer run flat tires
    M35 AWD: 176 lbs heavier, .5 in taller (no specs on ground clearance),
    55/45 weight distribution (vs. 54/44), 17/24mpg vs. 18/25
    BMW 330I: 66 lbs heavier, .6 in taller, 20/29mpg vs. 20/30. Narrower tires
    taller final drive ratio. No "Sport" option.

    Moral: these are clearly different models. Maybe the difference is subtle. Maybe it isn't. You have to drive the AWD version to know how it will ride, steer and handle.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Clements went on and on doing a great impression of Bob Lutz, about how the GS was going to finally be a 5 killer from Lexus. Then they saddled the GS430 with the most agressive stability control system in their history, and NO off switch of any kind.

    Well even Motorweek, you know the Mary Poppins of the Automotive world, said that the GS430's stability system was the most intrusive yet devised, making the GS430 in particular no fun at all. This was today.

    Clements may have said 5-Series, but what Lexus actually did with the GS is stick to their roots of chasing Mercedes, but this time they even outdid the E-Class for restrictive electronics it seems.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Uh oh. When Motorweek which rates all cars either "good" or "great" says something negative, there's definitely a serious problem. VDIM was supposed to be MORE driver oriented than Lexus' old VSC systems. Instead, its a controlling electronic overlord that would be more at home in the Matrix.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    I'm sure there are many 5 and 7-series owners who may disagree, but IMO, the brand image of BMW skews younger compared to their most direct competition---Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus. This is also explained by the fact that something like 70% of their sales come from the 3-series.

    IMO, compared to Mercedes, Audi, and Lexus, BMW is also perceived to have a greater focus on driving dynamics and speed. (Something about "The Ultimate Driving Machine.") Hence, the younger skew.

    Thanks to the success of the A4, the perception and demographics behind the Audi brand is also skewing younger over the past 7 years. Infiniti is scratching into BMW's backyard, although they still have a long way to go. Acura is far more of a mix, since their product line runs the gamut from RSX to RL (with a tiny dash of NSX), and obviously skews most toward FWD. But of all of the brands, I believe Acura offers the most models with manual transmissions (4 out of 6).

    Just my opinion. That and 50 more cents will buy you a cup of coffee....
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I guess what I'd like to see is numbers to support that. I understand the physics behind it, but a) I'm not so sure the respective suspensions are equal and b) the 5 is only slightly taller than the 3 (like 3 inches) plus it is wider. As you pointed out the weight difference may be the deciding factor with the 325i with sport weighing in at 3351 lbs and the 545i with sport at 3803 lbs. I agree that it would be nice to know exactly what the CG is on both. I don't really know what would prove all of this out. Skid plate numbers maybe? I guess it all doesn't really matter much because in real-world driving you aren't going to encounter many turns that really scare either the 5 or 3. One thing I didn't realize that kdfx pointed out is that the sport package on the 330xi only involves aerodynamics, not suspension. You can bet your local salesperson would never volunteer that bit of info (if they even were aware of it). Maybe that's why I feel like my 545 significantly outhandles my former 330xi.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Are you comparing the handling differences between a RWD 5-series and an AWD 3-series? I would think it would be obvious that in that comparo, the 5 would outhandle the 3. But that doesn't mean the 5 generally outhandles the 3 does it?
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Some excellant observations Cstiles......(Very Acura8) .... and this is just an observation but some of us may pay a little more for our coffee...$1.68 @ Starbucks in my own travel mug....or $1.56 @ Caribou which is a relatively new coffee chain originating out of Minneapolis.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    What I'd really like to see is handling stats for the 545i with SP and the 325i with SP. Everyone that says the 3 would outhandle the 5 might be 100% correct. I'd just like to see that backed up by something other than general physics which don't take into account differences between the two cars in terms of design. Maybe there aren't enough difference for the 5 to make up the weight difference. All I'm saying is I'd like to see just how much of an edge the 3 would have if it has one at all.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    You know, I just spent $3.00 for a Spiced Chai Latte this morning, so I'm also guilty as charged!

    We took the RL to St. Louis last weekend for the Lenny Kravitz concert, and the car was great. I averaged 80 mph and got 23mpg, with 4 passengers and overnight luggage. Bob Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" in 5.1 Surround Sound in SACD format also sounded pretty amazing. The NAV system also helped us maneuver around an accident in downtown St. Louis so all in all it was great.

    And no speeding tickets, either. A white RL doesn't exactly stand out like a black M45 Sport with shiny 19 inch dubs. I seriously wouldn't be shocked if I saw an M45 with spinners!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    BTW, the 7 does not have more HP unless you are taking about the 760 (and 95% of 7's you see are 745's). The 745 and 545 have the same engine. The smaller car with ALWAYS outhandle the larger car IF all things are equal. All I'm saying is that I'm not sure they are. Maybe enough things are equal to give the 3 the edge. Maybe not. I'd just like to see proof in the form of numbers.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .I would assume that the 330xi (when it comes out later this year) would out handle the 530i and 530xi. However, despite my AWD bias, I am not saying this because of the AWD. The wheelbase, weight and perhaps the power to weight ratio would seem to favor the 3 series.

    I just configured a 530xi as minimally as I would want it and it comes to about $55K (without extra charge paint) -- and it claims to be offered for a 36 month lease @ 12K miles per year with a $2,500 cap cost reduction @ $802 per month -- we're now back in 2005 Audi A6 3.2 territory, if this holds constant (which it probably won't). The M35X is starting to be a candidate for inclusion in the "old saying":

    Mercedes - Old Money
    BMW - New Money
    Audi - Smart Money (past tense)

    Honorable "smart money" mention: Infiniti's 2006 M's (and from where I sit, the M35X seems "really, really smart.")

    Infiniti may never rise to inclusion in the German Money group, I have no clue -- but at present the Infiniti has replaced Audi as "the value leader." Now if it ever earns even a little prestige. . .well, it might happen, someday, perhaps, maybe, OK not likely, but not impossible.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You don't need numbers. Just visit your local, friendly, jack up the money factor BMW dealer and drive a 325 or 330 fast around the curves. Then do the same in your vehicle.
    You'll see what I am talking about.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    cstiles, My wife drinks Chai Lattes while I "keep it simple stupid" with regular caffinated Kenya AA if I can get it fresh from Caribou. Your run to St. Louis touched off some fun memories of the kind of music I enjoy. and as far as the black M45 with the addition of "Spinners" ...it cracked me up.

    and an addition to Marks observations:
    Mercedes - Old Money
    BMW - New Money
    Audi - Smart Money (past tense)
    Honorable "smart money" mention: Infiniti's 2006 M's

    RL- Money Winner (Complete Package) ;)
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Actually, I do need numbers. Sometimes what we feel isn't the most accurate. As I said, I had a 330xi before it and I feel like the 545 is significantly more confident in curves. As others have said, the 325i with sport may handle better than the 330xi. I have driven the 325 non-sport as well as a loaner car and certianly didn't feel that it handled better. But there you have it, I didn't FEEL like it handled better. That could be due to the fact that the E60 has more advanced stability control. It may NOT mean that it handles better though. Basically, what I'm getting at is that we all feel things differently. I want numbers so I can rule out individual perception. Another thing to consider though is should we even EXPECT the 5 to handle better? It's basically designed to handle better than its peers. The 325 and 330 are not its peers.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Sometimes what we feel isn't the most accurate."
    I dunno. I think feel is everything. Numbers are sterile. You may get to the 711 1.5 seconds faster than me. But I do believe I will have more fun getting there.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I agree that feel is everything if you are deciding what car you want to buy. Hell, you'll be sitting in it so you better like it. The question I'm posing though is does one car actually out-handle the other? For that answer feel is irrelevant. In the most simple terms, does the 325i get around a turn with greater ability to hold the road than the 545i assuming the drivers are equal? I don't know the answer and maybe it's impossible to determine. If for you the 325 is more fun to drive more power to you. I have no problem with that. I think that the 545 is an infinitely more fun car than my 330xi was. I'm sure this discussion is boring everyone to tears anyway so I'll just look around on my own to find out what the answer is because it's just interesting to me on a purely intellectual level. Both are great cars in their own right.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Car & Driver archives reveal the following....

    2004 330i with performance pkg pulled .86g on the skidpad, and needed 158 feet to stop from 70 mph. This car had 225/40ZR/18 front and 255/35ZR/18 rear Michelin Pilot Sport tires.

    2004 530i with sports package pulled .90g on the skidpad, and needed 167 feet to stop from 70 mph. This car had 245/40WR/18 Dunlop runflat tires.

    They also show a March 2005 test of a 530i w/o sports package that pulled just .82 g,and needed 176 feet to stop from 70mph.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Yup, and the 2004 545i stopped in 156 ft 0-70. They don't give skidpad numbers for the 545 that I can find though.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Sorry, I meant 70-0. One of the reasons I'm saying that the 325i might not handle better though it is smaller is the E60 has active roll stabilization whereas the previous generation 3 did not (I don't know about the new design).
  • marleybarrmarleybarr Member Posts: 334
    In today's Minneapolis paper:
    2005 A6 3.2 , $553.00/mo. plus tax. 36 month lease
    MSRP $48,870.
    Downpayment of $5,178 plus taxes, title fees, unspecified dealer fees.
    Purchase option at lease end: $27,367
    Includes: Premium, convenience,parktronic,18" wheels,cold weather,freight.
    $350.00 disposition fee at lease ending.
    .25/mile over 10,000 miles per year.
    Is this the "smart money" over Infiniti?
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    The comparatively nose-heavy RL pulled a very respectable .87g on the skidpad, shod with very middlin' Michelin Pilot MXM4 tires. A slight upgrade to Michelin Pilot A/S tires, or even summer tires, and this car will easily hit .88 or .89g.

    Not bad for FWD architecture.

    The M45 Sport got into the low .90's with active rear steering, tighter suspension tuning, and beefy tires. Not sure what the M35x did, but likely in the .84 to .86 range?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,175
    With the right tires and a little suspension tweaking, you can get .90+ out of almost any car..

    The key is: How does it feel, and how easy is it to duplicate in real-world situations?

    In the '80s, Renault got a higher skid pad number out of the Alliance GTA than GM could get with a Corvette.. That didn't make the Alliance a better handling car than a Vette..

    regards,
    kyfdx

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  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    So now the key is how it feels. I see. Isn't feel a subjective thing? I "felt" that the 545 was a better handling car than the 325. Hpowders "felt" that the 325 was. Which means that "feel" changes based on the person. The only non-biased way to look at handling is through hard numbers. The fact is, the E60 regardless of how you "feel" handles at least as well if not better than the 325 which apparently wasn't supposed to be possible given the rules of physics. Even the writers at Car & Driver that wrote the article with the stats on the 530 were impressed that it could pull .90 on a skid pad (they even said "Hell, the Porche Boxter pulls .93). The 545 has even wider rear tires so it would probably do even better. We're taking about a nearly 4,000 lb. car that handles better than most cars that weigh 500 lbs less. At least give BMW it's due for achieving that.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Yeah, but now you're talking about upgrading other vehicles. The 530 achieved that number without tweaking. Those are the tires it comes with, and the suspension it comes with.
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