Luxury Performance Sedans

cmybimmergo · May 2005

Celebnty endorsements started decades ago, and continue because they are wildly successful. That said, I think it's like anything else--you have a bell curve, where the top tail will buy anyway, the bottom tail won't buy no matter what, and in the middle are the fence-sitting majority who might be swayed by what they see on TV.

You might want to have faith that the American public are smarter than all that, but remember, if stupidity were a crime, 98% of the world would be locked up.

msu79gt82 · May 2005

I don't think companies use celebrity endorsements to get folks to buy their products per se; but mostly to get folks to notice the product. Celebrities tend to draw peoples attention and capture their interest.

bartalk3 · May 2005

My objection to celebrity endorsements is that they are phony and dishonest. They are lies, to put it bluntly. In 99% of the cases celebrities endorse a product not because they like it or use it, but simply because they are paid to say so. In other words, they are totally meaningless and intentionally misleading. These things (along with much advertising) erodes the moral fiber of the country and leads to general cynicism and distrust of everything out there. That's why you often hear people say Consumer Reports is bought and paid for, bribed, corrupt, etc. People can't imagine any more than anything can be honest because so much out there isn't.

jjacura · May 2005

If Tiger drove non-Buicks to golfing events I believe his sponsor would have a problem.
Privately his Masserati (or whatever) gathers no dust.

hpowders · May 2005

I don't know how many people drive Buicks because of Tiger Woods but I bet there are a lot of golfers that will spend $400-500 on a new driver because it is used by Tiger Woods.
Too bad his swing doesn't come with the club.

bartalk3 · May 2005

An article in yesterday's New York Times revealed that despite all the new high-tech golf equipment of recent years, average scores over the country have not gone down, suggesting most of this stuff doesn't improve one's game (spoken by a non-golfer).

ksoman · May 2005

maybe i'm not smart enough, cuz my average score is not high, but i bet that golf is mostly a mind game... nirvan-ic...

as for tiger, i'm sure he's chaufered to golfing events and doesn't care what people see him step out of, cuz he's not driving...

ksso

hpowders · May 2005

It's a mind game at the highest level particularly. But "it don't mean a thing if you don't have that swing."

warthog · May 2005

Tiger played a tournament in my city (Charlotte) a few weeks ago. The local MB dealer was a sponsor and furnished new Benzes to the top guys for their use during the tourney. My impression was that they drove themselves, but I didn't actually see any of them at the local Burger King. In any case, Tiger wasn't in a Buick.

suvguy2005 · May 2005

The M45 has yet to lose a comparison test.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=31&article_id=2221&page_number=1

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=9391

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/luxury/112_0505_risingsun/index.html

msu79gt82 · May 2005

Thanks for the links.

cstiles · May 2005

Don't forget this one...

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0503_6degrees/

cstiles · May 2005

Or this one...

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/sedans/0505_sport_sedans_comparo/

maxhonda99 · May 2005

Well, if a car comes in 2nd or even 3rd place in a comparison test, can you really call it losing? Just a look at the number ratings show how close all the cars are. not to mention the cars place where they place because of the editor's personal preferences. Different people look for different things in a car, the road test placements mean very little.

cstiles · May 2005

Although one cannot deny the consistently strong showings by the new M, I totally agree with you. Most of these comparison tests also conclude that the results are very close, and that virtually all of the cars are excellent in their own right. For everyday use, and for what typical consumers expect in a luxury performance automobile, just about all of these cars delivers in spades.

The major auto rags also have an admitted bias toward speed and performance(with the possible exception of Automobile Magazine, which follows its own drummer and the musings of David E. Davis). Keeping that bias in mind, it's not surprising that the Infiniti scores so highly, thanks to horsepower, powertrain, handling dynamics, and braking performance.

And relatively speaking, the M presents a good value proposition compared to its competitors. And it's also a new flavor that dares to zig where others zag. The new kid in the sandbox who shows up with the cool new toys will get his due.

bartalk3 · May 2005

Good point: the car mags are biased toward speed and performance, and their ratings reflect primarily that.

That's probably why the GS300 has been pretty much neglected. Not blazing speed. Buyers, however, may value other things such as ride, comfort, quiet, luxury, reliability, etc. So the car mags ratings must be taken with a couple of grains of you know what. CR, for my money, has the best balanced ratings, though in contrast to the car mags, speed and performance are definitely not their prime rating criteria. Handling, however, they do test and value.

lexusguy · May 2005

I think Road and Track's "Rocking the establishment" review was the most interesting of the recent comparison tests. Price really wasnt a factor in this one, they took Infiniti's best, and BMW's best (short of the M5 of course), and came up with a winner...and it was the M45.

For the record, it has lost though, Edmunds stupidly picked the GS430 as "Japan's best sports sedan", immediately after calling it the least sporty of Japan's three entries. Automobile's choice was the A6. The fact that the M45 has won such an overwhelming number of comparisons and has gotten such praise across the board is amazing though. Its not "Japan's best car". Its the best car in the segment. Period.

merc1 · May 2005

The fact that the M45 has won such an overwhelming number of comparisons and has gotten such praise across the board is amazing though. Its not "Japan's best car". Its the best car in the segment. Period.

I would say its the best if you're looking for sport first because it hasn't won in cases where the editors were looking for more luxury. I think that Edmunds and Automobile were looking for more lux than sport. Despite as to what Edmunds says they were looking for.

M

lexusguy · May 2005

"I would say its the best if you're looking for sport first"

Yes I suppose thats true. Though the M45 is no IS300. There's still plenty of luxury to be had; I dont think its any worse than the 545i in that regard. Its just really nice to see at least one of Japan's big three taking on the competition in full force. Toyota and Honda have a history of taking timid steps in unknown markets, and it looks like Nissan's success is making them change their attitudes a bit. Honda especially, as I think Nissan's growth is putting a lot more pressure on Honda than Toyota.

suvguy2005 · May 2005

That is not true. If you read the Road and Track article you would have noticed that they state that the BMW was the sportiest and the Lexus the most luxurious. The Infiniti M45 was the best compromise between the two. Also keep in mind that all the comparisons so far have been with the "sport" model. So if you want a softer ride go with the "base" model.

merc1 · May 2005

Well that is only one article. That is true about the M45 splitting the difference there, but I doubt a base M is going to have the ride of a GS/E or a non-sport A6. Even the "base" M35 was on par with a 530i in the sport department according to that early comparo by MT. I seriously doubt that the base car is all that much softer. Also, the M interior seems more sport than luxury. Sure it has all the toys, but it didn't feel as much "luxury" as it did "sport", imo.

M

cstiles · May 2005

Just for the record, Japan's "Car of the Year" award went to the Honda Legend (aka Acura RL). It beat the Nissan Fuga, which is the JDM (lower HP) version of the M35/45.

Although some suggest that Honda is acting "timid" by only offering a V6 spec RL, I would suggest that it is being more strategic and prudent with its product offering in this particular class. It could have invested more $$ to offer multiple versions of the RL to better compete with the M, G, A6, 5-series, E, and STS, but would Acura sales be dramatically higher if they had done so? Perhaps, but relative to the additional tooling, marketing, and design costs, it's certainly possible that supporting V6/V8 versions of this car may have resulted in a lower net income after all the dust settles. I question whether that would have been the smarter business move, although it would have been perceived to be a bolder move. (I agree with Lexusguy that you certainly don't want to be classified as being "timid," although I don't agree that this applies to Acura at the moment.)

At the end of the day, I think it's more important to realize a higher net income from your operations, while also establishing and growing your brand as a potent benchmark within the lux perf category. Acura still has it work cut out to erase the memories of the previous RL and Legend. The true success of this new RL can only be quantified 3 years from now. It's too early to suggest that they are being "timid."

I disagree that the Automobile comparison valued luxury over performance. If you carefully read that article, it is clear that they rated the A6 4.2 the highest based on its power, driving dynamics, and some sort of nebulous sense of "cache" that they attach to this car (Mark Cincinnati can relate to that "cache," I'm sure.) They also ranked these cars based on the "base MSRPs," which is unrealistic when you can't buy any of these cars (except for the RL) comparably equipped for these listed "base" prices. They also critcized the RL for lacking "Veritas." What the hell is that anyway?

All of these articles have their inherent biases. I'm glad that they do, otherwise it would be utterly boring to read the same analysis over and over from one magazine to another. I also don't criticize the Edmunds review like so many others do....it's just a different take on cars that are closely matched in so many ways. Edmunds also said that their final results were razor thin close to one another.

Desperate GM has run a full page ad in today's Chicago Tribune showing their 8 different JD Power awards. This includes their Gold and Silver ranking manufacturing plants. As previously stated, the JD Power profit center is alive and well.

rich545 · May 2005

That's not true. If you look at the scoring on the last page, price was a factor. Also read the following from that article:

As a pure sports sedan, the BMW still takes top honors. It remains the true driver's car, delivering the tightest handling, the most direct feedback and the biggest smiles. But throw subjective factors like styling, ride and interior functionality into the equation, and the negatives end up chipping away at the positives. For those who aren't bothered by these things, the 545i is the easy choice. But for the three of us blasting through the desert on this test, those factors did matter and ended up tipping the scales in favor of the Infiniti M45.

So really the M45 ONLY beat it for subjective reasons. Not trying to take away from the M45. Sounds like a great car, but if you take price and styling out of the equation and focus on performance the writers clearly enjoyed the 545i more.

msu79gt82 · May 2005

I think Road and Track's "Rocking the establishment" review was the most interesting of the recent comparison tests. Price really wasnt a factor in this one, they took Infiniti's best, and BMW's best (short of the M5 of course), and came up with a winner...and it was the M45.

As rich545 points out above Road and Track "cheated." They awarded the M45 Sport ~9 points based on "price as tested" all the while testing a nearly stripped M45. After loading up the M45 to a comparable equipment level as the other two cars the M45's lead over the 545i almost goes away and I'd call it a statistical tie.

msu79gt82 · May 2005

So really the M45 ONLY beat it for subjective reasons. Not trying to take away from the M45. Sounds like a great car, but if you take price and styling out of the equation and focus on performance the writers clearly enjoyed the 545i more.

I agree with your comments regarding price points; however I must point out that styling plays a major part in one's enjoyment of a car. I can not conclude from anything they (or you) wrote that would indicate that the Road and Track Editor's "clearly enjoyed the 545i more". As I pointed out above, allowing for a price adjustment I'd say the comparison ended in a statistical tie (although the M still would have out-pointed the 545i as they indicated in the article).

hpowders · May 2005

If you look at the results on page 106 in Road and Track and nothing else you would swear that the 545 won this comparo. The 545 won 11 out of the 19 categories(almost 60%!). The M45 won only 5 categories. The GS430 won 3 categories.
I have never seen a comparo where one car wins in so many categories and comes in #2. :confuse:

msu79gt82 · May 2005

Although some suggest that Honda is acting "timid" by only offering a V6 spec RL, I would suggest that it is being more strategic and prudent with its product offering in this particular class.

Perhaps Acura was being prudent :confuse: But I do kow that the RL is overpriced and that dealers are not at all happy with sales figures. The RL has been heavily discounted since March, and there are many reports on various forums for below invoice pricing right now.

exalteddragon1 · May 2005

In the Car and driver comparo, they picked a $55,000 mark. Just enough to get an M45 with allmost the whole kitchen sink, but not enough to outfit a Mercedes/BMW/Cadillac with the goods. It would have taken just 5K more, but the results would have been very different.

I don't believe motorttrend reviews for a second. They are about as unbiased as NPR. When they want a car to win, they will structure the criteria for a car to win, case in point: they counted heavily on money for last years comparo were the G35 won, yet a little later they did the comparo again, when the Cadillac CTS had the new 3.6L and guess what? no G35, and the Crysler 300 (why was it even in there?) could have had a v8 for the as tested price of the CTS, so the Cadillac won.
I'm a cadillac fan, but why not test it against all of its competition?

At least this is for sure, the best comparison test is when the buyer goes aout and test drives the competition.

tayl0rd · May 2005

The RL has been heavily discounted since March, and there are many reports on various forums for below invoice pricing right now.

Got any links?

kyfdx · May 2005

Acura RL: Prices Paid

suvguy2005 · May 2005

If you look at the results on page 106 in Road and Track and nothing else you would swear that the 545 won this comparo. The 545 won 11 out of the 19 categories(almost 60%!). The M45 won only 5 categories. The GS430 won 3 categories.

You are correct but the M45 won its categories by a larger margin. The BMW's wins were not by very many points. It's not about how many categories you win but the total score. In tennis one can win far many more points and far more games but still lose the match. Ex. 6-0,6-0,7-6,7-6,7-6 = 30-21.

A quote from the article:

"Unlike the 545i and GS 430, which both lost categories in our scoring, the M45 Sport never finished outside the top 2. It was this consistency and its distinctive mix of luxury and performance that won out in the end."

drtravel · May 2005

bartalk wrote "Good point: the car mags are biased toward speed and performance, and their ratings reflect primarily that. That's probably why the GS300 has been pretty much neglected. Not blazing speed."

The GS300 has never been in a comparison test - it's always the GS430. Considering that 75-80% of all GSs sold will be the GS300 seems the car mags are not serving the majority of car buyers. I don't think Lexus is to upset about the omission. Compared to it's rivals the GS430 performed much better than the GS300 would. The GS350 will do better.

Still could see the AWD GS300, M35, 5-series and Audi in a comparo though.

hpowders · May 2005

The M45 "never finished outside the top 2." Yeah-there's a big deal. There were only 3 cars in the comparo!

tayl0rd · May 2005

Thanks, kyfdx. That was interesting reading. And I always thought/heard that Honda/Acura never makes deals like that. It would be interesting to see how they intend to sell unchanged for '06 RLs at MSRP when '05s are selling so low. I wonder how widespread some of those deals are.

msu79gt82 · May 2005

It would be interesting to see how they intend to sell unchanged for '06 RLs at MSRP when '05s are selling so low. I wonder how widespread some of those deals are.

Yep, I agree. FYI: I was quoted $44,900 in Houston about a month ago. I was at one time nearly 100% sold on the RL. However now I am leaning toward the M35. I am in no hurry and have not made a final decision.

tayl0rd · May 2005

Yeah, I wonder how all those RL guys that paid MSRP feel about being upside down in their cars so soon. :sick:

nebraskaguy · May 2005

Yeah, I wonder how all those RL guys that paid MSRP feel about being upside down in their cars so soon.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I feel just fine. I got top dollar for my trade in and paid MSRP. According to Edmunds, my 99RL is worth about $5,000 less now, than it was in October. So let's say I had waited and got a fantastic deal and paid only a little over invoice and received $5,000 less for my trade in. That means I would have ended up maybe $1,000 better off than my original deal. I've had seven months of pure driving joy with my RL and that is well worth the possible $1,000 extra it cost me.

kyfdx · May 2005

Any car you buy, with no money down... you will be upside down on for at least 2-3 years....

How far upside down might be another matter....

It wouldn't matter a lot to me... I don't trade that often and I rarely buy the "hot" car of the moment.. But, if I did, I would recognize that I'm paying a premium. You are either okay with that, or you aren't.. If you aren't, you shouldn't be buying that car..

As long as you are happy with the car you bought, that is what is most important.. I don't think too many people in the $50K range obsess over what they might have saved.. (I"m just guessing here.. out of my price range..lol).

regards,
kyfdx

nebraskaguy · May 2005

Any car you buy, with no money down... you will be upside down on for at least 2-3 years....

Well, I always put a lot down and pay it off in a very short time, so I'm not upside down.

I don't think too many people in the $50K range obsess over what they might have saved.

It's not so much what range our purchase is in, it's just that obsessing over what we might have saved serves no purpose. It's a done deal at that point.

proe · May 2005

However, Fuga won Car of the Year award by different group. I think Legend won the one that is voted by only 50 automobile journalists while Fuga won the one with Japan Automobile Research and Development or something like that, which it includes more people.

sergeym · May 2005

Note that it was 2004 BMW vs. 2006 Infiniti. Wait till 2006 545 (550?) shows up in 3 months. It will destroy all the competition.

hpowders · May 2005

Could be true but can you imagine what the monthly lease payment will be on the new 545-550?
The new 530i's monthly lease payment is already in the stratosphere.
Many people will lease the M45 because it is the better buy and they won't be giving up much in the way of performance-if anything, which remains to be seen. Remember, the 545 lost out to the M45 in the Road and Track comparo mainly on subjective ratings-ugly body, disfunctional interior,etc; in their opinion. Those opinions won't change with a more powerful engine in the new 545-550.

rich545 · May 2005

You have to read my comment a little better I think. When I said they clearly enjoyed it more, I meant they enjoyed driving it more. Clearly, they enjoyed looking at and sitting in the M better. Good for them. It's still just an opinion just like everything else. Their opinion on styling is no more valid than anyone else's. In fact, even their opinion on performance has aspects that are subjective. Right, the M would have still slightly out-pointed the 545 with price taken out of the equation. It wouldn't have though if styling wasn't considered. Let me make this very clear, I'm not saying that styling is NOT important. I'm saying that what people like in terms of styling varies so greatly that it's kind of a useless comparision. Hey, some people like Montecarlos. I happen to despise them. But my opinion on their styling should mean nothing to anyone that likes them because it's no more or less valid.

rich545 · May 2005

That's a very good point. Hell, part of the reason the M even exists is because Infiniti is trying to compete with BMW. So we're still left with a situation where BMW led the way with their car, and a Japanese car company essentially copied a lot about it, and to give them some credit, improved a lot about it as well. It's a lot easier to follow than to lead in my opinion. I don't know if the 550 will destroy the competition because performance-wise the extra horses do very little (it's .01 seconds faster than the 545 0-60), and it's going to look the same. But BMW will continue to improve the car. There's no doubt about that.

sergeym · May 2005

Lease payment depends on many factors. 2 month ago when I was getting a new car and had to make a choice between 545 and M45 the Bimmer was about $20/month cheaper than M45 with the same (similar) equipment. I added $30/month for M45 maintenance and decided to go with the BMW. 2006s may not have 0.001 MF but should have better residuals. Unless M will sell with large discounts BMW may still be cheaper or at least comparable.

hpowders · May 2005

That's the "old 545." But when the new one comes out, BMW will do with the new 545/550, just what it did with the new 530i and new 3 series. Raise the money factor to about .00295(7.08% interest) and barely move off MSRP. Heck the new 330i will be close to if not above $700 per month on a 36k, 36 month lease. Imagine what the new 545/550 lease payment will be. A $43,000 vehicle vs a $60,000 vehicle. I'm guessing close to $1000 per month.

jjacura · May 2005

I'm not elated that the RL price has dropped this far off msrp. Frankly I really am surprised this happened. I love the car and it is paid for, but I am not going to say everything is peachy keen and defend the reality of that price drop. The best thing that happened though was that I found a private buyer for my TL and he paid several M more than the dealer offered me on the trade.

bw45sport · May 2005

So really the M45 ONLY beat it for subjective reasons.

That doesn't really seem to me to be true either. If you look at their final ratings, the M actually does win the Performance quotient of the rating by their numbers as well.

While I understand the desire to express the "feel" of the car as well as raw numbers, I still find it interesting in reviews such as these that while the numbers indicate a better braking setup on the M the drivers still rate the brakes higher on the subjective scale. The article also noted that while the M "lost" the slalom test this time, the driver of the M had achieved higher numbers in a previous test of the M, a number that would have been highest in the slalom ratings.

boomguy · May 2005

can anyone here give me some insight on leasing?

jjacura · May 2005

Contact Mark Cincinnati for all around lease insight....(as he has spent much time evaluating and has recently leased a BMW and an Infiniti)

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