Luxury Performance Sedans

chef_jmr · June 2005

Meatloaf.

hpowders · June 2005

I almost closed a deal on a GS 430 lease but divine providence guided my eyes to the small print in the GS brochure. Must replace brake pads at 20,000 miles or less. Must replace 18" run flats at 15,000 miles or less. Those tires cost around $300 or so. For a 3 year lease that's at least $2400 and quite possibly $3600.
No thanks.
Sorry to interrupt all the venom spewing.

cstiles · June 2005

Yah, but are your neighbors Republicans or Democrats????? :P

And what's their take on i-Drive????????? :surprise:

This week on The Twilight Zone......"Fred Smith woke up this morning in a stupor, only to realize that EVERYONE on his street owned a high end BMW. Inexplicably, just yesterday they all owned beige-colored Yugos.....Parental Discretion Advised"

hpowders · June 2005

I recently spoke to a lady who owns a 2004 BMW 530i. I asked her if she had any trouble with the iDrive. She said to me, "What's that?"

markcincinnati · June 2005

I went to the grand unveiling of the new BMW 3 series yesterday at the local BMW store (one of two in our fair city).

I was "pretty much" impressed with the new 330i -- (and with the availability of a stick and a lot of "high zoot" stuff that one normally associates with the LPS cars and the fact that the new 3 "seems" bigger than the old one, well this car might deserve an honorable mention here in LPS land -- and it sure is better looking than the "5" IMHO.)

I wonder if my neighbors would even care, though?

I haven't driven the new 3 but sitting behind the wheel of one just parked there, I think BMW may have made a very smart move in not Bang-l-izing this little dude too much.

Anyone on this fine town hall driven the new 330 yet?

cmybimmergo · June 2005

Nah. Just means I have a fast car that I like to drive (fast).

cmybimmergo · June 2005

jjacura, I hope you didn't think I meant you personally when I said if you don't like it, that's YOUR problem. That was a generic your, meaning if someone doesn't like my car, that's his problem, not mine.

newaudilover · June 2005

Why would you take the time to read anything on this board if you do not care what others think of your vehicles? They obviously mean nothing to you. Why would you subject everybody else to your opinions on this board if you do not want them to see your point of view??????

If your really don't care, then don't comment, and let the rest of us have fun discussing our views and opinions. That is the whole idea of the message board.

warthog · June 2005

I think you miss the point. One can learn facts from others. One can also learn opinions from others and make what one wishes from them. That's different from changing one's opinion or choice of purchase to suit other folks' views.

chef_jmr · June 2005

Salty mashed potatoes... ditto warthog's response.

I saw a 5-series today on the road, and all I thought about was how hot the blond lady was driving it. I don't think she cared.

hpowders · June 2005

Yeah. The brakes are touchy beyond belief. I dare you to find the fuel gauge on that dash.
The suspension felt quite springy. I prefer my 2002 325i.

cdnpinhead · June 2005

several are protesting too much.

While it's clear I could give a rip less what anyone else thinks of what I drive (Lincoln LS V6), I've gradually "grown" away from my "I'd never own one of those yuppie-scum BMW's" point of view, circa 2000.

I used to suffer from the reverse-snob point of view which essentially posits that so many people who own X are status-seeking morons that I don't want to be associated with them through it. I was clearly caring too much about what others thought. Most of the vehicles discussed here are worthy, either for pure driving pleasure, or from a "who thinks I'm swell because I'm wearing it" point of view.

Now I'm older. Don't know if I'm any wiser, but at least I'm willing to drive just about anything, so long as it has a manual transmission, excellent handling, and certain other features I care about (not many, but often hard to find).

Fun to watch what happens when the rocks are turned over.

lexusguy · June 2005

"Must replace 18" run flats at 15,000 miles or less."

Thats pretty common these days. We've had this discussion at length before, if long treadlife is what you're after, a hi-po sports sedan is not the car for you. You arent going to find UHP tires on a competing vehicle that can magically last 60K miles.

kdshapiro · June 2005

There are plenty of people who have driven the new 330. Head on over to this forum to see what people are buying, driving and saying:

dl7265, "BMW 3-series 2006+" #3163, 6 Jun 2005 6:13 pm

hpowders · June 2005

As long as there is a possibility that I can get more than 15k on a set of tires, I am okay with it.
Looks like the GS 430 for me. My first Lexus.

jjacura · June 2005

No problem "See My BMW Go". I understood what you meant.

I'm still chuckling over Rich's response. :shades:

cmybimmergo · June 2005

I dare you to find the fuel gauge on that dash.

It's a(n IQ) test.

markcincinnati · June 2005

My inquiry was to the posters here on the LPS TH. The lines seem to me to becoming blurred with respect to what is or is not an LPS. The new 3, to cite one example, does seem to be a performance sedan with plenty of luxury touches.

I am not wanting this TH to be all inclusive -- however, I do note that several (many?) of us do post all over. It is THIS website that is the cause (note I did not say blame) of both my wife's and my own venturing out of the Audi showroom.

My wife is soooo pleased with her new X3 that she says, now, she almost doesn't miss her TT anymore; and as much as she did like the new A4 3.2, she feels she got so much more with the BMW than with the Audi.

I too am optimistic that my selection of the M35X over the Audi (and some other possible contenders) was "the right thing to do." But I will only be able to speak with certainty once my car arrives and I have had a chance to experience it fully.

Meanwhile, I continue to believe we are perhaps in the best time ever to be looking for a car -- even the new Hyundai has taken a big move up (at least the marketing has, that's for sure.)

The lines continue to blur, refocus and blur again as to what really can be considered an LPS -- that, for the moment, is my opinion and I'm stickin' to it.

Considering the sales numbers posted demonstrate that the STS handily outsells the A6 and the RL (for instance) I do find it "telling" that there are virtually no STS AWD posters (for one would imagine they would be both well heeled and the most "enthusiastic" of "car people") participating in this forum. Yet we clearly list the sales figures dutifully here each month for "the usual suspects."

I know I'd be drummed out of the TH if I made my wife's experiences with her new X3 a regular feature of my comments here on the LPS board, but -- if I'm lyin' I'm dyin' -- the X3 (at least configured as she has hers) seems more like it would be at home here on this forum than over on the X3 forum.

End of random thoughts.

Main point: this has been a tremendously educational and entertaining web spot.

kyfdx · June 2005

So how was the event at The BMW Store? I had planned to go, but came down with a virus of some sort and was couch-bound all day...

Did they offer test-drives?

regards,
kyfdx

jjacura · June 2005

" the X3 (at least configured as she has hers) seems more like it would be at home here on this forum than over on the X3 forum."---Mark Cincy--

I for one have no problem with you talking about this car in this forum. (Can someone tell us who selects the 6 cars for this LPS forum and outline the criteria... :confuse: )

qbrozen · June 2005

X3 is not a car, much less a sedan.

jjacura · June 2005

You are correct sir.....and SUV's have never been discussed here before....er....ah...Where's Pat?

hpowders · June 2005

Exactly. Please stick to the parameters.

pat · June 2005

We can only have six cars listed at the top. We have juggled them around from time to time based on what the current topic has been. Unless I have really been sleeping (possible!!), they still pretty much represent our main themes except maybe the 5-Series?

We are on the Sedans board so at least as far as the main topics go, we should generally stick to sedans. However, I don't mind an occasional diversion to a coupe or an SUV, but I agree we shouldn't let non-sedans become a dominant theme.

Make sense?

markcincinnati · June 2005

No test drives.

About 10 new BMW 3's (and of course all the other Bimmers, too).

I am often wrong, but never uncertain

but it seems to me that the new 3 series IS like everyone else movin' on up.

OK, so let me get this straight, this is the LPS forum -- and every month someone dutifully reports on this board the sales of what I suspect most would agree are Premium Sport/Lux (a.k.a., performance) Sedans. The STS is on this list. All the car magazines seem keen to lump: Acura's RL, Audi's A6, BMW's 5, Cadillac's STS, Infiniti's M, Lexus GS, Mercedes E and even Jaguar in this LPS group. I don't recall anyone posting Jaguar's sales but the rest of these usual suspects are always on the list as I recall. The list, one would presume, contains 8 cars; which I gather from our host would not be an issue to discuss.

I am not urging us to make this a free for all discussion -- yet, I do wonder why there are so many STS's sold but so few posters (could it be the LPS restriction keeps them away?)

Anyway, I have no intention of suggesting this board should accept the X3 as a regular topic here. I am simply suggesting that what once seemed to be a rare and expensive car (Premium) class now has potentially many more competitors that can be had with much of the same content that used to be more or less exclusive to the Premium (or perhaps LPS) cars.

Actually I find it somewhat arbitrary that the Chrysler 300C AWD (at some $42,000+) is not worth at least an honorable mention as this class' "cousin."

The cars from the bottom classes keep up the class creep and seem to be doing such a good job at it they are almost literally becoming class clones.

Check out the new Car and Driver for an interesting take on the new Toyota Avalon, for Pete's sake. They've come a long way -- baby!

kyfdx · June 2005

No test drives

Looks like I didn't miss much, then..

lexusguy · June 2005

Cars like the 3 are getting bigger and nicer, but as long as the 5 and 7 continue to exist, the 3 will remain "entry luxury" and Edmunds already has a forum devoted to such cars. There was one guy who went with an STS in the "2006+ M" forum...but only because of MASSIVE discounts on the car.

"Comparing all brands in May, Mini spent the least, $30 per vehicle sold, while Scion spent only $91 and Porsche spent just $269 per vehicle sold. At the other end of the spectrum, Cadillac was the biggest spender at $6,767 per vehicle sold"

Even with new (and fairly well reviewed) vehicles such as the SRX and STS, its obvious Cadillac just cant get people to actually buy unless they give them away.

nmdriver · June 2005

"Has anyone in this fine town hall driven the new 330 yet?"

I test drove several 330s and 530's over a pretty demanding route. My favorite: a straight-up 330i Sport: manual, no iDrive, no variable ratio steering. Creamy engine and transmission. Remarkably quiet. Seats were the best of any of the Bimmers. Huge trunk for its size.
I cannot see why I would want a 5 series. Even less can I see why anyone would want an A4 (except for the very real security of AWD).
However, the 3, as equipped, listed for over $41K. At this price I am getting awfully close to a comparably-equipped M35x.
I am going to wait to drive the AWD 330 this fall before deciding what to do. (The AWD 330 has smaller tires and more ground clearance than the RWD models, so I am not expecting it to be as sporting as the RWD Sport. We will see.)

jimbres · June 2005

My wife has started shopping for a replacement for her 99 Lexus ES 300. I suggested that she look at the Acura RL, the Lexus GS 300 AWD & the Infiniti M35x, figuring that she'd probably fall for the GS. (She's been very happy with her ES.) Partly because she has more time for this stuff - she's retired & I'm not - & partly because I didn't want to influence her thinking - this will be her car, after all - I did not accompany her.

Well, it's clear that the GS will certainly not be her next car. She was put off by the small trunk & poor rear visibility & she dropped the Lexus from further consideration. As far as the RL & the M35x are concerned, she found them to be, more or less, equally good & equally bad. She praised both cars for their excellent driving dynamics but criticized both for what she considered to be their needlessly elaborate controls. (She does not share my love of gadgetry.)

At this stage of the process, the leading candidate is...the G35x. The Infiniti sales rep, sensing my wife's coolness to the M, suggested the G, equipped with the Premium Package, as an alternative. My wife liked the G's straightforward instrument panel & also its smaller overall size. This turn of events doesn't thrill me. I'd prefer either the M or the RL to the G. For one thing, I do like gadgets, & I've heard that the nav offered on the G is not as good as the M's or the RL's nav systems. I also suspect that the larger cars would be more comfortable & thus better suited to long-distance vacation driving.

We keep our cars for a long time, so we want to get this right. Whatever she chooses will be her daily driver for at least 6 years, after which it will serve for 6+ years as my railroad station car. (I can't wait to replace my 92 Taurus with the ES.) Has anyone else shopped the M against the G? What is your perspective on this?

richcream · June 2005

I considered going for a G35x. After experiencing the M35x, however, it just was not an option.

I was given a G35 sedan (RWD) loaner for a day (while I was getting the spoiler, splashguards, and tints applied to my M35x) and the G is a fine car. It's noticeably quicker than the M35x, due to it's lighter weight, and it handles great. It's just not in the same league as the M.

Had I never tested the M, the G would have been a fine choice.

markcincinnati · June 2005

My wife does not like gadgets either. Her new BMW X3 has front and rear parktronic, sat radio, bluetooth for her built in/removable phone, cruise control, servotronic, sat navigation, articulating headlights and climate control.

She has, until the BMW, never used cruise control -- never ever even used buttons on the steering wheel to change radio stations, let alone had all the toys her new ride has. Now, she gets into the car and synchs her bluetooth (this is fundamentally automatic, but sometimes a push of a button is required), responds to the lawyer screen on her sat nav display that automatically pops up in the dash and has even started using both the front parktronic to park in the garage and the cruise control.

All this from a woman who swears she would have preferred non power windows (although she does like heated seats and airconditioning, at the appropriate times).

In one month she has become accustomed to these creature comforts and although she still calls them some less than flattering name, she actually likes them and believes they are an improvement over her last 3 Audi TT's (much more spartan in this regard, for sure.)

We got a new flat screen TV for our kitchen cooking island and even if she is standing two feet from the TV she now picks up the remote to increase the volume or turn it on or off, etc.

I accused my wife of being technology challenged and she seemed to relish this description -- she insists on ONLY stick shift cars too -- which is part of the reason we went with the X3.

The point? Well, what once were vices are now habits.

If it can be thus with/for my 50 year old wife -- well, anyone can change.

Perhaps this is much ado about nuttin'.

The M35X has about the best darn voice control system I've ever used, perhaps that will convice her. She probably didn't get a chance to fully explore all the stuff that the M35X can do with relative simplicity. It make look like a space ship cockpit at first, but. . .well, you decide (or better said, help her by informing her about the technology).

lexusguy · June 2005

How about an LS430? As an ES driver, clearly "driving" was not her top priority. The LS has plenty of advanced functions, but at the same time is typically Lexus and very simple to use. There's plenty of space both in the cabin and in the trunk, and visibility is not a problem. With the air suspension or especially the "euro-sport" suspension, the LS is also more fun to drive than the ES. Also, as a long distance cruiser, the LS430 is unmatched by any car.

kdshapiro · June 2005

"the LS430 is unmatched by any car."

Except the 7-series, which is a heck a lot more fun to drive.

ksccts · June 2005

True, true, true! :shades: The Lexus has no soul!

nebraskaguy · June 2005

The point? Well, what once were vices are now habits.

If it can be thus with/for my 50 year old wife -- well, anyone can change.

Thanks for your comments. That's been one of my pet peeves about several of these forums. People dismiss out of hand, some of the technology on the RL as unnecessary or useless because they've never used them - and can simply not imagine how they would ever be of use to them. A friend of mine never even thought about getting a nav system until he experienced my RL. Now, he wouldn't consider a car without one. My brother-in-law made fun of me for insisting on buying cars with power windows (before they became so common), then had a rental car for a week that had them. His next car had power windows.

I don't use all the gadgets on the RL, but I appreciate and extensively use much of it.

markcincinnati · June 2005

WE B lovin' most of the gadgets and can't wait to see what is up their sleeves next! (from any mfgr).

bondguy1 · June 2005

I went over to the M35 board of problems. It seems that one more obvious overlooked feature on most German cars is the top notch paint finish. I having owned many Japanese cars over the years including Lexus have noticed that Japanese paint jobs although good always have a lot of orange peel in finish. They usually look good at beginning but almost always get spider webbed soon after, no matter how well you take care of them. I have seen and owned a three year old Audi that I just turned in. The paint on that car (Brilliant Black) was as nice as the day I got it. Maybe because it was always kept in the gargage or maybe it's because Mercedes, BMW and Audi have a much better clearcoat than their Japanese counterparts. I know that most of the G35 coupes on the road I see have that big bumper on the back which always tends to look very dull. Now, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that German cars don't have problems too. But, aside from mechanical problems, which German cars are more prone to than Japanese....I even had a problem with my 3 week old Audi...simple problem but it was fixed. I'm talking about fit and finish---I don't think there is any Japanese or any other country that can compete with the Germans for fit and finish quality. I was even looking at a Bentley Coupe the other day on the road...what a beautiful finish...and realized that Bentley is owned by Volkswagen...thus, the beautiful finish. By the way, a good polish for dark cars is "Liquid Glass" car prep and polish. I have used it for years and it's great!

jimbres · June 2005

My smart, articulate, well-educated, well-traveled & well-read wife is, sad to say, something of a technophobe. AFAIK, she has never used an ATM & she has certainly never programmed a VCR. She has mastered (barely) the TV remote control & she can do basic computer stuff (e-mail, web browsing, the occasional Word document), but she won't willingly go much beyond that.

(She can drive a stick & drive it well. In fact, she drove nothing but stick cars for more
than 15 years. But a fondness for mastering new gadgets doesn't follow from that,
unfortunately.)

Nonetheless, she admits that she has a perfectly rotten sense of direction & she agrees that her next car should come equipped with nav. I would like to see her choose either the M35x or the RL. Both of these cars are superb & I believe that she could master & quickly come to like either one.

Based on what she told me about her experience at the Infiniti store (Competition Infiniti
in Smithtown, LI), I'm inclined to suspect that her sales rep might be new to this game &
that she might have intimidated him. (Retired teachers can do that to some young guys.) A more experienced sales pro might have used her objections to the M as an opportunity to educate her about the car's many virtues, but this fellow took the easy way out & steered her toward the G. I agree with richcream: the M is the better car & is worth the higher cost.

So, we do not yet have a winner. We have plenty of time; I want to act before the return of
cold weather because I don't think that the above-mentioned Ford Taurus, purchased new in 1992, will survive 1 more winter. But that gives us 6 months.

I've suggested to my wife that she look at BMW & Mercedes to broaden her perspective,
although I'd prefer that we not have another German car in the family. (My weekend pleasure machine is an '01 BMW 330i.) But I also figure that looking at lots of cars now reduces the likelihood of buyer's remorse later on.

jimbres · June 2005

Re your suggestion that my wife consider the LS 430: great minds think alike. I agree with you that the LS is both user-friendly & a superb highway cruiser, & I mentioned it to my wife a few weeks ago. As it happens, a friend of hers drives a late-model LS & my wife has been a front-seat passenger. Her evaluation of the car: magnificent but far too large to be her daily driver. Her tone of voice made it clear that I should not bring it up again.

Thanks anyway. My wife's views not withstanding, I've always had a high regard for the LS.

jjacura · June 2005

"If it can be thus with/for my 50 year old wife -- well, anyone can change."

I was thinking about my wife who is a little technology challenged but is gradually starting to go on our computer more often and is calling on me less often to set up our DVR, DVD player, or occasional VCR use, however when it comes to our cars.....she does fine with her Civic EX, loves it, is extremely comfortable any where on the road with it, has never even been written a ticket. However when it comes to MY car which I really am not hoarding the use of and would welcome her to get behind the wheel at anytime....WELL THAT'S ANOTHER STORY. She has driven the RL a couple of times with me next to her but I couldn't get her to take it on her own to save her soul. Could it be that she's afraid to put in that first ding? I've told her whatever happens happens...I'm OK with it all! She won't do it! (I'm wondering how many of you experience this.)

lexusguy · June 2005

For a woman not interested in complex technology, the 7 series is pretty much the worst car I can think of to suggest. You'll notice I said "as a long distance cruiser" a qualifier meaning that I dont think the LS can beat a 7 in the curves. When it comes to multiple hours on the highway though, there's not another car in the world I'd rather be in. C&D agrees with me. In their last big lux sedan comparison test, a 745i managed to beat an S430, A8, and Phaeton, but came in 3rd, losing to both Jaguar and Lexus. "The Lexus ride is unmatched in this group." I agree 100%.

jimbres, from what you describe your wife to be like, I think MB or BMW would be a bad idea if she wants NAV in her car. My wife is somewhat similar when it comes to technology (I've had to program "press this button to watch a DVD movie" macro buttons into my remote in order for her to have any hope of actually operating the home theater on her own). The ML320 was one of the cars we compared to the RX300. Neither she nor I were impressed with the COMAND system. If she's considering the G, what about the TL? Or a new ES330?

varix · June 2005

I've had an M35x with the premium pkg for about 2 weeks now (purchased in large part due to comments on this board, thank you) and I thought my technophobic wife would hate it. She drives a 1999 Land Cruiser (120K miles), which they'll pry from her one day, that has very little tech stuff except for a transmission/drive system I've yet to master. That said, when she drove my Infiniti she really loved the back up camera, the keyless entry (which I think women appreciate more than men who carry keys in pockets not purses) and the nav system makes finding those out of town soccer games easy for her. Had to spend a few hundred bucks buying a Garmin for her the Land Cruiser as she is now wedded to a nav system. I agree that technology can seem superfluous until you really use it, then it becomes vital. I'll never drive a car again without a nav system..BTW we both like the layout of the M35's dash; having the controls face up and staring at you like and ATM seems intuitively better than facing forward and away from the drivers face as in most cars. The dash actually was a huge selling point on the M35X for me, to each their own...

merc1 · June 2005

You'll notice I said "as a long distance cruiser" a qualifier meaning that I dont think the LS can beat a 7 in the curves. When it comes to multiple hours on the highway though, there's not another car in the world I'd rather be in.

Maybe as far as what you'd want to be in, but the S-Class wrote the book on such cross continent travel and it gives the same smooth ride with better handling a more connected feel than a LS430. Even CR (which some live by) stated that S-Class had a better ride and ride/handling combination. The S430 in the C&D comparo was a sport model with ABC, not the best riding S combo which is the base model.

M

lexusguy · June 2005

Well, the other reason I drive an LS is the same reason CR rates it as a "top pick", while the S-class cant even manage a "recommended" tag. No automaker has unbreakable cars, but the LS is about as close as you can get. It was a particularly fitting metaphor for the state of M-B when the CEO's own S-class couldn't find its way around Stuttgart.

merc1 · June 2005

Well of course I knew reliability would come back up, but my point was mainly about ride comfort.

M

cruller001 · June 2005

I read somewhere Jurgen Schrempf's car was stolen and could not be traced even using the car's GPS locator. Sorry state of affairs indeed!

rich545 · June 2005

Question: Why do you think MB or BMW would be bad if she wanted NAV? The ML is newly redesigned, and the NAV system it uses is a single DVD for the entire country. I know this because my wife is about to buy one, and I was in the MB dealership last week. I assume all of their cars will be getting the new NAV system. I've also never heard complaints about BMW's NAV system. Yes, iDrive has taken plenty of heat, but not the NAV system. I guess it just shows how differently we see cars though. I test drove the RX300, and there ain't no way I'd pick it over the ML. Especially the new one.

jimbres · June 2005

You mentioned the Acura TL & the ES 330 as possibilities. I've poisoned my wife's thinking about the ES by pointing out that it is nearly at the end of its styling cycle & that an all-new version will hit the streets not much more than a year from now. In truth, the current ES is reputedly even more of a yawn than the previous generation (1997-2001) & I'd rather not get one.

The TL has a much better shot at a spot in our driveway, but my wife has reservations about its styling.

jimbres · June 2005

For me, the issue is one of reliability as opposed to design. I'm just not confident that the German manufacturers are as good as the Japanese at integrating sophisticated electronic systems into automobiles. IMHO, the Japanese are better at this stuff. (I haven't forgotten something that I read in Forbes or Business Week a couple of years ago: "The Germans may build the best cars in the world but the Japanese build the world's best car factories.") I might be inclined to take a chance on a German brand if we leased our cars, but we don't; we buy 'em & use 'em up.

Admittedly, my 4-year-old 330i has been trouble-free, but it doesn't have nav or, for that matter, an automatic transmission.

It's too bad, really. I've driven an E-class MB on several occasions & have thoroughly enjoyed it. Moreover, the latest E is, in my eyes, the best-looking car in its class. But the thought of taking off for a holiday weekend in a nav-equipped MB gives me the willies.

scottjohnson · June 2005

I haven't compared it to the M35, but on my new RL the paint is one of the strengths. The finish on mine has no orange peel at all. I don't know if the hand sanding they do has something to do with it but once I got it waxed it is amazing to look at. I'm betting it is at least on par with anything in the class.

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