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I hope and pray for this engine to be given the Audi bi-turbo treatment -- but I can't imagine Audi doing this, for if this engine were blown (even mildly) it would surely get to or exceed 300HP and a like amount of torque. The torque, typical of turbos, would be at full boil about 2,000 RPM (with imperceptible lag) and all other things being the same would be quicker than the V8.
Maybe Audi will do this -- my assumption is they won't since having the V8 as the more costly "middle" performer could hurt V8 sales.
The grand scheme appears to be to have the engines and cars perform on a scale that basically is represented by the price (like BMW). I would imagine a 3.2T would be quicker than the 4.2 -- I would think that would not be desirable.
I've been wrong before.
I hope I am this time, too.
Isnt that exactly what Audi did last time with the A6 2.7T? Especially the S-line version, which was definitely faster than the 4.2.
It is a very interesting marketing idea, and maybe not a good one. For example, I think the Avalon is going to hurt Lexus sales.
Avalon has been a caprice & crown victoria competitor in the distant past (i don't know about recent) and i think the audience was largely skewed towards seniors. IF it is still the same, then there's an overlap coming about between avalon's and lexus, so a more powerful toyota than a lexus is going to be bad.
The Avalon was a Buick and Crown Vic competitor in the past, but the new one isnt, especially the "sport version". Check out C&D or Edmunds comparison tests. The Avalon destroyed the Buick LaCrosse, and even beat the Nissan Maxima and Chrysler 300. Buick definitely wont have anything like the upcoming 500hp Lexus supercar.
That said, I think the Avalon may step on the ES330's toes a little, at least for people who are willing to live without the Lexus ownership experience. Toyota dealers arent exactly fun places to be. The 2007 ES should move the car further upmarket from the Avalon.
The A6 2.7T, way before S-Line could publish a 0-60 time of 6.0 seconds, the V8, 6.7. The S-Line only made things worse in that regard.
However, the A6 4.2 had some visual queues that the 2.7T lacked (it looked more muscular.)
The new A6 3.2 and 4.2 if debadged could not be told apart from each other, however. If the 3.2T came out and nothing was done to differentiate the V8, why would anyone even bother with the V8 if they wanted performance?
Make mine an A6 3.2T S-Line, please.
I enjoyed my two Audi A6 4.2's -- but it did not go unnoticed that the 2.7T was the quicker of the two. But, I could tell the two apart.
Not so with the new A6's -- they all have the same "look" regardless of what is under the hood.
It appears that $2,000 is the "going" price for a NAV system when the NAV is available as an option.
NAV is a $2,000 option on the M35/45 and the GS300.
The price of the NAV system was also $2,000 for the 2003 Infiniti G35 and the 2004 Acura TL.
With the way the prices for electronics keep dropping...it appears...the price for the NAV systems should be dropping.
The house always wins.
Well, not always -- GM and Ford aren't exactly setting the world on fire, in terms of profitibility..
GS350: 315 ps = 311 hp
Of course, the GS430 has more torque, but it's interesting that the GS350 has more hp nontheless.
http://lexus.jp/models/gs/performance/powerunit.html
Note: 1 pferdestarke (ps) = 0.9863201 horsepower
At the local Infiniti dealership, there are lots of M's with the Journey package (most of them are M35's). There are a few M45's with the technology package, but even if the number is 2/3'ds of the M45's, there ARE fewer 45's than 35's and so on. If you want to get a car with the navi, it is (at this time) pretty clear that you are probably not too concerned if the option is $1,000 or $2,000.
At the Audi dealership, there are a few A4's and A6's IN inventory with navi (all the A8's have them, of course.) My salesperson says that most of the new cars he sells (the dealership averages about 50 per month) do NOT have this feature (which makes sense since most of the cars are sold from inventory and at this point in time "parktronic" is much more likely to be in demand than navi.)
To a certain extent this is a supply and demand issue and to a lesser extent, I'm assuming, this is a cost issue.
"What once were vices are now virtues" as the song goes. When navi is considered as "pedestrian" as a CD changer or heated seats or ABS/stability control, the price will plummet.
Who knows they may soon GIVE the navi away -- essentially -- in order to get you to pay for a "real time" subscription (like sat radio, On*star, etc.)
Navi and voice command are two toys that -- have become "necessities" as far as I'm concerned -- and pushbutton start, despite the fact that I bought it -- isn't worth $750. If voice command is $350, then pushbutton start/stop is worth about $250.
I am slowly getting used to voice commands, but I might rate it as equivalent to the push-button start and key-fob that you never need to handle. I think its best use is for the phone book.
I think perhaps in a way they have. Navi was a $2200 option in my old '01 MDX; now its a much better and improved system for "only" $2000.
In many cases, opting for a Nav system meant you used to have to give up features as well. In a '98-'00 Lexus, getting Nav meant you could not get the Nackamichi stereo. In the old 3 series, you got stuck with a lousy tape deck.
I have grown very fond of the Intelligent Key on my FX35. To me its a very nice addition to any LPS vehicle. It does take some getting used to, however the learning (or is that "conditioning") curve is short. The only issue I have with the system is one of our cars has it ('04 FX35) and the other doesn't ('04 MDX). You really do get conditioned to having it and forget to get they keys out when in the other car. Usually in the MDX I sit and reach for the "button" and then take the keys out of my pocket.
My navigation system was MSRP $1500, my wife's $1800. It HAS, at least in these two instances -- apparently -- come down.
I had so little time behind the wheel of the M35X, that I got only to use the voice command to change the radio stations. In my A6 it has "intelligent" phone commands for dialing. Well, they are a heck of a lot better than my last couple of Audis which had you speaking one number, waiting for the computer to respond in kind, until you got to the end. If you went too fast the computer would command you to go "slower" -- now, I just say, "dial number 555-1212" and there it goes.
I command "CD" then I say "Play Cold Play" and the new X&Y CD fires up; I say "Radio" and then "Play Jazz Cafe," etc etc etc.
Now, perhaps part of the reason I like the voice command so much and am convinced it is a necessity, is that there are no fewer than 42 buttons, dials and knobs on the console and dash board -- not including the view screen, overhead buttons for lights and garage doors nor the tach, speedo and the secondary view screen (which is further sub-divided into 4 more little screens) between the tach and speedo. And, then there's the mirror button, the outside mirror control, the power window switches, power seat switches and three stalks on the steering column.
If I had a "normal" dash board with a couple of controls for the heating and air conditioning, well perhaps the voice command would be more of a toy.
Try going into a large unfamiliar eastern US city, in the rain, when the sports complex du jour lets out -- plus tolls and tunnels and thank god for sat nav, auto lights and wipers, AWD and voice command to somewhat allow you to keep your eyes on the road, all while you are somewhat attempting to take the edge off by listening to Sirius or that new Coldplay album.
Now that the voice stuff has gotten THIS good (which is a huge improvement over the past 5 years), it really makes me want a whole bunch more stuff to be controlled by voice. "Temperature: 68 Auto" "Driver's Seat warmer: level 3" etc.
No longer do I wish to be "beamed up," no no no, I wish to be "plugged in" (just like Keanu) -- take the red pill.
"You are now interfaced with the car's matrix, Neo."
It must be the heat. (100F in River City) :shades:
Back when Acura introduced the Nav on the 96RL as an option, they put it as a $2200 option. That was a very limited functionality NAV. At that same time, Garmin and others had hand held NAV's in that same price range. With the 99TL, Acura really brought the NAV into the mainstream and if I remember, almost 35% of their vehicles were coming out with NAV's on them ($2000 option). By 2002 the NAV was into Honda world with the Ody being the first to get it. At this point in time, i.e. 2005, NAV is all over the Honda and Acura map. They have significant volumes. If you look at hand held NAV's they are down into the $700s for a decent pad, so I think the car company has apparently huge margins on the NAV. What is changing is the cost of software. I remember the 98RL's NAV software CD (back then it was on a CD) was $95. Eventually the price climbed up. Right now I think most Acura & Honda software DVD's cost about $190, give or take a few bucks. The content on the DVD has increased astronomically. I would not blink an eye to fork out a couple of hundred bucks every couple of years for a power packed NAV DVD, if I had a honda or acura product in my garage. I personally rate their system as tops in the affordable mainstream or luxury brands. Their content, touch screens, layout and voice activated gizmos are simply top of the line. It sux that the cars that I acctually own don't have any comparable product. In fact however much I'd love to have a NAV in the 3 convertible, I've no clue where in the hell they'll fit it in, i've barely got space to pack myself in there....
anyways, the way I see it, NAV is too mainstream to be expensive anymore. I have a similar story on both bluetooth and satellite radio, but that's for another day.
I just had to mention this because somebody asked me recently what I consider my best job to date. It was back in 1993-95 when I worked as a lead programmer at a little company in south jersey, where they created and deployed the whole EZPass thingie... i look back and think, i did do something that has had an impact on a lot of people's lives (good or bad....) life has moved on so much for me... NAV, EZPass... gizmos shizmos.... lets get back to makin moolah :P
ksso
I've loved my navi ever since I bought my 99 RL and now my 05 RL and have often considered it a "necessity". However, yesterday it was vital. I had to go to an address in NE Washington - an area I've rarely been to (and which has some neighborhoods I wouldn't want to accidentally go through). The Mapquest directions were two pages long to go 3 1/2 miles due to all the one-way streets and places with no-left turns. I can't imagine where I'd have ended up if I hadn't had my navi! However, my navi took me there with no problem. At that point, it was worth a lot of money.
I have put into my nav system my office and my house (and several other points of frequent need to get to "from here" or get from "to there.")
I find myself in an unfamiliar part of town or needing to avoid the clog and I say "navigation" the Navi lady says "Navigation" -- I say "Navigate to Office."
And my default is "fast" -- if that doesn't work, I dial in "short" and or "avoid freeways" and the Nav lady dutifully routes me outta here!
My new Nav lady is very stern, however. When I get into the 2003 TT, the Audi Nav lady says, "please turn left in 300 feet." The 2005 Audi lady says "Now turn left!" No please, no persuasion, just "do it!"
I'll have to see how the BMW Nav lady speaks, but I believe she is more stern than the 2003 version, too.
You're all right -- this Nav stuff has just about crossed into "needed" option rather than "wanted" option territory.
Hope you get it worked out.
Unless the M's really are as hot as it might seem (wait until Monday and we'll see how the LPS suspects did in July -- probably posted right here on Edmunds), I would think that Invoice + $2000 would be THE MAXIMUM cap cost that would be required.
Cost plus $1000 is probably attainable somewhere within the sound of your voice.
My guess is that you are NOT ordering the car, but are willing to take something in inventory just as long as it has the Technology/Journey package and isn't purple (or some other color combo you don't want.)
Don't give up.
No, it isn't. I haven't lived in the North Platte area for over 30 years, and I can still find my way around pretty well, new developments aside. Most streets go straight north-south and east-west. None of the meandering streets and roads of Northern Virginia, or the diagonal avenues and traffic circles of DC. Arlington is especially difficult - there are numbers that are repeated as St., Rd., and Pl., often they're all together. Then you add in the numerous streets that start and stop multiple times (I've heard, though I don't know for a fact, that there is one street that starts and stops 16 times) and you have a recipe for total confusion. I've lived in Arlington 17 years and I use my navi at least once or twice a month just to find addresses in Arlington.
What I've found with my two navis is that 95% of the time it's a fun to have gadget, but 5% of the time it's an absolute have-to-have necessity.
People who read these posts who live in cities like North Platte and don't go too far afield probably can't comprehend how valuable a navi can be, even in somewhat familiar areas. However, I can't imagine ever having another car without it.
Also, their tests are consistent (standard measurable criteria) and objective, compared to the car mag tests which are notoriously subjective and inconsistent. Car & Driver once confessed, for example, that their noise ratings are not at all consistent from car to car because they are taken on different kinds of road surfaces, CR would never do that. Their ratings are comparative from car to car.
Also, the car mag tests are weighted mainly toward speed and handling. CR has more real-world tests, and also weighs reliability, something the car mags completely ignore.
I give no credence to anything CR says about cars beyond the facts of the case.
For all I know, CR might say the Neon SRT-4 makes more sense than an Audi S4 or BMW M3 based on some specious argument they might make. Granted the SRT-4 may out accelerate the two Germans in this imaginary comparo, and granted it costs less, etc etc -- but that doesn't make it a "Silk Purse" if you get my drift.
I'll honor my bet -- but if the Avalon beats the LPS contenders we all chat about here on edmunds, well, it will once again prove that CR is great at getting facts out. But we all know that the most compelling reasons to be so passionate about our cars are mostly subjective or are conclusions based on "a certain point of view."
Now, I might grant CR's ability to report on reliability (but from what sample?) has more than my passing interest. But, generally speaking, the passion, opinion and experiences reported here vastly outweigh anything CR says.
As far as I'm concerned my Audi A6 is "free from defects." My outgoing allroad at 46,000 miles was also virtually trouble free. Over on the A6 boards there are posts from people who have had such bad experiences they are only able to discuss their disgust for Audi and its cars in barely civil terms.
I suspect such contrasts are also true about BMW's, Chryslers, Porches and even Acura and Infinti (and Subaru, too.)
Often when I read CR about things such as cars and audio speakers, I feel like I am reading a recipe. Two cups of this, a teaspoon full of that, baked at 350 for 35 minutes -- but no real discussion of the taste, smell or texture of the combination and style of preparation.
If I happen to love the ingredients, I guess it might be safe to extrapolate that the combinations will yield a tasty dish.
If I like 300HP cars and X speed automatic transmission seem like a neat idea, well maybe I'll like the new Mercedes or Jaguar or Lexus, since these cars offer these "statistics."
CR is great for appliances -- and this is personal -- I lend little to no credence to their views on products that we humans devote this much passion to.
But, I'm obviously a screaming voice in the wilderness. :shades:
P.S. I value what is said here about the cars at least as much and I believe moreso than C&D and R&T and Automobile and European Car, Car and Motor Trend -- but I do read them (and, shamefully, more -- I am a magazine junkie.)
You mentioned Yuengling Lager. If you like Lager and can get your hands on some Sprecher Special Amber, I highly recommend it. Randy Sprecher left Pabst and in '85 started his micro brewery here in Milwaukee and is famous for traditional old world method full flavored brews.
I am going against the CR reliability ratings and will be taking possession of a 2005 545i within the next week. I had a trouble-free 325i for the last 3 years. So we'll see what happens with the CR "black-circled" 5 series.
If it gives me trouble, you guys will know.
if you order you will get much closer to your goal in pricing...And in NJ, I am not sure you will have more luck with others (Park Ave, Lynnes, Catena or Ramsey) than with Salerno, just based on my experience.
I'm looking into a comparison review of RL, M35 and GS300.
I really don't want V8 and do want AWD.
Those 3 fully loaded (AWD, NAV sys, premium audio etc) should cost about the same
(around 50K)
Has any one seen such a review.
Many thanks, Galgal :
And, it isn't true that they just recommend plain Jane cars. They loved the previous BMW 530 and said it was one of the best cars they ever tested. Likewise, when its reliability is up, they love the BMW 330. Etc.