Luxury Performance Sedans

rich545 · August 2005

Thanks for the report. I can confirm that the "real" wood for the dash looks a lot better with the black on black interior. My 545 came with the anthracite maple trim and I made them switch it to the poplar wood grain at no charge since I was taking a car from their inventory. The anthracite was depressing, and really fake looking IMO. Anyway, about the sales figures for the 5. One thing that I find happens everytime anyone mentions that it is selling very well compared to its competitors (especially on this site) is that people feel inclined to try to speculate on why that is as if it's impossible to imagine that people simply "like" the new designs eventhough they may not. It's always "it must be brand loyalty" or "they must not be aware of what the competition offers" or some other completely speculative justification for the purchase that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the car itself. It just seems like people have a hard time saying that BMW and Mercedes build cars that a lot of people like. I realize in this Bangle era for BMW it's difficult for some people to imagine, but I've met vastly more people that love (not just like) the way the E60 look than those that don't. The one's that don't just seem to be more vocal in their dissent which is their right. Anyway, this is a long-winded way of saying that MB and BMW clearly build cars that people want justifications aside. Let's just give them some credit for that.

kdshapiro · August 2005

"I realize in this Bangle era for BMW it's difficult for some people to imagine, but I've met vastly more people that love (not just like) the way the E60 look than those that don't."

Exactly. And to my post up a bit. The people who do these comparos are out of touch with the marketplace.

With the exception of a few people on this forum, the people I meet tend to really like the new Bangle styles.

I can't understand why condescending remarks, such as buying a car for status is said in these forums? Quite frankly if I want to spend my $50K I'll spend it however I like for the reasons I like, for the cars I want.

jjacura · August 2005

Gee and I thought this was a "No Spin Zone" forum! :P

cstiles · August 2005

I sure hope Capt Phil is okay. We haven't heard from him in a long time, as we motor on in our own little worlds.

jjacura · August 2005

Thanks for the reminder cstiles. "SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! WE LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE, BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE."

msu79gt82 · August 2005

I can't understand why condescending remarks, such as buying a car for status is said in these forums? Quite frankly if I want to spend my $50K I'll spend it however I like for the reasons I like, for the cars I want.

Couldn't agree more. I imagine it will be very difficult to justify needing any of these fine LPS vehicles we are talking about. Any LPS is not a NEED it is a want/desire. Therefore any LPS purchase decision is absolutely about fullfilling the buyers own personal wants and desires - and not every seat meets every fancy :shades:

aas5 · August 2005

The E still sells at the top too, despite the fact that its now much older than most of the class. That makes me think that people are buying it because of the 3-pointed star, and not because it and the 5 series are still the best cars in the class.

The E and 5-Series still sit at the top of the charts due in part to status, but more importantly they offer much more choice than anyone else, especially the E-Class. Only Audi offers awd on both their V6 and V8 sedans, but MB has wagons with a V8 or a V6 with or without awd, a diesel, and a AMG models that now comes in wagon form too. The most awesome people carrier on the market, the E55 "Estate" as they say over there. Now why the new A6 isn't doing better is beyond me, it offers as much choice (minus a AMG-like model and the diesel which are niche models) in sedans as Mercedes does.

I don't know the breakdown of Mercedes sales by type but I think E would be by far the best seller and model choice would not have as dramatic effect on sales as you would think.

syswei · August 2005

Status may mean less to people on this board than it does to the 'typical' LPS buyer. And maybe it means zero so some of the people on this board (though if it really means nothing then such folks might as well remove the badges from their cars).

But status is a very real, and imho major, factor in the real world. BMW and MB sales would be quite alot lower if their cars didn't include the company badges and were somehow unrecognizable as products of BMW and MB.

rich545 · August 2005

Wouldn't you think the C Class would sell better than the E given that it's cheaper which means that a larger group of buyers can afford it? The 3 is the bread and butter of BMW sales for that reason so I would think it would be the same for MB.

hihomike · August 2005

I was very impressed with your report on the 530ix. Those points you covered, you covered exceedingly well. I just got my 06 530i (new 255 hp engine), and found it more potent than the 05 530i, which I test drove before making the choice on the 06.

I work at an Infiniti Dealership and the major reason I did not purchase an M35 or M45 was because of the stiff ride and stiff seats. I have a very bad back and found the Audi, the Acura and the M series much too hard for comfort. When I drove the Mercedes E350, I found the same uncomfortable experience. Then, when I sat in the BMW 5, it was so very satisfying to be comfortable in a sedan without having my back ache for hours after driving it, I had to have one.

You mentioned the "skinny" tires. I agree that an 18" version might be more adept at handling the stresses of the highway, however I've also found that 18" and 19" tires and wheels add a stiffness to the ride that I am trying to avoid. The M series sport models are very hard riding and stiff due to the 19" wheels and tires and are very noisy on the road. The luxury sedan version of the M series uses 18" tires and wheels. My Dad just bought one and I still found it a bit harsh.

I have never owned a BMW - I have had Mercedes Benz vehicles in the 80's and 90's, however after reviewing the data on their lack of quality build, and after driving the new ones, I found them unappetizing. I've also had Audi's and Lexus vehicles, and of all of them, I found the Lexus vehicles more suited to my lifestyle. Then, I drove the new BMW 5 - and I was sold on the spot. Since I am in the automobile business, was able to get my BMW for 1000 over invoice + MACO, or about $1350 total over invoice - which was excellent considering the fact that it's an 06.

You are correct in your assessment that, even though comparative reports on competing vehicles found the 5 series behind the 8 ball, they are still selling more units than any of their competitors - even with the higher price tag. That says something about the quality of the vehicles they produce and the reputation they command, something Mercedes had, but is fast losing. A friend of mine is the General Manager at a Mercedes dealer on the West Coast of Florida, and he told me he has been experiencing more and more customer complaints about the lack of quality build and problems associated with every vehicle he sells. He told me he took back 9 Mercedes vehicles in June, and last month, had to take back 14. That may not sound like many vehicles, but his dealership only sells 70 or 80 a month, or a 10% return. Many of the returns are lemon law related.

In summary, I agree completely with your assessment of the 5 series and stand firmly behind BMW - I've had my 06 since mid April, and haven't had it back to the dealership since I took delivery - not one problem, not one issue, not one complaint. Let's hope this continues for a few more years.

rich545 · August 2005

Why bother to remove the badge? Frankly it seems like the badge means more to people that don't own the cars than those that do from my experience. I in no way bought my car because of status. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of me for driving it. I bought it because I loved the way it drives and the way it looks and because I wanted a bigger car than the 3 that I had previously. I certainly don't need anyone to validate my decision to buy it. I'd like to think that since I had the ability to earn the money to buy it that I'm smart enough to have a better reason than the little badges on the front and back. Sure, some people do buy luxury cars for status, but the status they get from owning one doesn't come from sitting in the car in a vacuum. It comes from the people that don't have it and admire it or the person driving it. I honestly don't waste my time with people that need cars or other trinkets to make them feel better about themselves anyway. If people think I'm a snob for driving a BMW it's THEIR problem, not mine.

rich545 · August 2005

Sorry, that was a little more aggressive than I intended to make it sound. The point I'm trying to make is that I think it's incorrect and inaccurate to atribute BMW's relative sales successes with the Bangle designs entirely to the brand. People aren't going to just throw away $65K on a car that they don't also like simply to show off (at least not many will). The fact is, people like the new designs more than some people thought they would.

rich545 · August 2005

Interesting in that I don't ever think I've heard anyone say that BMW's ride "soft". I actually love the tightness of my car (with the sport package and larger tires). I can see why you don't given your back, but most BMW owners I know buy them for handling and sportiness rather than a soft ride. But if it works for you that's all that's important!

lexusguy · August 2005

I'm curious if you tried a GS300 or GS430?

kdshapiro · August 2005

"BMW and MB sales would be quite alot lower if their cars didn't include the company badges and were somehow unrecognizable as products of BMW and MB."

That doesn't make any sense. However, if I follow your logic, if you substitute Lexus for BMW I would agree.

syswei · August 2005

What are you saying? That brand and status contribute to Lexus sales numbers but not MB and BMW???

markcincinnati · August 2005

I drove the 2005 530i with the standard set up and standard tires; ditto the 2006 530xi also with "standard" everthing. Indeed there is, apparently, no sport option for the xi that lowers the ride and stiffens the springs and increases the damping.

These BMW's were "tight" -- BUT, they also rode softly. I understand the point of view about the Audi and Mercedes (even without the sport set ups) riding more "stiffly" and transmitting more road feel (the good, the bad and the ugly). My Audi has the 18" wheels with 40 series tires -- I EXPECT some additional harshness or stiffness from these tires, and I would expect the 530xi thusly tired would have transmitted more of the "noise" (figuratively and literally) from the road.

Nothing I wrote was a criticism (well, except of the $1200 "comfort" seats, which you would have to pay me to take.)

The 530xi was able to pull off a soft -- but NOT floaty -- ride and except for the limitations imposed by the 50 series, skinny tires, it was well controlled.

I am quite happy with my Audi A6 3.2, and, as I have said, I am sure I would have been happy with the M35X that I had originally ordered. I can now add, with the "swap" options (i.e., can the comfort seats and auto trans and instead get the 18" high performance wheel tire upgrade, sat nav and the sound system upgrade with Sirius) that I think I would enjoy the 530xi (just not with that confining and stark triple black interior, though.)

My wife's Terracotta sport seats are wonderfully comfortable and the interior is a delight to behold -- and this little dude is the BMW that "can't get no respect" in the interior department.

Frankly, the X3 -- with the premium and sport options -- and the contrast that the terracotta leather and black dashboard carries with it -- is far more attractive (to me) than that pitiful black, black, black 530xi I drove.

Give me one of the several other less muted colors that BMW offers (and the selection is pretty impressive) in the interior with some light burch gloss wood trim and perhaps a red, white or green metallic exterior -- and I'll bet the 5 would be a looker.

The inventory of 5's (at Ohio's largest BMW dealer) was overwhelmingly Black, Black metallic or silver. There were a coulple white ones, but otherwise mostly it was black or silver and almost universally with the triple threat black interior.

It's obviously what sells.

Of course my Audi dealer says sales during the last week of July were 5 times better than the first three weeks. I wonder if BMW had the same experience and I wonder if it was from the pressure of the Employee Pricing deals out there?

Probably a lot of STS's should have been sold, don't you think?

docnukem · August 2005

Maybe kdshapiro is suggesting that if you removed the brand plates from all three, Lexus might suffer the most because you can see the styling cues in the other brands better, but the other stuff (like reliability) cannot be read without a brand plate.

Personally, I might agree with the BMW recognition without the plate (I seem to be able to recognize them from a long way off), but not MB (and that's only because the MB styling just doesn't do much for me--not that it's bad, just not eye-catching). Merc1, on the other hand, can probably smell a MB from over a mile off.

kyfdx · August 2005

Pour me a tall one!!

rich545 · August 2005

I was actually responding to Hihomike, and didn't think either he or you were criticizing anything. I was just surprised that he found the 530's ride to be softer than other cars in its class because BMW's often get criticized for being too hard. In fact, my father-in-law won't even buy one because of that (he prefers the "cushy" confines of MB better!). I've never driven a 530 in any form (xi, with SP, or without SP) so I wouldn't know how it feels. I just know that my 545 with SP hit bumps pretty damn hard, but as hihomike mentioned it may because of lower-profile wider tires and obviously the SP. It's a dream on the highway, but it can be jarring at times on local streets.

docnukem · August 2005

Sorry, I deleted the original post after reading it...it didn't make as much sense as I initially thought (and of course, I hit the enter button to move to the message field and posted a blank message with "Virtual Beer" as the title, then added the text as an edit, then deleted everything anyway).

Anyway, the gist was just simple curiosity as to whether Mark owed a beer because the Avalon (nor its upscale cousin the GS) did not win the CR sedan comparo (the issue of it not being included not being addressed).

Sorry, my bad.

ksoman · August 2005

Dude, since when did companies pay their CIO's to write harry potter novels on edmunds?

hpowders · August 2005

Took possession of my brand new 545i this afternoon. Those of you who criticize the look of the E60, try seeing one in person!
I couldn't believe how lovely the car actually looks. Based on the photos, I was a bit apprehensive. But when I saw my car for the first time, I was absolutely thrilled and delighted! What the heck was Road & Track talking about?
People on the interstate were changing lanes to get behind me to admire this baby!
Hey the car isn't photogenic. Well neither am I!
Setting up my radio pre-sets took about 3 minutes for 12 stations. The same as the regular way. A piece of cake.
What's all the complaining about with the iDrive? So easy!
After testing the GS430 and the M45, I know I made the right decision.
My dream has come true!

lexusguy · August 2005

Its kind of amusing that the GS was too much of a "softie" for the race car drivers of Consumer Reports, and yet Edmunds picked the 430 as their numero uno. Generally speaking, I think Edmunds comparison tests were much better a few years ago. Now it seems they completely lack any focus as to how much luxury or how much sport they want, and a car can come in first, or last, completely at the whim of the editor doing the comparison at the time.

jjacura · August 2005

ksoman says..."Dude, since when did companies pay their CIO's to write harry potter novels on edmunds?"
comment...."ksoman first of all when I see the word "Dude", I may be an old fashioned out of sync codger approaching his mid 60's but to me it shows disrespect. I for one take the time to read Mark's postings and if they run on for a few paragraphs so what. He makes his opinions known and rarely shows disrespect for others in these forums , which is more than can be said for most of us. Give me a break!

And now for Rich545 post #3182 you say---
"I in no way bought my car because of status. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks of me for driving it." "If people think I'm a snob for driving a BMW it's THEIR problem, not mine."
You have in the past commented on the fact that many of your neighbors drive BMW's and describe each one. I pity the poor neighbor guy down the street that drives home in an older model Ford. Does he get the thumbs down sign as he hangs his head in shame driving by?

rich545 · August 2005

Let's be a little more careful not to take things out of context. I mentioned that my neighbors drive BMW's not to show off, but specifically to point out that people must not hate the Bangle designs as much as some people seem to think. If I'm misunderstanding your tone or inferring something that you are not implying I apologize. However, you clearly seem to be missing what I'm saying. If you look at my car and make assumptions about me simply because I drive a BMW then the problem IS your's. If you assume I'm a snob because of the badge on the hood of my car then that would indicate a chip on YOUR shoulder about money. The guy driving by in the old Ford, well, if he feels shame driving through my neighborhood then again, it's HIS issue. No one is saying or doing ANYTHING to make him feel that way. Yes, I live in an upscape suburb of Chicago. Do you expect me to apologize for that? I don't care if people drive old Fords, new Ferrari's or ride the bus. It says nothing to me about who they are because generalizations simply show a limited intellect in my opinion. There are great people that have nothing and great people that have lots. The same is true the other way around. I would never judge anyone based on what they do or don't have.

rich545 · August 2005

Congrats! I know that you'll continue to love it too! 15K miles on mine and I still smile everytime I mash down the accelerator and take a hard turn.

pat · August 2005

with the personal sniping. It is not appropriate and we need to keep the conversation focused on the vehicles, not on our criticisms of each other.

hpowders · August 2005

Thank you very much rich545! To actually experience drivers moving out of their lanes to get behind my beautiful new 545i was an absolute kick! One of them was driving a new RL. It's like my car had a magnet attached to the trunk.
I can't stop going to the garage to look at my beautiful new addition to the family.
I can't wait to get out there on the interstate tomorrow with my well-tuned radio thanks to the iDrive controller.
This just about seals the deal. I have driven only BMW's since 1993. I cannot see myself ever driving anything else.
I feel sorry for those folks who deprive themselves of experiencing one of life's greatest pleasures because of the vendettas perpertrated on this great company by the auto press.

lexusguy · August 2005

Oh yes, because the automotive press has historically been so nasty to BMW. I seem to recall the previous 5 winning pretty much every comparison it was invited to. The previous 5 was a pretty much universally attractive car. Maybe not as daring as the current 5, but it certainly wasnt RL vanilla kool-aid. It also made short work of the rest of the 4 car class in handling, and thus a first place finish was pretty much in the bag, no matter how much it cost. There was just very little to complain about last time.

The 5 has gotten better, but in some ways its also gone backwards. AS still doesnt feel right. iDrive could be a lot better than it is. The styling is polarizing. The competition is now close enough in terms of handling that a $10K+ premium sticks out a little more than it used to. You are implying that the car mags have declared some sort of jihad on BMW. They havent. If the new 5 was a revolutionary step foward and again obliterated the competition, I'm sure C&D would have no problem awarding it a first place finish, even if it came in at $55K+ for the 6.

kdshapiro · August 2005

There is a division between certain mags and the sales figures. What does that say to you?

1. The biggest gripe about idrive seems to be much ado about nothing as hpowders post suggest and rich545 talks about.

2. The current styling is polarizing, as was the previous styling. There was a certain camp that absolutely did not like the looks of the E39.

3. It doesn't drive as well. Most reviewers still say this is the car to beat and the Active Steering is indespensable once you get used to it.

4. It's underpowered. Maybe compared to the competitors but it also uses less gas for almost the same performance.

5. HP means nothing, it's what the car does with it that counts.

hpowders · August 2005

Yes and if you look hard enough I'm sure you can find some faults with heaven.
I am not talking about the past. It's always "what have you done for me lately." The current press-bashing which emphasizes putting BMW's E60 down based on subjective criteria such as interior and exterior design plus their way out of line sobbing about a controller knob which a 7 year old can learn to use in 5 minutes to me sounds like irrational bashing.

kyfdx · August 2005

Congratulations on your new car...

Geez... can't you guys leave a guy alone for at least the first couple of days, and just let him enjoy it?

regards,
kyfdx

markcincinnati · August 2005

When we tested the BMW 530xi we used the iDrive to set the AC and the audio/radio.

iDrive is NOT difficult. MMI in some respects is easier to use.

Yet iDrive is a, one, "1" controller -- MMI and its associated switches and controls (in my A6) amounts to 80 switches. Now, there are probably at least half that many in the 5. But the design of the iDrive appears to have been with the intention of creating a point and click multiple menu layer system. It achieved that.

MMI seems more direct -- but MMI does have more buttons to push.

MMI probably would be easier to master for someone who just got in and needed to drive the car, TODAY. iDrive has more layers and can be less direct.

I could live after a day or two, tops, with either one.

Without voice response they are both an invitation to Congress to mandate "only" hands free and eyes free as being legal. No cell phones, no beverages, etc.

These systems remind me of Windows 2.0 (at the time, I would disable Windows in favor of the DOS prompt.) Windows 3.0 was a little better and finally Windows 3.1 ushered in an era where the icons were doing more than loading .bat or .exe files that could be called simply by typing "123" and watching your spreadsheet fire up.

At present, I'll give a tiny edge to MMI -- but the differences are not substantial. The Audi system gets the edge since you can get to a feature or option or control more directly than the BMW system. But again these systems are clearly in need of upgrading -- and I'm betting voice and touch will be the tickets.

The 7 series has a lot more voice functionality than the Audi A6's voice command. The A6 is limited to controlling the Telephone, CD, Radio and Navigation systems. Of course it could be argued that with auto lights and auto wipers the only thing left to control via voice is the climate control.

I will conclude by suggesting that this is the first time ever (since 1988) that the differences between the Audi and BMW were more cosmetic than any other characteristic. They perform similarly and they do all they can to be as alike as can be -- even if they don't do so intentionally.

The BMW, however, retains cache, or more cache than the Audi, even if the distance is slowly closing.

I am now convinced that I would be happy with the A6, the 530xi or the M35X.

I just happen to like the Audi just a smidgen better (at the current price point, that is.)

hpowders · August 2005

Thanks for the good wishes. It is tough to make it as a poster on the "luxury performance sedans" thread. Along with "high-end luxury marques," the most stimulating discussions on Edmunds.

janssen · August 2005

It says that the car (as well as the E320) sells more than others in the class. Are you surprised? These two have been the real originators of the LPS, and have established a brand. Does not mean they will always be the best in their class, does it?

A few comments:

1. I would call it much ado about something important. Personally, I change things like volume, fan speed, temperature, radio stations, navigation...fairly frequently. I have gotten used to certain buttons by feel or by peripheral vision/quick glances. If I have to turn that knob, then watch the menu, then turn, watch, turn...you get the picture. I think people lose some credibility by trying to defend the iDrive. I am a BMW owner, and I KNOW it is not good, and not safe. Some of the others in this class have separated and/or duplicated those frequently used controls, while leaving more arcane ones in the central button. Much smarter and more ergonomic. So why defend iDrive, unless BMW is perfect.

2. This is a new degree of polarizing. I always applaud those who try to push the envelope. I don't really like this look, and I know there was nowhere near the size of 'camp' that hated the previous generation. Regardless, only BMW or Mercedes could have gotten away with this bold a move.

3. Sorry-the previous generation had one of the best steering feels in the world. While many reviewers have had differing opinions about the AS, most have said they preferred the previous.

Yes, this is the car to beat. Some others are getting very, very close. For much, much less. MUCH.

4. Agreed. Underpowered in the same price class. Or we can compare to a similar model, like the M45, and the competition gets very close. But then the price is $12K to $14K more. Is it worth that much money, when you will drive it at the edge fairly infrequently? Is it worth that much to put up with the vagaries of the styling and iDrive?

And who are you kidding with the gas mileage? You will spend $14K more for pretty much the same performance, then save a few bucks on gas because that is more important than horsepower? Very inconsistent. And again, stretches the credibility.

Most importantly, because the sales figures are as high as you point out, the corporate culture is one of relative indifference to their customers. I won't bother to tell you my tale of woe with this horrible organization, because it would no doubt sound like so many of those stories you have already heard. Man, I hated to buy a new car that wouldn't drive like my 5 series. But I hated getting into that car and thinking about all the people in BMW I have dealt with, from the Sales manager all the way up to the director of customer relations for BMW NA. "Sorry, fella, we have no control over our dealers." What the....? So I bought a car from Mom and Pop's Service Station? They can sh*t on their customers all they want, and BMW doesn't care???

Tell you what-I bought into the BMW mystique, and found out it is like one of those e-mails from Nigeria. Too bad the car itself is head and shoulders above the competition.

Or WAS.

5. Nothing? No, it means something, set in the picture of the whole car. But the 5 series with the 6 does not compare with the M45 with the 8. It is just not a fair comparison. 10 or 20 HP, maybe, but not 50 or 60 HP difference. C'mon!

The brand is no longer worth the differential price, unless you have so much extra dough that a diff of greater than $10K is a drop in the bucket. For those of us who work for a living, it makes a difference. To heck with the spinning prop logo. And (at least in my case) to heck with disdainful customer service. My $50K deserves better.

So now you have my agenda. But it is strongly based on facts. BTW, before I bought my new car, I DID test a 545, to make sure I wasn't being TOO pigheaded. I am glad I did, because I am happy with my decision to abandon my prior BMW, and move to a better experience.

For those with a new 5 series, I congratulate you! I loved my first new BMW when I got it, and I am sure you will love yours, too. It is one of the best in the world, and certainly meant to be driven and enjoyed! Cheers!

merc1 · August 2005

I don't know the breakdown of Mercedes sales by type but I think E would be by far the best seller and model choice would not have as dramatic effect on sales as you would think.

Thats the one thing that is nearly impossible to find out about, the breakdown for each Benz model. There was a site some years ago, but it has since been torn down. I see so many E320s, now E350s to the point where I think out of a 4K month of sales at least 2500-3000 of those are most likely E350s. Just a guess. I'll see if I can find the breakout.

M

merc1 · August 2005

Merc1, on the other hand, can probably smell a MB from over a mile off.

Well not quite, well maybe back in the old days of the diesel Benzes, but not now...lol. I can however tell at night which model is ahead of me or approaching from behind by the taillight and headlight patterns. This is true of most cars though, been that way since I was a child.

M

jlbl · August 2005

Congratulations for your E60!

A friend of mine says that for loving an E60 one must climb three steps. (My friend does not own an E60 but has drove mine last weekend. He is not particularly a BMW fan.)

First, to look at a picture of it. Quite unimpressive.

Then, to have a direct vision of the item among other cars, either parked or in movement. Vaya! That car seems to stand apart from the others!

Finally, to drive it not for half an hour but a journey. Do you like driving? This is it!

OK., they are also other good LP Sedans

. But for months we have kept reading posts in this Forum on how bad E60 5 Series was. :sick:

merc1 · August 2005

I too just noticed that you got the BMW. Congrats. Any pics to share?

M

ksoman · August 2005

Nice. Nice. Hey, if I can smile while car pooling with my wife, when we are arguing... blame it on the 3 convertible....

the 545 is delicious, and I for one actually like the new look of the BMW, though I think the new 3 is kinda kookie...

I'm just fishing around till the ultrapromise of the 550 hits the showrooms. Based on the 750i drive, it's sounds like virtual Nirvana.

Mark/JJ Acura, I am not a teenager, but in my circle dude is a term of endearment, not insult.

ksso

hpowders · August 2005

Hey folks, thanks for all your kind wishes concerning my new 545i!

Jannsen-your post was most stimulating. I agree that if you frequently change settings, iDrive can become frustrating. Most drivers I believe set it and forget it. I did not get the active steering and the regular steering feels just fine.
By the way which car did you get?

Jibl-Yes! I have never seen a car that is so non-photogenic yet makes such a striking impression in person. I will post about the driving experience after 1000 miles and the car has been adequately broken in.

Merc1-No photos to share. See above response to Jibl. You just have to come on down to Tampa and "see it in the metal."

Ksoman-Yeah. I looked at the new 3 series too. I couldn't get past the incredibly ugly tail lights. Much nicer on the E60.

rich545 · August 2005

Well, most of what you said is based on personal experience, not facts, though you believe it is. I can't argue if you're convinced how you feel is fact; no point in trying. All that you KNOW is that iDrive is bad for you. I KNOW it isn't bad for me. I also KNOW it would be bad for my brother-in-law that can't stop figgeting and messing with the controls for the radio and HVAC every five seconds. So there are SOME people it isn't good for, and SOME people (myself and hpowders as examples) that it works just fine for because we set everything up and for the most part don't change much. My BMW experience has involved a few dealerships
and I can't complain. My salespeople have been great, and most of the service people have been nice and helpful. I have driven the E39 and I happen to think that the E60 drives better. I KNOW it handles better and is faster. Yes, the competition is getting much closer, but that is a testment to them not an indication of BMW losing ground. There wasn't as many vocal dessenters for the E39 design because it was much more conservative. It didn't rock the boat. The E60 is much more bold. Just like anything else that is bold, that will gain it dedicated supporters and detractors. No one is saying BMW is perfect (or Infiniti, Lexus, Acura or MB). It's just that there are a lot of us out there (believe it or not) that love the new designs and feel that they are a wonderful evolution of the BMW tradition. I realize that there are many (mostly E39 owners) that feel almost slighted by BMW's direction, and don't agree that the E60 represents an evolution of the species at all. To them I say "So what?" Why get so upset? Just buy another brand like you did. I mean, if I don't like the next generation 5 I won't buy it. I won't complain endlessly about it either because it's a waste of time and I wouldn't want to take away from other people's joy of it if they did like it.

rich545 · August 2005

Well, maybe not really funny, but I was just thinking that it's pretty interesting (for lack of a better word) that we all sit here and argue endlessly back and forth about our $50K+ LPS. I guess I find it interesting that we (and I completely include myself in all of this) care so much about our cars. I know I'm surprised at myself for caring so much about it. I do think we represent a minority of car owners. Most people I know don't really care much about their cars, and don't even notice other cars on the road. They like nice cars, but would never bother to post on a message board about them. Drives my wife crazy when I point out cars that we pass or pass us while we're driving around. She'll ask why I care so much, and I can only answer that I have no idea!

cstiles · August 2005

Janssen---excellent post. Lots to chew on in your perspectives and missives. Occasionally there are LONG postings on Edmunds that provide good grist for the mill.

My point with suggesting to Edmunds to generally limit the size of the posts to 200 words or less still stands. Or maybe we can agree to do this....if you're going to post something, offer something new instead of repeating the same point you've already made 6 times before? If we already know you love or hate something, don't keep repeating it. Offer a new perspective or insight. Thank you.

My eyes are watering at the length of some of these posts that go on forever without offering much new information.

hpowders · August 2005

Which pretty much sums up why the majority of folks out there are quite content to be driving around in Toyotas.
I had my 325i for 3 years and I always found it hilarious that my wife could never site our car in a parking lot. When she would point out what she thought was our car, it usually wasn't even close.
Yet in the house, if I move a small candy dish 2 inches, she notices. Different genes I guess.

rich545 · August 2005

Sorry, one more thing about iDrive. Of the five things you mentioned that you change often, only one requires iDrive (nav) to change. There is a volume knob, a fan speed knob, two climate control knobs and steering wheel buttons for the radio. Actually, if you have nav you also have voice commands so you don't even need iDrive for nav. I can only assume that BMW added these redundant features in case people didn't want to use iDrive.

ksoman · August 2005

remarkable observation. the wife does indeed notice the 2inch shift in the decorate accents, but can't tell much from one car to another... thought it was my wife who held out for the mystic blue bmw convertible when the audi a4 cabrio dealer kept begging with lesser and lesser prices to get his blue off the lot. I'm suprised how many of those a4 cabrio's were still on the lot in a sunny place like scottsdale, az, months after we picked her car.

Now if i'd not got nailed on my A6... The interior just made me drool... it's by far the most well put together car in terms of looks, but i'm done with my ownership experience.... sadly.

that's one reason I was rooting for the RL, it just seemed like Acura was doing everything just so well in addition to it's reliability, the super hit MDX, then the super fun TSX and then the very striking, though suprisingly smallish TL... and then, I think the RL is a great do it all, just that I find it too noisy and too blah for 50K.... and mostly not as spacious as I expected...

janssen · August 2005

Interesting...

Yes, these are facts, in my personal experience. I tried to combine my personal ownership experiences with the test drives I undertook, and the reviews/forums I read. I researched a lot, especially given my prior experiences with BMW.

There are no questions from this quarter that iDrive would be OK for some, and I certainly agree that if you use the controls less, it matters less. I find myself using the controls fairly often, and can not say what 'normal' usage is.

And completely agree with people liking different styles. I saved my comments on exterior styling so as to de-emphasize them. I think that is a less important feature. I like function more than form. But I DID want to buy into the BMW thing, get the key fobs, posters, shirts, etc. Couldn't happen for me, and I must say as a business owner I was personally shocked by their corporate culture. YMMV!

Apologize if you thought I was complaining. I was trying to be comprehensive and share my experiences. I still think my 2003 was a pretty awesome car, despite lots of little problems, and a few larger ones (engine failsafe light came on many times-dealer could not find problem, eventually told me my aftermarket radio was the problem; air bag warning light-dealer told me they would get to it in six weeks, and that it was 'probably' nothing-wrong; passenger door froze in the locked position-dealer fixed it but trashed side airbag, and took two months to fix that, only with my nagging). I hope you can understand my frustration.

I sincerely said that all the new 5 owners should be really proud. Despite my experiences, it is a great car. These are mostly small differences we are haggling over. And i DO wish the same for you! Enjoy!

janssen · August 2005

Thanks. I am new here. Will keep it shorter and to the point!

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