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  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    Hi, Lexusguy:

    I do miss the NYIAS, I've been going since it was at the old Coliseum... Moved to Boston in '91 and have gone to the N.E. show at the Bayside Expo which doesn't compare to the Javist or Coliseum. Ok, I was very young at the Coliseum so maybe it seemed bigger. But the Javits...!

     

    I was at the show for a good 7+ hours (I'm old and slow and just like cars...) and the GS, even when being shown, never had a crowd. It just isn't a compelling design (evil wife drives an RX300, btw). The tail of the M45 is not a pretty sight, I agree. But overall a much nicer design than the GS. The RL is handsome, but generically so. Much like the previous gen TL. The new TL is a nice design. My Chrysler 300M is, of course, the fairest in the land!

     

    Anywho, beauty is in the eye and I'm sure enough eyes will dig the new GS. I mean they sold the current version which is just wrong, external stylistically speaking. IMHO, of course.

     

    The MB E is a classy design, both in and out.

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    My wife has an RX too :) Gotta say the Chrysler 300M does absolutely nothing for me. Its a '90s "Cab-foward" era Chrysler with FWD that should never have had a 300 badge on it. The new one is sooo much better, and I dont really like the C either, but its at least more deserving of the 300 moniker.

     

    I like the design of the GS and M much better than RL, which doesnt do much of anything for me. I was hoping for something agressive like TSX and TL, but instead Acura chose to meld a '96 RL with a '98 CL. The V6 is great, but its still just a V6, and the RL doesnt appear that it will be much if any faster than GS300 and M35, despite its 300 ponies. The M45's 335hp and revised gearing should make up for the mistakes they made with the original M and Q, meaning 0-60 in under 6. Same with GS430. Lexus also has a secret GS hybrid monster coming in their skunkworks department. I predict some healthy initial sales for RL, much like the '98 Lexus GS, thanks to its headstart, but once M and GS hit the market in full, bye bye RL.
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    I have to agree with laurasdada on the looks of the 300M. I drove one for 3 years and found it to be very very good for a FWD car. The styling was outstanding, I thought.
  • bmwdougbmwdoug Member Posts: 248
    What is the hoopla about the M? It looks like an Altima, although a little more plush.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I think M looks a lot better than the contrived Bangled 5. I agree it gets let down be the rear-end treatment though

     

    Legend (RL) & Fuga (M35, RWD I think) have apparently been put to the test by some Japanese mag. Word is Fuga beat Legend around the circuit by quite a bit. Personally I wouldn't have expected that since every US magazine I read gave the handling edge to RL (because of SH-AWD) over its German competitors. Unofficially, because I don't know any mag has put out official lap times.

     

    We'll have to wait and see, maybe something got lost in the translation from the Japanese magazine.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You sure it wasnt M35 AWD? Nissan's ATTESA system is also very advanced (though not quite as SH-AWD). Another thing could be the RL's poor braking could require the RL driver to brake much earlier going into a turn, and also the M35 has a lot more torque and at a lower rpm meaning a significant advantage to M coming out of that turn.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I think M looks a lot better than the contrived Bangled 5"

     

    Yes, if you're wearing sunglassess and looking directly at the sun. Otherwise the contrived Bangled 5 is a thing of beauty. IMHO.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Back to the usual I see.

     

    BMW loyalists saying that Infinitis look like Nissans, and Infiniti enthusiasts lamenting that Bimmers are ugly Banglarized vehicles.

     

    Personally, the 5 is growing on me. It catches my eye, and I prefer it to the old 5, whose design I've always considered boring and rather sedate.

     

    At the same time, I really like the look of the new M. It is striking and elegant at the same time, which isn't easy to do (5 is striking, E is elegant).

     

    Interior-wise, I prefer the M over the 5 hands down.

     

    I've only seen the M in photos, but I'm gonna stop by at the DC auto show tomorrow and check it out in person.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    You sure your last name isnt Bangle? The 5 is absolutely hideous. So is the 6. And 7. And Z4. The new 3 doesnt look TOO bad, I'm sure BMW's top guys told him to seriously tone it down for the 3. If Bangle screwed that one up, BMW would be out of business.

     

    The M45 and GS430 is a really tough choice for me, exterior wise. I really like both of them, and I'd have to see them a lot more in person to get an idea of which one I like better. Interior wise, the GS has Jaguarish classic elegance (and much like Jaguar it looks much better with parchment than black), where as the M's is more modern and technical looking, but they both are class leaders in terms of design.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "You sure your last name isnt Bangle? The 5 is absolutely hideous."

     

    Sez who? For every person who doesn't like the styling 10 do. I think if you can post repeated negative opinion, there can be repeated positive opinions.

     

    To me the new M looks bland, but that's me, feel free to disagree.

     

    The Z4 - to the couple of people I know who own one, they love it. The looks are great.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'd have to say that for every person that DOES like the 5, 10 dont.
  • bmwdougbmwdoug Member Posts: 248
    Well, I love the look of the new 5. I don't own one, but I lust after one. I think a lot of people try to find negative things to say about BMW's because they don't like the "status image" the cars give. But, hey Rolex is a status thing as well. I don't begrudge anyone from buying a car because of an image he/she wants to project. Heck, the marketing companies of Nissan, BMW, and Benz all thrive on image. By the way, don't let my screen name fool you, I currently do not own a BMW. I am driving a Camry. Go figure. :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Don't let my screen name fool you either. I am currently not driving one although I own one.:)

     

    I find it hard to believe that people don't buy these cars in this bracket for status. Or a $28K 325 confers more "status" than a $60K Lincoln Blackwood edition.

     

    Clearly in my mind, the fact the updated BMWs have taken longer to accept means they will not be the fad of the day and these designs and their derivatives will be with us for the next few years.

     

    Beauty after all is instant, appreciation takes longer.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Someone who loves Picasso's may dislike Monet's and visa-versa. This love for a particular style does not necessarily diminish "beauty in the eye of the beholder". To say that BMW would be out of business if the next 3er doesn't meet your design expectations shows a diminished understanding of reality.

     

    BMW is not having problems selling cars... but did make a bad move to "double-whammy" its customers with iDrive on top of an avante-guard design. Too much to swallow, IMO.

     

    BMW is selling cars to people who appreciate driving dynamics and have a desire to drive something that isn't amorphous to the point of being "so-what?".

     

    You can offer opinions, but if you object to such a great degree, your Lexus dealer has something nice for you and there will be one more BMW for someone else to choose ;-).
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well just look at that big ol' mean black circle that the BMW 5 series just earned in October CR for reliability. That oughta help the car just absolutely fly out of the showrooms!

    Bring on the Infiniti M45!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    If BMW wanted its designs to be polarizing, well then they succeeded wonderfully. All I'm saying is that I used to really like the 90's classy BMW style. The 97-03 5 series, especially the M5, were sexy cars. The new one isnt, and most of the magazines seem to agree. The new one doesnt appear to be the class leader either. The 97-03 car walked all over its competition, now its scoring midpack and half of the competition hasnt even released their cars yet. I predict that the Infiniti M will be the new segment benchmark, with A6 and RL close behind. GS is still an unknown. The 5, and I'm sorry BMW fanatics, is just a midpack player this time around.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    M will be the new benchmark? What happened to the GS which is in the Lexus skunkworks department?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It's the future flavor of the month club. In the meantime the 5er is still the king.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I meant of the "normal" cars. As far as I know the Lexus GS hybrid is going to be one of their "GT" specialty cars, which I wasnt counting, like the E55, M5, etc. Of the non "tuner division" cars, the M45 looks like the best of the bunch.

     

    kdshapiro, can you show me a comparison that the new 5 series has won? I havent seen a single one. I do remember, however, seeing R&T ranking the new 530i in SIXTH place, behind the OLD Audi A6. That hardly sounds like a "king" to me.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    I have a more favorable opinion of the new 5 than lexusguy, but I agree that the 5 is no longer the benchmark.

     

    It placed in 6th place in the R&T comparo, and C&D just named the RL the best car in its class, over the 5.

     

    Of course, it can still be "king" in the minds of some people, but the general automobile press does not seem to agree with that notion.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=3782

     

    I guess it's all in the eyes of the beholder.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    True.. but autolies is a pitiful excuse for an automobile website..

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Maybe, but everybody has an opinion. That is why I don't hang on to these reviews as gospel, because they are only opinions.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    True, these are all opinions. But when a car gets an overwhelming positive cumulative opinion of the automobile press and reviewers who do it for a living, you have a "benchmark." The old 5 was the benchmark in its class; the new 5 is not.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Well it appears the Acura isn't either, so I wonder what the benchmark is? It's good to see two extremes on the same vehicle. Maybe the 545? Actually the 545 is in a class by itself and dusts the others cars.

     

    Here's a review that says it is the benchmark:

     

    http://www.automotive.com/2005/43/bmw/5-series/reviews/summary-sp- - ecifications/index.html

     

    edit - these are somewhat informed if not subjective opinions.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The only thing that autospies is good at is getting a bunch of spy pics from other sites and putting it in one place. It's just one or two guys, and they are not professional reviewers by any stretch of the imagination.

     

    That said, no one has said that the RL is the benchmark either, so I don't think it's the benchmark.

     

    When there is no clear-cut favorite, a segment does not necessarily have a benchmark, and I think that is the case in this segment.

     

    5 as the overall benchmark?

    Based on mag reviews, no.

    Based on sales, no (E is the sales leader).

     

    It is, however, the benchmark when it comes to handling (without active steering), most reviewers seem to say.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    R&T, in their latest issue, clocked the M45 0-60 at 5.3 and quartermile at 13.8.

     

    I think that's the fastest ever for a V8 sedan in this class.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The M45 also got a .90g on the skippad, which R&T says is the best for any sedan it has ever tested.

     

    The car was a Sport model with the rear-active suspension, which R&T praised.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The car tested in this review was the 530, not the 545.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The skidpad is the result of wide tires and nothing else.

     

    Infiniti has a history of being all over the place with their horses.

     

    I believe I've read where the 545 clocked close to 5 secs, like 5.1 or thereabouts.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "The skidpad is the result of wide tires and nothing else."

     

    Gosh, is it so difficult for you when a non-BMW gets good reviews? Does it always turn have to turn into "but, BMW is better..."? Take the BEST EVER skidpad numbers for what it's worth. And FYI, wide tires help, but it's not the ONLY thing that make good skidpad runs.

     

    "Infiniti has a history of being all over the place with their horses."

     

    Even if true, so what, who cares, and what does it have to do with the fact that the M45 got 5.3s 0 to 60?

     

    "I believe I've read where the 545 clocked close to 5 secs, like 5.1 or thereabouts."

     

    To my knowledge, the best ever 0-60 time for a stock 545i was 5.3s, also from R&T.
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,686
    The "best" car is the one you BUY! Only YOU can define "best." That's why my brand spankin' new TL is better than all the other cars I didn't buy...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "Actually the 545 is in a class by itself and dusts the others cars."

     

    And you can fly, and pixies grant magical wishes! Saying it doesnt make it true. The 540i left VERY big shoes to fill, and the 545 does not fill them.
  • jkingjking Member Posts: 12
    After an thorough evaluation (long test-drive and research) of the RL, I was disappointed with the following:

     

    -Stiff ride, not as comfortable as old RL

    -6 cyl torque with 8 cyl fuel consumption

    -Considering the cost, why no hydraulic hood

     struts ?

    -The seats do not look or feel as substantial as

     those in a 5 or E class

     

    The price is too close to a 545 and the actual vehicle too reminiscent of an Accord. I'm sure it will be a Maytag in terms of reliability, but it should not be compared to a BMW, in terms of driving dynamics, prestige etc..

     

    Not unlike the GS, great reliability and dealer experience, but confused about whether it wants to be a sports-sedan, or a luxury sedan, with an interior that screams "Toyota" (switches, buttons and turn-signal stalk lifted out of a Camry).

     

    BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Oh Gimmee a break! Budgetary constraints? Please spare me. Many of us have bought or are thinking of buying $60,000 Lexus LS's. There are plenty of other reasons many of us will pass on BMW's next time around.
  • gogglespiasanogogglespiasano Member Posts: 28
    What a pathetic post. Having reviewed all these autos and not really having a budgetary constraint (I can spend what a 545 costs), I can tell you the 5 not only fails to be the benchmark but has significant drawbacks relative to cars which cost less.

     

    Other have pointed out some of the middle of the road characteristics of the 5. BMW has major issues with reliability, i drive, styling (exterior as noted by many and just compare the A-6 with the 5 interior).

     

    I am not sold on the RL either by the way. The braking, performance and rear and trunk space mean it represents a big set of compromises also. Put AWD in a TL and it compares very favorably with any of these cars. I also agree that on paper the new M is intriguing. It seems that Infiniti is trying to give the customer solid braking, handling, performance, luxury in terms of adequate interior and trunk space and hopefully the outstanding reliability Infiniti has been known for. BMW (and some of the other overpriced compromises) has been making a living off of people willing to overpay for their set of compromises and I agree with the other posters that it is evident to buyers who really look at the other alternatives.

     

    As an aside, I think Lexus has gotten away with giving the buyer a relatively poor set of compromises in the base GS also. I can't beleive the redesign seems to be so underpowered, etc. They have been essentially selling an ES with some tinsel.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader."

     

    Again, BMW owners can keep saying that the new 5 is the benchmark, but that doesn't make it so. Neither do a couple reviews from "reviewers" on internet sites. It has NOT been lauded as the benchmark by the general automobile press.

     

    Budget constraints? People who spend $50k on an RL are not overly concerned about spending a couple thousand extra for a 530i with less features. Wait... maybe by budget constraints you're referring to people who buy the underwhelming 525i (40% of 5 series sales). lol.

     

    "Considering the cost, why no hydraulic hood struts?"

     

    Considering the 5's cost, why no in dash cd changer? I'd think that people change their cd's more often than open their hoood.

     

    I do agree with a couple things in your post. The 5 does have better driving dynamics and prestige than the RL.
  • kirby2010kirby2010 Member Posts: 136
    Always amazed that BMW comes up as the benchmark. I felt it was a little tight in the shoulders. My 2001 A6 (2.7T w/6speed) is a much more comfortable ride. Goes fast (very fast), fun to drive, etc.

     

    I guess if all cars are compared to their potential - autobahn speeds with competent drivers on crowded highways - then I suppose one car could stand out. As it is the opportunity to push these cars to the point where there may be a real discriminator, or for that matter, a driver skilled enough to push these cars to their limit, are both very rare commodities.

     

    Even at an above-the-speed-limit 80-90 mph that many of us would like to be able to drive the differences are too imperceptible to measure.

     

    I'm considering trading the Audi this spring. Absolutely believe the quattro puts Audi at the top of the class. Now I have to look at the Acura RL. Acura's re-sale may be worth consideration though in this category cost/price is not the first concern.

     

    Unlikely I will ever go BMW. Styling has taken a turn for the worse. I have always believed BMW to be over-rated. I've known more than one person who had to own a BMW - never driven one - but it was the thing to do. Reminds me of a story I saw in TV a few weeks back. Do you all remember the British TV show from the 60s - "The Saint." Turns out producers wanted Roger Moore to drive a flashy sports car and the new Jaguar model wasn't available. They actually bought - at full price - the new Volvo sports coupe. Demand out paced the ability to produce. Product placement will do wonders and all those pseudo James Bonds out there have convinced themselves they have to have a BMW. Once they reach they have to keep telling themselves they made the right choice.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The journalists say the 5 series is the benchmark. They say if you want value go to the RL, although I'm not really sure what that means.

     

    The RL deserves to be car of the year, it's a fresh new design, but that's probably where it's gonna end.

     

    "BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader."

     

    LOL...n1. Thought that would get a reaction.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    No, they arent saying that. You are.

     

    "M45's 0.90 skidpad performance validates this, setting a new Road & Track best for a production sedan."

      

    "And its 65.4 mph slalom speed is among the fastest for a luxury 4-door, bested only by more expensive hot rods like the Audi RS-6, BMW M5, and Mercedes-Benz C55.

     

    Behold the new benchmark bimmers. Its that little upstart Nissan, and its car, beats yours. Sorry. Oh, and R&T's price as tested? $49,999. Try getting a 545i with ANYTHING inside for that.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    With BMW's 5 series getting the worst reliability rating from CR, sounds like the benchmark from hell.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Skidpad means nothing, it's like saying the weight of the steak has any bearing on the quality.

     

    But it's interesting to see the same old reaction when a supposed BMW beater comes around.

     

    hpowders - who look at reliability when buying a car? I don't. Even though the Toyota I bought has some issues in CR I still got car. Not worried. People who buy BMWs as well know their cars aren't falling apart and are not going to leave them stranded. Black circles is not a reason not to get a car, otherwise the manufacturers would not sell one of them that CR purports to be unreliable.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well then you are one of those rare individuals who don't factor in reliability concerns in determining their next car lease or purchase. I, however, believe it is one of many things a prudent potential buyer should be considering. And I am far from being alone-Lexus sales are going through the roof-not because of styling innovations.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    What's more interesting is the same old reaction from BMW fanatics when another car gets good reviews.

     

    You still harping on the skidpad numbers? Geez

     

    Face it, the 5 has not been received with universal praise. Many people and reviewers are underimpressed with the styling inside and out (I personally LIKE the exterior styling), poor ergonomics of the i-drive, and reliability history. It has received consistant praise for its handling, but handling alone does not make a car great.

     

    "who look at reliability when buying a car? I don't."

     

    Actually, I don't know a single person other than you who doesn't look into the reliability history when buying a car.

     

    --------------

     

    On the other hand, I wouldn't say that the M has set the benchmark in this class. It remains to be seen.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Infiniti has been harrying BMW with their G, and RT and CD sure loved the M45, especially with RT blazing to 60 in 5.3s, that too with an automatic tranny. RT felt that this harrying would continue with the new M. Let's see how things work out for these cars.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    to me (I actually buy cars, as opposed to leasing) and very few others, reliability is irrelevant to most drivers in this segment.

     

    For a variety of reasons, most lease. Some would say it's to drive a car that isn't otherwise affordable. Others point to business-related writeoffs. In any event, many cars needn't last past the warranty to satisfy -- the initial driver dumps it before (or as) the warranty runs out.

     

    There are precious few people in these boards discussing the pleasure of driving 150K miles in the same dependable vehicle. Holding up my lantern, I continue to search. . .

     

    Then, to add to the joy, I will only own a car (for personal use, my wife thinks otherwise) with a manual transmission and rear-wheel drive. This is a near non-existant demographic -- sports/luxury with reliability, RWD and a manual transmission. Infiniti is about it. BMW works if you drop the dependability/reliability bit. . .which I'm reluctant to do.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The M finally proves that Japan can build a German car, if they choose to do so. I'm not really surprised it was Nissan to finally pull it off, they've always been the "spunkiest" of the big Japan three. Infiniti is just on a fire streak. It will be interesting to see what becomes of the Q. Infiniti has steadily killed all of its failed Lexus competitors...except for that one.
  • sapparosapparo Member Posts: 68
    BMW 5 series was, and is the benchmark, as much as it hurts those who try to justify their budgetary constraints, by comparing lesser pretenders with the class-leader"

     

    No arguing there. It looks like no other. Rear end looks like its dragging a diaper with a full load. Current benchmark and winner of ugliest car of the class with cheap, low rent interior and "like no other" Atari video game controller for entertainment. Other notable entries were the Z4 and big poppa 745. Well it did make the least reliable list along with the 7 so their doing something right.

     

    Of course the pretender new RL is a much more advanced car with it's SH-AWD system which apparently BMW is going to add on the 5 series wow. Infiniti's going for the throat with these hot new M models. I wonder if BMW management was thinking the G35 was a pretender that's why they rushed to market the ZHP option package. Good thing I have my "ugly blockers" shades handy when I see one in a blue moon.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Don't forget that Lexus tried with the GS many years ago. RWD with I6 and V8 power. Too bad no manual transmission was offered.

     

    I still think the original GS, which was styled by an Italian design outfit, is a beautiful sedan. I much prefer it, and even the current GS, to the bland looks of the new M.

     

    The GS has been a reliable, safe car. Buyers just never caught on as Lexus hardly promoted it, pushing the LS and ES and SUVs.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Hhahaha! Very well said indeed. I assume any AWD 5 series will be the same system they use in their X SUVs, nice, but no SH-AWD.

     

    Riez, the GS has always been Lexus' "troubled child". The design of the original was pretty nice for '93, but it was hardly the styling slam dunk of the '92 SC. Its unfortunate that the French team that did the new SC wasnt able to even come close to the stellar job that those Calty guys did with the original. The first GS's power and suspension just didnt measure up. The '98 GS400 fixed that, but added a bunch of other problems. Lexus interiors for '98 were uncharacteristically bad, and the '98 GS and RX suffered because they were introduced for '98. Lexus acted pretty quickly to fix its precious baby RX, but the GS never got the interior updates it needed. You can still see the remnants of the sucky '98 interior though when you compare even an '03 RX to the '04.

     

    Part of the problem I think is that Lexus and Infiniti are almost polar opposites. Infiniti does sport, and Lexus does luxury. When they try and compete with each other, for example Q45, and IS, it generally doesnt work well. The IS and GS might be able to change that.. but I seriously doubt that they will outhandle G and M. As to whats going to happen to Q45, no idea. Infiniti will probably kill it off.
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