Luxury Performance Sedans

lexusguy · August 2005

You're not factoring in economies of scale here. If I wanted a pair of Scan Speak Relevator ring-radiator tweeters like Von Schweikert uses in the VR-7 and up, I'd have to pay $900 for them. I seriously doubt VS is paying $450\ea retail though.

I also dont think that car audio premium systems have the kind of markup that ultra hi-end home audio does. Ferrari sold more Enzos in a year than Wilson does WAMMs, so sure, there has to be an outrageous markup there for it to make economic sense for both Wilson Audio and their dealers. Car audio just doesnt work like that.

I do agree though that Bose (in some cases) and HK and all of their subdivisions (also in some cases) can do a pretty good job with the worst kind of "listening room" imaginable. Actually I think the Bose home division could stand to learn from the car division on how to make a system that actually sounds like something. You're probably aware of the saying: "no highs, no lows..."

hpowders · August 2005

If you like the interior in the M, that's good. Enjoy it!
I think the E60 interior is okay but you know what?
After being in the car for 2 weeks, I'm not really paying attention to it much!

docnukem · August 2005

Actually, the matte finish seems to show smudges as much or more than the glossy surfaces I had in may last car. As of now, I am unsure of what I should be cleaning it with. With the glossy stuff, I just used whatever was available (usually a baby wipe). Any suggestions? Someone posted about a high-end furniture polish, but I don't think they named it.

bfeng7 · August 2005

MLS,

I cannot comment on specific systems or talk about specific cost ... for professional and ethical reasons ...

I'm a lifelong BMW customer and fan. Their premium sound was pretty poor 10 years ago (when my e39 was designed). BMW has made great strides forward with audio system sound quality since then.

Cost & Value? Value is a very personal thing. $1800 for you might be a bargain but for me it might not be. Too personal a thing to judge. With respect to cost, remember that dealer cost is a very different animal than what BMW paid their parts suppliers for the audio system components. Consider an alloy wheel. BMW's 2-piece wheels typically list around $500 each. Dealer cost is probably 40% less ($300). I would not be surprised if BMW pays the supplier $150 or less for the wheel.

Sorry I can't say more. How do you like Logic 7?

B
(Bose employee)

docnukem · August 2005

Hey hpowders:

Don't keep on sugar-coating it, tell us really how much you enjoy your car.

bfeng7 · August 2005

Even if you factor in economies of scale, there is a big difference.
Let me present a hypothetical case: Let's say you're doing a woofer. Let say the idea material for the surround in a special butyl that has really nice damping qualities, great stability over the really tough environmental conditions cars live it. I can guarantee you that surround will cost you a LOT more than a treated cloth or an impregnated foam. The cost difference could be several hundred percent.
Ditto the cone material, and nearly every part of that speaker. Now let's extend this to the rest of the audio components (not perfect, but it's a ballpark). That 100% or 200% difference will cascade down to you, and you'd be paying $4k rather than $1500 for a branded premium sound option. Plus, let's say the automaker is only willing to go to this better system for their top luxury cars. How many M45's are sold every year compared to Chevy Tahoes?

Regarding your comments on markup ... do you work in the automotive audio OEM business? If not, how do you know what your saying is true?

Finally comment. Like all companies with a diverse group of "divisions," it is often the case that one division will have a very different mandate than another division.
Take Toyota. Their priorities and goals are VERY different from Corolla to LS430.
The same company that makes the M45 (Renault/Nissan) makes some really low end, bare-bones, stuff for other markets. Harman does everything from Revel to stuff that I rank down there with Cerwin Vega. What I'm saying is don't judge Bose automotive by your impressions of Bose home products ...

B
(Bose employee)

markcincinnati · August 2005

Quoting myself:

"If you don't give a hoot about DVD-Audio, I am confident you will find the Audi Audio system to be "among the finest."

I am not too concerned that the B&O system will be a step backward -- yet I wonder if B&O really is more about "show" than "go," time will tell."

And, earlier in the post I said perhaps BOSE is overexposed.

I REALLY like my Audi A6's "premium" sound system by Bose.

B&O will certainly provide the listener with a fine experience, perhaps better than the BOSE experience (I assume that is Audi's intention, anyway.)

I am not opposed to see Audi go with a more "upscale" NAME -- but I also have no belief, until I hear it, that it will be a KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF experience either. The BOSE systems in the M Infiniti's and Audi A6's are among the best I have ever heard -- I would wonder what the Audi's speakers and amps would do with a DVD-Audio disc, but the availability of content in DVD-Audio is even lower than the availability of HDTV programs.

The CD and Sirius playback in "surround rear" mode is at least a "9" on the 1-10 scale, and if that is my evaluation, I would say the Infiniti M top o the line BOSE system is at least a "9.5" (with DVD-Audio as the source).

If my post was sounding as if it was anti-BOSE in the Audi (and/or Infiniti) applications, it was not intended to be so.

Indeed, my Audi A6 has the best factory car system in a car that I have ever owned. Only the Infinti M and Acura TL's DVD-Audio edges it out slightly.

I am certain that Audi felt it needed a "snootier" name -- Linn, too, would have filled that bill. BOSE needs, IMHO, to come out with an "elite" branding product if it wants to keep corporate customers like Audi. Perception, sometimes, is reality.

markcincinnati · August 2005

Local radio car-talk show subject one week was gasoline.

What I think I learned:

#1 if the car will run fine on regular according to the mfg, it is a waste to use mid or higher grade

#2 if the car is specified to be able to run on regular but clearly states it requires 91 or 93 (premium, i.e.) is is a false economy to use regular and ends up -- over time -- costing more than using premium in the first place (a false economy? a dumb economy, if you asked me -- hence I always use premium in both my Audi's 3.2 FSI and BMW 3.0 engines.)

#3 the difference between "top tier" (e.g. Shell V-Power) and another non-top tier gasoline can be that the top tier gas has 5 times the amount of engine cleaning additives -- and, again over time, the cost of using a non-top-tier gasoline could be a false economy. This is a bummer, for here in Cincinnati it is NOT always easy to find Chevron or Shell "when you need it."

I do the "best I can" to fill up with top tier gas -- sometimes I slip (truth be told, probably 50% of the time, I am not close to a top tier retailer so I take another "name brand" instead.)

Drive it like you live. :shades:

hpowders · August 2005

Well, now that you mention it....

lexusguy · August 2005

I dont work in the OEM car audio market. What I'm saying is the WAMMs are (or were) something like $250,000 a pair last time I checked, unless somebody else has come out with something more expensive, in which case Wilson will have raised the price. They pride themselves on having the world's most expensive speakers. Their ads in TAS dont even show speakers, but their own cabinent material which they make themselves using military lasers and imported rock dust from Pluto, which is "14x more expensive than mdf". I seriously doubt Wilson spends more than 5 figures on production costs. The rest is from the fact that they make like 6 of them in a year, and that Dave Wilson and his team home deliver and install them.

Would Toyota take a loss on putting a ML system in every SC430 made? No way. But I also seriously doubt there's a 70%+ markup there.

I'm not judging Bose auto products based the "Acoustimass" stuff. What I was saying is I think Bose auto products are the best sounding products the company makes, and if the 901 is ever replaced this century, the guys working on the follow up should listen to the M45 stereo to get some ideas.

bfeng7 · August 2005

Actually a couple more comments.

Let's take you VR-7 example. Let's say VR pays $300 for these tweeters.
Add to the mix the need for integrated connector, redesign of materials to withstand automotive environmental/mechanical/green requirements. Add back the need to implement end-of-line automotive level quality testing. Plus, ScanSpeak has to redesign the basket/frame to fit into the physical space the automaker has given you. Despite all this, let's say economies of scale could cut this price by a factor of x3. Now we're at $100 for a tweeter. You, Lexusguy Corporation needs 4 tweeters to do a system. Let's say you need 5 midrange drivers and 1 subwoofer and they price out the same as the tweeter. You are up to $1000 without an amp or dsp processor.
What would it cost you to make a 10 channel amp with room correction DSP for all channels? Don't forget it has to have an optical MOST bus interface. Then add in the DVD-A compatible headunit. How about $750 for the entire electronics package. Your total system cost is $1750 .. not counting ANY capital investments or overhead costs you have to run your audio company. It seems reasonable if you sell it to the automaker for $3500, and it seems reasonable for them to mark it up another 100% to make retail $7000.

What do you think? Nuts or reasonable guestimate?

B

lexusguy · August 2005

"BOSE needs, IMHO, to come out with an "elite" branding product if it wants to keep corporate customers like Audi. Perception, sometimes, is reality."

Agree. Its the same idea that brought about Sony "Qualia". Sony's Qualia 10 headphones in my opinion beat the pants off the vaunted Grado RS1s and Sennheiser HD650s. Nobody would buy them though if they were sold at you're average Circuit City or Best Buy.

lexusguy · August 2005

I'm with you every step of the way except for the 100% automaker markup. Why is that necessary, especially in a case like the SC430 where every car is equiped with the system?

ksoman · August 2005

as a customer of bmw, bmw damn well give me real wood for the prices i pay.

and as a stockholder of nissan, they better damn well not use real wood for the affordable price at which they sell the M....

lol

ksso

ksoman · August 2005

if it's real wood, use a real wood cleaner. don't trust anything else.

markcincinnati · August 2005

Don't want to cause any arguments, since we ARE, after all, talking subjectively -- but. . . .

The last couple of BMW's I tested had that dreadful black gloss wood in a car with black dash, headliner and seats -- thank god I didn't have a knife, I might have slit my wrists just for some COLOR.

OK, it wasn't THAT bad, but black wood? Black gloss wood -- if I wanted the black and gloss look, personally I would probably opt for carbon fiber.

OTOH, I just picked up my A6 (took it in to have the 5,000 mile service about 900 miles early) and looked at an A8L W12 and an S4. The wood in the A8L was fantastic, wonderful, darn near humbling -- no wonder the car's sticker was $128,000+ (the headliner was Amaretto alcantara and the dashboard was stitched leather and it even had a built in fridge for wine and cheese to please whilst watching the dual screen DVD CHANGER; the seats were perforated Amaretto sports seats front and rear.)

The S4, black with a grey interior with carbon fiber trim and/or the "grey ash gloss wood" -- darn near as depressing as the aforementioned BMW, but no where near enough to make me contemplate my own bloodshed.

Then I get into my A6 with the Amaretto interior and the Audi glossy "wood colored" wood -- beautiful.

Of course, I also thought the M35X with the bourbon interior and matte rosewood was very good looking (better than the BMW and not quite as nice as the Audi, but one that I could easily have lived with.)

The BMW interior wood, when in black, just seems IMHO to contribute to a feeling of "starkness" (as in that old Youngblood's song, "Starkness, Starkness. . .be my pillow. . .") that these other cars with their dark or light brown glossy or matte real wood lack, replacing starkness with warmth.

But like we all say, "To each her/his own. . ."

Don't get me started on the Black exterior, black satin alloys, black tinted windows and windshield, black leather dash, headliner, seats and interior wood trim BMW 5's that seem to always be in "plentiful" supply here at River City BMW dealerships (has BMW uncovered a new market. . .Goth?)

Shudder.

cmybimmergo · August 2005

I just wipe with a dry diaper (cloth; left over from my kids), but any soft cotton cloth will do. If there is something that won't come off I dampen it slightly. I don't bother with special cleaners and I never have a problem.

ksoman · August 2005

i had to reread your sentence several times, but i'm darn sure you wrote:

dry diaper left over from my kids???

just teasing :P

ksoman · August 2005

well i've never personally liked darker woods, i prefer lighter woods. the bmw in my garage has lighter wood in it and i've light maple hardwood and natural tone cherry in the house so i kinda agree with you on the dark wood.

oh wait, i forgot, my definitive tower speakers are all in high polished piano gloss black wood finish... but those things sound so nice, i'll make an exception.

why don't i see kdshapiro jump back into the discussion to tow the bmw official line?

as i've said before, the only car i think that looks decent, ok, not just decent, but simply lovely in this category is the A6, inside and out. i personally love the E, it looks timeless and classy in my personal biased opinion and i'm absolutely not turned off by the bmw 5 looks. Though i tend to be partial towards japanese cars due to quality considerations, i have concluded in my biased personal opinion that all 3 [non-permissible content removed] missed the boat by 5000 miles in the looks department, GS, RL, M. The more I see them the more i realize that though none of the 3 are offending and each one is lovely in some way, their looks just refuse to grow on me.... specially the RL disappoints me because i LOVE the way the TL stands and thought the RL might get an aggresive bearing like that.

biased forever and always right

ksso

hpowders · August 2005

It would also be nice if comfort seats and the fold down rear seat were standard on the 545i.
The 2 of these cost me around $1500 as extras.
Had to cash in 5.5 GOOG shares for those 2 options.

markcincinnati · August 2005

No no, the phrase is:

"Often wrong, NEVER uncertain!" :shades:

docnukem · August 2005

Or, "not always right, but never in doubt."

lexusguy · August 2005

My Mirage OMs are the same way, but its not really wood though, there's no grain or anything like that, just solid polished black. The Mirage end caps look much better than the black wood thats in the 5 or GS. The only car in the catergory that has solid black laquer like the Mirage or Def Techs is the JDM version of the M, the Nissan Fuga.

bfeng7 · August 2005

Where are the best sources of profit on a car.
The dealer can't charge you a markup just for sticking tires on it or giving you a steering wheel. Options, on the otherhand, are something you are willing to pay OVER the base price for .... It's just like a restaurant ... where the real profit is in the wine, not the bread.

B
(Bose Employee)

bfeng7 · August 2005

Now that I've exposed myself, I guess you have someone to [non-permissible content removed] to if you have problems with our product or if there are things you don't like ...

B

lovemyclk · August 2005

Doesn't the Jag XJ use the black lacquered "piano wood" in the center stack? Can be quite attractive if paired with polished aluminum accents. I have the Mirage M5's (bi-polar) in my listening room and love the "2001 - A Space Odessey Obelisk" look. Of course, the sound is remarkable - especially with something out there like Flim & the BB's "Big Notes".

My TiAg e39SP has the charcoal leather with the Valvonna wood trim. It is kinda' stark, but this car is all about driving. I look at luxury from the engineer's perspective with this car, not from a sybarritic perspective as might be the case with the GS/LS or even e-Class

bfeng7 · August 2005

You just made my day...

I very specifically interviewed with only the automotive division here and not home division... because the car division's mandate was a better fit for what I want to do in life. The Home division is a very wonderful division and they do really cool stuff, but they have a whole different set of needs they need to cater to.

Do you get my drift?

B

janssen · August 2005

I am fascinated by the commonality of these two threads, running through this thread:

I like/don't like the wood (or, the wood is nice/the wood is bad)

I like/don't like the sound (or, the sound is nice/the sound is bad)

Just my two cents:

There is a big difference between LIKING something and your opinion changing reality. While the wood in the Infiniti is rosewood, real, and expensive (many connoisseurs can appreciate this nice and difficult to get material), the fact that you don't like the way it looks doesn't change the intrinsic qualities of the wood. The lack of knowledge should not affect whether or not you like something, but the quality remains even when one makes a condescending remark.

So the real rosewood is nice to those who have the experience and knowledge to appreciate it. Those who don't understand or appreciate can understand and appreciate some other factor in their car. None of us would have our wives' diamonds appraised by a pawn shop. So let us leave those who don't know wood rarity or quality alone.

The same should go, IMO, for sound systems. I am sorry to see 'B' get any grief at all for taking the time and effort to explain the finer details of SPL or the systems in those cars he is familiar with (or she is...). The Bose system can be good for the money, but certainly is NOT Dynaudio speakers and JL amps (pick your favorite brands...). So those you say this system is not really high-end should merely state their opinion (that they are not satisfied) and be entitled to that opinion. Of course, the actual quality of the system does not change because someone disses or praises it. So comments like "the wood looks like cardboard" is quite obviously derogatory and inflammatory, but shows no level of judgment that we should take as fact. Similarly, someone commenting on the lack of bass or highs or separation on the Bose system may just have no real experience or knowledge. 'B' 's point about the cost of these systems and the capability of altering the sound environment should be factored into our judgment of that system, and our expectations that go with it.

Personally, I don't know why any manufacturer would cover up wood with very dark or opaque lacquer. Why not put in a nice plastic with lacquer or graphite, and not waste the wood and spend the money that could otherwise go elsewhere in the car?

In sum, opinion is opinion, nothing more. Perhaps we can separate opinion from fact.

cmybimmergo · August 2005

Sure. My youngest is 13 (yikes!!) and they've aged like a fine wine. Puts a wonderful patina on the wood (kind of like the way the Indians used to tan hides). :P

kyfdx · August 2005

..is just your opinion....

Not saying I don't agree with you.... but, issues of quality can definitely be matters of opinion, not fact...

And, if someone thinks it looks like cardboard... then that is their opinion... whether they are educated or not...

Sometimes... connoisseurs can't see past the price tag...

regards,
kyfdx
(the preceding is fact, but you may consider it my opinion, if it makes you feel better)

janssen · August 2005

Appraising houses is fact/opinion, but you wouldn't have little Harold down the street appraise your house.

Just my opinion.

janssen · August 2005

Issues of desirability or likability may be opinion, but true quality is judged by those who know the value of any commodity through experience and knowledge.

Many of those who say otherwise just want free license to judge without putting in the time to learn.

markcincinnati · August 2005

I don't have many issues with the Bose applications that I have enjoyed in my cars for years. Bose seems to be two completely unrelated companies: Bose home audio and Bose car audio.

The LPS guys who use Bose as their "signature" sound providers have, especially recently, brought fantastic sound to cars. Bose systems in the home are "OK" for non-critical applications, but generally speaking, Bose needs (as I repeat myself) to have an elite or enhanced product line in both the home and the car to lessen the overexposure issue.

Sony has Sony ES, Pioneer and [Pioneer] Elite, etc etc etc.

I was listening to a Mark Anthony CD (set to surround rear at about 75% surround level) in my A6 this afternoon and the sound was terrific. It almost made me forget about DVD-Audio. Yet go into a health club that has the Bose cubes all over and a sub-woofer here and there or into a Bose demo room in a home theater store and that phrase "no highs, no lows, must be. . . ." leaps to mind.

Frankly I have often thought of B&O as "good sound" and great design and style -- maybe even GREAT sound from time to time (but not worth the money.)

Audi, IMHO, has a terrific sound system in their new A6's and A8's and it is the Bose system. The Infiniti M's are even better and they too are Bose. What experience actually does B&O have in cars? Probably they are great in theory, and will become great in practice, but the current A6 and A8's have outstanding factory sound systems.

I am not even going to discuss aftermarket -- since that is simply a matter of the thickness of the stack of one hundred dollar bills one is willing to spend to get to some level of sound. These LPS cars premium sound systems should be "premium" -- not that that implies they cannot be outdone when price is removed as a constraint.

This is a completely made up statement, but one that I generally do think is correct, "Bose systems in cars such as the Infiniti M and Audi's A6 and A8 are among the best sounding systems available." I really like the Acura systems -- I dunno, are they Bose too. The Lexus system is undoubtedly great or greater than great too -- I dunno, I heard it at somewhat low volume at the auto show. Heck, the Lexus system ought to be the best -- for the money -- it ought to make coffe for the price premium as I understand it.

I am no fan of Bose home theater systems for the home, but color me a supporter and fan of the Bose applications in at least two of the LPS cars discussed here.

Just remember: "WEBN" -- we eliminate banal noise.

kdshapiro · August 2005

It depends on which side of the fence you sit. If you're the seller the appraisal is a fact, if you're a buyer it's an opinion.

janssen · August 2005

?

Tell that to the banks that refinance houses, finance first mortgages for houses, do second loans for houses...

My opinion would be that these banks know what they're doing. Tell them your 'opinion' of your house's value, and see what reaction you get.

When you get your mortgage, or refinance, you will be forced to use the appraisal, performed by a person who has trained significantly, and has many rigorous criteria to meet in ongoing certification. So no matter your opinion, the appraisal is the appraisal.

Now there may be someone who falls in love with your house and way overpays. That doesn't change the appraisal.

The next person could refuse to pay half the value of your house. Doesn't change the appraisal.

And as the seller of the house, you KNOW that the appraisal is STILL the current value to the bank, or related to the general population of houses in the neighborhood. If there is one outlier who wants to pay more or less, they are entitled to offer that. But those offers don't change how the trained people in the world, those who have experience and training at valuing houses, see the value of your house.

One more example: While you might personally look at an Amati and say, "Old and beat", a violin expert would say, "Get your hands offa that thing!". And there would be people who have expertise, and have trained to recognize the differences between good and bad violins, who would pay a heck of a lot for that Amati. And would have to go through those banks, and those appraisers to get the money to buy that old thang!

So value is not based on ANY person's opinion.

lexusguy · August 2005

I think I get what you're saying. Though if it were me (and I'm certainly not a loudspeaker designer, I'm more of an arm chair designer, I'd guess you could say) I'd want to make a real flagship for the home side that doesnt need an EQ in order to produce proper sound and isnt generally regarded among serious audiophiles as a joke. In my opinion, Bose has the general idea right - a loudspeaker should produce a mix of direct and reflected sound, and not force you into a vice-grip "sweet spot", as most of the hifi mag reviewers seem to prefer. The 901 design is just not the right way to do it.

Mirage and Definitive do I think the best job that can be done with dynamic drivers, but they have their drawbacks. Electrostats and Magnaplanars are another way, but they of course have other drawbacks. The only perfect, omni-directional speaker I've ever had the amazing pleasure of hearing is the MBL 101E Radialstrahler. If you've never heard this speaker, you must, simple as that. Its absolutely brilliant design and engineering, the loudspeaker equivalent of the Sistine Chapel. At $45K for the pair, its also a screaming bargain, as I've never heard anything else at any price that sounds anywhere near as good.

kdshapiro · August 2005

"And as the seller of the house, you KNOW that the appraisal is STILL the current value to the bank, or related to the general population of houses in the neighborhood."

Actually the value of the house is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what it appraises for. I've seen many a house that couldn't see for it's appraised value, while some houses sold for more. Obviously if you want to sell or refi you want the highest value, while buyers want the lowest value.

As I said it depends on which side of fence you sit. We always look for the correct version of the truth.

pat · August 2005

... but could we talk about the cars for a while instead of all these peripheral subjects? :confuse:

janssen · August 2005

Actually the value of the house is what someone is willing to pay for it, not what it appraises for.

And in my area, people are smart enough to check with the experts, check comps in the area, and make intelligent decisions. If someone says, that house is in a terrible area, and they are referring to Pac Heights, so be it. They don't have to buy it. Doesn't change Pac Heights or those who are smart enough to know the values there.

Since we are discussing the sound systems and comparing wood trim in various brands and models, allow me to add the following:

All of these cars sell, and all have very, very strong selling points. The differences are small. For those who like shiny black lacquer covering up wood entirely, there are choices. For those who want aluminum or brushed stainless steel, there are choices. For those who appreciate a plug 'n play stereo that sounds good to them, fine. But there are also those who consider themselves well-versed in trim or audio. Those people may choose differently.

But for any of these groups to denigrate these great cars sounds self-serving and silly. I would again point out the difference between opinion and fact. Perhaps we could all post here starting with, "I think that..."

But then we wouldn't get such colorful responses!

warthog · August 2005

Everyone connected to the mortgage business knows that 99% of the time the loan appraisal magically comes out to the amount it needs to, often to the penny, in order for the deal to close. The people doing the appraisals might be "trained signficantly [with] many rigorous critieria" as you say, but little of that is put to use in the typical loan appraisal.

Appraisals for litigation purposes (divorce, condemnation, or whatever) will vary greatly, depending on which party is paying the appraiser.

pat · August 2005

enough with the housing deals and the overindulgence in the nuances of the stereo world.

We need to talk about the cars.

senneca01 · August 2005

Everything in the M35/M45 looks and feels to be higher quality than the 5-Series. The lower 2/3'rds of the dash in a 5-Series seems to be made of plastic. Lower door panels, lower console, lower trim, etc...

On the subject of woods, I find some of BMW's choices to be questionable. Some of the glossy woods look to be completely fake for some reason. I find the same impression on the Acura RL, which looks fake as well. BMW's matte finish looks more real, but still doesn't compare to Infiniti's version. The one in BMW's cars feels a little thin. It kind of seems like BMW didn't bother to do any detail work on it.

bfeng7 · August 2005

Go listen to the new Dynaudio system in the Passat.

All the bass comes from speakers in the door (why would making earth shaking bass in a door ... full of loose moving parts ... be a problem?).
Listen at a realistic concert level (live, acoustic music please). How do you like that treble? How's the deep bass? Are the violins on the left, the celli on the right, and the violas, and main vocalists straight ahead? As you listen from the left to the right, is the height of the sound stage pretty consistent or does it droop down below the dashboard at the extremes. and so forth.

After you've had your critical listening, please come back and tell me how good you thing Dynaudio does OEM audio.

B

pat · August 2005

If you want to persist in talking about the various nuances of audio systems in vehicles, please go to our Aftermarket & Accessories board and either join an appropriate discussion or create one.

You are turning many discussions into deep debates over these issues and that's not appropriate. I've already asked that we get back to the cars themselves and I mean it.

If you have questions, please email me. Thank you.

hpowders · August 2005

Yeah. Right.

jjacura · August 2005

Ditto!

hihomike · August 2005

Re: Wood

Amazing how folks see things differently.
The wood in my BMW 545i looks like real wood to me.
The wood in the M35/45 looked like cardboard to me.
Different strokes for different folks.

...I own an 06 530i and an 06 M35, both with wood interiors. The wood in the BMW looks like real wood to me, too. The wood in the M35 doesn't look like wood, but when you put your finger tips across the Rosewood, you know it is real.

Matte finishes look good on a dining room table or fine piece of furniture, but in an automobile, I don't particularly care for it.

If the wood in the M series were was not Rosewood, it might look better, but each to his/her own.

msu79gt82 · August 2005

... but could we talk about the cars for a while instead of all these peripheral subjects?

I suppose there is a fine line about where a discussion is on topic or off; but we are talking LPS here where the L stands for Luxury. By definition Luxury necessitates a certain quality level of the leather, wood, sound system, etc. Since we are discussing LPS, then it would seem that discussions (especially in a comparative sense) of "building" material (and craftsmanship) should be allowed to some appropriate degree.

E.g. "I like the looks of the wood in LPS A better than LPS B." However I think some folks are out of line by falsely accusing LPS C of using cheap fake wood. I suppose ditto for sound systems.

So where to draw the line? :confuse: :shades:

pat · August 2005

Uh, we draw the line when we stray from keeping the primary focus on the cars themselves, those that are identified in the topic line above.

I hear ya on the features and yes that conversation has been allowed to a certain degree

. Guess I'm saying that degree has been exceeded lately, so we need to get back to the primary subject.

:shades:

jjacura · August 2005

Once in a while the stray talk proves to reveal some interesting non-related information. Afterall where else would LPS forum readers ever have heard about and see MBL 101E Radialstrahler omni-directional speakers priced at $45,000 a pair :shades: , thanks to LexusGuy. Now if only Acura could mass produce a mini version of these and put them in the 2007 RL .......whew!!

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