Luxury Performance Sedans

designman · January 2005

The 06 GS interior is one of the best. Just close your eyes before you climb in and you're set.

lexusguy · January 2005

It is very good. Autospies has some new pictures with the actual electronics turned on in a GS300, it looks great. The center stack is so clean compared to the typical thoughtless clutter of '98.

bmwdoug · January 2005

The M45 looks like an Altima on steroids. It may be very well be a great car, but the reality is that BMW owns the prestige factor with the public. And, the other reality is that many people buy cars in this price range to make an image statement. Nothing wrong with doing that. In fact, the auto companies market their cars in this price segment to image. I don't believe an infiniti or Acura will ever replace a BMW or Benz in terms of status. And, again, status is a major factor in this segment. If status is not a factor, then the Marketing companies have been wasting money.

lexusguy · January 2005

Never say never. Lexus is 15 years old. Mercedes is over 100 years old. I would say Lexus has done a remarkable job of aquiring the amount of prestige for their badge in such a short amount of time. Prestige or not, if BMWs are ugly and the electronics are unusuable, people wont buy.

jrock65 · January 2005

3 is a 1 series on steroids, 5 is a 3 on steroids, 7 is a 5 on steroids...

Agree with you about status and prestige. The pricier the car, the more impt image becomes. Right now, BMW has a HUGE leg up on Infiniti in that department. It's not even close. Main reason why comparable Bimmers are about 20% more expensive.

I wouldn't say Infiniti will never catch up though.

lexusguy · January 2005

It also hasnt taken long for Infiniti resale on "Ghosn Infinitis" to skyrocket. Just compare residuals for an I35 vs a G35.

jrock65 · January 2005

That's true. The resale of the G, FX, and the QX are quite strong.

More and more people are noticing Infiniti. Still, Infiniti doesn't even come close to touching the prestige and image of BMW.

footie · January 2005

The great unwashed listen to and read the BMW/Benz prestige ads and marketing literature and lust for the product.

The long time owners and fans have to support that image and prestige by buying an supporting the marque.

The growing awareness and articles in places like the Wall Street Journal about product reliability, and observations in trend setting magazines about poor styling are moving the owner fan base to cooler cars that actually deliver on their promise without being butt-ugly, hard to use and hard to live with.

At the high end of the food chain, what you have the least of is time.

03accordman · January 2005

'The M45 looks like an Altima on steroids'

Not really, though I must agree with you that looks are subjective. To me, the new BMW style trend looks like Pontiac's (front end), and a slightly open trunk a from the rear (7 Series), so as I said, looks are subjective.

Most publications have loved the M45, and its getting reviews just like the G35 did, when it came out.

How much it can compete with the 5 series, well, car to car, it does look like a winner, but obviously, the M45 has to fight the BMW name, and that would probably take time. The G35 is largely looked at as a serious 3 series competitor, and I have a feeling the M will be that to the 5 series, in a year or so.

jrock65 · January 2005

MSRP released for 2006 M:

M35: $39,900

M35 AWD: $42,400

M35 Sport: $42,700

M45: $46,750

M45 Sport: $49,550

Destination (not included): $610

http://www.nissannews.com/

jrock65 · January 2005

Those prices are pretty good. I'm surprised that Nissan released them so early. Usually, they wait until a few days before release. Maybe they want potential buyers to "hold off" from buying an RL or the 5 in January and February.

kyfdx · January 2005

The prices are aimed squarely at the Lexus GS.. which would be their main competition, IMO.

jrock65 · January 2005

http://www.nissannews.com/infiniti/news/pricing/2006_m_pricing.pd- f

lexusguy · January 2005

Agree, they make the RL look over priced, which.. well it kind of is.

kyfdx · January 2005

Not with those option prices.. Looks like you could get an M35 AWD way up over $50K.. What the heck is the premium package, and why does it cost $10K??? Tell me that is a typo, please..

jrock65 · January 2005

You add the Journey and Tech packages to the M35 AWD, and the final price is $50,000, about the same as the RL.

The Premium Package includes the Journey and Tech packages, plus DVD RES and heated power rear seats.

jrock65 · January 2005

Comparing the M to the 5 with similar features:

M35 plus Journey and Tech: $47,460

530i plus Cold Weather, Premium Sound, Premium Package, Steptronic, Xenon, Active Cruise, Navi, Satellite radio: $57,115

kyfdx · January 2005

always cost more... always have, and probably always will..

The whole marketing scheme for Lexus, Acura and Infiniti was to offer comparable cars for less money... I don't think that has changed any... I don't see any of them trying to market against BMW and Mercedes without a price advantage...

regards,

kyfdx

cove148 · January 2005

lexus guy,

Did you see the prices on the new avalon that came out today? Top of the line limited MSRP $33.5K, zero to 60 in 6.6, with a mpg rating of 22 city/31 highway.

lexusguy · January 2005

Actually, doesnt the STS V8 at least sticker above $60K, just like the Germans? A bit of wishful thinking by GM, perhaps.

Cove, no I hadnt seen that yet. Where is this info?

cove148 · January 2005

lexus guy,

see post #912 in toyota,avalon/2005

The RL was my top choice. Eliminated it because of the problems showing up on this board, especially worried about the AWD. Live in a southern state with no snow, so a FWD will work, the redesigned avalon, for the money, looks good.

lexusguy · January 2005

You arent interested in GS300 or M35? If you have no snow, those RWD sport sedans should be able to handily outperform the FWD Avalon. How does it handle, by the way? Its got the power, but what have they done with the suspension?

cove148 · January 2005

GS- 245hp vs Avalon's 280hp is a whip for a much more expensive car. The M35 looks good. Avalon just introduced today, won't be in dealers until feb. No idea on suspension, would appreciate any comments you might have on it, bunch of postings with pics & specs today.

jrock65 · January 2005

It really boggles me that Toyota would make the Avalon faster than the GS300. The Avalon won't hold a candle to the GS's handling, however.

Not that people buy the Avalon for handling.

mg808 · January 2005

Its a tough to pass up a loaded Avalon for $38K, granted, a slush-box 5speed auto and FWD, but at least you save $15K on a underpowered GS300 AWD / BMW 525i / Audi 3.2. It might not handle like a Lexus or German luxo but still, who's driving through cones at 60mph ? This car might steal some sales from the GS and especially the RL and who knows, maybe toyota give a discount to 30somethings and they might start buying these values...you never know.

lexusguy · January 2005

I still fail to see the logic as well. Seems like it should be the other way around, doesnt it?

kyfdx · January 2005

Don't ask me about Cadillac... I don't think GM has any kind of definable "plan".

It is tough running a car business, when your biggest expense is pension plan payments....

kyfdx · January 2005

Well.. the Avalon is new.. the GS is an old design, and a completely different car..

I think it is just a timing problem.. which will be straightened out with the new GS...

I'm guessing the new GS300 will likely be in the $45K+ range, once you load up the options... And, being RWD, I don't think Toyota/Lexus considers them competitors...

If I worked at Toyota, I would be more concerned with cannibalization of the ES300..

regards,

kyfdx

lexusguy · January 2005

yeah thats kind of an issue. The ES330 has to run basically unchanged until 2007, meanwhile the Avalon is all new with a significantly more modern and more powerful engine. The interior is also so good that while ES330 is still better, its not THAT much better.

r1_97 · January 2005

Good point. The Wall St. Jrl. of Jan 10th ran a critical article describing BMW's decline. Loyal BMW owners are reluctant to acknowledge the decline of their brand. The Japanese are rapidly closing the gap on performance and have already surpassed BMW on reliability. As for prestige/image, it lags, but will follow the trend. I remember when Cadillac was THE prestige brand.

kyfdx · January 2005

Well.. how do you define "decline".

Is it perception? or sales?

I remember Cadillac being "the" prestige brand as well... but, then.. I am very old...

lexusguy · January 2005

Japan passed BMW reliability 20 years ago. Recently the AMERICANS have passed BMW reliability. Europe is now ranked last for that.

kyfdx · January 2005

The decline in the brand is strictly on a reliability basis?

I have news for you... The BMWs of the '90s were the least reliable they have ever made... That is why they had to start the "free" maintenance program...(and also, why the Japanese luxury brands took so much market share). Reliability has been going nowhere but up since '99...

So, again I ask... is the decline brand image or sales? Because, BMW had its best year ever last year, from a sales perspective..

r1_97 · January 2005

You ask whether the decline is in reference to sales or image and go on to say the sales are the best ever. I guess you answered your own question but I suggest you read the Jan 10th Wall Street Journal for a more insightful analysis.

kyfdx · January 2005

WSJ should probably stick to investments.. Most of their car "news" is just rehashed word-of-mouth... "insightful" is not a word I would use to describe the article..

I guess one could say the brand image is in decline... but, sales sure doesn't seem to back that up...

regards,

kyfdx

hpowders · January 2005

CR in its October issue has the 5 series at CR's most unreliable rating. That has probably affected sales a bit. A lot of folks are influenced by CR ratings whatever they are worth.

kyfdx · January 2005

I agree... I pay attention to those ratings, myself..

But, so far, the "new" 5-series is only 15 months old.. I take initial quality scores with a grain of salt... Plus, still under warranty for now.. If the '05s continue that trend, then they might start to have some problems.. The E39 5-series also had some teething problems when it came out in the '97 model year... That car went on to garner some of the best CR reliability scores any BMW has ever had..

regards,

kyfdx

hpowders · January 2005

I recently attended a party on LI's North Shore-a who's who of luxury sedans lined up outside. Needless to say, I spent a lot of time in the parking lot. Many great new cars! The car that had me in a trance was, believe it or not, a silver 2004 BMW 530i-so much better looking than the photos would have you believe. Call it revisionist thinking but this Bangle design will grow on you. A humbling experience.

I hope the reliability rating in CR's April issue improves a bit for this car.

kdshapiro · January 2005

I don't understand it myself, all the BMW bashing and they had their best year ever?

lexusguy · January 2005

So.. reliability has gone from squat to squat-and-a-half? The old 7 was horrible, and so is the new one. The 5 series relability seems to be much worse than the previous car. The 3 series has generally been good.. for BMW.. but I'm sure there will be a host of iDrive problems to muck that up in a hurry when the new car hits.

jrock65 · January 2005

Yep, BMW ain't going anywhere and their overall U.S. sales were up last year.

However, their car sales were down 5% last year, while MB, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura car sales were all up.

U.S. sales of the 3, 5, and 7 were all down in 2004 compared to 2003.

Even so, the 3 and the 5 still outsell their Japanese competitors, so it all depends on the angle you want to look at it.

gold233790 · January 2005

BMW has always been more expensive than the Japanese. However......

BMW is looking to tap the mid 30's and up market for their 5 series, and in doing so have made it VERY inexpensive to lease these vehicles in relation to their msrp. Lexus does a decent job of satisfying their customers in this regard, but Infiniti RARELY does- same with Acura. I currently lease a 530i for $630 a month. An RL with a 2k lower sticker would lease for $300 more a month, and a similarly equipped Audi would be in excess of $100 more.

Then, when you are discussing a lease, reliability is less of an issue. Still there, but if I know I'm not paying a dime for whatever goes wrong with the car for the amount of time it is in my hands? Not going to be a deciding factor for me.

If I were to lease a well equipped G35 AWD right now for the same terms as my BMW 530i it would run me about $35 less per month to do so. Hmm...

jrock65 · January 2005

An RL leases for $930 per month right now? Wow, surprising.

How much down and for how many months is that?

hpowders · January 2005

"When you are discussing a lease, reliability is less of an issue...I'm not paying a dime for whatever goes wrong with the car."

Oh yeah? Tell that to the folks who also leased a new 5 series who get stuck on a highway or lonely, dark road at night when idrive decides to malfunction paralyzing the car.

gold233790 · January 2005

I am certain those instances are quite rare. RL's are having occasional cold start issues right now- but it's Acura, so they get a pass. Also, the intelligent key is causing occasional problems in Audi and Acura where the car is not recognizing the key in the owner's hand and not allowing a start. The absolute miniscule percentage that the I-drive will malfunction in that absolute worst possible time is really not a factor in 99% of people's decisions.

By the way, the lease #'s I was talking about were all $0 down.

hpowders · January 2005

For the well-informed consumer, idrive malfunctions are very real concerns. CR has given the Bangleized 5 series its WORST reliability rating in its October, 2004 issue. I don't remember a 5 series reliability rating from CR being this poor. The vehicle they tested for the June, 2004 issue(2004 530i) had an idrive malfunction. A lot of folks are influenced by CR reliability ratings. If this rating does not improve, many folks who were thinking of leasing/buying this vehicle, myself included, will not. The problems are real. They are far from miniscule.

steven9179 · January 2005

has anyone noticed no air flow out of the rear compartment vents??? It seems that the front air distribution is mainly out the side vents (which is fine with me), but no or nominal rear ventilation????

Steve

PS-yes, the rear vent is in the "Open" position

igiban · January 2005

I for one know many people got into BMW or MB despite knowing that their reliability is not very good. A few want some additional performances while many simply want the badge to 'silence the crowd'. It's not that they don't see black circles in CR a negative, but just that it's a trade off they are willing to make, esp. for those who have been driving boringly safe reliable Japanese for their lives. Time to up the ante/spice and take some risk, esp. when all of their friends and relatives are doing that.

No that every bimmer and merc would then break down prematurely, but it's evidentally at a higher %. For those who got burned, esp. for those who are in it for image, many did regret. Most still hang on to it, because they figured so much (extra) was already spent.

hpowders · January 2005

I hope BMW get its act together. I have driven BMW's since 1993 and I got so spoiled from its excellence that I don't think I can drive anything else. It thus pains me to see this happen to what was such an outstanding auto producer.

designman · January 2005

Though nothing can bring back the hour

Of splendor in the grass, of glory in the flower

We will grieve not, but rather find

Strength in what remains behind.

-William Wordsworth

I had it, and I went with it.

-Ralph

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