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Comments
Regards,
Jose
Merc, LG, KDS et al (where's the man from Kentucky?) here's one for all y'all: my pretty Mrs. is a three-time minvan owner (very much her choice, though I have agreed heartily with the purchases based on task) who hankers for something else. The S has come up in conversation, so I know a premium sedan is in the offing. So between the S, the 7, the LS and the A8, where do the gang's best feelings reside?
I already know my answer (free cookies for the one who guesses), but I thought I'd throw this one to the pack and see who bites and how hard!
The one that I would most like to drive everyday... is the A8..
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It always comes down to what you value the most....
If I had to choose, definitely the BMW 7-Series.
I just thought soliciting open responses on what I consider the players of the class might be interesting.
Keep 'em coming, all.
I think you'd lean towards the A8 that way you can pick up that A3 3.2 DSG at the same time.
M
Yeah, my personal leaning would be A8.
Realistically, LG is correct in that it isn't class of really serious driver's cars to begin with; other elements are in play and weighted heavily. Without doubt, though, to my mind, the big Audi has the interior question nailed down and buttoned up. It's a delight in every aspect. I haven't been in a 7 since the intro, though, so I'm not fully sage enough to comment on it.
Definitely, from the outside, the A8 would make me the happiest as well. And from all I've read, I think the road manners of the Audi would fit my tastes as well.
Thing is it's not for me. And as a daily driver, I personally wouldn't want any of them. I'm much happier with much smaller. BTW, Merc, I still can't decide whether or not to endanger my driving record with the S4 Avant. Won't make that call until the 3.2Q DSG A3 gets here in January. Then I'll know.
She mentioned the S, so I know that's what got her thinking, and I think she'd put the 7 on her drive list, but, and I hate to say it LG, she won't look at the LS. To her it's a Toyota, and that's not a good thing (don't shoot the messenger). It's not a car in it's current iteration that does anything for me, but I wouldn't take it off the test-drive list for any reason. I don't think she'll want to try though.
I just thought it'd be fun to run a brief popularity poll, and see how my interpretation of the segment holds up.
ksso
The fuel mileage of this Bimmer has improved from the first year to date. Now we make on the road/highway 35.5 miles•gallon at an average speed of 75 miles•hour (range 54-132, the latter very occasionally; 96 m•h is not so unusual). In town, the mileage is 19.9 m•g. Our balance is 80% (open road) vs 20% (town). I consider ourselves fortunate enough because of our working at 5.4 miles from home.
Lexusgay posted a commentary about his driving a Diesel Audi in Italy this summer, which incites me to post my experience in driving my 2004 530d. This is the first Diesel I have owned and it has taken a short while to get used to.
As Lexusgay posted, the use of the gear stick is different in Diesels as regards Gasolines. In mi case I have to reach only up to 4,000 r•m to get the max. power and 2,000 the max. torque (which peaks again at 3,000 r•m). This can indeed reduce the gear shifting. I love shifting gears and braking with the engine, however. By the way, braking with the engine cuts almost to 0 the fuel consumption while doing it.
What I usually do is to choose among three classes of driving. The economical one is to keep the engine between 1,000-2,000 r•m. This is for nice romantic rides. The middle class, which gives you enough power and torque for most of the occasions, is to maintain the turns between 2,000-3,000. Finally, the sporty class is to keep them between 3,000 and 4,000. Any of these classes gives you enough opportunities for gear shifting along a winding road. Of course, the fun increases from the first to the third.
As for fuel consumption, the first class of driving keeps it between 57-41 m•g, the second one between 41-35 and the sporty class from 35-28 and less, all of them on a flat road and rounded to an average.
Best regards,
José
PS., Toma! (This is to celebrate Fernando Alonso winning of the F1 championship).
The S4 wagon would endanger your driving record....HMMM...a travelling wagon with a V-8...... and the new A3 is smaller which you said you would be happier with......the price difference is what...$20,000 Heck you can speed in the A-3 and easily pay all the fines with the difference.
She's certainly entitled to her opinion. I'm certainly not the type of Lexus fan that will go on a tirade about how the almighty L will crush the world. No car company is perfect, and that includes Lexus. The LS is hardly the most interesting looking car in its class, and while the interior is very nice...it does not have the beautiful blend of luxury and technology of the A8. The 460 should fix those problems at least. An LS with the rare Eurosport suspension can actually be entertaining to drive - for a big Lexus sedan, but I'm happy with my air springs. What the LS does do, it does brilliantly. It never goes to the shop except when scheduled (and thats 10 years and two cars of that). Driving on PA highways does not require a sports car. In fact, thats pretty much the last thing you want, with the wonderful tire roar and non-stop road patches. When I have to drive 6 or 8 hours on the highway, I want that stuff kept out, and the LS does it better than anybody else.
;-]
The difference is how fast the car gets to "fast" and the (my) childish impulse to use that.
;-]
What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Lexus GS 300, Audi A6, Infiniti M35
Well the tread topic above has gotten bumped out of my price range :surprise:
This is why so many people who love BMW's & Audi's think Asian cars have no soul. It's a given that most of them don't.
The first Asian car that does will knock several people's socks off. There are those who think we're well past the first one. Lexus need not apply. These days, really good reliability is a given. What is there after that?
Time will tell.
Sedan shopping, the LS-430 was the only car on the list. But driving one left me more than cold - it was actually a negative experience to me, and a huge disappointment, yet, I can't say there was anything wrong with the car. I left the dealer wondering what to do next. I then tried out a Q-45, and liked that much much better, but I was quite put off by the dealer and his deal just sucked. Plus, he kept trying to move me to an M-45. I don't LIKE the M, and told him that. HIs response, "Well, we don't sell many Q's". I can see why. I drove an S-500 for a week, and didn't want to give it back. I have never before even considered a German car because of reliability and maintenance expense associated with them. But I have to enjoy the car, and the LS just didn't do it at all.
I've driven a Legend, and it was a fairly entertaining car for a big front driver. Unfortunately when it became the RL for '96, Acura thought it should drive like a Buick. Zero effort steering, lots of body roll. No thanks. I liked the LS400 much better, and I've been driving one since then. Sure, the interior styling was basically the same as the ES and GS, but it was comfortable, quiet, and the Nackamichi stereo sounded better than any thing the Germans had at that point. The '01 LS430 was a massive improvement, but I think it will be the 460 that will finally bring the big Lexus out of its "super camry" shadow and on to the same level as the vaunted Merc and BMW. If Audi can do it, Lexus can do it.
The Infinit M's seem to be able to challenge this.
Lexus cars are, apparenly, emasculated.
Acura's too are not particularly able to embrace "the driving pleasure."
On the other hand, the Germans are designed for pleasure.
This would apparently be my impressions.
Well you know I'm going to vote for the S4 Avant. There is really nothing else like it on the maket. Mercedes doesn't import the C55 Wagon, and if they did it still wouldn't have awd like the S4. BMW doesn't make an M3 wagon and if they did, still no awd. Then there is the Audi interior and exterior. The defintion of style.
Yeah if we're talking about current cars then the A8 gets my vote.
M
The Japanese and the Germans just have different ideas about what makes a "performance" car. Germany builds cars for the Autobahn, and so its best performers are big, powerful GT cars. I think the CL65 basically sums up what German performance is all about. Japan doesnt have that kind of system, and so there is no need for monster lux sedans and coupes at home. Its a foreign idea to them, and I think thats basically why its taken them so long to be able to field legitimate competition in that area.
Japan's idea for performance is small, lightweight RWD or AWD cars with 2.0 or 2.5L 4-cyls and monster turbos. Germany cant really compete with Japan in that area. Sure there's the Golf GTI and Jetta GLI, but they will be massacred by even the EVO and WRX models we get in the states, not to mention the much hotter versions available only in Japan.
This is largely true, but I think its true as far as German luxury cars go. There is also Porsche which also believes in lightweight construction and rwd. They don't build "GT" cars like MB/BMW/Audi.
I think the biggest difference is what you state second, that Japan likes 4-cylinders and turbos while the Germans like V12, V10s and superchaged V8 and just bigger engines in general.
There is also a mesg in there somewhere about Germans not doing cheap too well either. If VW built a car to compete with EVOs and WRX STis it would be too expensive to make sense in the U.S. I think .
M
Certainly the A3 attempts to poke a hole in that. It is definitely well done, but difficult to keep cheap.
From memory (eight years old at least), I think the NSX is deficient as a truly enjoyable drive, only because it has not one annoying idiosyncrasy to endear itself to the driver. How's that for logic? It's a "supercar" with far too great a degree of civility. It's antiseptic. It's Japanese. }-]
Yes Merc, you pegged me easily on the A8. It's the definition of the upper end class IMO. OTOH, I have no idea which way she'll jump, and after the first minivan debate 10 years ago, I'm not even going to try to influence the decision (I was ultra-wagon-prone of course)!
On the S4 Avant: I have tried to put it out of my mind fom time to time to no avail. It's an amazing piece of work. If the 3.2 A3 is extremely high on the fun factor, though, I may just forego the seatback slamming capability for a smaller, and therefore somewhat more desirable (in my case), package.
Thats definitely true. Japan's most legendary sports car displaces just 2.8L, yet manages to deliver some 550hp in its final Nismo hurrah.
It sure is. And you can share it with 3 of your closest friends.
If that's the definition of german nirvana, i will claim, it's fairly recent. yeah the gremans have been creating this plethora of engines, but through the late 80s and early 90s, they were making 730 and S300's... weren't they?
ksso
That is just awesome. I guess I just any kind of engine that produces power like that.
M
Though I'm partial to Mercedes, I pretty much agree with that. The A8 is just design feast. I've always liked the V8 Audi even back when it was called just that "the V8".
Now repeat after me....S4 Avant....S4 Avant.....S4 Avant....you must not think about the A3 anymore!
M
Well the original statement about those big engines being the major difference between Japan and Germany is true. For their definitive cars they've always used big engines, but like you state you can also have one with very little in the way of "guts". That is still the case today with MB/BMW and Audi in Europe. Still though I don't know another country that would sell a car with 302hp for 90K and then another version of the same car with 604hp for 180K.
M
This is true about being able to tell an AMG apart from regular Mercedes for most people, but then again the Germans have never been about flash like the Italians or British. Ferrari and Aston wear their designs on their sleeves while German cars have always been more subtle you-won't-know-what-hit-you type cars. I guess I don't see a problem with that because they've always been this way. It only seems to matter in the most rarest of instances or comparos, otherwise AMG cars have never been more successful. German cars, as good as they look/feel aren't ever going to win the exclusivity battle with British and Italian cars.
I do hear what you're saying though. One way I think they could give the AMG cars a little more flair is to go back to the wider fenders that MB used back on the E500 of a decade ago. That car had a stance that was unmistakable. I suspect this would be shot down for cost reasons today. That E500 was a 80K car back in 1994!
Another way would be to offer a little more in the way of custom interiors. I think this would go a long way towards making them a little more special or different from regular Mercedes.
IMO the Aston-Martin DB9 is the best looking car in production today, easily better looking than any Mercedes, Bentley, and (gulp) or Ferrari.
Funny MT said that about the CL, but I clearly see VW parts in the Bentley, though it does have a gorgeously appointed interior.
M
They're a good crew, by and large. More level-headed and open-minded than most of the saffron-robed crowd who tend to gather around one brand or another!
Yes, the Auto Union retro look is one I wish they'd kept in the archives, frankly. Only mitigating factor here is that they are certainly not alone. "Heritage" my eye. The new Benz 3-point cake-pan in the middle, aero snout: same deal, IMO. And there are others.
My take: with 95% done so right (IMO, of course), I can overlook the last 5%. I'll just make sure to walk around the back of the car...
;-]
Then they gave the Bentley first place. Thats why I dont subscribe to MT anymore, they have the same problem that Edmunds does in comparison tests, the results seem to all point one way, but then they pick another car entirely.
Oh my, yes. Good call there.
Actually, both my wife and I entertain certain legitimate tax advantages to leasing, so I do it anyway, but, even on my little pocket Lexus, which last year enjoyed a tow and a two-week stay in Pleasanton due to a total electrical meltdown (wanna know my feelings on the RX330?), I'd prefer never to be out of warranty.
I read the Autoweek blurb on the new S (just as a recent example), and the thrust to make it the ultimate techno-geek's marvel. I'm not one to faun over gizmosis to begin with, but, oh, the thought of the needless cost to fix non-essentials out of warranty! Electronics and electricals have eclipsed mechanicals in diagnostic and repair costs, IIRC.
So yes, IMO, leasing can be doubly advantageous in this class of car.
Talk about gizmosis, though, my A6 with navigation and a built in telephone and frankly every option but the power rear shade has 82 buttons, switches, levers, dials and moveable switchgear to deal with -- NOT INCLUDING the steering wheel itself. If the S is to make it the ultimate tech weenie's marvel, I shudder at the number of buttons it has to push.
I say thank god for voice command capabilities.
D'oh!
Thanks, Mark. Just so's I don't end up pumping my breaks to avoid braking the legs of a dear to save my own deer life!
;-]