Luxury Performance Sedans

designman · October 2005

Hey, it's just my opinion Rich. I'm criticizing the cars, not the people who buy them. Furthermore, my cars have been criticized ad infinitum, doesn't bother me in the least. It's aesthetic philosophy, very hard to qualify and quantify. I enjoy discussing styling, it's what design men do. I wholeheartedly admit that there are people who like E60... just have to stir the pot a little... goad them into saying what they like about it beyond eye-of-the-beholder. Lastly, I'm a BMW fan. Have been for a lo-o-ong time. Maybe deep down inside I am looking for someone to come up with a reason that will help me conquer my disdain for the new styling. I encourage you and appreciate the fact that you keep trying, providing plenty of retort to my sometimes querulous posts. Indeed, I am convinced that you like the styling. Enjoy!

;-)

wale_bate1 · October 2005

It's an interesting theory, Rich, but conservative taste v. progressive doesn't really cover it. The E39 was almost universally accepted by critics (automotive consumer and industry press) as a benchmark of sedan styling. The same has not been expressed about the E60.

Doesn't mean any of us think less of it as a driving platform, and certainly the Bangle cues are endearing to some, and most certainly the car is successful, but a world standard of automotive styling I really don't think it can be called.

Frankly, I don't think we're currently in a great phase of automotive design. To me it feels like most manufacturers are casting about for a direction to pursue the future. Most, IMO, are not experiencing great success. I feel sometimes like it's a return to the 80's, with the same insecurities being expressed as styling strength cues. Witness the hard creases and expressive cut lines and general lack of cohesion and flow across almost all brands. This is an industry searching for the next big thing.

I have issues even with those I consider the best at styling. We've all mentioned the Auto Union retro schnozzola on Audi's otherwise clean and concise styling. That's a serious WTH in my book...

mariner7 · October 2005

M or 5, which is the ugliest of the litter? There's one thing they can agree on though. According to autospies, they're tops in their segment for resale values.

In the luxury coupe, Corvette and G35C are tied for tops.

dewey · October 2005

The world according to Kelly Blue Book for 2006:

Which luxury sport sedans have the best resale values?

BMW 5 series
Infiniti G35 and M45

Overall which brand has the best resale value? It is a tie between BMW and Mini!

http://www.kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/ke.kb.sp?kbb;;OH085;&44092&&BestResaleAwards;Autoshow/2006_CA- - - &

So it appear Bangle has no negative impact on resale values. Though I think the resale market will be more harsh on my choice of colors, black on black

hpowders · October 2005

Wow! The new LS is my 545i with an L on the front! Great compliment to Chris Bangle with his bold and sexy E60 design!

hpowders · October 2005

You have reached a new low in presumptuousness telling me and all the other thousands of E60 owners that there is no way we can love the new E60 design.
I not only love it but give kudos to BMW for having the courage for going with such an original, aggressive and bold design.
The fact that so many people are talking about it, to me shows that the design has really achieved something.

jjacura · October 2005

"Wow! The new LS is my 545i with an L on the front! Great compliment to Chris Bangle with his bold and sexy E60 design!"

Look directly at the front of that Lexus LS Isn't it closer to the RL than the e60?

Lexus LS--- http://forums.e60.net/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=14093

BMW e60-- http://www.fantasycars.com/cgi-bin/photos/index.cgi?action=view&link=Cars/BMW/2005%20E60%2- - 0M5&image=bmw_m5_e601.jpg&img=&tt=

Acura RL--- http://hondanews.com/CatID3010?mid=2005081755553&mime=JPG

also hpowders...Bangle is unique in the industry and He even comes from a Great Area of our country (Wi. Native) but there are some BMW owners that are working hard to get him out. What is with this petition? http://www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/petition.html :sick:

hpowders · October 2005

From what I have read, BMW seems to be 1000% behind Bangle, but who really knows what goes on behind closed doors?

Not to change the subject, but it will be interesting to see how close the 2007 LS actually resembles all those stimulating spy photos currently circulating. All in all, this could finally be an exciting design from Lexus. I hope they show some real courage for a change and see it through.

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Actually, while still supporting him, BMW reined in pretty hard on ol' Chris from everything I've read since the intro of the 7.

Speaking of new, Autoweek has a spot on Honda's latest concepts. There's one (briefly glimpsed) that appears to be a larger sedan that's almost "Ultra-Cab-Forward". That looked pretty good.

Short hoods, minimum overhangs, wide stances and deep greenhouses make me happy; IOW, the antithesis of current design thrust! Some of the future concepts just now emerging are much more to my tastes than what's new on the lots today.

rich545 · October 2005

Not true. Chris Bangle is in charge of the design team now which is certainly supporting him. I read an interesting article about him in the Harvard Business Journal. There isn't a design the designers create that he doesn't see and approve/shoot down. The article talked a lot about how he runs interference for the designers because the engineers are often hard on them which he feels stiffles their creativity. Think about it, if they were really unhappy with him after the 7 (which is now the best-selling 7 ever designed) why wouldn't they simply fire him? I mean, people freaked when the new 7 came out, but bought it in record numbers. I think the same goes for the 5. While the group of people that dislikes the E60 may be vocal, I doubt they represent a majority. If they did, BMW wouldn't sell so many E60's. From what I've seen, they people most offended by the new designs are people that own the E39 or really loved it.

rich545 · October 2005

I know, I just feel like you don't present it like it's your opinion. It's more like my way or the highway. Maybe that's not you intention, but that's how it "sounds" to me. I don't think anyone can come up with a good enough reason for you to like the new designs. You either do or you don't. I actually not trying to convince you of anything besides the fact that though you like they are hideous, they clearly aren't universally considered to be.

rich545 · October 2005

I would say that car reviewers tend to me a pretty conservative lot actually so the fact that they loved the E39 is hardly surprising. I agree that the E60 is more polarizing than the E39 was, but it hasn't affected sales. Hell, I didn't love it when I first saw it (especially in pictures). The more I saw it though, the more I liked it. I saw the E39 all the time. I thought it was a nice car, but was never inclined to buy one. I feel about it like I feel about most Audi's from a style standpoint, and that's boring. Nice and inoffensive, but boring. But hey, I think the E is starting to look dated and boring and most people think it's beautiful. I just like new and different things. My wife would tell you that it drives her crazy! I always seem to be looking for the next latest gadget or toy! I'm sure I'll be bored with the E60 in a few years. I know I'll only have mine until the warrantly is up (in about 3 years). Just in time for the facelifted E60!

carnaught · October 2005

Battling each other over the subjective opinions of the E60 styling are battles that just can't be won. Can't we just say "serenity now" or something similar and move on to other aspects of this generally awesome car?

hpowders · October 2005

Sounds like a phrase better articulated by LS 430 owners rather than E60'ers.

carnaught · October 2005

Sounds like a phrase better articulated by LS 430 owners rather than E60'ers.

Either "side" can use it.

lexusguy · October 2005

Wow, this has gone on way too long. Some people like the styling of the 5, some dont. Free country.

In an effort, (probably in vain) to change the subject, MT has an interesting four car comparo in the November issue of the 545i, M45, E500, and STS V8. They placed in that order. The 545i was the fastest car in a straight line, so the 550i should just extend their lead further there. However, the M45 was faster through the slalom, did better on the skidpad, and was faster through MT's figure-eight test. Not enough to earn it the number one spot though.

hpowders · October 2005

Both the 545i and the M45 are a lot of fun to drive. I own one and drove the other respectively(but definitely not respectfully). The M had the best brakes I had ever experienced.
You expect driving fun from BMW. Heck of a very pleasant surprise from Infiniti.
Love to see what Infiniti does for an encore. Just may get me to switch in 2.75 years.

jjacura · October 2005

Speaking of Infinity...What ever happened to DocNukem...his input is usually quite refreshing.

jrock65 · October 2005

KBB gave the best projected resale award in the "luxury" category to the M45. It's on their website.

(Hope that wasn't a repost)

lexusguy · October 2005

I forgot to mention that, the M45 stopped shortest, something like 114 or 115 feet vs. BMW's 123. I think the M is just a taste of things to come. We'll see with the GTR and whatever happens with the Q.

nvbanker · October 2005

I think you're dead right on the hybrids, wale - as usual, very wise.

dewey · October 2005

Kevin Tynan, a senior auto analyst at Argus Research Co., said there is room for Audi to gain ground on its competitors given the features and technology in the company's vehicles. But Audi's biggest challenge will be to create more brand recognition to put it on equal footing with BMW and Mercedes.

OK I dont mean to give Audi the shoddy "60 Minutes Treatment", especially since I do have an interest in the new Audi A3( although that interest is mainly due to the lack of competition from a non-existing product-lines in N. America--BMW 1 series and a Lexus IS sport wagon)!

But in all honesty what features and technology does Audi offer that other car companies do not offer??

DSG? Buy a VW and save a lot of money!
AWD cars? Which luxury car compnay does not have AWD cars!
Aluminum body frames? Yes, if you want to spend big bucks you can also buy an expensive Jag!

In fact I can give you a long list of features/technology offered by Lexus, MB, BMW and Infiniti that Audi does not offer!

Does Audi honestly think that it can create brand recognition of MB/BMW or Lexus/Inifiinti without advantageous features/technology? I dont think so!! In fact most the features/technologies of an Audi are VW features/technologies ! And VW as we all know does not have a luxury brand image(Proof:Phaeton)

liferules · October 2005

I'm not sure what Kevin Tynan was talking about, and I agree with you that Audi doesn't have any "special" features not found in other quality LPS's. OTOH, this isn't what is required to walk shoulder to shoulder with MB/BMW. Neither of those 2 brands have anything fantastic or innovative that is rocking the auto industry on its ends. It is the style and drive that make a car reputable (and perhaps good reliability, though one can argue that MB/BMW don't have that these days...).

As to Lexus/Infiniti. I think Audi has equal brand recognition to Lexus (definitely much more in Europe and perhaps equal in the US), and is much more recognized as a quality car manufacturer than Infiniti. I wouldn't mention Infiniti in the same sentences as the other 3 manufacturers you mentioned as it has only been with the last 2 car models that it has excelled, not exactly a long road of tradition for quality/fun cars IMO...

If Audi could come out with a little more HP/speed and continue the same excellent interiors, it would easily match or surpass its competitors.

bdr127 · October 2005

KBB gave the best projected resale award in the "luxury" category to the M45. It's on their website.

Not knocking the Infiniti (more like knocking KBB)... but how does KBB know what the resale will be like for a brand new model?

On another note, BMW and Mini tied for the best resale value over a whole brand.

dewey · October 2005

I agree.

Audi as far as I know does not have a benchmark performance car among its product-line unless you want to compare similar cars in different price ranges. Although one can argue that the Audi RS4 is a superior performer than the BMW M3, the two are not comparable based on price--you have to invest alot more $$ for that extra RS4 performance.

Also one can argue that the A3 is the benchmark performance small luxury performance wagon . But that is easy to accomplish when Audi A3 is the sole car in such a segment.

But I do disagree with your Infiniti views. The new M is very impressive! And the new generation G35 may jolt the competition. Yes there are just two Infiniti cars worth mentioning here, but these two cars are worthy of attention for many LPS buyers.

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Now c'mon Dewey.

I think Audi has benchmarks, they just aren't real mainstream (like me!).

I think they absolutely have the benchmark AWD compact sport/lux (sport first) wagon in the S4 Avant. I don't think anyone else gets close with any product available here in the States.

You mention the A3, and put it in exactly the right context I think. It isn't that they offer individual aspects that aren't available elsewhere, it's how they blend and present those as total concepts, IMO. They've replaced BMW as my favorite Euro at least temporarily, even though RWD bias is a missing component for true love.

As far as superlatives go, though, I don't think anyone else has the styling and execution piece so universally down as Audi, that's even with the silly nose (why, oh why?).

Audi's heel is it's pricing, I think, which in an effort to find US profitability is climbing slowly out of reason.

I too find Nissan impressive, but it's more along the lines of bang for the buck, IMO. They're kind of like the next Lexus in that way. When the LS400 was introduced, you couldn't not buy one without feeling like you'd really missed out on the deal of the decade. That's very similar to the Infiniti G and M now.

Rich: The toning down of Chris's designs is documented. Management believed in him and still does, but clearly felt he needed to keep a little past in the future. I'll let it go, but I think you really need to examine decaf much more closely; your defense-o-meter is plumb off the scale. :P :P

Maybe we can all agree that the 6 is a bit of a disappointment? First time I saw one (from behind) I thought it was a nicely modified black 3gen Eclipse until I got fairly close. I've heard others compare it to a Solara, which is a low, low blow, but maybe they're on to something, even if badly communicated. I certainly can't seem to manifest any great lust for it myself. I was hoping for a real icon, like the inspirational 635, but it just ain't there. Anybody in love with it?

rich545 · October 2005

Wale-Let's leave comments about being defensive out of the discussion. You don't know me, and I'm not being defensive. I honestly don't care one smidgen what anyone on an internet message board thinks of my taste in cars. All I'm asking for is that people back up at least some of their opinions with facts and figures. The fact is, the 7 you alluded to is the best selling 7 in the history of the model, and that's mostly before the facelift. Hardly a failure by Bangle. Yes, the 7 was facelifted. So was the vaulted E39 during it's lifecycle.The Z4 has sold very well, and so has the E60. The X5 is about to be redesigned on the E60 platform. The 3 has already been redesigned in Bangle fashion. Yes, it's somewhat less Bangled, but generally it looks a lot like a smaller E60. I'd be willing the bet that the E60 facelift will include the headlights that are now on the 7 and 3. In fact, it's a pretty standard pattern by BMW. They launch a new design and facelift it 4-5 years later. Nothing to do with Bangle. I actually don't agree that the 6 is a disappointment. I think it's the best Bangle design actually. To close, simply because Bangle's designs get changed over time doesn't mean the original design is a failure. All car designs evolve over the life of the car. I understand that you don't like the designs. Great. So don't buy them. Simply because you don't though does not mean they are a failure. The numbers suggest otherwise, and so does the fact that Bangle still works for BMW and in fact runs their design team.

markcincinnati · October 2005

The monthly sales figures posted here have often found Audi's A6 fighting for last place with Acura's RL.

Yet, Audi of America has [again] been able to take their stats and create blurbs such as:

"AUBURN HILLS, Mich.  Audi of America, Inc. reported its best September sales month in history. With sales of 7,854 units, the German luxury brands numbers are up 34.6 % over September of 2004. Key drivers of this success are the A6 model range with 1,640 sales reported  up 211.2 % - and the A4 model line with 4,169 units, representing an increase of 19.7 %."

And:

" Audi worldwide sales to Sept. up by around 11.2 percent on last year
 Sales in Germany up to September up by 13.0 percent on last year
 USA in September 34.6 percent up on last year"

Regarding, total sales:

We are certain to significantly exceed the sales target of 800,000 vehicles which we set ourselves for this year, stated Ralph Weyler, Member of the Board for Marketing and Sales at AUDI AG."

Bla bla bla. . .etc etc etc.

Interestingly -- if you can believe what you can find here on the Internet, Audi and BMW for years and years have run neck and neck in terms of their "homeland" sales. Germans (and other Europeans) seem to, for example, buy more A6's than 5 series -- then the tables will turn and they will buy more 5's. But they run neck and neck there -- whereas here BMW sells what? Three times or more than three times as many 5's as Audi sells A6's?

Is this the case that we know something the Germans don't know or maybe they know something we don't? I've been to Germany about two dozen times since 1993 (and I just returned last week from Munich -- the home of BMW). Based on Taxis, Mercedes C and E (mostly E) seems to rule. But the number of A4's and especially A4 Avants would lead you to believe that Audi dominates (I don't know this to be a fact, it is just a "sense" based on the number of A4's and A3's that seem to be "everytwhere.")

Are our (US) dealers just crap?

I cannot explain this discrepancy.

Ideas from the erudite?

:confuse:

scottjohnson · October 2005

"Look directly at the front of that Lexus LS Isn't it closer to the RL than the e60? "

That was my thought. There are some really strong resemblances among these three. There is a dark gray BMW 5-series here at work that I've parked my gray RL next to and it is surprising how similar the styling is. Both have that Bangle rear end that is so infamous.

docnukem · October 2005

Okay, I know you asked for the erudite, but I'll respond anway.

I would guess that the (total baloney) reported sudden acceleration problems of (when, the early 80's?) damaged Audi's reputation at an economic point in time which magnified the effects. Remember the (total baloney and totally ridiculous) desire of up-and-comers to meet the Yuppie image? BMW and MB capitalized on that when Audi was still hurting. An analogy might be like spotting U of M 14 points and then trying to play catch up (hey, any time I can bring up Wolverine football, I will). BMW and MB then became the brand to own. Image may not be everything, but at that time, it certainly helped BMW and MB.

Even if Audi had gone into (early) Lexus mode for several years and wooed customers back with good price points on their good vehicles, they would have been seen as second tier during the boom-times.

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Ask for erudite, and even the ignorant (me) shall reply!

Docnukem's response seems rather informed and insightful to me. I really think the acceleration urban legend here put a cloud over Audi from which they only comparatively recently emerged. I know it sounds silly, but it makes sense.

Part deux here is that by and large the offerings (and the marketing) weren't all that performance-oriented over the years. The image was more SAABish and kind of techno-geek safety. That was then of course.

There is the VW image to carry as well. Silly link, it's true, but whereas Lexus is oft derided as a gussied Toyota, at least the Toyota is of sterling reputation (well deserved or not), the VW not so (1.8T possibly being a thorn?). I think many prospective Audi buyers are afraid they'll be recipients of VW's famed customer service as well. Again, perception is mostly the culprit I think. OTOH, I don't know that if queried about a long-term ownership prospect Audi would be the first recommendation off my tongue, even though the two front runners for my check come June are Audis.

I do think their pricing strategy now is holding them back. There is some wonderful product here and in the pipe, but none of it stacks up as being a particualarly great value. I understand the exchange rate sucks mightily, but gaining substantial market share usually requires some loss-leading I think.

freddybb · October 2005

Hey docnukem,

You made me laugh out loud with that post -- thanks! I really meant narrow AND plump, as in narrow from the rear view, and plump (egg-like) from the side. But then again, you probably think that the 5 that I like so much looks weird, and that's perfectly fine. As far as the comment about the side seen most often -- that black streak flashing past you was me! Heh, heh, I amaze myself with my "virtual aggressive driving" in this forum -- I am a wimp on the road.

wale_bate1 · October 2005

"Simply because you don't though does not mean they are a failure..."

I never said that nor even implied it. Not once.

Check your meter again, Rich. It's pretty obvious you do care. A whole lot.

aas5 · October 2005

I think you are forgetting that all of the luxury car sales have increased dramatically over the last 10 years as people have and are willing to spend more money on LSs. Also, someone long time ago posted that most of the increase in the 7 sales came from Europe whereas in the States the demand has been flat to declining. I don't know if the second statement is true but the first sure is.
So, to really compare how well BMW has done compared to others, you need to compare the increase in sales of each comparable brand over the last 5 years.

I agree that all of us are entitled to our opinions about designs and driving and other characteristics of cars we chose to drive. Most of us will always come up with a bunch of good arguments to defend our choice. But I think you are kidding yourself and many others when you say that the 5 series is great and better looking than its previous generation. I grew up admiring German designs and always wanted to get a Bimmer or a MB, but the new 5 and 7 series designs are just a joke and look more like Japanese sedans than German. There is nothing bad about Japanese sedans, I own and love my new M45, but German cars should look like German cars. I am very confident that there were a lot more people who admired the classic old generation 5 design and hate the new look. Sure the sales are growing, but to me that's just due to the fact that people are willing to pay $10K more for the brand recognition and slightly better driving dynamics (compared to my M45 at least, to most other cars BMW is in fact superior) and nevermind the ugly minimalist interior design. I honestly can't see how anyone can reasonably defend the interiors of new BMWs. Let's just stick to superior driving dynamics.

dewey · October 2005

Walebate1,

Oops! I forgot to mention the impressive S4 Avant. A vehicle I would love to own if I lived in the USA but not in Canada. Why?

The pricing in Canada is outrageous for the S4 compared to US pricing. 48K US$ vs. 71K CDN$.

Audi pricing in the US is reasonable when you compare it to Canadian pricing!

Which brings me to the Infiniti! Value for the $$(even in Canadian $).

If the new generation G35(there are rumors of a wagon) maintains its MSRP below the BMW325i, I will be a future G35 owner!

freddybb · October 2005

Ok, since "erudite" means "everybody with a marginal brain" I will pitch in my opinion on the Audis based on recent shopping experience (I ended up with a 530xi). I was NOT even aware of the old, probably false, spontaneous acceleration problem, and I would NOT have cared about a 20 year problem even if I was aware of it.

There is an Audi dealership right around the corner from where I work, and I spent a few hours there looking at a brand new A6. Here's why I was turned off:

- Insipid, bland, exterior styling.
- The new corporate gaping-mouth grille to add to the bland styling.
- Inferior handling and feel compared to the 5 and M.
- No manual transmission offered.

I guess the biggest issue with me is that I just think that the A6 is a "no-op" from an exterior looks standpoint -- does nothing for me, don't like it or hate it. Just a big clean slab of a car. I like the new A4s more. Walking up to it I did not feel any of the thrill I get walking up to my 530xi. So that was it -- nothing to do with eons old acceleration problems.

rich545 · October 2005

Sorry, you said "a disappointment". Again, they may be to you, but to others they are not. You're right, having never met me you have a better idea of what "my meter" is doing than I do. I just care when people assume things without looking into them, and when they think that their opinions should be shared by everyone. Whether or not you like the E60 is irrelevant to me. What is relevent is that you're saying that BMW has reigned Bangle in which it clearly hasn't.

dewey · October 2005

No manual tranny would be the deal killer for me!

BMW5 series would be my choice compared to a non-MT Audi6 or non-MT Infiniti M!

Regarding the new oversized Audi Grills--I think they look good( And I am not kidding!)

rich545 · October 2005

See, this is just the type of message I take issue with. "But I think you are kidding yourself and many others when you say that the 5 series is great and better looking than its previous generation." Hmm, sounds like an opinion to me. "I am very confident that there were a lot more people who admired the classic old generation 5 design and hate the new look." Hmmm, sounds like an opinion based on nothing to me. "Sure the sales are growing, but to me that's just due to the fact that people are willing to pay $10K more for the brand recognition and slightly better driving dynamics (compared to my M45 at least, to most other cars BMW is in fact superior) and nevermind the ugly minimalist interior design." Right, people are willing to spend 10K more of their hard earned money for a car they can't stand to look at. "I honestly can't see how anyone can reasonably defend the interiors of new BMWs." Nice, but again just an opinion. Who knows, maybe if someone walked into your house they'd say, "Man, I can't imagine anyone would by that ugly sofa" or something along those lines. Hell, where I live in the 'burbs of Chicago everyone seems to love putting marble on every horizontal surface in their houses (as well as some vertical ones). I think it's hideous, but who am I to tell them they have bad taste?

pat · October 2005

Let's be careful not to turn differences of opinions into personal issues. We're all entitled to our opinions, of course, and that means those who disagree with us aren't "wrong" anymore than we are for our individual perspectives. None of us are "right" either, we just feel what we feel and it's all good ...

:shades:

wale_bate1 · October 2005

You got one of those marginals too, eh?

Interesting input. We agree on the grille. I think it was a bad call to try so hard evoke an image of a racing history that few know or really care about, especially here in the States. Plus, I don't think it fits the rest of their design idiom. It's a sore thumb, IMO.

I have to say, I've never really looked closely at the current A6, mostly because I'm actively shopping the S4 Avant and A3, and probably the A8 for the Mrs. (among other), so I've kind of disregarded it The previous gen was a work of art to me, even if it was too big to be on my list of wannahaves. I praise the last wave of Audis for the near complete lack of surface ornamentation. They never needed it; the shapes were that seductive. Those have in fact been diluted by ornamentation somewhat I think.

I think any mfr presenting itself as a vendor of worthwhile sporting sedans should be offering a mid-size without a manual. I didn't realize you can't get an A6 with one. Bad on them. I take Lexus to task as well for failing to do so on the IS350.

So you're really looking at it from the A6 vantage point only, though. I do believe, regardless of an A6's possible perceived shortcomings against an E60, Audi's deployment deficit debacle doesn't dwell there, but rather with a broader image issue they should have been able to overcome.

markcincinnati · October 2005

. . .with respect to the style of the various LPS cars herein debated.

But, with much bias and affection for the German people (especially the Bavarians), they seem to be very much like us 'mericans (in terms of taste and acceptance of style.)

There appears to be little preference (based on sales numbers) between the A6 and 5 -- indeed, I believe the A6 is currently in a slight leadership position sales-wise.

So, while we may endlessly debate if the 5 is good looking or the A6 has a big mouf, or whatever -- there does seem to be a much closer sales rivalry between these brands in Germany where, one could imagine, performance differences ought to be a bigger deal, what with the autobahn (in their case) and grid lock (in our case.)

While I do not intend to ignite a fire about handling and performance, it would seem that the A6 and the 530xi (when equipped with an automatic) are very similar driving cars considering our lack of autobahns and our often bumper to bumper traffic that virtually assures few opportunities to "exercise" the performance capabilities of either of these cars.

I test drove the new 530xi -- and other than the comfort seats and the fact that it could ONLY be tested with an automatic -- I liked it. It did not seem in any meaningful way crisper than my A6 (although I told myself the A6 has more understeer -- but the truth is, both cars took the same corners at the same speeds with aplomb.) In fact the A6 seemed peppier in gears 1 - 3.

So, these cars US sales would (if I did not have first hand driving experience) make me think the BMW "blows the Audi away." Yet the differences, while real, are very subtle and probably most meaningful closer to the limit than we are able to get even in a medium sized city like Cincinnati.

In Germany the two sell about the same, as noted. One would think that if one were vastly superior to the other there would be a big sales performance difference (e.g., here where BMW regularly outsells Audi by at least 3 to 1.)

Something doesn't add up.

If we "all" could concede the BMW is the "pick of the LPS cars" in every aspect imaginable -- clearly superior, well that should translate into 3.5 BMW's being sold for every Audi (which IS, apparently, the case here in NA). But, one would also have to extrapolate that similar sales figures would be the case in Germany (and other parts of Western Europe.) But at present, Audi slightly outsells BMW there.

I have long thought that Audi's (US) marketing (which includes pricing) has to be the culprit for such a large discrepancy. I also have thought that Audis dealership network must be "way down the totem pole" from BMW (and I presume this is the case.)

But, unless you irrationally reject the notion that these cars are very similar in feature, function, performance and price, what in the wide wide world of sports could account for BMW's 350% sales superiority over Audi when the differences back at home rarely, if ever, exceed a single digit, [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat that is, even when one of these Bavarian makers is having a particularly up or down year (comparatively speaking)?

I say "irrationally" only because it seems to have come to pass that all these LPS cars have gotten closer and closer to each other in terms of performance, content and price over the years. Our personal loyalties and opinions (i.e, the subjective) pertaining to style, etc, seem to be much more disparate than the actual objective characteristics of these vehicles.

That is to say, I am not so sure I would be sitting here crying in my beer had it worked out that I ended up with the Infiniti M35X I had originally thought I would end up with; and, likewise, having driven the new 530xi, I cannot imagine being displeased with that vehicle either. When it came down to it, I was loyal to Audi and when the price parity was re-established between the Audi, Infiniti and the BMW, the Audi got my vote -- it didn't hurt any that I wanted the Audi all along, but just not quite enough to pay nearly $200 per month more for the lease payment.

I still don't see why the distance between these (2 brand in particular) are so great -- and apparently only here in the good ol USA.

:confuse:

rich545 · October 2005

I agree that for the most part we don't even come close to pushing our cars to the limits where it would be obvious that one car in this class really outperforms another. For everyday driving, and even when we push it somewhat there is probably a lot more similar about these cars than different. A lot has to do with how they're perceived which creates almost placebo feelings for us. We've always been told that BMW's handle better than Audi's so we probably are pretty likely to feel like they do though their performance numbers are so close I doubt we really "feel" any differences. So from that standpoint I agree that marketing comes into play. However, maybe BMW and Mercedes outsell Audi by such a large margin here simply because Americans prefer them. I know you said that you go to Germany a lot, and I don't know many Germans, but we may be more different than you think when it comes to choosing cars. There is so much that goes into the car buying decision though so it's hard to really say for sure.

aas5 · October 2005

Of course it is my opinion. Not sure why you would say it is based on nothing.
I was in the market for a new car this year, and I definitely passed by the BMW dealership without stopping. All of my friends dislike the new Bimmer designs and used to love the old ones and even though statistically it's a small population, I tend to think it's representative of a general view.

You seem to think that if sales are growing that is the recognition of the successful design. I think it's either a recognition of driving characteristics that BMW is known for or a brand name recognition. And again, I think you are kidding yourself if you really don't believe that people are willing to sacrifice design for the brand name. There are many people who are willing to pay $10K of their "hard earned money" to buy cars not based on their subjective liking of designs but purely to be seen driving a BMW or a MB. It is a fact.

rich545 · October 2005

Let's try to keep straight exactly what you said, and I said.

1) "But I think you are kidding yourself and many others when you say that the 5 series is great and better looking than its previous generation."

What you originally said was that I was kidding myself for the above reasons, not for the brand recognition. That was mentioned in the following:

2) "Sure the sales are growing, but to me that's just due to the fact that people are willing to pay $10K more for the brand recognition and slightly better driving dynamics (compared to my M45 at least, to most other cars BMW is in fact superior) and nevermind the ugly minimalist interior design."

That's when I said, "Right, people are willing to spend 10K more of their hard earned money for a car they can't stand to look at." I never said they wouldn't spend $10K to be "seen" in a BMW. I said they wouldn't spend the extra $10K if they really hated how the car looked. It's one thing to be seen. It's other to drive a car you dislike just to be seen. I'd say that would be a small number of people that would send $65K just to be seen in a car they found ugly. Again, just my opinion.

3) "I am very confident that there were a lot more people who admired the classic old generation 5 design and hate the new look."

I said, "Hmmm, sounds like an opinion based on nothing to me." Okay, so it's based on, as you said, a statiscally small population. Just the fact that my friends don't share your friends' opinion on the new designs proves right there that it's not a universal opinion, and is not, in fact, representative of the general view. People tend to choose friends that are more like them than not so their group of friends are LESS likely to be representative of the whole. The only way to judge the general feeling towards a car fairly is to see how many people buy it.

Which brings my to my final point. You said, "I think you are forgetting that all of the luxury car sales have increased dramatically over the last 10 years as people have and are willing to spend more money on LSs" in response to me pointing out that the current 7 has sold more than any before. So did the new 7 come out 10 years ago? No, it came out in 2002 (or late in 2001). That's only a little over 3 years ago. So the 10 period of increased luxury sedan sales really applies more to the 740 than the 745 (now 750). The last generation 7 was around for 7 years; the new one has eclipsed its sales in a little over 3 years. What does that tell you?

anthonyp · October 2005

I believe that there are many more bmw dealerships than audi....I know I would not buy an audi if there wasn`t a conveniently located dealer....tony

mg808 · October 2005

Both the 5 and 7 have been panned by the critics but yet sales are up? Why?

The BMW factor is very strong and still exists. Owning a BMW is what people want. Being able to say, Hey lets cruise to the mall in my BMW just sounds good, I guess.

The redesigned 7 has had great sales due to excellent leasing options and the fact its cheaper than the redesigned A8 and the upcoming new S500. People who can afford a $699/month lease can get the 7.

The 5, well this car is the benchmark in this forum. Nuff said. People buy it for various reasons and for the last year, BMW has become a luxury rental company. You can lease it for $599 and for that, its become more popular. I think the new exterior design isn't that bad, but the interior isn't worth the $60K pricetag for a 530i.

I personally have owned BMW's and Mercedes. I just purchased an 05 Acura RL. For me, the car has everything I want and I also didn't prefer buying another car that would cost me $10K more. Personal preference, which makes the mid-size luxury market awesome. 6 great cars to choose from. Now that's a good thing. :shades:

lexusguy · October 2005

Just based on people I've known recently with Audi's, and what I've seen in CR and on the PA\NJ lemon law website, I think a large part of Audi's problem is bad reliability combined with bad dealer service, not some acceleration problem from 20 years ago that no one remembers, along with a general resistance to making cars designed for Americans. Can anyone tell me what Audi's current return customer rate is? I'm pretty sure Lexus is over 90%. People that I've known with Audi's, particularly with last gen A6s, have told me the would not buy another. They didnt make the kinds of headlines that M-B is currently making, but I think '98-'00 A6s were just as bad as anything M-B has done in the last few years. A4s and A8s werent much better. A6s were recalled 3 times to fix the same ignition coil problem.

The ML320 was actually around before the RX300, and when BMW saw what was happening, the jumped on the bandwagon in '00 with the X5, followed by Acura and Volvo. What was Audi's response? An A6 Avant with some body cladding and an adjustable suspension. If you walked in to a showroom today, pretty much the only luxury brands you cannot buy an SUV from are Audi and Jaguar. They are responding to a 1998 phenominon in 2006. American's wanted more, larger cupholders (and NOT in the dashboard) for years, and Audi always stonewalled, saying "its not a German thing". Well, this isnt Germany. I think its taken Audi way too long to figure that out.

jjacura · October 2005

Nice decision to purchase the RL...I know you must have agonized over that decision...in the end what was the bottom line that closed the deal for you? Was it really only the price tag?

jjacura · October 2005

after reading all about the differences of opinion on this forum you get my vote for cutting through all the BS. AS USUAL.

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