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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    Absolutely! My neigbor in his 996 Turbo sure is NOT going to get to work faster in Atlanta AM traffic than I can in my e39! Rarely are these cars pushed to the limit in 99% of the real world conditions we live in.

    That said, on the race track, mere seconds can separate who stands on the podium and who goes home. Sometimes, performance can be measured in minute increments of total balance, not just hard 0-60 times. All of these cars have a variety of strengths that appeal to their buyers... personally, I can justify why I bought a 2003 530SP and continue to enjoy it more today than on day 1.

    Sometimes, these discussions sound like art critics sitting around extolling the virtues of their favorite artists and respective styles. Is Picasso really "better" than Gauguin? Monet better than Rembrandt?...

    All I can say is this... I'll take my little BMW and go up against any other LPS in its class on Road Atlanta for a 100 mile race and like my chances! The fact that I have a terrific driving experience (for me, anyway) around town is just icing on the cake. BTW, I have spent a fair amount of time in Germany - drove the e60 in the Black Forest region out of Karlsruhe prior to the US introduction. Left me kinda cool at 1st, but as I've driven them here, have warmed up to them, especially the new 530 and 545/550.

    My German friends have told me I have the very car they would want to own if given an option, but that is a small sampling. Still not ready to part with my immaculate '03 530SP, but when the time comes, not sure that my personal tastes will lead me into an Audi showroom for anything but the A8! Agree that it is a shame that more luxury buyers have not found themselves in A8's. BMW, to their credit, builds the best-balanced performing line of cars top to bottom - IMHO.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The A8 just has no street credibility. Perhaps it should, but it doesnt. In the full size lux class, thats a serious problem. I think it may have a lot to do with the last A8, which was basically a super-size A4 that couldnt play in the big leagues. When I was in San Remo and Monaco, there were A4s all over the place (I was in one) but A6s were fewer than Es and 5s, and A8s were non existant.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    IMHO2, FWIW!
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I hate it when you do that.

    The SUV thing is dead on of course, no matter how much it galls me to admit it. I personally hate the damn things, even the car-based ones. I spent some forced time in an RX330, and I will never, ever understand why someone would want to drive that or an X5 or an XC-90 or any of 'em daily. You can't get much more detached from the driving experience than that.

    But of course your point is correct.

    Also on the A8. As much as I may think of it as the cream of the current crop in that class, it remains kind of an unknown, and past history is very likely why.

    You good fer nuthin' so and so...
    ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If you walked in to a showroom today, pretty much the only luxury brands you cannot buy an SUV from are Audi and Jaguar.

    Audi's lack of a SUV during the 90s and early 00s was not the best in terms of timing!

    Even worse is Audi's timing of introducing a soon-to-be Q7 SUV!. Latest stats show that every manufacturer suffered a decline in SUV sales except Land Rover(compliments to the LR3).

    The Q7 will share its platform with the VW Touareg and Porsche Cayenne, two models which faced 50% and 26% Sept declines, respectfully, from last year!

    So what is the US sales that Audi is predicting for the new Q7 SUV. Accoring to Wall Street Journal dated October 7th:

    Audi is hoping that the Q7 will eventually be Audi's biggest-selling vehicle, surpassing its current best seller, the A4 sedan, which had more than 38,000 in sales in 2004.

    All I can say is Viele Glueck (Good Luck) for Audi!

    I think a large part of Audi's problem is bad reliability combined with bad dealer service

    Audi seems quite aware about N. American quality/service perceptions. Audi's VP of Operations made the following comment recently:

    Mr. de Nysschen says the push is to continue to focus on product quality, customer service and educating consumers about the Audi brand

    Deeds speak louder than words. Only time will tell if Audi succeeds.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I personally hate the damn things, even the car-based ones.

    I share your view.

    In fact our views on SUVs may become mainstream if gas prices continue going up like a one-way elevator.

    If gas prices get too high my priorities may change from a performance luxury sport wagon to a Toyota Echo :cry: .
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "If gas prices get too high my priorities may change from a performance luxury sport wagon to a Toyota Echo"

    "That reminds me of my friend. He went to a dealer the other day and said, "I'd like a gas cap for my ECHO." The dealer replied, "Okay. Sounds like a fair trade." :P
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    lol!
  • mg808mg808 Member Posts: 22
    jjacura, I was looking for a AWD sedan. I was going to get the A6 3.2. It looks very elegant and the interior is excellent. The issues for me were the motor (new engine = ? reliability), 6 CD Changer in the glove box? is this 2005... and optioning it out was over $50K with some discounts. I drove it a few times and wasn't impressed with the pickup either.

    Lexus GS300AWD was non-sporty, overpriced and small (similar to my wife's TL).

    The Infiniti M35x was very nice, but, to me it was more gimicky than elegant. The stitching on the seats, the wood, the dash buttons and the rear-tail lights didn't impress me. Obviously I'm in the minority because the M is selling great.

    The 5 and E were too expensive. I went to my BMW dealer where I purchased two cars. They were more interested in leasing a 525xi or 530xi than giving me a good discount on a purchase. I only own cars, because I usually keep them between 4-7 years.

    Then the RL. My wife thought the car is similar in size as the TL. This is true but in the end, the SH-AWD, NAV, gadgets and the comfortable seats sold me and her. In addition, they provided an incredible price. Price plays a part, but regardless of the price, you have to like what you buy and drive. I enjoy the RL everyday. :shades:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm sure BMW would've been quite happy to never do the X5 and focus on selling the 540iT. After all, it does handle better, and is way more efficient in terms of usable interior space than the X5. The only trouble is nobody in America bought one, where as the X5 was of course a smash hit. In Monaco, it was pretty much impossible to throw a stone without hitting a Cayenne or three. A lot of those probably could've been Audi sales if they didnt wait so long.

    Unfortunately the all new S class is probably not going to help the A8's problems.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Yeah, I think the big party for SUVs may be winding down. They wont go completely away, because as with full size pickups, there are people that really do use them to their full potential. The days of the Expedition and Suburban soccer moms are probably over though.
  • urwinurwin Member Posts: 2
    There are now many of us who have invested in this great addition to our new vehicles. I am looking for a good source to buy these DVD's. Best Buy had a few but very limited. Any good websites where these may be available? I almost feel guilty listening to my regular CD's when I have invested in the "Rolls Royce" sitting next to me! Certainly the sound is incredible.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    I'm not sure I completely agree. The SUV crowd (and I am part of that, owning one) know that we will pay more in gas, but the vehicles are so darn convenient without being a minivan. Yes, I admit it is shallow to be so opposed to the minivan, but the things are so darn ugly. Other than an SUV or minivan, there is nothing that a family of more than four can use for travel. If you check airline rates, that is even less economical than paying for gas the rest of the year (when not traveling).

    Check out Karl's Carmudgeon:
    http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/107448/article.html

    Have rising gas prices really changed the way people drive in a significant way (probably not fair asking that on the LPS forum, but I never said I was fair)?

    Rising prices may have made people pause in new purchases of SUVs, and I am sure they will not sell at the same rate that they have been, but I doubt that they can be declared dead and buried (I know, you said, "the big party may be winding down"). Personally, I know that when it comes time to replace the Sequoia, it will be with another SUV (how could I, in good conscience, ask my wife to drive a minivan while I drive the M35x--when she dislikes minivans more that I do?)

    The people who do not actually need the size of SUV's will be much less likely to return to them, but there really is no attractive alternative to families who need the size.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, my wife drives an RX300, so technically we're part of the "problem" as well. I just dont see much of a future for monster, V8 powered full size SUVs that get mileage in the low teens like the Sequoia, Tahoe, etc, especially when their third rows usually arent much bigger than the ones in the MDX, Highlander, or XC90.

    If I had to choose, I'd much rather drive a Honda Odyssey than a Sequoia. Sure it may not look as "butch", but (IMO) thats a poor excuse to choose a whale with horrible space utilization instead. I've driven both, and the Odyssey doesnt roll like a canoe in a sharp turn.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Yeah, I don't equate the RX and it's ilk with the full-size body on frame monsters like Extrusions and Subhumans. Sequoia's a fair hefty pup though. I may not like the car-based ones either, but they are more reasonable transport for the average family. They're (to me) just tall station wagons anyway; the almost logical replacement for the Grand Safari or Vista Cruiser of old.

    I really think the consumption question has more to do with how much you drive than what you drive. I put about 170 miles a week on the SportCross commuting. add in the occasional pleasure trip, occasional business trip (I do enjoy those), and various around-town jaunts and I'm averaging about 1100 miles a month. I can absorb the recent surges, and seriously entertain moving to a 4.2L V8, without feeling much at all. If my commute was a 90-minute back-baker like an associate from Modesto, I'd be entertaining notions of something less thirsty I think.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    No question--the Odyssey and Sienna are very nice vehicles, and if my wife was willing to test drive one, I'd be happy. She's petite, however, and loves being up high. The space issue really isn't one, though. I can sit in the third seat of the Sequioa and feel okay--not great, but okay (unlike my previous Durango).

    Sorry, Pat, getting a little off topic. To redirect: Again, she let me have my M35x, so I can't very well ask her to not look at the car she wants (although she would probably take a 750 Li or XJ8 extended if I asked her too).
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Yep...here you go... a pretty good selection of 5.1 Surround Stereo DVD's:

    http://www.fortune3.com/~comp72048/index2.html

    ******* :shades: ******** :shades: ******* :shades: ********
  • sirdarby1sirdarby1 Member Posts: 36
    I think Audi needs to reevaluate their salesforce training. They obviously love their cars so much they'd rather keep them on the lot. They are reluctant to come out oftheir offices, and when they do they are arrogant and out of touch with the consumers in my opinion.

    They never call you back and seem as if they are doing me a favor. Lexus and Infiniti sales and service are the best.
  • ckelly14ckelly14 Member Posts: 105
    This is the best site I've seen for SACD and DVD-A titles:
    Acoustic Sounds

    On a related note: Does anyone know of a aftermarket DVD-A surround system? I may go the aftermarket route on my next purchase.
  • ssamahassamaha Member Posts: 17
    I recently did a lot of homework, test drives, and shopping for a new Lux sedan.. Drove every thing from $35K-$65K and came this conclusion:

    based on all of my Objective and Subjective research...

    Benz E-Class > Audi A6 > BMW 5 Series > Acura RL > Infiniti M45 > Lexus GS 430, Lexus GS 300, Infiniti M35.

    Major observations were that the Japanese cars won in two major areas... Reliability and standard features. That said, if you've got the money for one of these, you are not likely going to have to keep it long enough fix it after the warranty runs out, and you can afford to add options.

    Major advantages for the Germans... styling, build quality (interior materials), driving fun/handling, status, high speed stability (goes with handling).

    I found the German car were drivers cars, while the Japanese cars were more of a consumer's car... The interior of the Japanese all seem to borrow heavily from their lower end parent companies.. the Lexus door handles were right from a Avalon... the Acuras were filled with low grade plastic parts, and the Infinity had a mini-van dash right out of the Quest.. I couldn't see past the interior styling, which was overly busy with too many buttons with fine print, etc.. lots of gee-wiz tech, but not much by way of driver-assisting tech (MB pioneered ESP, ABS, Brake-Assist, etc.. and now the SBC brakes are by far the best of the lot).

    The Germans, were easily the better choice, with build interior styling and build quality being a hands down winner.. materials were of a much higher grade, and the ergonomics were more Euro. The handling, especially on the highways at 80+mph was more sure footed, as these vehicles were clearly designed for a market where people regularly drive at 150mph or more.. Finally, the cars had a design appeal that was unique and had character. Whereas the Japanese cars were just improved versions of their Nissan, Toyota, and Honda names..

    For me it was no comparison, and I was honestly torn between the A6 and the E500.... when I (by accident) discovered the E320 CDI, and had to have it... Honda Civic milage with near E500 performance.. it was a no brainer.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I know you said "My" order and I fundamentally agree with your analysis.

    That's two of us.

    I have to warn "us" though, that I am certain folks will take exception to your (and by affiliation and admission) my conclusions that the German cars will appeal to those who want a car designed (apparently) for drivers and that the Japanese take on the LPS market is less so.

    My first choice was the A6 and my second was the M35X followed by a car I had not been able to test (at that time) the 530xi BMW -- the differences between the M and the A6 were real, but subtle. The M, at the moment I ordered one was priced nearly $200 per month less on a $0 down lease than the Audi.

    In years passed, that differences could have been rationalized as within reason -- no more as all the LPS cars have moved up and moved closer together in feature, function, content and capabilities.

    Only when Audi was able to somehow get the price of a $53,300 A6 to "about the same" (per month and actually a little lower) as a $51,000 M35X was I able to "afford" my first choice.

    My point besides agreeing with you -- at this time -- is to suggest that the Germans cannot rest on their laurels for the Japanese are about to crack the German DNA for their LPS cars. The Germans will have to yet again raise the bar or run the risk of becoming "the new clothes" of the monarchy.

    If that happens (and I am not suggesting I think it will, merely that it could) there will be some urchin in the crowd who will proclaim the spotlight is shining on nakedness rather than royal purple.

    I sometimes wonder when I read the arguments between the German and Japanese crowds if the Germans at this precise moment could be magically imbued with "Japanese reliability" how the sales votes would stack up.

    The Infiniti M35X ("my" opinion) was an acceptable substitute (for the money) for the German car -- but when the German car and the Japanese car could be had for essentially even money, I couldn't imagine going with the Japanese version.

    Somewhere in my college years a marketing professor once said, "if all you've got is low price. . .you don't have much." Do people buy cars first and foremost for price or "the driving pleasure?" If you believe the monthly stats dutifully recorded here, it would seem that people are buying the performance, not the price (and as much as it pains me to note this, I do understand that the Audi is often at the bottom of the list, a subject of "my" continuing bemusement.)

    :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If you call tossing and turning at night wondering if you made the right choice, "bemusement." ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I sometimes wonder when I read the arguments between the German and Japanese crowds if the Germans at this precise moment could be magically imbued with "Japanese reliability" how the sales votes would stack up.

    There appears to be two types of car buyers for LPS.

    1) The ones who are mostly swayed by CR and JD Power statistics
    2) The ones who are mostly swayed by car magazine driver impressions and/or personal test drives.

    Go to any LPS forum and every forum member can be categorized in either group (1) or group (2).

    The Holy Grail for Japanese and German marques will be to attract the both groups above simultaneously. IMO Infiniti and BMW are the closest in accomplishing this. Infiniti M and G are major improvements in perfromance/handling versus their prior models and BMW's reliability is not great but not bad based on current CR/JD Power stats and certainly better than other German marques.
  • mg808mg808 Member Posts: 22
    I totally understand you analysis and in this forum, most readers are split. The one thing you harp on is price. Yes, price is most of the time a considerable part of any purchase, but in the end what are you buying?

    If you buy, depreciating assets = cars. If you lease, well that's renting.

    If driving pleasure, interior build quality and being able to drive at 150+MPH is what you desire, Euro sedans are the choice.

    Regarding your comment of improved versions of Nissan, Toyota & Honda, certainly that comment has two meanings.

    One meaning is that these mfr's don't belong in this segment (possibly your interpretation). The other meaning is that these mfr's build a wide variety of cars and can create incredible machines with excellent build quailty. Forget reliability. Its build quality and the Japanese mfr's create cars with attention to detail similar to and in most cases, exceeding the Europeans in many categories.

    Of the mfr's making midsize-luxury autos, BMW is the only one when it comes to total independence. Mercedes is Chrysler/Mercedes, Audi is VW/Audi, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura. These are world mfr's that share parts, quality and relability. You can't sugar coat a Mercedes R-Class that really is a Chrysler Pacfica with better interior build quality.

    So in the end, if you want a German car with incredible build quality, get the Mercedes S500. Everything else is a globally shared platform sedan with varying price points and a similar list of features.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You can't sugar coat a Mercedes R-Class that really is a Chrysler Pacfica with better interior build quality.

    Are they really or am I mistaken in thinking that both the MB R-Class and Chyrsler Pacifica are different vehicles with different plaforms ?Though their function as a vehicle may be quite similar---a SAV, the new lingo for a minivan.
  • chuck1959chuck1959 Member Posts: 654
    Since station wagons are making some what of a come back. Now the soccer moms will be driving what they should be driving.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We're here talking about sedans ...

    Remember? :)
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    yes....luxury performance sedans....and bemusement ;)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "but not much by way of driver-assisting tech (MB pioneered ESP, ABS, Brake-Assist, etc.. and now the SBC brakes are by far the best of the lot)."

    I'm not sure how you got to that conclusion. I wont argue with your build quality or high speed stability arguments. I'm not saying that I agree with you on those (I dont), but thats a subjective thing. You make it sound as if the Japanese cars are unsafe vehicles though that cant measure up to the Germans in terms of electronics, which is totally incorrect. Who was "first" with this or that feature is totally irrelevant. The Lexus has so much driver-assisted technology that the mags are complaining that Lexus went overboard.

    Wasnt M-B forced to revert to hydraulic brake systems after their vaunted "E-brakes" had a horrible failure rate? If you want to talk just pure stopping distance, the Infiniti M will beat all 3 Germans easily. I'm not talking about "pedal feel" or anything like that, but for just the pure ability for the discs and calipers to stop the car, the Infiniti is unmatched.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    “If driving pleasure, interior build quality and being able to drive at 150+MPH is what you desire, Euro sedans are the choice.”

    I would mention that a car with ability at high speed is incredibly confident at lower civilized speeds and more roadworthy than cars that are not designed to fly. This is one big reason why many people love Euro sedans, not to do 150 mph. When you negotiate an ordinary jug handle in a BMW, you know which car you are driving.
  • audi4lifeaudi4life Member Posts: 1
    I don't know....Audi's slaes have shot up like mad now days..This month hey went up 36%.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    ...always wondered what it would be like to get pulled over for doing 155 in a 35 but the cops let you go if " they can look under the hood of your BMW" :P
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    That reminds me of a story in C&D, where a guy got pulled over in a Murcielago at some 140mph. The guy says to the cop, thats nothing, I was going 201mph before. The cop doesnt believe him, so he invites the cop along for a ride and proves that yes, he can go 201mph.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,499
    is a non-issue to those who lease & don't mind spending time at the dealership, explaining what went wrong this time, then returning later to hope it's fixed. This is a world I've learned about over the past few years, but in which I don't wish to participate.

    "I sometimes wonder when I read the arguments between the German and Japanese crowds if the Germans at this precise moment could be magically imbued with "Japanese reliability" how the sales votes would stack up."

    There's no denying that those of us who have learned that Asian vehicles won't drive (pardon) you to the poorhouse, after the warranty expires, have come to expect that from other vehicles. Sorry/excuse us/etc. If I could buy an Audi with Toyota/Nissan quality, I already would have.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    While this rise year over year (Audi of America) is correct, BMW still outsells Audi in the US by at least 300%, while in the homeland, Audi at this moment appears to be slightly outselling BMW (speaking of the A6 and 5).

    Oddly, the sales numbers of the 5 in Germany and in the US are similar, but Audi in Germany outsells Audi in the US by over 300%.

    I don't claim to be a cultural expert, but I am a frequent traveller to Germany (usually Bavaria and mostly Munich and south through Austria) -- Germans seem (to me) to be THE most like Americans in terms of our technology, cars, etc (even moreso than the British) -- and I would expect similar sales of these two German cars (three actually when you consider the Mercedes versions.)

    Someone here postulated perhaps there are fewer Audi dealers than BMW dealers, plus the hangover effect of "unintended" acceleration.

    I do not have the facts only a sales discrepancy that would be understandable were it not so huge (BMW outsells Audi by about 350% this year.)

    Even more difficult to understand is adding Mercedes to this analysis. Mercedes, too, outsells Audi by at least triple (in the US); and Mercedes recent year quality/product issues have made them even more problematic than Audi and BMW, yet they still blow Audis sales away all the while Audis "reliability" record has improved.

    All the reasons suggested here do have merit. For all I know they are correct.

    I wonder what auto analysts would say, would advise Audi to do assuming the product is actually considered "comparable" to the other two home team companies (and sales would suggest the folks in Germany buy all three of these brands in much more similar quantities than is the case here in the US.)

    At this point these comments and questions are largely rhetorical -- unless or until a "professional" analysis can be compelled or induced to comment in some way.

    Hence my use of the word "bemused." Bemused: to make confused. That would be me on this subject anyway. :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Perhaps I have an explanation. You say the Germans seem to be the most like us, but how important is the badge to them? Nobody seems to be worried about cars like the A-class, Audi A2, or the previous BMW 3 series hatch diluting the "brand image" in Europe. America seems to be the place were the badge is just as important as the car. (Would anybody spend $90K on a Honda in the US?) Here in the US, the three-pointed star and blue and white propeller carry a lot of weight. The Audi badge on the other hand means almost nothing. Take away BMW and M-B's US badge sales, and your left with the enthusiasts that buy Audis. Just MO.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Of the mfr's making midsize-luxury autos, BMW is the only one when it comes to total independence. Mercedes is Chrysler/Mercedes, Audi is VW/Audi, Nissan/Infiniti, Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura. These are world mfr's that share parts, quality and relability. You can't sugar coat a Mercedes R-Class that really is a Chrysler Pacfica with better interior build quality.

    Whoa, the the Pacifica and R-Class aren't on the same platform and they don't share any parts. All they share is the same concept. Mercedes doesn't get any parts from Chrysler either, its the other way around. Mercedes' products are totally independent from Chrysler as BMWs are independent from everything else. So far the only sharing has been in a one-way fashion with old chassis and/or parts no longer in use under a Mercedes (old E,SLK) going to Chrysler to make the 300/Magnum/Charger and Crossfire, respectively.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Wasnt M-B forced to revert to hydraulic brake systems after their vaunted "E-brakes" had a horrible failure rate?

    Well they're still in use (being built) in the cars they came on, but won't be on upcoming Mercedes, so yes if thats what you meant. However this was blown oh so out of proportion as usual. They recalled the system to make some adjustments because some high-mileage E taxis in Europe had some problems with stopping distances, it was less than 50 cars. There were no outright "failures" because the system has a traditional hydraulic backup. Instead of taking chances Mercedes just decided to recall all E, SL, CLS and Maybach models with the system, and for that we have to read about that recall over and over anytime Mercedes is written about in the press. It has gotten really ridiculous at this point imo considering how every brand has recalls and there were more industry recalls last year than ever before.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I think it may have a lot to do with the last A8, which was basically a super-size A4 that couldnt play in the big leagues.

    Why do you say that? The previous A8 didn't sell well, but what exactly was so wrong with it or what kept it from playing in the big leagues? It was a well built car and in "L" form it did more than a good job of playing against S-Classes and 7-Series' imo.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The Holy Grail for Japanese and German marques will be to attract the both groups above simultaneously. IMO Infiniti and BMW are the closest in accomplishing this. Infiniti M and G are major improvements in perfromance/handling versus their prior models and BMW's reliability is not great but not bad based on current CR/JD Power stats and certainly better than other German marques.

    Bingo! Secretly in every luxury brand's marketing and R&D department that is the goal I think.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Well, there was the incredibly bland styling, sloppy handling, and unlike the interior of the current car which is pretty much best in class, the interior of the previous car was as I said basically super A4, with some very un-Audi-like cheesy materials such as on the headliner.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    When it comes to Audi dealerships in America, and the fact that there are fewer than those of BMW and MB isn't it a "what came first, the chicken or the egg" question? Meaning, do BMW and MB have more dealerships than Audi in the US because they were more successful in selling cars here than Audi? I believe that demand dictates the number of dealerships a car manufacturer has in a given area or country. It is a similar situation with Saab. Go to the Northeast and there are lots of Saab dealerships. Go down south and there are barely any. I think that's because Saabs are considered cold weather cars for whatever reason (maybe because they're built in a cold country???) so sales probably wouldn't be as good in the South hence the relative lack of dealerships there. Same with Audi. If America wanted more Audi's there would be more dealerships. The number of dealerships is dictated by sales success rather than sales success being dictated by the number of dealerships in my opinion. Nothing against Audi, but just what I think is a reality of supply and demand.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't remember any of that, especially anything about sloppy handling or cheesy materials. I do remember a lot of people not liking the styling, but then again I don't see where most of them had any room to talk considering what they found to be stylish, if you know what I mean. ;)

    I didn't see the previous A8 as a failure.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Whoa, the the Pacifica and R-Class aren't on the same platform and they don't share any parts.

    Using the platform of an older Chrysler would be the "kiss of death" for the MB brand!

    Here is my speculation of platform sharing that might work:

    The new and upcoming Porsche LPS will most likely be based on the Phaeton platform

    The above idea may sound crazy in itself but let us look at the following facts:

    1) Porsche's intent to offer a LPS. The costs of designing, developing and building such a car from scratch is humungous for such a small company like Porsche.

    2)VW's flop called the Phaeton. As long as there is a VW logo on an expensive car it will not sell! Put a Porsche logo on the hood and it will sell like hotcakes.

    3) Porsche's recent bid to own 20% of VW may address the company's need to go beyond the small niche segment that it currently inhabits.

    Just look at the success of the Porsche Cayenne versus the slower selling VW Tourareg. A Porsche logo on more expensive VW vehicles may be the VW solution in entering the sporty segment of the luxury market.Such a goal may seem redundant for a company that owns the Audi, Lambroughini and Bentley marques, but let us not forget this is VW and not some other rational auto company!!

  • aas5aas5 Member Posts: 50
    I am not sure it was blown out of proportion. I believe Bosch is the manufacturer and invested tons of money and time into developing this system which MB will no longer use at all on their cars. It takes more than just a couple of bad accidents to completely forego using a new technology.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh it was just that imo. I mean as far as it being such a oh-so-terrible thing that the press has to mention each and every time Mercedes is written about. Everyone has recalls for this and that. Difference is that this was Mercedes and with their past reputation I guess a recall is such a shocker. Like I said before the problem cropped up in a few German market E-Class taxis and was fixed. None of the drivers reported not being able to stop their cars.

    Mercedes has had a fundamental shift in their push for new technology and the electro brakes don't fit anymore. Its an answer to a question no one was asking and from everything I've read, a very expensive one too. Even the new S was toned down on the tech side compared to what it was supposed to have in keeping with them wanting to provide a car free of glitches. These brakes simply aren't needed, becuse if they were that bad they would have stopped building them into current, E,CLS,SLR,Maybach and SL models.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I seriously doubt that Porsche would build a sedan based on what is essentially a fwd converted to awd platform, in the VW Phaeton. I can't see it. Everything I've seen so far says Porshe is developing their own platform from scratch. Porshe isn't going to build a car with engine hanging out over the front axle. I can't see it.

    VW and the Phaeton...wonderful car, wrong dealership. This was just one of the many ideas that Mr Ferdinand Piech forced upon the company when he was in charge. He's a car guy for sure, the definition of one actually, but someone on the business side of the house should have reigned him in. This Bugatti Veyron I'm reading about this month is another such product. Late and over budget, but probably the greatest supercar ever built. He actually wanted an eighteen-cylinder engine for the thing! Sheer Madness.

    I could turn VW around in less than a 3 years. The Touareg should have been VW's second SUV, the first one should have been a competitor to the Rav4/CRV/Escape class. The sooner VW forgets this luxury car mess the sooner things will turn around for them.

    Don't get me wrong, when times are good say like at company like Toyota I think they should indulge in a fun project that profits will be thin, but will make a hell of a statement in image and engineering for the company, but VW wasn't and still isn't the position to do cars like the Veyron or Phaeton.

    M
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    The big difference between the Veyron and Phaeton is that in a few years (okay, maybe months...er...weeks....er....now) you'll be able to pick up a Phaeton on the cheap...

    I only wish that could happen with the Veyron. :) Yowza! Some car!
  • dan339gdan339g Member Posts: 56
    I would agree with that "imo" regarding MB reliaiblity...test drove a new (left over) 05 E500 4matic about a month ago, and could both feel and hear a problem (scraping sound) with the front wheels when applying the brakes. The salesman with me let out a loud "sigh" and said, "they still haven't figured out these damn brakes". I did appreciate his honesty, but this and the horror stories I've read in the MB forum was enough to push me away from the 3 pointed star, despite the fact I think it is the most attractively styled player in this segment (subjective opinion, of course).
  • freddybbfreddybb Member Posts: 95
    Strong agreement on this from me as well. We bought a Mercedes ML 430 SUV in a moment of weakness a few years ago and I could not wait to get rid of it for my new 530xi. And this was NOT because of quality problems -- we were very lucky with our ML 430. I just could not stand the detachment from the driving experience and the poor gas mileage! Vive la sedan!

    We do need a larger vehicle to haul the kids and in-laws around on weekends -- and our Odyssey works great for that (car-like ride and decent mileage fully loaded). SUVs are stuck in the middle for most people -- the space of a wagon and the crappy ride and mileage of a truck!!
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