Luxury Performance Sedans

kyfdx · October 2005

Volvo S60 AWD?

A nicer drive than the S80....

Otherwise, I say the G35X AWD...

docnukem · October 2005

Have you also considered the 330xi?

hheelloo · October 2005

I perceived the Volvo S60 awd and the BMW 330xi to lack rear leg room for shuttling executive clients during the week...?

kyfdx · October 2005

That may be true of the 330xi.. but, I think the S60 has as much rear seat room as the 530i...

At least that is my perception...

hheelloo · October 2005

Do people perceive the BMW 330 (X) sedan as "junior exec" (such as the A4)?

designman · October 2005

Not me. I perceive it as an ultimate driving machine. Plus the size has its advantages. The "junior" and "exec" aspect have no influence on me. YMMV.

dan339g · October 2005

Assuming you keep the truck, how about a previous generation Lexus GS430? A nice mix of luxury, performance and reliability that is appropriate for an up and coming "30 something" executive. There should be plenty 03's coming off of lease shortly,and they run in the low $30's. Given this is your work vehicle, you want reliability to be a high priority, and I'd be hestitant to buy a used premium European model for this reason.

designman · October 2005

You have a lot of considerations and need to weigh your preferences I think. I would favor the 330xi but if shuttling execs is high on the list I definitely would lean toward the 530. I have a friend who puts big time miles around LA (and the mountains) and has a 525... loves it.

hheelloo · October 2005

I really like the 2005 G35x sedan (value, performance, entry-luxury, reliability, residual). It seems like the smart money.

My only concern is my being perceived by my exec clients as too "junior" (due to my relatively youthful exec appearance AND my vehicle).

I look forward to forum feedback on this perception (for both G35x and 330x).

dan339g · October 2005

Having owned a 01 530i for 5 years, I can personally attest to its many virtues, however a spacious back seat is not one of them. This is especially true for leg room if the front seat occupants have the seats pushed back. If you anticipate frequent rear seat passengers, I'd look for something larger.

designman · October 2005

Dye your hair gray? Seriously, since you're considering image and impressions then maybe "smart money" has nothing to do with it. IMO the 530 works best in that scenario. Most importantly... confidence!

designman · October 2005

Well, his list is really limited in that regard, no? Again, he has to weigh his preferences.

dewey · October 2005

SIMPLE SOLUTION

1)Ask all senior exec clients what cars they favor.

3)Forget the car that you favor.

3)Buy the car that your senior exec clients favor!

hheelloo · October 2005

i was also thinking of using grey hair dye and walking with a pronounced shuffle.

hheelloo · October 2005

Perhaps a 2003 Audi A6 quattro is the answer. It offers executive presence, style, cargo space and awd. The concerns there are cost, reliability and residual.

designman · October 2005

Indeed, good choice. I overlooked that one. Sorry, it's hard trying to get work done and baby sit for you guys at the same time.

dan339g · October 2005

If you're willing to take a chance on reliability, how about a MB 320 4matic. Of course, you risk your clients thinking you borrowed your father's car :-)

wale_bate1 · October 2005

Are we really saying compacts simply can't provide sr.exec presence? So I should either give up the S4 Avant idea or try to go back to a jr. exec. position?

Oh my, this is a blow.

docnukem · October 2005

Do you have to have a sedan? Another option which would give decent space in the back seat might be the Infiniti FX.

diesel3 · October 2005

let me begin by saying i enjoy this forum so much as i have learned a great deal with all the different opinions. Being the indecisive person that i am, i cant make up my mind with which car to get. I am going to lease a car within the next month and my options are the IS250AWD, G35x, RL (if priced right) and the 325xi. I need awd b/c NY gets hammered sometimes. I am 27 and i want a sports luxury sedan. I am not a fanatic with speed so horsepower isnt the end of the world but i would still like to pass by cars, ya know. The IS looks great in the pictures and i dont care about the size or room in the backseat, but 200hp isnt the best. What do you guys think i should go with as i am looking to spend in the high 30s. I need navigation and some bells and whistles. Thanks alot

markcincinnati · October 2005

At the risk of being booed off the planet -- I will pose a Chrysler 300 AWD -- I think it is possible since your are buying pre-owned (this may take a little longer) to even get a 300C AWD. Fully loaded new they were MSRP'd at $40K. Employee pricing probably took a few thou off of a new one; either a demo or one of those cream puff used ones that every dealer seems to have (somewhere) might do the trick.

Of the things on your list perhaps a G35X (and maybe even a 2005 once the 2006's are out -- would be in the Range$)

markcincinnati · October 2005

Although this is the LPS forum, I will answer: the BMW, if you like the "ride and the view."

It will not be the zippiest, but it will be a very fine driving car -- still the benchmark if that means a hill of beans to you.

You didn't mention the A4 2.0T -- but I add it to your list because it seems to fit most of your criteria and is the least thirsty if that matters.

The BMW and Audi have maintenance included -- do not think this is a minor deal, there are posts here and elsewhere about these cars' routine maint expenses being the equivalent of a 13th car payment every year.

pat · October 2005

I think you'll find more information on those vehicles in the discussion at this link: Entry-Level Luxury Performance Sedans. That's where we are talking about how they all stack up against each other.

lexusguy · October 2005

Hahahaha! Nope, unfortunately I'm not "officially" in the auto biz. I dont think I'd really want to be either, at least not in one of the top spots. I'm sure the stress of my job would be a walk in the park for guys like Schremp, Peich, Ford, or Wagoner. Though something tells me that Katsuaki Watanabe of Toyota currently has things a little easier than they do.

Its much easier to sit on the sidelines and yell at them when they make mistakes. The fact that the Passat 3.6 has a lot more power than the A6 3.2 doesnt really make sense either, but at least Audi has the excuse that they cant use the VR6 engine because of its layout. Perhaps Audi should've increased displacement over the old 3.0 by more than 1120cc or so.

lexusguy · October 2005

That perception would be incorrect. I've been in the back of an S60. Unless the front seat is all the way foward, its a very unpleasant place to be.

Personally, I highly recommend the G35x. Very fast, plenty of rear legroom, AWD, and its a blast to drive. Leasing one is also pretty inexpensive thanks to its super strong residual value.

I also agree with another poster that recommended a previous gen GS. A loaded, CPO GS430 with NAV and ML should be under $40, and the CPO warranty covers it to 7\100K, so theres no worries about used car problems.

jjacura · October 2005

as much as the Acura logo looks like a design engineer's compass,
could one become confused and think it were symbolic chastity
appurtenant to maidens during the dark ages?(there is no motocon for a poker face?)

http://store1.yimg.com/I/united-states-flag_1865_18192856

pat · October 2005

Um, I'm not sure we need to go there. Why don't we just stick to talking about the cars and not speculate on "chastity appurtenant to maidens during the dark ages?"

(Signed, the host, who is not sure I want to go figure out what the heck "appurtenant" means, even though I think I can extrapolate it from the rest of your comments. :P )

hheelloo · October 2005

I have come to the conclusion that my luxury/entry luxury sedan must have AWD.

Thus, what are your under $33K recommendations, taking into account: luxury, executive presence, value, reliability, style, driving impression, rear seat room, cargo space and residual:

2005 Infiniti G35x
2003 Audi A6 quattro
2003 Mercedes C320 4matic
2003 BMW 330x
2004 Infiniti FX35

Thanks for the responses!

acuralady · October 2005

Hi Diesel3, my vote is the 2005 Acura RL. Right now they have a manufacturer incentive of $2500. I have a quote for $40,800 in SoCal. That is probably the lowest you will get at this time. This is $9,000 under MSRP. My second choice is the BMW, but beware of maintenance issues. To bad, you can't find an M35 for under $40,000. That would be my number 1 choice for you.

layer3switch · October 2005

Folks,

I'm ready to replace my 2002 BMW 530i which Iove, but really want AWD for the snowy/rainy winters we get here in New Jersey. I've driven both cars, and really up in the air on which one to get....

The local Acura dealer quoted me 43,200 for an 05 and I'm still waiting on the BMW price, but looking for that car with sat radio and navigation. The Acura has my attention simply because the price is probably going to be 10K less than the BMW. I'd really like to hear from others what made you select which car and why. With my family growing, this is the last luxury car purchase I'll be making for a number of years, and want to get it right.

Thanks!
L3

jjacura · October 2005

WOW....the forum was busy today......have you ever been half asleep and answered a post that was 2 pages old...whew! Pat...I still have to get my "forum entrance" updated so it shows the most recent post. can you please e-mail me with instructions (I know it is in the preferences but have not been able to make it work for me). Thanks, JJ
PS: Appurtenant.....relating to something that is added but not essential. (Sort of like Live-Traffic for me!)

dan339g · October 2005

I think the G35x is your best bet. It addresses all of your criteria quite nicely. Although I have never thought of them this way, they could be perceived as a vehicle favored by the "Jr. Executive", but so what. If you can't afford something new in the premium class, then you ARE a Jr. Executive, and there is nothing wrong with that. At your age it is more important to demonstrate sound judgment by driving a car that best suits this chapter of your life, as opposed to buying a car that portrays a particular image that does not reflect reality. Most people aren't stupid, and they know a "poser" when they see one. Good luck :-)

lexusguy · October 2005

Go for the G35x. The A6 is unreliable, and has a lousy NAV system. Its also a slug unless you get the turbo or the V8. The '03 Audi A6 has much worse CR reliability ratings than a '97 Infiniti Q45. Thats just embarrasing.

A '03 M-B would make me very nervous. Also, '01-'04 C-classes have Hyundai level interiors. Not worth the money. Also, at 33.0", the Benz has less rear legroom than the Volvo or BMW.

The BMW is a great car, but at this point its quite dated in terms of features compared to cars like the G. NAV is also lousy, and if you get it you're stuck with a tape deck. The back seats wont make you any friends.

The FX is currently the closest thing Infiniti has to a G wagon. Keep in mind that it basically has no off-road abilities whatsoever, and not much cargo room either. The dash design is also not so great. Stick with the G35.

bartalk3 · October 2005

I don't think you need AWD in New York City. I lived in New York for years and had no problems with either front drive or even RWD. On those 3 days a year when it snows heavy, take the subway. With RWD you'll save a couple thousand bucks, get better gas mileage, and have a faster car.

mexibec · October 2005

> With my family growing, this is the last luxury car purchase I'll be making for a number of years, and want to get it right.

That's exactly where I was when I sold my '99 528i (best sedan ever built?), plus the desire for more kick. Peace of mind being a factor, I had to eliminate early on BMW & MB, despite being remarkable cars. Any choice among Acura RL, Lexus GS, Infinity M is a solid choice for many years to come. If you narrowed it down to the RL and 530xi, and you want a luxurious & reliable car for 5+ years, go with the Acura. You an I need to wait for the next generation of German cars to seriously consider them.

lexusguy · October 2005

Have you considered the M35x? It basically has 98.5% of the BMW's capabilities, with Japanese reliability. A bit more money than the Acura, but still a lot cheaper than the BMW.

docnukem · October 2005

And with a family, it (the M35x) will give you more back seat room.

dewey · October 2005

You an I need to wait for the next generation of German cars to seriously consider them.

So all German cars are unreliable? Or do you mean just VWs and MBs are unreliable?

I certainly hope you are not including BMW 5s and 3s among them? Because if you are then please look at CR and JD Power stats! If you do look at the stats you will find that reliability is a non-issue for the 3s and 5s. Yes BMWs are not the best in terms of reliabilty but they are certainly not the worst in reliability as most forum members here believe.

BUY THE CAR YOU LOVE TEST DRIVING! DONT GET DISTRACTED BY STATS THAT WILL ONLY MAKE YOU BUY A LUXURIOUS AND COMPETENT APPLIANCE OF A VEHICLE VERSUS THE CAR YOU REALLY LOVE DRIVING.

Before looking at the financial consequences of car maintenance, it should be recommended that all potential buyers look at residual values since depreciation is the NUMBER ONE financial killer in car purchases. Oh and by the way, BMWs are NUMBER ONE in terms of residual values!

sdiver68 · October 2005

Hmmm, M35x has 98.5% of a BMW 530xi? According to almost every review and my own experience, the BMW has 95% of the M35x capabilities with less reliability, customer satisfaction, and residual value. And, the M35x runs pretty close to 530xi pricing when you consider BMW's free maintenance and subsidies, although you do have to take into account the BMW is predicted to depreciate more than the M35x.

At ~$41K loaded, the RL is a great deal. If I didn't have to have the V8, the RL would have been real hard to pass up.

dewey · October 2005

Just curious,

what BMW530xi vs. Inifiniti M35x reviews are you basing your opinion on?

sdiver68 · October 2005

Car and Driver, Road and Track, Consumer Reports,
Edmunds own Inside Line, JD Powers, ALG residual values, and my own experience as a lifelong auto enthisiast and licensed Top 10 plate expert road racer who had the 5 series, RL, and M at the top of my shopping/comparison list.

markcincinnati · October 2005

I do think the reviews (not talking about residuals) have lauded the M as "getting very close" to the driving dynamics and capabilities overall of the BMW -- not the other way around.

Of course, even those articles have proclaimed the M "the top dog." But, I have not run across an article that says the BMW is X% of the M. Rather that the M wins in part because it is "close enough" for jazz to the BMW and also offers other (non performance related amenities and reliabilities, etc. -- including value) that are superior to any of the current crop of German LPS cars.

Remember, this is from a guy who ordered then cancelled an M35X then ordered and took delivery on an A6 once the value proposition (directly put: price parity) was achieved.

I am not saying that the M has not been reviewed somewhere as "superior" to the BMW 5, I just can't recall this conclusion (with respect to driving dynamics) with Car & Driver, Motor Trend and Road & Track. Moreover, Automobile (for reasons that seem a bit elusive) favored the A6 above all the other LPS's candidates they tested.

Time after time, the BMW 3 and 5 cars are proclaimed "the standard bearers" when it comes to being "sport sedans." The word of caution to BMW seems to be that Infiniti's G and M are closing the gap and gaining rapidly on the Bimmers.

kdshapiro · October 2005

People who are Lexus fanatics are utterly peeved the new Lexus (and 2nd time around) cannot seem to edge BMWs roadside prowess and still plays second fiddle to BMW. What Lexus sells (supposed reliabilty) is not really a priority item for a lot of car shoppers, including myself. But people who are Lexus fanatics use the reliability as the selling point of the car. Saying BMWs are crappy is just as accurate as saying Lexus' don't handle well.

As far as the image thing goes, what does one think car manufacturers are selling including BMW? Ever see auto ads and how they try to evoke some emotional connection to the car? What the heck is Lexus, Acura and Infiniti selling, the upscale marketing arm of the respective base companies trying to sell? Cars and image?

It just amazes me the thought process that BMW sells image but Lexus sells transporation. Yeah right.

sdiver68 · October 2005

True enough, MarkCinc, when it comes to SUBJECTIVE ratings based on a balance of all reviews, although C&D in particular had some nasty comments about the 530 track capabilities. There is little doubt that subjectively the BMW feels a little more communicative than the M at moderate pace, and the M has a little bit yet to go on feel at moderate pace. However, when you look at objective performance numbers (acceleration, handling, braking) as measured by R&T or C&D, the M ties or wins most objective categories engine for engine, and outright blows BMW into the water $ for $. For instance, the fair comparison $ for $, feature for feature is the 530 v the M45.

I learned my lesson about subjective versus objective while trying to race my Porsche versus Corvettes, and the poor souls trying to race Ducatis versus my Suzuki GSXR. On the track, the hard way. Objective always wins (given roughly equal drivers/riders that is

)

Well, I can hear some people arguing, who cares about the track? Well, if that is the case with you, then anything plus or minus 20% should do fine for you, since you should rarely if ever exceed 80% of a car's total capability on the street.

Or how about a supercharged M35X versus a 530ix, if you want to look at $ for $ in the AWD category.

zidecar · October 2005

Great minds think alike, as my "short list" also included the A6 and the M35X.
.....
I would question "value" however, as this means different things to different people.

I fully agree. "Value" for the dollar for me came down to equipping each car with the same set of features/options and looking at the cost. The M35x was the clear winner.

As for emotional appeal, both the M and A6 tickled my adrenaline about equally. It was then easy to resort to the other factors as differentiators.

I had entered into my quest for an AWD luxury sedan with the A6 as my front runner. As I looked more closely at the vehicles meeting my objectives, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the M had migrated to the top of the pack.

dewey · October 2005

Interesting! How you use the words subjective and objective is such a decisive manner when the reviewer himself conveys his preferences quite clearly.

At least you agree that the 5 series remain the benchmark vehicle!

But what is really interesting is when you use a review that was based on the BMW 530 equipped with the outdatded 215hp 3.0l engine! Can the M35 compete with the new and improved BMW5? That is a more appropriate question to ask, dont you think?

So the M35 has superior residual values than the BMW530. I read both are among the top 10 in terms of residual values. I am willing to wager that the residual values between the two cars are a mere trifle and to use such a trifling amount to justify purchasing a M makes your agument less justifiable.

dewey · October 2005

Regarding upscale image:

If the more humble Honda or VW had a RWD car that can compete with a BMW3/5 or Infiniti G/M, I would be the first one to visit their dealerships.

markcincinnati · October 2005

Perhaps Objective aces Subjective. Indeed, I might so stipulate that there is NO perhaps about it -- objective can be proven, subjective cannot.

It doesn't matter though -- or it doesn't matter much.

I can tell you all day long why I did what I did with respect to my car (and my wife does the same thing, now that she has switched to BMW.)

It is the Subjective that makes the sale when it is said and done. I am not suggesting that the Objective is not important. I am not even suggesting that for some folks (perhaps you) they really do buy cars on their objective merits first, followed by the subjective.

I have read many articles that identify, quantify and specify the "facts, figures, measurements, reliability, dealer treatment, etc." pertaining to cars that "objectively" concludes Lexus (sometimes it is Acura, or Infiniti, but often Lexus) is "the best car" in a certain category.

Then I can read an article written by someone like a Jay Leno (or a less well-known celeb like one of the editors or contributors to C&D) who will, at once, identify the Lexus (et al) as the perfect car and perfectly boring in the same paragraph.

For most of us, cars are so emotional that the subjective outweighs the objective.

Cars and spouses, in my experience and observation, are chosen NOT for or by objective criteria -- quite the contrary.

This is not to say that we don't consider the objective, it is just that we rarely decide based on "facts."

Most of us vote for the President -- most Vice presidents never get to take over the presidency due to the untimely demise of the President. Yet, so much care in choosing the VP is taken for the sake of "balance?" The top of the ticket is the President, the top of the decision criteria for most of us is the subjective. Objective rationalizations or whatever you may want to characterize them as are like the Vice presidential candidate -- they're there for "balance," or for the "XXX" vote (where XXX is the "votes needed" of the day, be it southern or northern or eastern or mountain men, women, minorities, spanish speaking, Italian speaking, or silent majority votes, you know: whatever, du jour.)

And, to further underscore, I seriously doubt anyone of us would ever admit that we'd take something "plus or minus 20%" -- even if there is more than a grain of truth to that observation (objectively -- which, see above, doesn't cut it for most of us.)

I, on the other hand, bought my new Audi A6 for entirely objective reasons, it is the best LPS car there is -- and that's a fact, not opinion.

I don't know which one of these Emotorcons means sarcasm, maybe it is the wink? Heck, beats me.

:confuse:

Drive it like you live. :shades:

layer3switch · October 2005

Hi folks,

Let me first say I'm a die-hard BMW fan. Always have been. My wife drives an X3 and I have an 02 530i. I'm ready to replace my 530, as I really want an AWD car and SAT/NAV.

My last AWD vehicle was an 01 Audi A6 2.7 which was arguably the worst ownership experience of my life. Not only was the car a mechanical train wreck, but the local dealership was awful. I drive a lot for work, and although my RWD 530 hasnt really let me down in rain and snow, I still like the idea of AWD... After making the emotional decision to plop down between 45-55K for a new car, I set about creating my short list. The BMW was a natural, as I've always loved them. I found the Lexus AWD and Infiniti unappealing and have never liked Mercedes. Then, along comes this RL... It's pretty amazing, loaded, drives great and it's 10K cheaper than a comparable 503xi with SAT/NAV! But, I'm not sure it's quite a BMW in terms of performance and handling. Yes it drives great, but there is something missing. I'm just not whats missing is worth 10 grand...

Is the RL a 5 Series killer?

markcincinnati · October 2005

Residual values are NOT entirely objective, to continue a theme -- the residual values used by the leasing arms of most manufacturers are manipulated from time to time (usually within truly objective bounds, but for a purpose -- usually to subsidize a lease.)

I assume the BMW has a strong residual, I also assume the Infiniti does.

I do remember a time when Cadillac's were offered at a residual of 60% -- of course this made their lease payments low and the leases virtually impossible to exit early, since the residual was "insured" based on "full-term" lease customers.

So, saying that BMW has stronger or weaker residuals than the Infiniti may be true this month, then next month the leasing arm may "play with the residual" to the tune of a few points one way or another which will completely change the financial picture pertaining to that vehicle.

Audi, for me, was not willing to raise the residual to an artificially high number, but they took it to the limit of reality, lowered the money factor and the cap cost to come up with a payment that I would accept.

A co worker leased a Chrysler product, the deal was sweet, but the residual was so high he was literally forced to keep the car full term (they would not even allow him to pay the last 6 months and turn the car in, it was so far upside down -- he had to put the car in his garage, keep it insured and essentially worship it from afar.

There is a point here: nothing, or at least little, is proved by residuals unless they are NOT the residuals used by the leasing arms of the various car companies.

Now, you tell me -- if you go to a bank to get a lease on a new SUX 6000 from XXX and the payment it $75 more than the same car when financed/leased through the XXX acceptance corp of the XXX car company, which one will you go with?

Most of us, and I guess I should say I am speaking for myself, don't know how real the residual numbers that we see in the fine print in the WSJ for the new BMW, Jaguar, Audi, etc. really are.

Long ago, I gave up trying to buy cars -- also long ago I gave up trying to buy cars based on their MSRP's -- the numbers are fluid, the numbers are manipulated and unless I am paying cash for a car, I guess even then, the numbers just won't do THAT much to sway me one way or another.

My friend who used to own an Audi, Porsche and VW store told me that 75% of the Audi's and Porsche's were leased -- he claimed no one really cared what the car's MSRP was, only what the monthly figures and out of pocket fees were.

I do believe the BMW has a better residual than the Audi, for instance -- and perhaps that explains somewhat why BMW sells over 300% more than Audi here in the US. It doesn't explain the situation in Germany itself however where both cars are at price parity and are apparently accepted about equally in terms of annual sales.

Luxury Performance Sedans

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles