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Luxury Performance Sedans

18384868889201

Comments

  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    Hmmm...the Infiniti GT-R rear end is what the Cobalt shoulda' been. The GT- R is much cleaner and more refined.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I suppose this would be Cobalt SS inspired as well.

    image
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    All Ferraris have four circular rear lights, as well. All Skyline GT-R's have had them. BTW, how many generations of Cobalt are there?
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Who said anything about the rear end being "inspired" by a Cobalt?? "Looks like" and "inspired" don't mean the same thing.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    In the November 2005 issue of Motor Trend there is a comparison of the 2006 Infiniti M45 sport vs the 2005 BMW 545i non-sport(both with automatic trannys). The 545i came out ahead.
    To my delight, this is the same car I have: non-sport, steptronic.
    "Nothing pours performance like a Bimmer. A sublime machine."
    Just goes to show. Even without the sport package, the 545i is a great car.
    Nice job Motor Trend!
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    The only other comparison I know of directly between the M45 and 545i was Road and Track, in which the M45 won. With Car and Driver, the M45 'comparos' with the 530i due to the huge price differential between the M45 and 545i.
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    It appears they tested the "machine", not the on-board electronics. Not that human-machine interfaces are not important... they are. It's just that BMW broke new ground with iDrive in 2004 and paid dearly for a while - maybe still are to a degree. Believe it is getting sorted out and is only difficult to use if you want it to be difficult to use. Still the best driving experience in the class, if my 2003 proves anything, IMO.

    The minimalist user interface design of the BMW cockpit is very German to me. So are the cupholders :D - a definite afterthought in the driving experience BMW touts. To me, and probably not to others, luxury is measured by excellent engineering and the overall performance balance in this superb car. It became the benchmark for a reason in much the same way Japanese cars became benchmarks in the compact/economy class.

    Now that Germany, Japan and a still-struggling US auto sector vie for a broader cross-section of buyers, they will each venture into untested waters for a while until they learn what works and what doesn't. Question is, who will learn the best??
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "They tested the "machine", not the on-board electronics."
    Yeah and thank the Lord, NOT THE DESIGNS!!
    How refreshing to read a comparo about the performance of the vehicles!

    The thing they really didn't like was the Beemer's active steering. Thankfully, I didn't order mine with this option. A milder objection was the 3-blinking lane changing stalk. I went deep into the bowels of iDrive (wearing my decontamination suit, of course) and changed the 3-blinker to a normal lane changer. Glad iDrive gives one the flexibility to customize the car to one's preferences.

    For anyone interested, two of the usual suspects brought up the rear: 2005 MB E500 and 2005
    Cadillac STS V8.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Hmmmmmm....that's why I gave you only a "GLIMMER OF CREDENCE" on Cobalt thing.
    (GLIMMER ...meaning to appear faintly.) a cursory, fleeting, quickly fading likeness comparison that basically falls short of the GT-R.)

    To bring us back to LPS cars I'm predicting that the remaining new 2005 RL's on the dealer lots are going to be gone in a very short period of time. Any predictions on how close to MSRP the 2006's will bring?
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Did the Bimmer man remove his decontamination suit before returning to the comfort of his home? ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Remove the....?
    DOH!!!!
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "I went deep into the bowels of iDrive (wearing my decontamination suit, of course) and changed the 3-blinker to a normal lane changer."

    Did you remove the decontamination suit .....ah nevermind... Enjoy your weekend!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Deep into the bowels of iDrive. One heck of a sobering experience. It has changed me in a strange, disorganizing sort of way. And yet, I must say, I hope I never, ever have to go there again.

    I can visualize Mr Spock holding the controller knob with both hands, concentrating on the Vulcan Mind Meld as the iDrive system communicates through his voice: "PAIN! SO MUCH PAIN!....."
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "For anyone interested, two of the usual suspects brought up the rear: 2005 MB E500 and 2005 Cadillac STS V8."

    That definitely shows how much power M-B image still has, at least for the E class anyway. Its (comparitively) old for the class, and I have not seen it win any recent comparo, in fact its usually not even in the top 3. Yet it continually fights the 5 for most sales every month.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The MB was the most expensive vehicle in the comparo (MB $63,000, BMW $61,000 as tested).
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Has Mercedes improved their reliability any in recent years?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The 2004 E class is well below average, and CR still "predicts" poor reliability. Supposedly things are better for the '05 MY cars. We'll see.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The E is only a year older than the 5-Series. The E hasn't done that bad in these comparos considering it is the oldest and that it isn't a sporting machine like the 5-Series or M45. I seem to remember it doing better than all the other Euro cars in that C&D comparo. For a 5-Series to lose to an E-Class in any competiton is big news. You would think that with all the newer cars just introduced the E would be pushed to the back of the line but that hasn't been the case. The E-Class has a timeless appeal for those who want more of luxury slant on this class imo. Motor Trend did say that if the test was about power and class/taste (or something like that) the E would win. Now if MBUSA would offer a real sports package like on the European E things might be different, especially once the E500 gets the 382hp V8 next year. Even now with "only" 302 hp the E wasn't the slowest car in the test. The 07 should be a 5.0 sec 0-60 car. Besides sales are never made or broken by magazine comparos anyway. If that was the case the E would have never managed to lead this class in sales for so long because it has only outright won once since 2003 and that was against all of previous generation cars in C&D when the current E first came out.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Purely a prestige thing I guess.
    It's a good thing for MB that most of its customer base probably doesn't read the magazine comparos.
    I haven't read a MB sedan rave in quite a long time.
    Does anybody recall a MB sedan coming in at least second in any comparo over the last 5 years?
    Yet I wouldn't hesitate for even one second if someone offered me a test drive in an E or an S.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I definitely wouldnt hesitate if offered a test drive for an E55. I've driven that car several times, its soo much fun. Its not a track car like the M5, but mash the accel on the highway, and it feels like the car has a turbojet in the trunk. The supercharged Jaguar 4.2 is quick, but the AMG engine is a monster.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Devastatingly quick! Rode in one with a buddy and 2 other golfers running late for a Tee time. A lone state trooper coming at us on a county trunk pulled us over and wrote the driver a 6 point ticket. :blush:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    One of the few cars where you can go fast enough to lose your liscense on the entrance ramp :)
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Yep and my RL would probably feel like a fogie's car behind the AMG that has what....460 HP and does 60MPH in 4.3 seconds...Not too shabby. Not as quick as a Corvette or a Porsche but then that's a whole different class and subject.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Okay, so as a long-time defender of the E60 I have to say that the 2006 A6 Avant is an impressive machine. My wife just traded her ML320 for it, and it is truly a beautiful car. I had driven the Allroad last year, and thought it was okay, but boring. Nothing boring about the new A6 so though I have said in the past that I find Audi's boring I am retracting that now. I don't even mind the huge grill so much. MMI is easy to use, and the interior quality of the car is great. I don't think that iDrive is any more difficult to use, at least in the E60, but the interface itself is much better looking in MMI. I actually went so far as to test drive the A6 sedan (3.2 not 4.2), and was impressed with it also. The one I drove had the S-Line package, and was a dealer demo so I didn't feel bad about driving it agressively. It responded beautifully. My 545 may outperform it, but for the money it's a great choice. In fact, everyone my wife shows the car to thinks it's beautiful (it's Artic Grey which is a great color for it), and most of them are people that did not like previous Audi's. While I think that the old A6 was largely an afterthought by Audi in comparison to the effort they put into the A4 and A8, the new version clearly got plenty of attention. And all of the different storage options for the bay in the Avant are pretty cool too!
  • carnaughtcarnaught Member Posts: 3,497
    I agree with your accessment of the new A6, beautifully done and a lot of fun to drive. The new grill has grown on me and I do not think it looks excessive, rather aggressive. Until Audi's resale improves, however, I would only lease not buy the car.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Perhaps its just me, but I think the interior of the new A6 is a step backward from the last one. The previous car had an uncharacteristically warm and inviting interior for a german car, almost Jaguar like. The new one is typical teutonic, cold and computerized. Its not so much a cabin as a "driver interface compartment".

    image

    image
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    The All New Audi A6 Avant is the Nicest looking wagon I've seen.
  • airlinephotoairlinephoto Member Posts: 60
    Let me get this straight- that is the A6 interior? it can't be- if that car is compared to an 06GS, MB-E or comparable car's interior then there is no comparison, there is more cheap looking plastic here than well I dont know, but to me this is not a luxury cabin, not even close.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,889
    you could have convinced me that first shot is of the inside of my '98 volvo.

    yes, i love my volvo, but its 8 years old. I wouldn't want to find it on a new car I'm thinking of buying.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    My comment was regarding the Exterior http://www.audiusa.com/model_home/0,,bodyStyleId-5,00.html?bodystyle=a6avant which is excellant. You meant to reply to Lexasguy regarding his INTERIOR comparison photos.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Well, maybe sitting in it is different than pictures of it because sitting in my wife's car I think it feels very welcoming. One other thing is that the above car has a grey interior whereas my wife's is black which I think looks much nicer. I do think that poor flash work adds to how bad that picture makes the interior look too.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I don't know if you've ever been in one or if you're just going off of the picture, but I would encourage you to sit in one before mentioning cheap plastic. I would say that the interior of the A6 uses top-flight materials. In fact, I'll go so far as to say I think it's much nicer than my 545's interior. I've been in the E and the LS (never the GS though) and I can tell you that neither uses less plastic or has a more quality feel at least in my opinion. The entire top of the E's dash is all hard plastic. I didn't think that the Allroad's interior was great or very luxurious, but the new A6 is definitely both.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Not to mention a gray interior never looks comforting or inviting. It's, IMO, the coldest interior of them all. Depressing even.

    On another note, rich545, which seats do your wife have, the sport or the regular. Do you guys notice the side of the seat cushion pokes you in the rear/thigh on entry/exit? It's like a really hard edge where the seat controls are. That's been my experience with the normal seats. I haven't had the opportunity to try the sport seats yet.
  • airlinephotoairlinephoto Member Posts: 60
    No, i've never been in a an A6 but the pictures speak volumes. I'm going to sound a bit harsh but please allow me my honest thoughts:
    Let's take the GS as an example of a compare-

    GS steering wheel- real birds eye maple wood and leather wrapped
    A6 steering wheel- all plastic, like a Cavalier I would dare say

    GS radio/nav- radio knobs are chrome ringed, entire radio/button set up looks very rich
    A6 radio/nav- just looks cheap, i'm sorry, but for a 50 thousand dollar car what they put in is a travesty

    GS gauges- beautiful steel bezel, numbers illuminate in any light
    A6 gauges- ok, will do, but for 50 grand man, I dont know.

    Again, i'm just speaking my mind- had this been a 24K car, i'd have said nothing but if Audi is looking to gain ground on the GS's RL's, 530's, E's, M's of this world, then i'm absolutely unimpressed. Am I the only one??
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,498
    It may be time to recall that the Euro vs Dollar situation has gone way south over the past four years.

    Or not.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    You really need to go sit inside, and drive, an A6. Your info is misguided. The A6 has a leather wrapped sterring wheel (and I believe wood is optional). The dials for the MMI, climate, radio volume, etc. are chrome trimmed. The guages are backlit in all lighting conditions and plenty visible.
  • airlinephotoairlinephoto Member Posts: 60
    Perhaps I do indeed need to see it in person and I know that flash harshens things alot but still i'm unimpressed- now look at this if you want to see sumptuous luxury appointments-

    http://lexus.com/assets/models/gallery/photos/main_assets/interior/GS-493.jpg
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Pictures can actually be very bad a speaking volumes. If you've ever looked at a house you'd probably agree. My wife's A6 has a wood and leather wrapped sterring wheel. The NAV system in the A6 is anything but cheap. It was designed by a Japanese firm as even Audi admits that they aren't as good at it. The bottons and dials in the car all feel like they are very high quality. Again, I know you're just expressing your opinion, but please go sit in one before you make assumptions based on a picture. You may still hate it, but I was pleasantly surprised. My opinion is that Audi offers the best value-for-money in the segment. I don't know about the GS, but the E and E60 both easily cost $10K more than the A6. Certainly, my 545 is much faster and handles better than the 3.2 A6, but I don't know if the same would be true of the 530xi or 350 E. I'm just saying that I think it's a very nice car, and I can tell you that everyone that she's shown the car to thinks it's hot as hell (including people that would have never bought and Audi before).
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    You get no argument from me that the GS has a nice interior, though I find both the GS and the A6 interiors to be a bit "antiseptic." But not bad at all.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    She has the regular seats, and it's funny you mention that. I felt it everytime I got out of the passenger seat. I almost felt like I was breaking the seat! Hopefully I'm not heavy enough to do that!
  • airlinephotoairlinephoto Member Posts: 60
    I truly believe that you are right, that if I sit in one, it will be better than the picture shows, but still I don't think that "luxury" will scream at me when I sit in it.. -can you take a pic of your wife's interior and show us? i'm curious to see it
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I'll give it a try tonight, but though I have a nice camera (Nikon D70) I'm not a professional. I'm sure Lexus used a pro to take their shot. In the meantime though look at this pic from Audi's website:

    http://www.audiusa.com/model_gallery/0,3525,bodyStyleId-4_area-1_subarea-2_mediaId-7000401- 5683,00.html?bodystyle=a6sedan
  • airlinephotoairlinephoto Member Posts: 60
    The audi site interior photos definetely look much better than the first ones we saw, yes. The D70 will be tough unless you have a wide wide angle (like 12-16mm) because of the 1.5X multiplier factor of the sensor.
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    Yeah, the widest I go is 18mm so it probably will be tough. The website picture is more true to life anyway though.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I have no complaints in regards to Audi's materials quality. They still rank with the best of the best in terms of materials quality, panel gaps, etc. I just dont like how cold the overall "ambiance" of the interior became. Pretty much all of the previous car's elegant curved surfaces became flat and dull.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Audi is rather universally regarded as having the finest interiors of luxury sedans. Regardless of performance, comfort, price, etc, all the comparos always remark on how great the Audi interiors are. I'd definitely agree, as well, of course. I'd also agree that you need to see one to really know. It certainly does not have the look of "cheap plastic" in person.....
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    All this talk about Audi interiors!
    Where is Mark Cincinnati when needed to keep us spellbound with a few dozen paragraphs on the history of Audi interiors? ;)

    "Mares eat oats and does eat oats, and little lambs eat ivy"

    speaking of top interiors check out what Edmunds feature for 2005
    http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/top10/103266/article.html
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I really have very little to add to this discussion about the interiors. Those who read the auto and enthusiast car magazines (like them or not) know that Audi, for years, has been credited with having "the best interiors." Regardless of other attributes (at the moment), the Audi interiors are said to be second to none.

    I would love to wax poetic on this subject, for it is the interiors of Audis that are time and time again said to be "jewel like" and as far as the switchgear is concerned, the switches and knobs seem like high end audio equipment in terms of their tactile feel and appearance.

    But I will not spend another 1,500 words trying to convince someone, anyone, who hasn't seen them in person but has seen the pictures posted here and has concluded the Audi interiors are cheap. Why not?

    Because, unless I miss my guess, those of us who think Audi interiors have few peers but many "rivals" (who repeatedly miss the mark) -- no matter what their credentials as auto journalists might be -- are expressing opinions and are basing their remarks on emotion.

    The LPS cars have been written about time and again and I would have thought that "nobody doesn't love Audi interiors." Obviously, this isn't the case -- some folks just like their choices, their faves more. It is a free country.

    Quantity may count -- maybe it doesn't -- but, the quantity of glowing reviews about Audi interiors dominates the reviews and comments about LPS interiors overall.

    Audi interiors are the benchmark -- other aspects pertaining to Audis (and the LPS cars generally) are way wide open for debate. Audi interiors, however, are what the other guys aspire to.

    This "fact" doesn't make it a universal truth. If you are looking for truth -- you've come to the right place. Let the debate continue.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Very succinct. :)
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