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Luxury Performance Sedans

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Comments

  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Could have swore you were interested in the GS 430 - vaguely remember you went down to work out a lease deal but Lexus's numbers couldn't compete with the 545 deal.

    Most of my neighbors (The OC) drive 525/530 and E350. I doubt any of them are concerned with either car's supporty character - just based on how they drive them - IMHO of course. Do see a fair number of Audis here. Maybe Mark should relocate - how's markorangecounty sound?
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Are you joking? MB and BMW worry about Ford?
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    One other thing I'd add is that the M is cheaper than the 5, and that would come into play here as well. Let's leave the M5 out of the discussion because it's way more expensive than the M, but if you liked the 5 and M roughly equally, and you could get the M with a V8 for the same price as the 530 wouldn't you go with the V8 equipped car?

    Actually the M isn't much cheaper than the 5. Because a majority of people lease these cars and BMW has much more attractive lease rates (subsidize rates) than Infiniti, their monthly payments are fairly close even if their MSRPs are not. When I compared them back in March/April the BMW 545 was actually cheaper to lease than the M45! Remember BMW is in the rental business when it comes to the 5-series.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Are you joking?

    Are you joking about not getting whether I was joking? Did you ever see the movie "When Harry Met Sally", and did you note the title of my post?

    Next time, I'll be sure to add a winking smiley face ;) to make sure my sarcasm isn't too subtle....
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I mentioned this a few days ago, in a post titled "Edmunds get a fat check from Lincoln?"

    I just read the first test of the Zephyr, where Edmunds literally gushed over the car, with the kind of sentiment normally reserved for cars like the 3 series. They talk about the Ford Duratec like its one of the worlds greatest engines, and yet have complained about the exact same engine in other Fords. They then go on to talk about the "agressive" pricing at around $36K loaded. Agressive vs. who? What are you really getting for 8 grand over a loaded Fusion or Milan? The '70s dash design?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    What I am stating is fact.
    The folks down here drive E's, S's and LS430's.
    They vote overwhelmingly republican.
    Conservative cars. Conservative votors.
    Draw your own conclusion.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yes. I had an excellent lease deal on the GS430 but didn't like the touchy brakes or the gimmicky steering. Also, being 6'2", I had trouble finding a comfortable seating position for my legs.
    Add the 3 year maintenance costs of $1500 for the Lexus and overall, the 545 was the better deal ($3200 less over the course of the lease for the 545.)
    I got the 545 lease at 2.4% interest.
    The salesguy at Lexus was so nice, though...A far cry from the disinterested BMW guy.

    Seeing an Audi seems to be a rare event down here and that seems to be reflected in the sales figures.
    CRs latest auto survey has the S4, A6 and A8 as below average in reliability.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Sorry, lexusguy, I somehow missed that post of yours. Funny how we both tagged the review as "gushing". Needless to say, I agree with your thoughts on this (as usual).

    BTW, I think it might help to put in the link to an article that is being discussed, so everyone can see for themselves what the poster is referencing.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    It may be a fact about your specific neighborhood, but it's anecdotal in terms of statistics.

    In any case, we really don't need to go there, we've got plenty to talk about without dragging politics into it. This time of year, most of us are pretty overloaded with that subject anyway. :cry:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Um, which article? You linked to the Zephyr First Drive here and I thought that's what you two were talking about: garyh1, "Luxury Performance Sedans" #4764, 5 Nov 2005 2:25 am.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Yes, that was my post, but lexusguy had mentioned this article previously in his post (but hadn't linked to it):

    LPS #4736 Nov 2

    Now I see even more clearly what can happen when references are not linked! We can even confuse our host!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Heh. Noted for next time.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Yeah, I know that was the post to which you were referring, but what really made me not understand what you wanted was that it seemed like you were asking for a link to an article that you'd already provided.

    WHATever!! :P
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    The CR ratings on the new A6 is pure speculation as the numbers are not sufficient for them to draw a true conclusion. Somewhere in the fine print it states that this is based on prior years numbers factored in for "anticipated performance"...

    As someone else has said the worse than average reliability rating comes from "the predicted reliability" which averages the past three model years to get their rating. Obviously, if you use the average reliability of the past three model years it will have a negative affect the current cars "predicted reliability". If you compare them, the 2005 A6 had better reliability than BMW 05' 530i, 04' M3, Z4, and 05' Acura RL yet those cars are said to have average reliability.

    And yet Audi's A6 sedan scored an "Excellent" rating in the September issue of Consumer Reports, ranking second in a comparison of new top-rated luxury sedans priced around $50,000 and was barely beaten by the Infiniti M35.
  • m45sporteem45sportee Member Posts: 4
    In Los Angeles the difference was quite large - I got a fully loaded M45 Sport with 3K down for $700month where the same equipment on a 545 with same down was $200 more a month (39mo lease). And in saying that - there were a lot of things that were incomparable for me (comfort of seats were far greater in Infiniti as I am very tall(6'6")) I have had the infiniti for 1K miles and absolutely love it more and more after every trip!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    While reliability is obviously a big stickler with CR, they will not give a good car a bad rating if it doesnt do so hot in their reliability surveys. They wont give the car the "recommended" tag, but they will still rate it very high.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I am approaching 9,000 miles on my 2005 A6 3.2 (standard suspension, 18" 245 x 40 high-performance A/S Continental ProContac.)

    Service intervals on this model are 5,000 for the first oil change, then 10,000 thereafter. When I had my car in for the 5,000 mile service, the mileage indicator "to next service" was apparently NOT reset. I called the dealer and the service manger told me it was a 5 minute reset and I could come in anytime I wanted -- even without an appointment.

    My dealer does have Saturday hours -- so I decided to go to breakfast while the 5 minute job was being taken care of, knowing they would insist on vacuuming, washing, hand drying and all the mini detail stuff they always do and THAT would make the whole affair take an hour.

    Well of course they wanted to clean my car and what the heck it is a nice perk, so I did allow it. Since it was going to be in their facility, I asked the SM to inflate the front tires to 33 pounds and the rears to 31. My assumption is that the pressure had been set to the lowest in the range at the initial service interval.

    When I picked the car up, it was clean and shiny, the SI indicator had been set and the tires were as I requested.

    As if you need to know more detail to make the point about "my new car. . . ." Perhaps, like you, I have several routes that I am intimately familiar with, driving routes that I can drive almost with impunity and can pretty much flog the car around and see how it does.

    My "test route" includes a particularly interesting curve, marked 15mph. My old 2003 allroad (with a lowered suspension, 20% stiffer anti-roll bar and 18" 245 x 40 tires) was able to take this curve at 45mph with just a wee bit of tire yowl. The 2005 A6 just never quite seemed "comfortable" doing this -- until today.

    I had driven about 6 miles on the newly inflated shoes and had already noticed improved turn-in and a slight reduction of the plowing that can be induced in even the S class Audis (all Audis tend to understeer -- at some point -- as they are, after all, nose heavy.) Indeed the car seemed lighter on its feet and more willing to coast when the throttle was released.

    So, when I approached my 15mph curve and there were no cars in sight in either direction, I sped up to 45+ mph and went into the turn almost expecting the car to run a little wide of my lane.

    Son of a gun if the car did not carve through the turn like the proverbial hot knife through a stick of butter.

    At the apex of the curve, I confidently pressed the accelerator down just enough to induce the transmission to shift down from third to second (I was driving in "S" mode -- which is about the only way you can drive one of these something-tronics and keep your sanity) and the tach climbed, the speed picked up and I grinned from ear to ear.

    Now, until this moment, I have been somewhat critical of the high-performance A/S tires as being adequate. Indeed, I believe I have said several times, that the A6 as mine is equipped is "under tired."

    This critique is almost certainly still valid. Now, of course, I wonder how much better this would be with ultra-high performance A/S tires or, maximum performance summer only tires.

    I know, it gets better and I'm never satisfied. . . .same as you, I bet.

    The point is, I checked the F/R weight distribution of several of these LPS AWD cars and sure enough most of them ARE nose heavy (this includes the M35X which was one of my alternate choices.)

    I also checked the inflation standards that seem to be recommended by some of these manufacturers. Often the recommendations are for equal F/R inflation pressures and sometimes even for additional pressure in the rears.

    Yet, with the Audi classroom instruction I received in Germany (about the improvements in handling that accompany the load shift to the front tires when one brakes before turning, waits for the weight transfer to the front and then begins carving into the turn), it seems only logical to slightly overinflate the front tires on a car that does not have equal F/R weight distribution.

    My "old" 2005 A6 handling has improved -- and the improvement is more than subtle.

    I struggled where to post this -- Audi A6 board? Or here?

    It seems that this forum has much activity and some of us do have the AWD versions -- perhaps ONLY the 530xi would not require such a tire inflation "trick." All the other AWD versions, however (Acura, Audi, Cadillac, Infiniti, etc.) would (or so it seems) benefit from this easy and effective approach.

    Gotta go now -- I have some roads to explore with my "new" car.

    :shades:
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    MarkCinc-

    What seems logical about overinflating the front tire? Are you trying to induce more understeer than what is already built into the car?
  • torquetaculartorquetacular Member Posts: 4
    In terms of price for features, the M45 sounds like a better deal than a 545. However, the new 550 has a more powerful engine with more low-end torque, and still weighs less than an M, equating to better acceleration. This could give the BMW a bit more justification for its $64K loaded price tag and maybe win back a few customers who wanted more value for the dollar.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    You can counter some of the sidewall rollover with a few extra pounds. Generally, some improvement in turn in can be had.

    Technically, I'm running two forward corners 6 lbs high and two rears at 5 lbs high. Technically. Decidedly quicker reflexes, though go too far and you'll take a hit on simple lateral Gs.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    We're talking at most a few tenths of a second. Is that really worth 10 grand? A few modifications to the Nissan 4.5 could probably even the score.. more likely for less than 10 grand.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    No, EXACTLY the opposite -- and it seems to have worked.

    According to the inflation range for the tires, I could add as much as 6 more pounds to the front and 8 to the rear.

    I have, instead, taken an approach that may yeild a little softer ride -- but not for that purpose alone.

    The car itself has recommended inflation numbers and I looked at all of the conditions on the mfg's sticker and determined a "high" normal pressure to be 31 pounds.

    Knowing the nose heavy characteristic, I discussed above, I figured the sidewalls could benefit from a bit more stiffness (I have 40 series tires which are already fairly low profile.) Using a cautious approach, I reasoned 2 pounds or maybe 3 extra would be "effective" (I said I reasoned, I certainly didn't use a formula) in improving the car's turn in and reduce the hint of squishiness I could feel on some of the twisties.

    Since, at this time on this car, I do not plan to upgrade the suspension (I did this on an A8 and my allroad with positive effect), I thought perhaps new shoes or blowing the old shoes up to be harder might work.

    Since I can feel an demonstrate the improvement, I would say -- "cheap way" to gain these improvements.

    All the rage around here now is to pay ONE TIME $25 for a full on nitrogen replacement in the tires (my Audi dealer does not do this.) I will pass on this at this time.

    If you have one of the nose heavy LPS (AWD) cars (most of them), try this approach -- perhaps a pound more in the front, perhaps 4 or somewhere in the middle will have good effect for you as it did for me.

    As you may remember the Shell Answer man says there are far more negative consequences from underinflation than the other way around.

    Besides I am not "out there" so far as to void my warranty, radically decrease my tire wear (no bald spots in the middle are likely that is) or make the car ride like a log wagon.

    Give it a try, report back -- there will be a quiz next time. :shades:
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    On the track (well, between the cones really) it's not at all uncommon to find the group as a whole running up a good 10 pounds or more, specifically to gain sidewall stiffness, according to an acquaintance.

    As a day-to-day, you can go pretty pound-far on a nose-heavy car before incurring real uneven wear on the fronts. The shoulders regularly take a beating first anyway; an effect somewhat mitigated by sending them to the rear occasionally, unless your set is staggered (as is mine) and non-rotatable, in which case you re-rubber on the twelvemonth anyway. The turn in, as you increase pressure, is indeed enhanced remarkably. Warning: some may not like the feel; might find it a bit twitchy at first, depending on how far you take it. Give it some time, and if it doesn't feel good, dial it back down...
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    So, using trial-and-error, it would seem that I might add another 2 pounds to the fronts (and perhaps a pound to the rears?) and "give it a go?"

    What little decline in comfort there may be is virtually unnoticable, at this point.

    The improved turn in is "fun" though. :shades:
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    We have noted the sales (and ranking) of the LPS cars here for some time. Some feel that sales leadership is an indication of the relative merit of the cars. Some feel that quantity of sales is darn near irrelevant in terms of suggesting the quality of the cars or the actual superiority of the cars.

    Some scratch their heads in amazement that the E class Mercedes with its recent abysmal reliability and poor customer satisfaction vies for either first or second place month after month.

    Yet there is another perspective that we might want to consider: the manufacturer's take on "how they're doing" (in such and such country or globally or whatever.)

    Listen, we all know that Audi and Acura seem to fight for last place -- often Audi wins that dubious honor. Taken just as a bunch of numbers ranked from top to bottom (for the US market) Audi must have the big capital "L" tattooed on its windshield.

    Yet, check this perspective out (from Audi):

    "At 6,659 units, the October sales volume in the USA was 9.4 percent up on the previous year (October 2004: 6,089). This compares with a 14 percent drop in the overall US market last month, the lowest figure since 1998. The Audi brand consequently sold 66,315 vehicles in the USA in the period January to October. This represents an increase of 4.6 percent on the previous year (Jan.-Oct. 2004: 63,388.)" -- source Audi AG

    Audi expects to sell some 820,000 total cars this year (worldwide.)

    The point? Audi appears to be pleased that it is having another "best year in a row." Being last place here in the US actually is a good thing from the perspective of "how we're doing compared to ourselves."

    "Worldwide sales for the first ten months have thus climbed to around 697,000 vehicles, an increase of 10 percent on the corresponding prior-year period." -- source Audi AG.

    Maybe being last doesn't mean "worst" anymore than first doesn't mean "best."

    Just a thought.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I have to wonder though, what is really the reason for Audi's generally lousy sales in the US? (Compared to other makes, not previous Audi results). They're obviously huge in Europe, so why hasnt it translated here? Why cant Audi sell anything but the A4 here? Do they care that they're often last place? Or are they content to be in last place, as long as its closer to the 2nd to last car than it used to be?
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Max. pressure on my tires is 51 pounds, and IIRC, range in pressure for thermal adjustment from friction and ambient is somewhere around 4-5 lbs. So approaching 46 lbs cold sounds possible without endangering lease, life or lorry. Someone else can push the envelope to see, says I, but 5-6 lbs over recommended is no sweat in the least. The handling is definitely worth it, IMO.

    I swear by trial and error, provided one sets parameters to avoid worst case scenarios that can't be afforded. ;)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,051
    Yeah... but, that number on the tire is the MAX psi, no matter what vehicle you put it on...

    So, it is safe for the tire (meaning it won't burst), but is it safe for your car's handling characteristics?

    My advice: Forget about that number on the side of the tire... It has nothing to do with the real-world driving characteristics of your particular vehicle.

    Plus if you are puttering around at 35 mph, in a wagon with a slushbox, in the left lane of the freeway... It won't really matter what psi you are running.. ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx
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  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Well, Kentuck, you'll notice I suggested someone else should prove/disprove the hypothesis; I assume most of us here have more brains than bucks rather than vicey-versy. ;)

    Funny thing about puttering: I must be doing it wrong; I go through an awful lot of rubber... :blush:
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I live in Oak Brook. It's interesting because though the 4 dealers are right in a row you see a lot more BMW's, Lexus' and Mercedes than Audi's. With regards to the E vs. 5-Series, the majority of 5-Series buyers buy the 530, not the 525. I think that sales would be about equal for the E and 5 for YTD sales if the wagon and M5 had been out for the whole time. Really, all that we can fairly compare is the E350/E320 to the 530 and the E500 to the 545/550 in terms of sales. Just so we're comparing apples to apples. I guess it doesn't really matter anyway as several people here have pointed out. I wan't really trying to say that the 5 is "better" than the E. Just that sales of the two are probably about the same YTD.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Has anybody actually seen 525s in any number out there? I'm in an E90-rich environment here in the Bay Area, and I think I've spotted only one.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Wale,

    I saw many new 525s so far! Dont see in great numbers the 545s, though they have been around for a while. Canadians are more hungry for thrift than power!

    In fact when I was in the UK I was amazed when I saw so many BMW 518s(to me a pointless car)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Canada a big country and I forgot to add my geographic location of BMW 525 sightings:

    Toronto
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Well yeah, but you're one o' them furriners. ;)

    Aren't displacements generally a bit smaller, your side of the border, Dewey? Seems to me Canada is a bit more progressive that way than the "I'm an American and I'll buy as big as I damn well can afford" US!.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The number of dealerships and their geographic concentrations (if any) to attempt to discern why Audi and Acura for instance seem to fare so far below BMW and Mercedes?

    Is such data available?

    More of a curiosity point than anything else -- for Audi seems set to globally outsell BMW and in Germany BMW and Audi often trade for who wins over the other in any particular month, unlike here where BMW outsells Audi by a factor of 3 (or more.)

    Perhaps this is explainable by a paucity of US Audi dealerships in comparison to BMW or a distribution of dealerships that does not offer quite the concentration in the top 50 US cities that one would imagine would be required to move over 4,000 (and 5,000) cars month after month. :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    It is strange to go to the UK and see cars like the E200 Kompressor.. which costs the equivalent of well over $40 grand, and provides an amazing 163 horses and a 0-62mph in just 10 seconds!
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,051
    .. I was just looking at the map... The UK is only about one inch wide... how fast do you need to go?.. you'll run off into the ocean.. ;)

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  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    "My wife refuses to send in to the Inland Revenue Service because we live on the coast..."

    Sorry. Benny Hill moment there...
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Benny HILL ??? Boy, is you old! ;)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh ok, I'm right on the Naperville/Aurora border off R59 so I know what you mean.

    Oakbrook huh? That is the Mercedes/BMW/Porsche/insert any other high-end Eurocar here, capital of the Western Suburbs of Chicago.

    There is no other suburban mall in the Chicagoland area in which you have to fight with Ferraris and Bentleys for a parking space, especially on the Eash side of the mall. Ridiculous amount of money in that parking section (and the whole mall on a Sat).

    M
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    I think the reason for Audi's relatively low sales compared to the other LPS's is threefold. 1) Fewer dealers 2) A lower ad budget and not very effective advertising and promotion in the US market 3) There is still a negative aura from the Audi 5000 surge recall, deserved or not.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Seems to me Canada is a bit more progressive that way than the "I'm an American and I'll buy as big as I damn well can afford

    In fact Canadians can be divided into two categories:

    1)Frugal Canadian---fuel efficieny matters

    2)"The Closet American" Canadian---I'll buy as big as I damn well can afford"

    There are two Hummers on my street and I know which category those owners belong to! ;)
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    I agree. AOA is terrible in its marketing (or lack thereof) strategy. Rarely does one see ads and when they are seen, its usually one of the "artistic" ones that aren't really as eye catching as the BMW ones IMO. Why can't they show the Pike's Peak one or the ski jump one?

    On the other hand, I do like being in a minority with my car, just wish more people liked it!
  • rich545rich545 Member Posts: 386
    I'll tell you what..I can't believe how much money people spend on cars here. I come from a suburb of NY which is really expensive to live in too, but you don't see cars like you do in Oak Brook anywhere that I've been other than Greenwich, CT. Maybe people in NY were just more house-poor (not that houses in Oak Brook are exactly cheap either!). I mean, I drive around slumming it in my 545 while everyone else seems to have SL500's, Bentley Continentals and Maserati's! It's wild. It's like the Beverly Hills of the Midwest. Anyway, of Ogden Ave dealerships, I have to say that Mercedes is by far the worst. They act like they're doing you a favor by letting you spend $80K to drive one of there cars. Laurel Audi and BMW are both very good though.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Chicago suburbs host beautiful cars all right...it was a great sunny day today and the wife and I drove down to the Ikea store in Shaumburg, had lunch at the Cheesecake factory in the Woodfield Mall. Couldn't believe all the ladies out driving the Jaguars, Mercedes, Porsches, BMWs, many Lexus including one SC430 convertible, candy apple red, top down, moving along briskly through the parking lot. A Pretty lady, shades, and Sharon Stone smile....whew! (The wife always smiles like that when she sees a red convertible! ;) :P
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Check out South Florida. Maybachs, Royces, Ferraris, 760s, etc. etc. etc.

    With no state income tax a high earner can buy a lot. And do.
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Member Posts: 125
    Interesting...

    Apparently for street tires, more PSI up front does firm up handling...which is the opposite of race tires. Apparently, the extra traction you get with less psi is nullified by the excessive sidewall flex inherent in street tires.

    I stand corrected, at least for DOT rubber.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I remember seeing a few of the "Lead > Follow" ads for the '05 A4. I cant remember seeing a single commercial for the A6 on TV though. And cars like the A8, TT, Allroad, etc, fuggetaboutit. It seems as if Audi marketing is stuck in a viscious cycle of lack of marketing = low sales = lack of marketing = low sales..
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well you're likely to encounter that type of attitude anywhere nowadays, I've had that happen too.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah that sounds about right. Schaumburg isn't to far from Barrington and Hoffman Estates, plenty of money there too.

    Still though it is one of my favorite areas. Everything is right there.

    M
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