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I keep on hearing the same question in many forums?
The fact of the matter is that most people buy a BMW because most models have the best drivetrains/chassis combo in the industry. Customers love the way they drive and based on JD Power and Consumer Reports figures most BMW models(except the 7 series) are not unreliable
So does that mean there are no BMW badger hunters? Ofcourse there are! There are as many BMW badge hunters as there are Lexus badge hunters, especially among the majority of Lexus owners who feel distinguished by buying a Lexus RX330/ES330 versus a Toyota Highlander/Camry!
www.chronocentric.com/watches/brands.shtml
and read the parts about "Aren't Rolex the best watches in the world?" and "If Rolex is not the only superior watch brand, why haven't I heard of these other watches?". Let's not underestimate the importance of the 1980's yuppies on the popularity of German sedans. I was a yuppie back then (hate to admit it though) and had to own that Porsche. Remember how they went from exclusive to common? How did that eventually work out?
I feel honored to be compared with Mark but he is definitely the "luxury" writer in this forum. I'm a want-to-be envious of Marks' writing abilities.
Couldn't actually find this info in my book of facts. It's your opinion (and I know it's not based on your bias) and may be correct for most BMW owners on this forum - however I'm not sure it applies to most 5-series buyers who never bless us with their company.
Lexus badge hunters, especially among the majority of Lexus owners who feel distinguished by buying a Lexus RX330/ES330 versus a Toyota Highlander/Camry!
Hmm...longer warranty, better customer service experience, slightly higher quality of materials.....
Couldn't actually find this info in my book of facts. It's your opinion (and I know it's not based on your bias) and may be correct for most BMW owners on this forum
Pick up any magazine/newspaper/online comparo and most will agree with the BMW drive... Obviously it's a subjective rating, but if virtually all professional comparo people say the same thing year after year, there must be something to it.
Anyhow I originally just wondered about the psychological motivation behind LPS purchases and what role the badge had in that process. Debating which LPS is the best car is not my intent. Prestige, ego-stroking and brand are important for the sales of all luxury goods (Rolex watches, Chanel Handbags etc.) so it does have an impact on LPS sales.
Couldn't actually find this info in my book of facts. It's your opinion (and I know it's not based on your bias) and may be correct for most BMW owners on this forum
Pick up any magazine/newspaper/online comparo and most will agree with the BMW drive...
Hey, I think you misunderstood DrT's point: Even if it is a widely held and therefore true "fact" that BMWs have the best drive train/chassis combo, whether that is the primary reason people buy BMWs (as opposed to its status, or its included maintenance plan, or whatever) is a separate issue and NOT itself a "fact" - unless you have some marketing survey of BMW buyers that you would like to share with us.
Hey, I think the above qualifies as the longest sentence I've ever written for a forum!
Subsequent edit: DrT posted simultaneously his own explanation consistent with what I wrote above. I should have known he didn't need my defense...
BAD NEWS FROM BMW
Everything in this interview curbed my enthusiasm about the future of BMW. Here are the three main points that I found least exciting:
1)Regarding the upcoming 1 series in North America:
Q:Is a three-box sedan more likely?
A:There are many alternatives. We have not given that away, but it's not going to be a hatch.
I would never ever consider buying a 1 series unless it was a hatchback! I would favor an Audi A3 hatch versus a unpractical sub-compact sedan 1 series.
2) In the interview Mr. Panke talks about two vehicles: a crossover version of the X5 series and a "functional concept vehicle"
IMO BMW will begin to spread itself far too thin with these minivan variations! It should remain a niche player and focus on its strengths: sport performance cars!
3) Also he talked about a hydrogen BMW 7 series! I just cant wait to read future posts in this forum about the CR reliability of a hydrogen 7 series vehicle
But, no matter what you are comparing, there will always be a Cadillac in the mix.
At the time, this didn't seem odd or out of place in any way -- the cars under eval were in theory at least competitors.
I fully expected the BMW to be the accelerating, braking and handling champeen.
In both of the day's comparos, the Cadillacs flat out beat the other competitors. Objectively, or at least quasi-objectively, the CTS and STS models "kicked butt."
Of course, by asking appropriate questions AND then after all the Sturm und Drang being ushered into a tent that was obviously a portable Cadillac showroom, it hit me: this "editor for a day" event was rigged.
The BMW was a 2005 225 HP car with standard everything and this means small wheels and tires -- especially since the STS was "sport everything," including big and wide 18" low profile balonies on shiny optional chrome wheels.
The interior of the BMW's were all black, the Cadillacs had a creamy ecru interior that somehow made the car seem less confining and open.
I'd even bet, but I can't prove it, that the BMW had the minimum allowable air pressure in its High Performance All Season tires and that the Cadillac had the maximum allowable air pressure in its Ultra High Performance Summer Only tires.
The Caddy with its sport suspension and w-i-d-e tires was composed and calm, and by comparison, the STS's 255HP made the Bimmer seem downright anemic.
Three people plus a "pro" driver were given the opportunity to drive the six cars each twice around "the track" (cones set up in a huge asphalt parking lot.)
Most of us were "car nuts" (men and women alike) -- and most of us were biased in favor of the BMW. Until the very end, I think most of us couldn't figure out why the BMW seemed to wallow, understeer and have difficulty with probably over 700 pounds of passenger mass.
Had they NOT ushered us into the Cadillac tent after the festivities, I am convinced I would be here telling you I might have given the Cadillac a short shrift while I was shopping (I had had my new A6 about one month at the time of this event, so there was no turning back.)
Instead, I am here to tell you that these cars are obviously more alike than different and that they are indeed quite sensitive to suspension settings, tires and wheels. More sensitive than I would have imagined.
Indeed, to underscore that point, I must remind you that I have now been living for ONE FULL WEEK with my new higher air pressure and with more air pressure in my front tires than in my rears -- and loving the significant improvement in "turn-in" and at least the reduction of the sensation of plowing (that Audis, and some other nose heavy LPS cars are "famous" for.)
What cannot be rigged, of course, is predilection -- that is your predilection for an Acura, Audi, BMW, Cadillac or whatever.
Many of us have been saying for some time now that our passion for these LPS cars has little basis in logic or the scientific method. We are, as noted earlier, quite badge influenced (some of us, more than others.)
I had to smile when reading the pronouncement that "The fact of the matter is that most people buy a BMW because most models have the best drivetrains/chassis combo in the industry."
If we would change the word "fact" to "opinion" and "most" to "many" I could support this statement.
As it stands though, the fact is that Cadillac has the best drivetrain/chassis combo -- and it is verifiable by your amateur peers and the pros alike.
Of course, as noted, the results, from one point of view, were rigged.
And, make mine Finlandia -- because it really, really is the best, no really.
Badges, we don't need no stinkin' badges!
Oh yes we do. :shades:
Hmmm, interesting! I cant challenge your view since the last Cadillac I drove was a 74 Cadillac Eldorado 25 years ago! The first car I ever drove!
The BMW although technically a 2005 was the OLD lower horsepressure engine with a 5 speed steptronic.
The "comparable" in my opinion, BMW would have been the then current vintage which would have had a 6 speed steptronic and a 255HP 6.
Yes, seriously, no sarcasm, the Cadillacs were able to be tossed about with greater aplomb than the BMW. The Cadillac was crisper, tighter and overall just better. It is a shame (if we really wanted to be objective) that cars cannot be tested back to back EXACTLY this way. Then, the performance aspects -- the objective aspects -- could be ascertained both via stop watches and the seat of your pants (literally.)
I seriously doubt, however, that being afforded the ability to test drive thusly would do much to wear down the predisposition to "wanting" a certain fill in the blank LPS car.
My buddy won't have anything but BMW's -- he knows it, I know it, he knows I know it, his wife knows it, we all know it. Yet he tests Mercedes-Benz "comparable" offerings and the whole time is calling them "porky" and "an old man's car" and probably some other funny at the time epithets. Now, the fact that the Mercedes did seem less athletic and perhaps "porky" to me too is besides the point. The Mercedes was an S class and my friend ended up [testing and buying] with a BMW 7 with some "sport package" option that gave it huge wheels and tires, sport suspension and a lower final drive ratio.
The test in this case was rigged -- but heck, he rigged it himself, he tested the porky Mercedes against the much more athletic (as configured) BMW. Assuming there is a sport package offered (optionally) on the Mercedes, I often wonder how things would have gone had he tested a sporty Merc against a porkier Bimmer (bygones and it probably makes no never mind, since he was biased in favor of the BMW and against the Mercedes.)
I'll bet the non sported up 7 would have been no less porky (he said in hindsight.)
My friend points to "the little blue and white propeller" and says that makes "all the difference."
Hogwash.
At that price level either one of these cars would be great -- and since both of them at that test drive were RWD cars, I wouldn't have either of them here in "we have winter don't you know" Cincinnati. Puzzling, too, in the winter my friend drives a Jeep Liberty 'cause the Bimmer is useless on slick surfaces. Rather, he calls me and says "bring your 'innie' today" thinking it clever calling my Audi an Innie (yea, I groan when he says that, but it is funny the way he says it.)
The point is -- my friend is probably more like most of us LPS posters here on edmunds than he is different. He is 99.999% certain the BMW is the best. And, even moreso than I think even I am, he is unwilling to change brands.
He would have been mortified had I actually taken delivery of that Infiniti M35X even though he thinks I have "settled" for a car with four rings instead of a blue propeller.
I was (past tense) getting fed up with the value proposition as I then saw it with respect to the LPS from Ingolstadt. There was no 530xi for sure for sure at that moment in time and the M35X is so darn close to having most of the driving dynamics of the BMW and the cool technology of the Audi [and it was $200 bucks less than the Audi on a lease] it truly was a no brainer.
But, the Infiniti was NOT my first choice for a car, it was my "optimum" (read compromise) between the car that I wanted and the price that I had determined I was willing to pay.
The badge (in my case, Audi) mattered -- but not $200 per month for what seemed to me to be a comparable vehicle.
My wife, too, wanted a new Audi A4 3.2 ($44K MSRP) but when a new BMW X3 ($47K MSRP) was $103 per month less AND could be had with a stick shift, the blue propeller won over her certainty (at that moment) that the Audi was the better car.
Now, the badge and the actual experience of owning the BMW have changed her tune -- indeed, she pokes much fun at me for getting the A6, as she now knows the 530xi is out and can be had with a stick shift.
Probably we all have a singular predilection when it comes to our LPS cars.
Audi was either very smart or felt forced to figure out a way to get me into a nearly $54K A6 for less than we had been quoted for a $44K A4 about 2 months prior.
We'll see what happens next time -- I just mailed payment #6 of 36 today, I figure I'm back in the hunt a scant 24 months from now.
Wish I could "justify" an S8.
But, I might "settle" for a BMW 530xi, especially if they still offer manual transmissions on the 2008 models.
:shades:
In this case the Emotorcon would beep negative in terms of sarcasm! During 1980 I did learn driving in a Cadillac Eldorado, no kidding!
I will revise one of my prior statements as suggested by you to the following :
It is the opinion of many most BMW models provide the best drivetrains/chassis combo in the industry.
There that sounds less rhetorical than my prior statement!
Also I am not 99.9% blindly devoted to BMW like your friend! I would pick the BMW3 or BMW5 over all the competition not because of the BMW brand but because of the models themselves! If Honda sold a car like a 3 series I would say the hell with luxury badges and buy a Honda instead!
This was before I knew this was a Cadillac "sponsored" event.
Now, the "guys" from both C&D and R&T were there (but not any of the big names, of course) so while I tend to think the rigging was real, I also think it was done within the parameters that could be ordered off of the option list.
The Cadillac had had all the sport option boxes checked off, not so the BMW.
All the cars had about 2,000 miles on them, so while I guess there could be reasons to doubt the veracity of this "editor for a day" event -- I think it would be a slippery slope for C&D and R&T to put their names on such an event and have it be subsequently revealed that the cars tested were special "one off" versions rather than "available to all willing to custom order their cars."
Knowing what I know now just about the air pressure in my tires, I can think of plenty of ways to enhance the Cadillac and hobble the BMW with impunity.
"The engine and transmission have plenty of expansion room. The V-6 could easily be scaled up to deliver 300 horsepower and is designed to support turbocharging and direct injection, said Samardzich."
You guys think that this engine is going into the successor to the Lincoln LS?
Would you buy a Z4 or an S2000? Why?
I will admit that I am biased towards BMWs. From my first Alpina 1600 in 1967 through 1990 I always owned BMWs. That said, I really did not like the base, non-sport 530i. It floated. It wallowed in turns. The steering was scary at high speeds. The Subie whipped it. I am certain the sport-equipped Cadi did too. The fairer comparison would have been a 530i Sport.
Out of all the cars on this forum, the one I like best is the M35/M35x. I would probably rationalize the fact that they are thirsty. But, they are just flat too noisy – clearly noisier than my reference car which costs 2/3 as much. I wish they had more sound proofing and a taller 6th speed top gear.
But if you are driving the cars covered on this forum, you should also try a 330i. The Sport model, in particular is a real, classic BMW, without all of the electronic game nonsense (iDrive, Active Steering etc.) of the more expensive cars. It is quick, comfortable and really sweet to drive. My only problem: it is a size smaller than I was looking for, and I have not been able to get past the value proposition: a properly equipped 330i Sport or 330xi costs $41 to $42K. That is awfully close to a comparably-equipped base M35.
But hypothetically if I was single or an empty nester I would pick the Honda S2000. Why? Because I love the idea of listening to its motorcycle pitch while reving between 6k to 9k rpm! I've heard the S2000 loves to rev. Also the S2000 is cheaper than the Z4!
Apparently DEW98 will continue, but only in the next Jag S-type, which will not get a shortened version of the aluminum XJ platform as previously planned.
When I became old enough to legally drive the thing, my dad helped me get the old relic running and other than the fact that it had both standard brakes and steering (the amount of pressure required to stop the car required literally "standing on the pedal,") it was clearly a car that had to have been as the saying goes, ahead of its time.
This big car with this HUGE i6 and twin carbs was clearly the LPS of the early and mid 1950's.
I don't miss it at all -- but I do have fond memories.
God, I'm old.
On the other hand, why isn't the Pacer on the list up top of LPS? If we're comparing Avalon's, why can't I compare my Pacer?!
First car was a 53 Chev. Loved the car. Good memories from a gone bye era.
Hope all is well with all. Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
Perhaps, in my next life, Audi will regain the respect it deserves as a true world class automobile, and retain its' resale value better. I hope the old lady who got all that money for the lawsuit on 'unintended acceleration' chokes on her wine cork!!
My mother thought that the Pacer was so cute that every woman in the U.S. would want one. So, instead of the car, she bought AMC stock. Neither, as it turns out, was to be a brilliant investment.
Fun posts here, I'm a lurker/reader. But only an "Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedan" driver. But maybe some day, if the wife stops shopping...
Mark, "God, I'm old." Better than the alternative!
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
The E60 is a magnificent machine.
Anyone with M's care to give a full report on 5,000, 10,000 or more miles? Ditto some of the other LPS's?
Inquiring minds. . . .
BTW/FWIW:
My A6 turned 9,000 miles recently and other than the pushbutton starter button issues (the fourth one seems to be holding its own) and the fact that the DSP surround sound settings revert to "normal" from time to time, the car in every other way has been flawless and "most excellent." :shades:
I had one of the first cars off the ship, and there have been two bugs. One is a rattle that was coming from the headliner. This was fixed on the second try (but they now need to re-seat one of the two backseat cushions as they did not re-install it completely--the back cusion juts out about 1-2 cm). The other problem is with the driver's seat. At about 6k miles, I began to notice it slip forward about 1/4-1/2 inch with heavy braking. They have a new bracket on order for this (at which time they are planning on fixing the rear-seat as well).
Some M owners complain about noise. I know this is louder than the GS and RL, but noise (other than the now-fixed rattle) has not been a complaint of mine.
I find I appreciate the styling more and more. The bourbon interior with the black exterior always gets positive comments (the people at the dealership always say they love the combo, but rarely see it).
DETROIT -- Volkswagen AG will pull its pricey Phaeton sedan from the U.S. market in February following the car's mediocre reception from American buyers and the company's attempt to focus more intently on offering affordable products.
How many did they sell in North America?
Of course without a dealer network at the proper level, well. . .
And, no need to put the Phaeton in Audi dealers, they already have one. . .
I still think the concept was sound, the execution sucked, tho. . . :confuse:
BMW Z4 M
The BMW Z4 M will not have SMG but will be sold only with a 6 speed manual!
IMO that is the way it should be!
How so? You mentioned that VW doesnt have the type of dealer service expected at this price level, they dont even have the prestige level of an Acura, let alone M-B or BMW, the car competed with Audi... how is this still a good idea?
"VOLKSWAGEN'S W12 SHAME
There were red-faces in Wolfsburg last night following an embarrassing revelation about the origins of Volkswagen's innovative W12 engine. Although engineering experts initially believe that the W-pattern cylinder layout was a clever way of making a large capacity engine more compact it has now emerged that the unique format is simply the result of German people and their inability to say the letters 'v' and 'w'. 'I'm afraid this is true,' admitted one anonymous engineer. 'In Germany the letter 'w' is pronounced as a 'v' and this is where the confusion arose. We were ordered to create a new V12 engine for our flagship models but unfortunately someone wrote the 'v' down as a 'w', thus creating a needlessly complex engineering development programme.'"
The concept was let Audi go head to head with BMW and VW not try to be the sporty lux division, but the "classic" lux division.
Most of the write ups about the car (the Phaeton V8) were positive about the effort (but with a lot of content borrowed from the A8L, that is not too hard to imagine.)
It was not to be for many reasons, most of them I can identify and actually agree with.
I thought the concept "could" work -- the execution made it darn near impossible to succeed without an infusion of money that thankfully VW couldn't and didn't even try to muster.
I continue to be impressed with Audi's moves into the Premium class (but, they are RECENT entrants and they do not have the "been there all along" reputation [at least in the US] that the other Germans enjoy.)
The Passat, hopefully, will benefit from the Phaeton's influence -- time will tell.
So much can (and will) change over the next 24 months which is again when I will be back in the hunt.
BMW's 530xi, Cadillac's STS AWD and the Infiniti M35x (in addition to the A6, of course) would merit my attention.
Price too will be an important factor.
If a new 530xi with a 6spd manual remains, it certainly could ascend to the top if it is not outrageously priced.
Who knows, the whole landscape could change by then.
I wouldn't really ever have been in the market for the L wheelbase Phaeton.
If money was unlimted, or at least only slightly so, the Audi S8 looks like it would be the one to beat.
That car looks like it puts a capital P in lPs cars.
Right, the only problem is VW is not, nor have they ever been, a luxury division, let alone a "classic" one. It would be like Subaru making an $80K super lux sedan. Could they do it? Sure. That doesnt make it a good idea. No one would buy one for the same reasons. Also, couldnt the luxury\sport thing be handled by something as simple as an optional sport package for the A8?