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Comments
Yankin' your chain again...
(I at least expected a, "But those German engineering Jedi-Masters of the Blue and White Propellor order are able to get these outstanding numbers in an awe-inspiring V8!")
Actually, the Earth moved twice today. In the Luxury Marques forum, Merc1 had something slightly-better-than-neutral to say about the upcoming 2007 LS styling!
The new LS must be quite a looker for Merc1 to say something positive.
I can hardly wait to see one.
I sort of like the look of the new GS-almost got one.
Saw 3 recently after not seeing any for about 6 months.
By the way folks, next time at the PO, ask for the "1950's sporty cars" stamps.
Quite a nice trip down memory lane for some of us.
The 1952 Nash Healey with the top down. Sigh....
i don't intend to start up a debate or anything about this, because that's pretty good numbers for the size and output in the 545 ... but not really "incredible genius," as my '03 Lincoln LS V8 consistently returns ~22 mpg in mixed, and often spirited, driving. I just can't call the guys at Ford "geniuses."
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Car & Driver (May 2005)
1. M45 Sport
2. RL
3. GS 430
4. E350
5. A6 4.2
6. 530i
7. STS V-8
8. S-Type 4.2
Motor Trend (March 2005)
1. M35
2. RL
3. 530i Sport
4. A6 3.2
5. STS V-6
6. S-Type 3.0
Motor Trend (November 2005)
1. 545i
2. M45 Sport
3. E500
4. STS V-8
Road & Track (July 2005)
1. M45 Sport
2. 545i
3. GS 430
Just trying to stir up the pot.
1. M35x
2. A6 3.2
3. STS V-6
4. RL
5. GS 300 AWD
Placed the E320 and 530i between the M35 and A6
Edmunds
1. RL
2. A6 3.2
3. M35x
4. 530xi
5. GS 300 AWD
Speed Magazine
1. 300C SRT-8
2. CTS
3. 545i 6MT
4. GS 430
5. A6 4.2
6. M45 Sport
Automobile Magazine
1. A6 4.2
2. GS 430
3. E500
Also included 545i, M45, RL, STS and S-Type (not sure about their order)
The CR data is anecdotal as well, but it was probably done on similar courses and with similar driving styles. In any case, I really doubt that the real world mpg difference between a 550i (19 mpg) and an M45 is more than 1 mpg (18 mpg).
At 15,000 miles per year and $3.00 per gallon, that's a difference of $130 per year.
I really don't think anyone shopping in this class is going to quibble about that, especially when the difference between a comparably equipped M45 and 550i is $9000 to $10,000.
Even though the 550i makes more power, it has a mpg advantage because it weighs less and has an extra gear.
The M45 could use some weight loss and a 6 speed auto.
Also, the new iDrive in the 2006 5's is much easier to use and you get used to it very quickly (like most new technologies).
Thanks to all the fantastic comments. The overwhelming consensus as I can tell seems to be for the M45 - and for me I am assuming that translates to the M35 as well.
I will drive both back to back on the same day and make my decision. FYI - I am now leaning towards the M35. I like the M45 but gas mileage is such an issue right now, especially since my wife drives an X5 which costs 78 dollars to fill every time we hit the gas station.
Thanks again!
jo2
Why?
1)C&D----- a M45 against a 530i. Is that a fair comparison when a 545i would have been appropriate?
2)Did not the MT comparison include the 530i with the dated 225HP 3.0l engine? Such a comparison is quite useless since a updated 3.0l was introduced within a month of that test! Why use the outdated engine?
2) These comparos are always done months before issue, meaning that the 255hp version would not have been available to the magazine for a while. "Waiting" for something new from a specific manufacturer could be a never-ending game, since different cars are constantly getting updates at different times.
For the record, I was a first-time LPS buyer a few months ago when I was comparing the M35x to the 530xi. I was not prejudiced against one or the other, if anything I have always been biased towards favoring Japanese brands for value and reliability.
FOR ME (emphasis to avoid implying that everyone should agree with me), the BMW 530xi won hands down over the M35x for the following reasons:
1. Manual transmission available on the 530xi.
2. External looks that make my heart race every time I walk up to the car. The M looks too round and bulky from the side, too tall and narrow from the back, and I can't stand the gaping fish-mouth in the front. All my friends who see the car salivate over it. All personal opinions, of course.
3. Fuel efficiency that kicks butt over the M35x. After three months and 4000 miles on the 530xi, I consistently get just over 30 mpg in sixth gear on the highway. I just did a one-day 425 mile round-trip to NY from Boston and was able to do it all on one tank of gas, averaging approx. 28 MPG (computer and manually calculated). I know that people who buy LPSes don't always care about fuel efficiency, but I do and it was an important factor for me.
4. Handling and driveability that I guess BMW is well-known for.
5. Simple spartan interior. I did not love the BMW interior as much as I hated the look of the cluttered, over-bearing, claustrophobic M35x interior -- what's the deal with the console canted towards the ceiling anyway? Just like my buddy's Nissan Quest -- and he hates that too!
They downgraded the 545 on subjective elements like exterior and interior styling.
And that's how the M45 won.
Very scientific.
At least Motor Trend got it right.
I never for one second considered any industry or magazine reviews when choosing the 530xi over the M35x. What some independent reviewer thinks, and whether the car does 0-60 in 5 or 7 seconds is totally irrelevant to me.
I agree with an earlier post that said that the greatest value of a review is that it makes people who chose the winning car feel that they made the right choice. Who doesn't like external validation for a choice they made?
How anyone can believe a ranking that relies on total strangers to evaluate looks and styling is alien to me!
I am willing to bet $1000 that if you put an M35x and a 530xi side-by-side and had a random set of 1000 people evaluate looks and styling, the 530xi would win hands down! Just my personal, non-scientific opinion of course!
The M is a nice car but to say it drives like the 5 series?
I've driven both and the only thing the M beats the E60 in is the brakes, IMNSHO.
(And if you put the money saved in their pockets, you could flip a few on the exterior styling, too)
Interesting that you put this first. An earlier post of yours said the lack of a manny was a deal breaker. At least you based your decision on a fact plus the MPG. The other 3 points, well it looks like hpowders has a soul mate.
Happy motoring
We shall not stand alone against this rising insurgency!
Lonely are the brave!
Fact: A lot more folks are buying/leasing the E60 than the M.
There's a great new DVD out on all the BMW models from design to manufacturing to testing at the track to future designs with quite a few comments by the great Chris Bangle.
I suggest you stop in to your nearest BMW dealer and pick one up, assuming you are wearing proper attire.
What were those October figures?
Uhh...
5 series: 4880
M: 2231
Oh well. Only 119% better for the 5 series.
:P
Nothing like a little dose of reality to get the BMW apologists stirring, huh? Anyone dares to suggest another car may be the equal or better and the screams can be heard for miles. Here they come with their sales figures and new engines to compete with Infiniti.
And I don't know how old the Infiniti styling haters are, but my generation brought the Japanese car into the mainstream....we appreciate the styling cues of Asia as well as Europe.
BMW - Early, quiet release of 4.8L engine.
Infiniti and any other car maker would be thrilled with those sales in this segment for a brand new car with zero nameplate recognition. Heck, Porsche's Cayenne just recently started to build some sales momentum and it has been out how long?
Can you explain that?
Can ya?
Can ya?
Infiniti is a very well-established brand.
It's all about the sales numbers. The fact that the 5 outsold the M by 119% is incontrovertible proof that it is 119% better.
Just like it's irrefutable that the FX is better than the X5 because it outsells it and the G35 Coupe is better than the 3 series 2 door because it outsells it.
But with 3 sedan vs. the G sedan, the 3 sedan is about a 250% better car.
Worse yet, some people drive the car they do because they want to be still driving it in 5 (or 8) years. Imagine!!
And, to top it off, some people want to pick up the car when it's paid for and never see the dealership again.
Go figure.
Based on sales figures alone, Budweiser must be the best beer there is, guess I'll stop drinking imports and micros This naive sales analysis is getting tiresome.
Of the 2231 M sales, probably at least 25% (558) are the M45.
Does that mean that the M45 is a better car than the 545i/550i? Now I'm just getting confused!!!
Of the 2231 M sales, probably at least 25% (558) are the M45.
Does that mean that the M45 is a better car than the 545i/550i? Now I'm just getting confused!!!
According to a reliable source (if I told you I'd have to kill you) the M45 sales ratio is about 1/3. The answer to your question is yes. Actually I think they are fairly even but the new found logic gathered from this forum has led me to the fact that the M45 is 1.7 times the car the 545/550 is.
The trumpets have been sounding for the G35 and now the M.
If both the G and the M have been winning all these comparos, then why have they both been repeatedly trounced by BMW?
People are voting with their wallets for BMW.
Facts are facts.
It is, however, a much better value.
That is indisputable.
It better be. You're gonna need that extra cash to pay for the dismal gas mileage.
That too is indisputable.
Why? Because it doesn't support your desired outcome?
It's hard to argue with the facts.
People are flocking to the BMW 3 and 5 series, not the G35 or M35/45.
Look. I feel your pain, but.....
I am capable of sympathy to my less fortunate fellow humans.
It's been said around here so much that it's gotten kind of trite, but it's true: does the fact that McDonalds sells the most hamburgers mean they sell the best hamburgers?
I certainly hope not!!
The best thing I have read here (it was here, right? - there's been such a flurry of posts today) lately was the post that said that the posts which have the real value are the ones that actually objectively critique the vehicle the poster actually drives. The posts that do nothing but argue the poster's vehicle's superiority come hell or high water really don't add a lot that's very helpful to those trying to make a decision.
And, really, the reason we have these conversations is to provide HELPFUL information to those who are shopping.
So could we get back to just talking about the cars and get away from this chest-beating? Up until today, this discussion stood out in my mind as not descending into that dismal swamp. Let's get back out of the mud, okay? That would be great!
I certainly hope not!! "
This is a pretty interesting analogy.
Why McDonalds sells the most burgers?
They have more branches than any other competitors.
But I don't think Infiniti has more local dealers than BMW does by that much.
...
M
The VQ also needs to be updated with direct injection and perhaps punching it out to 3.7L wouldn't hurt. I would bet a McDonald's hamburger (the world's best according to some BMW fanatics) the '07 VQ will at least be the equal and probably ahead of the new Toyo 3.5L in terms of horsepower and technology. They may also bump the VK45 with direct injection....and in my dreams add the VK45's sophistication to the VK56 Remember, Infiniti being the newbie in this class of cars has to remain better than the comptetion to win conquest sales.
I don't know if this bogus or not, but if true, this engine will definitely find its way into the M, maybe for the 2008 model year.
Hope they mate it to a 6 speed auto.
Looks like this forum has turned into a BMW vs. Infiniti battle. Would love to read some input from M-B owners (they do have the highest sales figures), Acura and Lexus. Mark covers the Audi angle extremely well but I'm sure he would love to have company there also.
Noisy upon acceleration
Artificial-feeling steering
A bit heavy in cornering
Excellent brakes
Excellent value
Verdict: Watch out for the next generation M45!
BMW 545:
Reasonably quiet upon acceleration
Excellent steering
Great balance during cornering
Good brakes
Highway robbery price
Verdict: BMW still ahead by just a bit, but could lose serious ground to the next generation M45, IMHO.
Those were the good ole days for BMW!
The way car companies market themselves will have an influence on the type of owners that buy their cars. And BMW marketing has done one helluva of a job in transforming their company from a performance niche car/ motorcyclye manufacturer into a luxury automaker that mainly sells to status seekers(the enthusiasts are a minority)!
In my case my two top priorities in a car is its drivetrain and chassis while luxury is my priority number 22.
So why do I spend time here in a forum focused on luxury-performance sedans? The answer is quite obvious! The most interesting performance cars are built by luxury manufacturers.
As I mentioned in a prior, I wish Honda or some other non-luxury marque could produce a sport sedan/wagon that can compete with a 3 or 5 series! That will never happen and that is why I will continue visiting luxury car forum like this one.
One of my clients, a new one, and I were talking today and he mentioned it took 8 months for his new Chrysler 300C AWD to come in. Outta the blue he said he tried and tried to buy a new Cadillac STS with all standard equipment and AWD (and I think he said a sun roof, which must mean it is not standard) -- they told him "thanks for playing, if you want such a car it is $64,000 'cause it actually does have a built in kitchen sink." He told me he got the Chrysler the way he wanted it and saved $24,000. MMMM, let's see a fully loaded 300C AWD is about $40,000 or so -- from one point of view he may actually have gotten more car for $40K than he would have for $64K.
But, that really is not the point -- his point was he wanted the STS because he perceived it as an LPS car and the 300C was a "near-LPS" car. Cadillac, he says, wouldn't take his money.
Noted this year, the V6 STS can be had with AWD and doesn't cost $64K.
Bundle, bundle, bundle -- done properly this is a great way to build and buy a car, but some of these LPS cars require irrational options.
Take the M35X for instance -- when I went about the process of ordering one, the ONLY way to get heated rear seats was as part of a $10,000 package. Now, really, how much do heated rear seats cost and what would be a profitable selling price ($200 and $400?)
Oh, once again, I digress.
I have become much more tolerant of these cars as nearly equals in many ways. Even more than ever, the differences in these cars are subtle -- the huge differences, I have become convinced are emotional and preferential based.
I prefer, so far, Audis.
There certainly may be evidence that they depreciate faster -- the residual at least would appear to be factual (even if some of its origin is subjective -- at least in North America.)
But my car was $54K MSRP, I put no money down and at 36 months and 15K per year, including tax, the payment is $669.40. It is the color in and out that I ordered and has the options (almost all of them) that I wanted. I sometimes second guess going with the wheel and tire upgrade ($1000) instead of the sport package ($1250 which included the wheel and tire upgrade.) But that is MY problem, that is the way I configured the car.
At over 9,000 miles the car (save for multiple pushbutton starter switches [4 in total] and a forgetful surround sound mode) has been 99 and 44/100's perfect.
My gut tells me I would probably be very happy with the M35X with the possible exception of the gas mileage -- and my only quasi-regret is my own damn bad-timing. For the same money, I am almost certain that OF THE THREE, I would've gone with the 530xi manual -- because of the manual -- and taken the downgraded interior (subjectively speaking) compared to the Audi.
I do so love folks talking about their cars, and their experiences -- I'd like to convince you to see my view if not bend to my will. But, at this point in the evolution of the species the BMW or Mercedes or Lexus, or whatever is no longer superior. The current 530xi may be the greatest BMW 5 ever, in fact it probably is. But, other than personal taste, there is very little, if any, objective data that can be found or ginned up that places it in any substantive way ahead of the M35x -- other than due to its availability with a manual transmission.
Sure, one person may dislike the tail lights of the M35x the next may think the BMW is so Pontiac derived (in its looks) that it is hideous.
This may move the wheels of commerce, but this is not objective.
What piques or is that peaks? my interest is in reading about your driving experiences with your LPS car.
It is just so plain as day obvious that the only superior car in the lot is the A6 , so why even go to comparisons, let's do what our host "suggests" and talk about the driving and ownership experiences of our babies.
Or, we could have a food fight. :shades:
"Guess what I am now? A zit..."
Don't you get anything else from BMW for the $10K? Seems you would...
Blame the 1980's yuppies....hey wait I was one of them. Remember designer jeans, the got to have Rolexes, designer German cars....heck even hamburgers were part of the craze - remember "gourmet" burgers - seemed like there was a competition to see who could charge the most for your basic burger. You had to have sheepskins and of course the key fob highlighting which car you drove. When chatting with the opposite sex you had to "casually" show them your key fob so they knew who they were dealing with!
I took the Porsche route back then. But a funny thing happened. Originally Porsche meant 911, then they added the 928, but the yuppies wanted Porsches so they brought in the VW 924 which turned into the 944 and it's many variants. It was nice to be exclusive but hey if yuppies wanted a Porsche well by golly Porsche was going to provide them with as many opportunities as possible to join the club. Porsche finally woke up and went back to their roots.
I had a love-hate relationship with my Porsche. Loved driving it but then I would hear a weird sound and I just knew it was a $1,000+ repair bill - that's the hate part. They fixed it and I was in love again until the next sound.