Luxury Performance Sedans

jrock65 · January 2005

Interesting, when I was looking (DC area), the dealer made it sound like most G's were coming with the standard spare. Maybe things are different now.

Recently, I sat in the G and the 5 back to back at the DC auto show (the BMW and Infiniti sections were very close by) and found the room to be similar, as the numbers indicate. The 5 did seem to have more shoulder room though. Wouldn't know anything about baby seats fitting, however.

Apparently you did your research and chose the car that fits your needs better, and that's all it comes down to really.

As an aside, the RL felt pretty cramped, smaller than the TL inside. This surprised me. Even my wife, who was DYING to get out of the show, made her only comment of the day, and that was, "why is it so tight inside?".

The M was on a pedestal so they didn't let us sit in it, but the doors were open, and an "eyeball" look seemed to confirm that the M was more spacious than any other car in this class except the STS.

In terms of styling, I like the front and front/side of the M the best by far. The side profile, I preferred the new GS. And from the rear, I liked the (GASP!) 5 the best.

The RL and the E had well-proportioned, inoffensive styling, but didn't really evoke an emotional response.

lexusguy · January 2005

The E has kind of the "standard rear" that Mercedes is using on basically every car they make these days. Remember when different Mercedes models used to actually LOOK different? Now, unless your a seriously diehard Benz fan, you have to get pretty close to tell a CLK\CL\SL apart from the front. I actually like the styling of the new SLK350 because it actually doesnt look like just another Mercedes. Also, I think the CLS is hideous. Im not sure why all the mags say its the best looking car ever. It looks to me like they took a '95 Infiniti J30 and supersized it.

I think the GS and M are the most attractive new cars in the segment. The A6 is very pleasant, but the big snout hasnt warmed on me. The STS is just plain ugly, and the 5 series is pug ugly.

gold233790 · January 2005

I was very surprised at the interior space in the RL. Not sure if it felt smaller than the TL- but it was close. Outside of the SH-AWD, I don't know if I would pay the 15k-ish difference. The RL is a little more refined, I suppose, but the TL is IMO the best value mid size sedan out there.

designman · January 2005

I had the same impressions with lack of room in the RL. They evidently shortened the wheelbase to sport-up the handling. I think they over did it. This car should be a luxury sedan first.

lexusguy · January 2005

It is typical Honda. They played it conservative, as they always do, kept the car smaller than the competition, and it will ultimately hurt them just like it did last time. I predict 3 or 4 years from now the car well sell in the low $40s.

designman · January 2005

I'm thinking the short RL wheelbase could have something to to do with SH-AWD. Perhaps it can't be as effective with a longer wheelbase/bigger aspect ratio.

jrock65 · January 2005

Some excerpts from the C&D article on the M45:

"Infiniti claims the rear-seat room to be on a par with that of the Lexus LS430 (at 46 cubic feet, the M45 has two fewer than the Lexus), and sure enough, we found space back there tolerable even for a six-foot-five passenger."

"In the M45 Sport we flung about on the roads of the Angeles National Forest, this behavior became highly addictive."

"The sweeping, wave-shaped dashboard has a shallow contour angle that makes the surfaces recede from the occupants, thus increasing the perception of space. All in all, it is a pleasant environment."

"we think the M45 feels remarkably organic at the controls when being hurried along. It turns in willingly and hangs on tenaciously. The steering is naturally weighted and wonderfully precise."

"a five-channel DVD Bose Studio Surround stereo with 14 speakers (two in each front seat) that has to be heard to be believed"

http://caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=9- - 024&page_number=1

lovemyclk · January 2005

It appears that your automotive perspective may need a tune-up...

"And why is the M getting a new skin after only 2 years ??? Contrast this scenario with the GS which has remained unchanged in like 6 years running. See my point?"

You may recall that the original Lexus ES250 was a stop-gap based on the existing Camry. A totally unremarkable vehicle for such an upscale division. Lexus understood it was only a stop-gap until the next-gen Camry platform was ready for prime time shortly after the original launch.

Even the original GS300 was considered a cush-mobile by all accounts as Lexus navigated toward some semblance of an automotive identity. Any sporting capabilities now exhibited by Lexus are truly recent phenomena! At least the G and new M are recognized players on the sporting side of the fence... and have been since their release.

The Infinity M scenario is similar. The short-lived 1st-edition M was as much a stop-gap as the "entry-level" ES years ago and bears no relevance to the upcoming M variants. I'm the 1st to suggest that the outgoing M looked like a generic "car" designed for a TV commercial that was not selling cars. About as successful as that 1st Lexus ES! They were simply getting in the game within that market segment.

I hate to burst your bubble, but all of these vehicles have their redeeming qualities and offer variation on a theme to the buyer. Your "Lexus rules" mentality grows old and offers nothing of interest regarding the comparative attributes of the cars in this segment.

Let's debate design philosophy (some like Monet.. some like Picasso!) and adherence to the mission the cars were designed to address. Even as a current e39 owner, I can easily see the discomfort with certain BMW developments such as iDrive. Does it detract from the car's mission? Maybe so... maybe not... in the eyes of the designers. COnsumer acceptance/rejection will tell the tale.

Consumers (that's us) need to provide feedback to the OEM's regarding dumb ideas. Mfgr's... yes, including Lexus... deserve to win business away from former class leaders if they slip and fail to understand the consumer.

As far as I am concerned, Lexus produces terrific vehicles and has the quality production thing down cold. Even Porsche has worked with Toyota to improve production practices. By combining German engineering prowess with Japanese production methods, you'll begin to see the overall quality rankings improve in MB, BMW, Audi, etc.

If the Germans refuse to acknowledge their quality challenges, then you will, indeed, see a rise in prominence of Japanese makes in the higher-end performance segments. The cows are out of the barn, so the next few years should be interesting!

Just please save the single-threaded mentality for Lexus-specific boards where patting each other on the back is welcomed...

lexusguy · January 2005

I just read that article in my mag this month. Quite a heaping of praise from C&D, definitely sounds like "10 best" material to me. So long RL.

bmwdoug · January 2005

Just curious, how do you guys think the Chrysler 300C stacks up in this Luxury Market? I just read on Edmunds that the Chrysler is one of their to 10 picks for CEO's to drive and for Women Executives to drive. (the lists were made up of Luxury Cars) In addition, it make their top 10 hippest cars to drive.

I love BMW's, but after giving it some open minded thought, I believe Edmunds is right on with their lists. I think the 300C is one awesome car. It does not have the image or prestige of BMW, MB, or Lexus, or does it?? I just read that Shaq just bought one as did Michael Vick, and some real life CEO's just bought one. Interesting.

aggie76 · January 2005

Got my first good look at an RL this week while on business travel. Got a chance to sit in one and travel along side one for a good distance on the interstate. Much better looking than I initially thought but wow, does it appear to be small in size. Glad I didn't wait on buying my LS430 this past summer just to compare it to the RL - there is no comparison in space which is one of my key factors along with reliability and quality.

oac · January 2005

TGIF... Have had a full week and can sure use the rest the weekend provides.

Seems everyone who don't agree with you have to show-off how much more they know. What gives ? This forum is a comparison board for lux sport sedans, isn't it ? Everyone is merely stating their opinion, juiced up with some things they read somewhere. Nothing wrong with that. Trouble is many people don't really have their opinion except that which is spouted by C&D, MT, Automotive News, etc... Like these auto rags are that objective with no biases to one car/brand over any other....Need not name names here....

Personally, I've driven BMWs (330/528/530), Audis (A4/A6), Lexi (IS/GS/LS), MBs (C230 Kompressor/E320/S500), to name a few. I use my senses and judgements to form my opinions, and not base my thoughts on what some auto rags claim. Where FACTS exist that prove one car is superior over another, you won't find me arguing that one bit. So all you gotta do is prove your point, that's all.

To state that the GS will whoop the M is an opinion. To state the opposite is also an opinion. Why not wait for these cars to get here and we'll see how they stack up ?

lexusguy · January 2005

The 300C just doesnt play in the executive league, despite what Edmunds might say. Personally I found pretty much all of their picks for women to be rediculous. DC has the E for that. It seems to be a hit with the *bling* crowd because of the shiny grill and wheels. Its a bit too flashy for the execs I know though. The dont drive Escalades either.

bmwdoug · January 2005

Excellent points. I too wonder about the "bling" crowd. And, I wonder if the 300C draws the Escalade crowd as well. Good points.

lexusguy · January 2005

Occasionally I flip past MTV, and all of the rap stars seem to have a 300C now to go along with their H2s.

designman · January 2005

Yeah, I think the 300C is starting to develop into a cult thing. It's ugly but macho. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a video with them barbecuing steaks on that grille, smoking stogies in the process.

jrock65 · January 2005

It's useful and informative to post numbers and opinions of professional car reviewers, ALONG WITH the personal opinions of posters. Certainly a better read than someone who keeps inferring Lexus is the best because it's Lexus, blah blah blah.

I don't know a single poster here who DOESN'T have an opinion of his/her own, and only refers to the opinions of the mags. If you find one, let me know.

2006 Canadian GS prices came out today, they seem to be about 10% more expensive than comparably equipped M35/45. That's Canada though, it'd probably be different here.

jrock65 · January 2005

So far, I think the best "value" in this class is the M35 RWD with Journey and Navi at $45,260.

I bet very, very few M's are sold without the Journey package. The fact that xenon lights are an option on the M but standard on the G is quite odd. I bet it's just a marketing thing to leave off the base M, just so they could say advertise as "starting at $39,xxx".

jrock65 · January 2005

Posted by another person:

March Motortrend Comparo.

1) M35

2) RL

3) 530i sport

4) STS V6

5) A6

6) S-type

M35 stats:

0-60-6.3

60-0-118 ft

1/4 mile-14.7@92

slalom-64.4

skidpad-.86g

The M35 was a non-sport version.

lexusguy · January 2005

Woot. Go Infiniti!

jrock65 · January 2005

Error. The A6 came in fourth, STS came in 5th.

merc1 · January 2005

I wonder why the E350 and GS300 weren't present. I guess they aren't available just yet for testing??

M

lexusguy · January 2005

Interesting. The 5 series did better than I thought it would, and A6 and STS did worse. Where's kdshaprio to tell us its all lies and that 5 series is our lord and master?

r2917 · January 2005

Why not "woot! Go Acura"? Oh that is right...you have something against the RL for whatever reason....without having driven one. I do wonder if you would have posted anything had the RL been the top in motortrend's comparison.

I find it amazing how you seem to be able to comment on every car like you have experience with them yet you seem to have not driven any of them. Your opinion (to me at least) will only have some worth after you actually drive a car you talk about. The same holds true for anyone out there.

Are you 1sicklex by any chance?:) You sound just like he does

As for the new M, I still think its interior looks weak based on pictures. Horrible layout and I doubt its material quality is up to top standards.

Oh and I am left scratching my head about those saying the RL is sooooo small inside. What cars are you people driving?

kyfdx · January 2005

Don't like the post?

Just scroll..

r2917 · January 2005

I think it is more useful to post opinions with actual experience driving the car rather than look to what some stranger says. I am trying to figure out how a person can criticize a product (ie a car) without ever having driven it when people who have driven it say the total opposite.

r2917 · January 2005

so one can't comment or criticize the posts? Got it....great discussion one has going on here. I apologize for trying to give logic to a discussion devoid of it.

Go BMW!!!

kyfdx · January 2005

Okay.. one post to answer this..

You aren't criticizing his opinion or his post.. You are questioning his "right" to give an opinion.. based on him not driving the car..

We can all comment on any car.. and we all have biases.. there are a lot of opinions that I discount completely, based on the content, etc.. this is when I use my scroll button.

But, it does nothing to further the discussion, to denigrate someone's opinion because you think they aren't qualified to give it..

If you have a differing opinion, by all means, share it with us... It is the personal tone of disrespect that starts breaking down the discussion...and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way..

As always.. this is just my opinion..

regards,

kyfdx

lexusguy · January 2005

Because I dont like the Acura. I have every right to not like the Acura. I dont like its styling, I dont like its interior, I dont like the fact that its more expensive and slower than than the M35, and I dont like its worst in class braking.

Where did you see me say "I've driven the Acura and hated it"? I do intend to test drive the Acura. I dislike the 5 series even more, but I still drove one. I do like to experience what these cars are like. Thus far everything I've said about the RL does not indicate that I "pretended" to drive one just to bash the car.

kyfdx · January 2005

See? In this case.. lexusguy has every right to express his obviously misguided opinion.. and, I applaud him for that.. ;-)

regards,

kyfdx

(who is kidding, for pete's sake)

lexusguy · January 2005

I've seen this same argument on a dozen different threads here. You made negative comments about the car I like, therefore I'm going to get angry because you didnt drive the car. If driving a car was a requirement for posting about it here, these conversations would be mighty slow, and dull.

pat · January 2005

Hey folks, let's keep the personal comments out of this. We all are entitled to express our opinions about the cars (as opposed to other community members' behavior!) and no, there is no requirement that a car be driven before one can form and post an opinion about it.

And as was pointed out, scrolling past messages that you feel have no value is the thing to do rather than making a personal challenge as to one's "right" to hold an opinion. If you really have a problem with a post, the only acceptable response is to drop me an email and let me handle it.

Thanks.

formula · January 2005

Maybe we should just require people to disclose their experience with the car before expressing an opinion. Something like:

"I have not driven this car, I don't own this car, my opinion is based solely on what I have read in biased magazine articles, meanlingless statistics, and my own bias toward another car that I really like."

lexusguy · January 2005

Better yet, I'll get my lawyer to make a statement before each post.

pat · January 2005

Cars, people ... cars!

Again, there is no reason to require certain criteria be met before someone posts an opinion - whether those criteria have to do with first-hand knowledge of the vehicle itself or any kind of posting/disclosure rules or anything else. All opinions on the vehicles are welcome. If you find reason not to value any given opinion because any of the criteria which are important to you have not been met, then just skip it. It really is that simple.

Now it is time to move on and get back to what we are here to talk about which is the uh, well, I think you've gotten the idea!

jtt1 · January 2005

As the owner of a 2000 Acura RL, I thought I was just waiting until the new RL was out to upgrade. A Fed-Ex truck ended the wait so I had to buy something several months ago. Decided to buy a V6 Accord and wait to see how the segment shakes out. Having now seen and sat in all the contenders I am leaning toward the M35/M45. I may be the only one, but the idea of having to deal with the lawyer message on the nav system every time I start the car is enough to keep me away from any cars with Nav standard. M looks like the best bang for the buck. Now the question is V6 (smart choice) or V8 (macho choice)?

lexusguy · January 2005

The question with M35\45 seems to be wether you want really fast, or REALLY fast. The lowly M35 has enough grunt to keep up with an E430 or the old A6 4.2. Quite an achievement for Infiniti.

jrock65 · January 2005

Answer: M45.

-)

gogglespiasano · January 2005

It is ridiculous to say that the criticisms that some have of the RL are not valid just because someone has not driven the car. I have driven the car and feel that the comments about back seat and trunk space and mediocre braking/performance are on target.

Those observations have also been made even by Car and Driver which put it in their top 10 and by several others on the RL forum (some who like the car and some who don't). It is amusing to see defenders of the car deny measurements and side by side comparisons people have done at recent auto shows.

To me, the SH-AWD is nice but alot of the other technology the car offers is a poor substitute for having some of the deficiencies noted. It looks like the M series (or even a TL with AWD) could compare very favorably.

lexusguy · January 2005

"or even a TL with AWD"

The history of TL and RL makes me think that Acura may not give the TL AWD specifically for this reason. The TL has always killed the RL in sales, and has always been a significantly better value. While the RL is no longer the stodgy, over-priced Toyota Avalon that it once was, I dont think it offers enough over the TL to justify a $17,000 hike.

In the days when Infiniti was a joke, Acura had an easier time as the fun, value priced Lexus alternative. Now Infiniti is a stronger force than Acura, and they've carved out the perfect sporty Ying to Lexus' luxury Yang. It puts Acura in a very uncomfortable spot somewhere in the middle, in a similar situation that Audi is in vs. BMW and Mercedes.

docnukem · January 2005

I, too, faced the choice of the V6 or V8. As I am in the snow belt, the 6 with AWD made more sense. (Although my sense can be doubted since I ordered it without a test drive). If I lived about 300 miles south of here, the 45 sport would have won out.

I got a call from my dealer yesterday. They are receiving their first two M's on 2/17. The pre-ordered (at least here in west MI)cars will arrive the first week in March.

gold233790 · January 2005

We've owned or leased a vehicle from each of the above brands over the past ten years. We've been happy with each car, however each lends itself to a particularly different experience.

Lexus was plush, reliable as all get-up, and the best service experience (we were hardly there, but when we were it was 1st class). A little boring on the ride (LS 400), but silky smooth.

Audi (A6 and A8) was a great experience- a little spotty on the reliability, as there seemed to be middling little problems every couple of months that would require a half day at the dealership. But the service department was excellent, and probably the second best sales dealer experience.

Acura was a nice experience (TL, with our best friends and neighbors owning the new RL). Solid car, nothing too fancy. A shade over the "luxury line", if you will.

Infiniti was the best sales experience we had anywhere- to this day. I35, which is a nice but not great car. No reliability issues whatsoever. Looked at the G35, but too small. LOVE what I've seen/heard about the M- it may be my next car. Inherited a '91 Q45, and it was a great car while we owned it.

BMW is what I am currently driving- an '05 530i. LOVE the car- but am having some initial spotty service. Not a reliability issue- a problem loading software. It's a service issue, but not a reliability- that's a big difference IMO.

So.......I really think ALL of the current offering of the luxury manufacturers are excellent vehicles. Some may be faster than others, some more luxurious, some with a better repair history, etc.... But we are in an age where 40-60k is going to allow you the choice between close to a dozen fabulous sedans. Compare that to a decade ago. Not even close.

jrock65 · January 2005

MSRP's

2006 GS300 AWD with Nav 49999 (without levinson stereo)

2006 GS300 AWD w/out Nav 47024 (without levinson stereo)

2006 GS430 RWD w/Nav and chrome 58743 (nav and chrome are standard)

The above was posted by someone else in another forum. I can't vouch for the authenticity.

kirby2010 · January 2005

I've driven three of the cars on the list - BMW 530, MB 320, and my A6 (2.7T, w/speed). Still quite happy with the Audi. Based on several factors it was - at least for me - the clear first choice. Quattro was a clear discriminator in this price range. 6-speed, features, comfort all weighed in the decision. I felt the MB was over priced and the BMW too tight in the shoulders and a bit over-hyped.

Now that it's time to trade I'm thinking Acura RL or even the Infinti FX45 (I know it's not in the list). I'm headed out to test drive it in the next week or so along with the Acura RL and the new A6. I did a side-by-side of specifications and features of the RL, A6, 320, and FX45. Lot in common and a lot in of great choices in this price range. At the end of the day, though, the Audi has sold me on AWD.

lexusguy · January 2005

Every car in the segment now offers AWD, though that combined with a V8 is still rare.

merc1 · January 2005

Those prices for the GS300 seem very high and very uncompetitive, if true.

M

lexusguy · January 2005

Not necessarily. It doesnt seem too much higher than a similar M35x or M45.

merc1 · January 2005

I'd have to differ there especially cosidering how much the M35/45 appear to outperform the proposed GS300 and GS430, especially the GS300 with its smallish V6. I doubt their new 6-speed trannies are going to enable them to catch these hot new Infinitis. The Acura RL too appears overpriced imo compared to the M35, and even the base M45 sneaks in under the RL's 49K sticker. I think the Infiniti M's set the value standard in this segment.

jrock65,

Was that the current 225hp 530i or the new 255hp model?

M

lexusguy · January 2005

Agree, the M is definitely the segment benchmark.. for now. That may change when the GS gets its new engines though.

merc1 · January 2005

Well from a value standpoint was my point in the above post, not the outright segment benchmark. One comparo win doesn't begin to make a an outright benchmark.

M

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