Luxury Performance Sedans

drtravel · November 2005

Cars that have serious reliability problems do not sell.

au contraire..... Mercedes reliability issues are well documented yet they sell extremely well. Their E-series is the top selling LPS year-to-date. I have become quite friendly with my M-B service department (that's what happens when you buy one) and he told me that the service department's best customer is MBUSA - because of all the warranty work they perform. I have even joked with him that M-B has to charge an extra $10K per car just to cover warranty repairs.

IMHO Mercedes Benz is synonymous with Luxury Sedan or something that is the best. Much like the brand Kleenex has come to refer to all tissues. A local dealer advertises that they are the Mercedes Benz of Mercedes Benz dealers meaning that they are the best M-B dealer - and everyone understands their message. Why does M-B sell so well - because they are Mercedes. Their badge is gold although it may have lost a little luster of late.

kdshapiro · November 2005

I'm missing the point of what 42 and B'way has to do with anything. People buy cars for their reasons, not your reasons or my reasons. I personally do not give a whit for the reasons that people buy a specific car. It's none of my business.

drtravel · November 2005

I would venture to say that a majority of LPS buyers are really not that into the performance characteristics of their cars. How many E350 and 525i buyers are really concerned about their slalom times, push their car to even half of their handling capability or really know how to drive like amateur race car drivers? I know everyone on this board is but we do not really represent the majority of LPS buyers. A majority of LPS buyers choose the 6 cylinder engine and really want automatic transmissions, sunroofs, luxurious comfort, safety features and possibly the badge (snob appeal). Bluetooth connectivity seems to be one of the highest priorities. A similar phenomenon occurs with SUV buyers. How many 4-wheel drive SUVs ever leave the mall parking lot jungle for the serious off-roading they were designed for and emphasized in their advertising?

Back in my motorcycle days, many bought high performance bikes because some magazine said it was the "best handling" or had the "best performance". Many buyers of these bikes did not have the slightest skills necessary to push these bikes anywhere near their limits and easily got in over their heads when they tried. They should have bought cruisers assuming they didn't kill themselves first. But they wanted to look like performance studs instead - is that a "poser" quality?

I'm not claiming any of the preceding as facts....just one man's opinion.

jjacura · November 2005

Good to see a fellow 2005 RL owner in the LPS forum...
Your postings help keep things on an even keel!

Happy Thanksgiving!
(Going home for the Holidays?)

purplem46 · November 2005

Just a few ideas on that. First, if you are looking at Mercedes and BMW, an E class is going to be more comparable to a 5 series Bimmer, the C class competes more with the 3 series, the similarities are strong in size and cost. Check out Cars.com or google used cars, you'll find all the variety you want, and can compare selling prices.

If you are getting a used car, most dealers have certified used available. If not, find a mechanic to check it out when you get it narrowed down. Finally, if you put down $10K, if you're north of insolvent, a dealer will get you financed.

clarencehollow · November 2005

You want to drive what every other Tom, Dick and Mary does - buy a Lexus. If you want a superior car in every sense of the word, buy an M from Infiniti. Incase you haven't even driven one, you might want to see what all the fuss is about.

wale_bate1 · November 2005

Assumption here on the P-factor is that there is no benefit derived from a superior handling product at levels not even approaching limits. I don't buy that. IMO, the P-factor gives evidence of benefit in merely "spirited" driving, and for those of us who won't take them to a track but still go out of our way to take the road less straightened and regularly eschew freeways for backroads, the benefits are substantial.

Your insight on SUVs OTOH...

markcincinnati · November 2005

While I agree the M is a great car in many senses of the word, and it is probably superior in some senses of the word, it is NOT superior in every sense of the word (and none of these cars are.) :surprise:

In fact, I would venture to say the differences [between this group's members] from many perspectives are subtle.

Now styling, colors, ergonomics (to a point) some switchgear and appointments do rise to an area that cannot be said to be "subtle."

But the differences noted that are not subtle are entirely subjective with the possible exception of some ergonomic choices made.

Here in Cincinnati the "most common" car is probably the BMW, the least common the Infiniti.

If all you wanted was to drive a car that few people have you certainly could choose almost any but the Mercedes and the BMW.

The M is great -- it is not superior. In many ways the M is an also ran -- in a crowd of mostly superior cars.

Heck, if someone would make the $ attractive enough, the STS AWD would certainly be a great car too.

Come to think of it, perhaps the Acura RL is the least seen car around these parts.

The RL, too, is a great car -- but, again, running with this crowd, finding a clearly superior car is, shall we say, "challenging!"

If you are new to this forum be aware we all have strong opinions and we aren't afraid to share them.

Mostly, however, you will find if YOU extensively test cars in this class, comparably equipped (not perhaps simply comparably priced) -- AND you test the cars over the same test route -- you will find the attributes that appeal to you are probably more subjective than most of us care to admit.

Speaking as the converted -- a man who could never even imagine any car but an Audi was worth a tinker's cuss, i.e., then ordered an M35x, only to have Audi make me a deal $ I could not refuse, etc. -- I cannot imagine feeling I had gotten a short shrift with most of these cars from a "content" standpoint.

Styling preferences abound -- as do some measurable performance differences (but check out the stats, they are all pretty close to one another), overall though these cars seem to be acquired, not bought or leased, based mostly on subjective (emotional/passionate) criteria.

This class of cars is where the fuss is about, perhaps THAT we might mostly agree upon.

Probably not though.

Drive it like you live. :shades:

bdr127 · November 2005

I am not saying there is or is not a conspiracy. But your statement is not a valid reason as there is not one.

The free maintenance has nothing to do with failed components. Maintenance includes things such as filter change---can be viewed as a lump sum discount at purchase. It's the warranty that is related to the "conspiracy." However, BMW's warranty, at 4 years, is the same as everyone else.

If you don't maintain your car well, then you'll certainly end up with more problems down the line....

There are a lot of people out there that push out that oil change for another few hundred or thousand miles or take the car to Jiffy Lube for a service interval when they find the time or money....

If you have free maintenance, then you can bet BMW owners will get their service done. No reason to neglect it or put it off.

nebraskaguy · November 2005

Good to see a fellow 2005 RL owner in the LPS forum...
Your postings help keep things on an even keel! Happy Thanksgiving! (Going home for the Holidays?)

Thanks, always good to see your postings too. Happy Thanksgiving. Not going home until Christmas.

Hope you're enjoying your RL as much as I am!

hpowders · November 2005

BMW's use synthetic oil.
Oil changes are at around 12,000 miles.

jjacura · November 2005

I really am enjoying the RL a lot...it will be a year old on Saturday. For us it was a leap at the beginning and I remember coming into the Edmunds RL forum about 18 months ago to read opinions from some really interesting enthusiasts of all kinds about the new RL, including some of the people that we continue to read in the LPS forum. This particular car has been a pleasure to own and just about flawless. When you get excited about the car you own and can't wait to climb into it then what other car desires do you need. I continue to enjoy reading the posts though...very good stuff here. Probably more honest than you find in the Mags.

nebraskaguy · November 2005

I started reading about the new RL on these boards over two years ago after I first heard about the complete redesign. At that time, I had a 99 RL which I liked, but it was a little boring, though paid for. The more I read about the new RL, the more excited I got. When I heard it was going to be at the New York auto show in April 2004, I drove up to see it. I thought then, and I still do, that it was absolutely stunning. I drove back to DC and went right to my dealership to put a deposit on it. I was the first one out the door with it Oct 14, 2004, so mine is a little over a year old. There have been a couple of minor problems, but all have been fixed. It's a dream to drive and I wouldn't trade it for any of the other cars on this board.

markcincinnati · November 2005

Now this is a post I can really appreciate. More than many, this post makes me want to test the RL.

To underscore the theme, my 6 month old A6 has also been a joy and other than the pushbutton starter replacements, has been a dream to drive and own.

Unlike nebraskabuy however, I could be persuaded to trade my A6 for perhaps the M35X or a 530xi (stick only), an STS AWD and of course the RL.

I would have to revisit the Mercedes E 4Matic to determine if it would be placed on my list -- but I suspect it would merit another look see, too.

Got my winter floor mats, today and a new set of wiper blades (no charge) -- while I was at the dealer they put my new plates on Audi32 -- but I saw a 4.2 Sline while I was there and the wheels alone make the car look soooo good.

What a great time to own or be in the market for an LPS car!

Sylvia · November 2005

Retro Revival - Lincoln Continental
http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8d8bf

pop on over and comment!

mariner7 · December 2005

According to Kelley Blue Book, top 10 are, in alphabetical order:

BMW 5-Series
Chevrolet Corvette
Honda Accord Hybrid
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Infiniti M45
Lexus GX 470
MINI Cooper
Porsche Cayenne
Toyota Prius
Volvo XC90

Infiniti's the only brand with 2. There's not a single Lexus car or Mercedes vehicle. There are two hybrids. There are 3 SUV's. The only Porsche is Cayenne!!! Corvette is the lone American and sports car.

carnaught · December 2005

BMW 5-Series
Chevrolet Corvette
Honda Accord Hybrid
Infiniti G35 Coupe
Infiniti M45
Lexus GX 470
MINI Cooper
Porsche Cayenne
Toyota Prius
Volvo XC90

There's not a single Lexus car or Mercedes vehicle.

Hmmm, so the GX470 doesn't count.

nebraskaguy · December 2005

There's not a single Lexus car or Mercedes vehicle.

Hmmm, so the GX470 doesn't count.

The GX470 is one of the three SUVs to which reference was made.

hpowders · December 2005

As usual, totally confirms what I have been saying here for many months.
In the real world, regardless of what the many dissenting posters feel, the E60 BMW reigns supreme. No surprise there.
I was surprised that the LS430 didn't make the list.

jrock65 · December 2005

"As usual, totally confirms what I have been saying here for many months. In the real world, regardless of what the many dissenting posters feel, the E60 BMW reigns supreme."

Err, not exactly. The KBB report gave the best resale value award in the "Luxury" category to the Infiniti M45, not the 5 series.

2006 BEST RESALE VALUE: CATEGORY
SEDAN: Honda Accord Hybrid
LUXURY: Infiniti M45
COUPE: Infiniti G35 Coupe
PICKUP: Toyota Tacoma PreRunner
CONVERTIBLE: Chevrolet Corvette
SPORT UTILITY: Porsche Cayenne
WAGON: Subaru Outback
VAN / MINIVAN: Honda Odyssey
HATCHBACK: MINI Cooper / Toyota Prius (Tie)

http://www.autointell-news.com/News-2005/Oct-2005/O-2005-2/O-12-05-p7.htm

hpowders · December 2005

jjacura · December 2005

That's OK powders :surprise: ...it's good to have this forum up and running again. good stuff here! By and large there is mutual respect among owners...how could you not...these are all quality made machines. Once in a while though a responding poster should have access to an animated ROLLEYES emotorcon.(as mentioned by somebody in another forum) I could see it! :P

lexusguy · December 2005

Yeah, I'd like an icon like that everytime someone posts that anybody who doesnt buy either a Ford Taurus or Chevy Impala is a Communist.

hpowders · December 2005

I believe I still have some turkey tryptophan in my system as I completely overlooked that the list was in alphabetical order.
I let the late, great Chester A Riley speak for us humbled E60 owners as he said it best: "What a revoltin' development this is!"

hpowders · December 2005

jjacura · December 2005

"....anybody who doesnt buy either a Ford Taurus or Chevy Impala is a Communist."

Senator Joe McCarthy (Regretfully from my home state) just rolled over in his grave when you mentioned Communist. Glad none of his surviving stock took up that cause! We might all be driving Detroit sleds.

dewey · December 2005

Senator Joe McCarthy (Regretfully from my home state) just rolled over in his grave when you mentioned Communist. Glad none of his surviving stock took up that cause! We might all be driving Detroit sleds

Please show more appreciation to the deceased Senator! It is because of him that we are not driving Ladas and Trabants.

pat · December 2005

Let's get away from the communism and McCarthy line here ... we really don't need to go there.

hpowders · December 2005

Goodbye and good luck!

jjacura · December 2005

....and better tomorrows!

lexusguy · December 2005

Actually, it was Goodnight and good luck. I just saw that a few days ago, the guy that played Ed Murrow was spot on.

jimbres · December 2005

The Infiniti M is a terrific car that fully deserves the excellent press that it's gotten, but it was rolled out just 9 months ago. How can anyone predict what its resale value will be relative to the competition in, say, 2008?

hpowders · December 2005

No wonder I couldn't find the movie on the web.
They kept rejecting "Good bye!"
Did the guy playing Murrow always have a cigarette in his hand?
Murrow was an incessant chain-smoker.

drtravel · December 2005

Infiniti only sold 1,982 Ms last month - their lowest total for any month since introduction. How did the other LPS do?

rich545 · December 2005

BMW sold 5,185 5-ers in November. They sold 4,880 in October so sales didn't slow for them. MB sold 3,884 E's in November which represents a 21% decrease from October. Not sure what that's about. Audi sold 1,625 A6's. Acura sold 1,298 RL's.

hpowders · December 2005

Seems like a longterm upward trend for buyers of the latest 5 series, the E60, and should be considered as a tribute to the genius of Chris Bangle. Only he had the courage to go where no man has gone before. A total mega hit!

As the sales of the E60 indicate, looks like a lot of folks have no problem being seen in the E60, a design that has taken so much battering in the press and on the LPS and High End Luxury Marques boards. Their perception is totally divorced from reality.
If the car was actually perceived as repulsive by the public, sales should be in a dramatic longterm down trend since 2004 and that is surely not the case.

tyorder1 · December 2005

Where do you get these numbers for cars sold. I find it interesting and would like to look into it for some research.

BMW sold 5,185 5-ers in November. They sold 4,880 in October so sales didn't slow for them. MB sold 3,884 E's in November which represents a 21% decrease from October. Not sure what that's about. Audi sold 1,625 A6's. Acura sold 1,298 RL's.

rich545 · December 2005

I go here:

http://www.theautochannel.com/

If you click on any of the manufacturers' links along the right side of the page you'll get news articles, including press releases with sales figures.

qbrozen · December 2005

Wow! Jaguar is looking REALLY bad!

gohorns1 · December 2005

This is an interesting spin. Nissan of NA reported the 14.1% decrease in sales for Infinite last month. HOwever, they reported that the "all-new Infiniti M posted strong sales and had its best November ever." Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the first November ever for the all new M? Don't get me wrong, I like the M and in general Nissan/Infiniti, but..........

gohorns1 · December 2005

I know this was tossed around last month, but I still think it is misleading to lump different models of the same maker together. For example, for BMW, the 530 (in all its different configurations) sold 2416 while the 545/550 only sold 554. The BMW number quoted earlier, 5185, also included the 525's and M5. I think it is very misleading to just quote one number when there is such a great disparity between the different models.
The numbers for the 530 and 545/550 aren't far off from Lexus: GS300 = 2223 and GS 430 = 396. Clearly folks are going for the 6cy much more than the 8. So, if we are talking about the performance cars, which in my book are the 8's, these numbers these numbers aren't far off. Unfortunately, INfiniti did not break down the M45 and M35 (I doubt the #1982 listed were all M45's as is listed on the web site.)

drtravel · December 2005

From the owner of the local Infiniti dealership - V8 sales have typically been between 30-33% of total Ms sold. So somewhere around 600 M45s were sold last month. So for V8 lovers, the M45 and 545/550 are fairly close in sales although both are far ahead of the GS. This makes sense given the performance characteristics of the 3 cars.

For 6 cylinder buyers the 525/530 is clearly the choice (IMHO.... these are the likely badge buyers) although I would hesitate to call these buyers "performance orientated" as 525 sales almost match 530 sales. Not sure a majority of these buyers concern themselves with the P in LPS..... probably more concerned with Prestige or Status. Hmm.... does LPS really stand for "L"ooking for "P"restige and "S"tatus?

Anyhow... Seems like most forum members are concerned with performance so I'm not sure that we represent a majority of the actual buyers of these cars.

lexusguy · December 2005

Jaguar is literally giving new cars away. They have higher incentives right now ($7K+) than even Lincoln. The value of a new Jag simply evaporates into thin air the second its driven off of the lot.

dewey · December 2005

orientated" as 525 sales almost match 530 sales. Not sure a majority of these buyers concern themselves with the P in LPS..... probably more concerned with Prestige or Status. Hmm.... does LPS really stand for "L"ooking for "P"restige and "S"tatus?

The 525 buyers are not seeking P but H. H for handling dynamics which BMWs tend to excel in even with low hp.

You can find badge seekers among all luxury marques including Infiniti.

hpowders · December 2005

The fact is you can compare the 525, 530 and 545.
What do they share?
Why Chris Bangle's courageous new design, of course.
If the car had been perceived by potential LPS buyers as ugly and repulsive, why is the E60 such a great success?
The automotive print media have been relentlessly hammering away at how ugly the 5 is. How complicated the iDrive is, they whine.
CR couldn't knock it down with its mumbo jumbo black circle of unreliability; the methodology behind it an MIT rocket scientist couldn't comprehend.

merc1 · December 2005

I love your enthusiasm for BMW, it almost matches mine for Mercedes.

I too was one of those that didn't like the new look, but as time goes by the only car I still object to is the 7-Series. The 3,5,Z4 and especially the 650i are all good with me, have been for quite some time. The new 3-Series in Sport guise is pure BMW, agressive and sharply styled no doubt.

The fact is that automotive journalist aren't market experts and they afterall is said and done are just giving their opinion. I think people like a fresh and bold change now and then. BMW is on fire all over the world right now and they've got a gang of models coming so I don't see them cooling off any time soon.

I don't true BMW folks ever cared about what CR says, CR is for the Lexus/Acura folks.

M

jo2 · December 2005

I just purchased the BMW 53Oi for 2000down and 694/mo for 24 month lease - the total MSRP on the car was 54,500. It has premium package, sport package, and navigation. I was pretty happy with my deal and then I noticed that Audi is now running an UNBELIEVABLE 24 mo lease at around 519+tax well equipped on the A6?

What does everyone think?

lexusguy · December 2005

The red or black circles are the easy part. CR spells out what they mean in plain English. A full black circle means 15%+ of owners have reported problems with that area in their survey. Take it or leave it. Its the overall check, dash, or X that are more ambigious, because they are relative to other cars of that model year. A brand new car needs to score perfect pretty much across the board in order to get the "above average" check. Thats a very tough test to pass, which is why they will still recommend "average" cars if they do well in track testing and crash testing.

hpowders · December 2005

BMW took a big risk with the E60 and it has paid off handsomely.
Whether you love it, hate it or are somewhere in between, one must credit the company for boldly going where no man has gone before.
People find the new design aggressive and exciting, much to the chagrin of the automotive print media.

hpowders · December 2005

Regarding the 15% of owners who have reported problems, do you have any idea what the minimum size of the sampling population is for CR?
I don't believe I have ever read anything on that.

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