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Who are you to tell other people what they like? Are you really that condescending? Just because you don't like something, that doesn't mean that other people are "wrong" or not as good as you (because they aren't as much of an enthusiast as you). How pretentious.... yuck.
Great answer...LOL. I was afraid you were going to tell us that your are a priest at a Banglican Church and consider anyone with any negative feelings towards BMW a heretic and subject to a jihad.
As I said, they are strictly "hit and run."
They don't have the courage or the intellect to stick around and debate.
I knew we wouldn't hear from him again.
He fits the pattern.
When you wake up to face the new day, the Bangle 5 series is one of the greatest automotive success stories of the past 2 years. You cannot dispute this; hence the desperate and rather unsuccessful attempt at "humor."
The E39 already had incredible handling, but was boring and uninspiring to look at.
The 3's and 5's pretty much looked the same.
I wrote to BMW back in 2002, that it would be nice if they could come up with a 5 series design which is more distinctive than the 3. A lot of times I mistook the 5 for the 3. I got a form letter "thank you" in return, but I would like to think my input times probably hundreds of others distressed by the boring and tired E39 had some effect on the re-styling. Maybe. Maybe not.
Anyhow, thank you, BMW for listening and hiring the right man for the job, the incomparable Chris Bangle.
For he shall reign forever and ever.
Hallelujah!
AUDI/VW the safest cars in the industry!
Safety is among the top concerns for many buyers.
I hope Audi marketing will try to outdo Volvo with the "safety message". VW/Audi will be able to back up their safety message with a third party endorsement from the Insurance Institute!
The next VW/Audi ads should show real surviving accident survivors standing beside their crushed Audis and Volkswagens ! That may be called "maninpulative fear marketing" but I would call it "effective marketing"!
Here is my question to the CR reliability preachers who inhabit this forum:
Would you forgo a bit of reliability for the sake of safety?
I know I would!!
Nobody I know.
Nobody I know.
That is because you are a daredevil by nature who only knows fellow Evel Knievels that attend Bangle fan clubs!
My thoughts remain, these cars remain (and continue to become) more alike as each MY passes. If you love the Bangle look or the Trout Mouth look or the "Art and Science" look you might remain in denial of this.
But these cars offer content and performance that continues to move "towards the [same] sun." Some got there two years ago, some last year, some two years from now. . .then they will, once again, "reload" and we can debate and debate and hopefully have civilized arguments until we fill all of cyberspace.
Even if you don't care for Audis for whatever reason (and it will almost assuredly be subjective), you gotta at least appreciate their marketing:
Have You Got It? Clicky Here (four minutes long)
Well if that doesn't work here is the RAW URL:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2131184977031004836&q=Audi
As a BIG fan of my new 2006 530xi (my first BMW) and a supporter of hpowders' wild and fanatical praise for a car we both love -- I can look you SQUARE in your Internet-accessible eye and tell you that I ABSOLUTELY bought the 5-series because of its feline, aggressive and incredible looks!! I also liked it because of Manual Transmission and outstanding fuel economy (that's why I went with the 530 and not the 545).
So there you have it -- I am not hpowders but I ABSOLUTELY share and commend his enthusiasm for a fantastic car. That does NOT mean that others who choose other cars are wrong -- it just means that we love what we paid for and drive.
NOT ONE day passes without someone or the other praising the way the 530xi looks.
And now the ultimate vindication -- M sales drop while 5 series continue to rise. I don't follow that as closely as others on this forum do, but there you have it...
BTW, if hpowders keeps up that manner of Bangle worship, I think we will have to wheel him away in a straightjacket and muzzle. Either that or send him to Guyana with a bucket of Kool-Aid personally laced by Bangle himself.
;-)
When I rent a car, I also don't worry about what someone else might think. However, I won't rent the cheapest rental car available since many of these are small cars which I don't consider to be safe. Those of us who drive the cars discussed on this board sometimes take safety for granted, since these cars are among the safest around. However, many cars, especially small cars, just aren't that safe.
It has been getting lonely at the top.
There is always room for one more.
Merc1 is holding off the marauders on the High End Luxury Marques thread and I am fighting furiously in my never-ending crusade to promote truth, justice and the Bangleized way.
LOOK! OUT ON THE ROAD! IT'S A BIRD! IT'S A PLANE!
NO! IT'S THE MAGNIFICENT E60!
When people can't face the truth that the E60 is one of the few positive stories in the automotive industry, they attempt to shout us down with insulting derogatory humor.
Very little class on this thread, that's for sure.
If one of their cars was a success story, I would say congratulations and move on.
I guess it's not easy dealing with sales failures like the M35/45, Audi 6, Lexus GS, etc;
Unlike you folks, I show you compassion. I can embrace the losers.
Brothers: I can feel your pain.
If I were renting for a week, I could see moving up to a larger vehicle.
I don't want to stay off topic too long, but one of the more common types of accidents is rear-enders and small cars rank among the bottom in being safe in this type of accident. Short trips around town put you most at risk for this type of accident in my opinion.
Call me internet accessible too!
Pardon me for inserting my own lyrics but I am riding such a high knowing that I chose the truly outstanding LPS on this thread.
The people have voted and freddybb and I have chosen the winner.
But I will not gloat.
I will show compassion to my less fortunate posters who had the bad luck to choose the M35/45, A6 and GS.
Why aren't people buying these vehicles if they are so terrific?
The E60 is absolutely creaming all of the above in sales.
The E60 is up 43% in sales from November 2004 to November 2005.
Please answer instead of calling me names and attempting cruel jokes involving devastating tragedies.
Oh yeah, designman: I'm sure you can somehow put me into a 9/11/2001 joke.
That's about your level of humor.
Shame on you!
And while I'm here, let me echo nebraskaguy's recent request that folks use the Reply button. Or if you must be stubborn and not do so, at least identify the post/poster to whom you are responding. A lot of these posts recently have not made a bit of sense because no one can figure out the context.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Criticize what I am saying about the E60 with some good, hard facts.
Debate!
But when designman and docnukem tell me to take some Jim Jones poisoned kool aid or that I am somehow crazy wearing a straight jacket pecking away at the keyboard with my nose, you bring this thread way, way down.
Debate me over the E60 and if you can't, then don't say anything.
I can go on plugging away about the E60 for a long, long time and I intend to.
And finally, I must apologize to all my loyal readers out there anticipating a good, healthy, honest debate.
I know I have kept my part of the bargain.
Norton woo woo.
;-)
And you drive a what...?
Typing with ones's nose hasn't been easy.
It's a miracle I've come this far.
In case you haven't been able to tell, I do favor the E60, but I have driven all cars discussed on this thread, save the A6 and RL, and they are all fine vehicles.
I didn't drive the RL because I didn't like the idea of a nav. system being shoved down my throat.
I never got around to the Audi because I was running out of time and had to make a
decision really fast.
It really came down to the Infiniti vs the BMW.
I drove the Infiniti 4 times and each time I just didn't feel right about it.
The car felt really heavy.
The Infiniti's brakes beat the BMW's, however. Those are some of the best brakes on any vehicle that's out there. That car will stop on a dime.
Each time I drove the E60, it was like plunging into a nice warm spa.
The driveability was just about perfect.
If one doesn't like Bangle's styling but appreciates a great driver's car, one just has to bite the bullet and go for it.
It would be a shame to deprive oneself of one of life's great experiences.
The styling tends to grow on you.
I call them "hit & runners."
Do you honestly think he will be back to answer your queries?
For the record, I like your car too -- or at least I can say I like the BMW family of cars overall. The fact that BMW offers a stick shift and AWD certainly puts this LPS car in a category of one as far as I know. This combination of features/content alone makes the 5 series a real contender as far as I am concerned.
Yet, as the owner of the car that fights and fights hard to be last on the list (in terms of monthly sales in the US) or next to last, I can report to you that I really like my A6 more and more as time passes.
Perhaps sales mean more than I think, I don't want to get in a sales numbers contest -- I will concede the BMW 5 and the Mercedes E are the sales leaders in units per month here in the US. Based on what I have read, however, this sales dichotomy seems to not be the case in the home market -- if that actually matters.
Indeed, Audi is having its best year ever -- and it is comparing its current records to its previous records. Audi is on a roll.
Likewise, the majority of the LPS comparison articles AND stand alone articles proclaim(ed) the Infiniti M as the new winna and champeen. We German car fans may not like this much, but for the moment the M is according to many the King of the Hill.
Then you have the World Car of the Year award -- which did go Audi's A6. Heck, I am not certain that influences my thinking, it never did before.
Now, today you have the Insurance Institute's safety awards and it seems that 3 Audis and 1 VW made the grade. The A6 made the grade with a "silver" rating. No BMW, this time, was so selected.
Of course, knowing Audi they will not capitalize on the positive press such recognition should/could/ought-to generate. BMW keeps selling its cars based on the car -- Audi, and most of the other guys, seem to sell the price of entry rather than the product. BMW, to its credit, sells the car's virtues.
But, I, as usual, digress.
While the highest zoot BMW 5 series cars are outstanding performers with little competition (today), most of us are buying our A6's, RL's, M's, E's, STS's, and 5's with 6 cylinder engines (and two wheel drive, I'd bet given the choice.)
So, sales figures while impressive and important are not in and of themselves proof of superiority.
The BMW 5 and the Infiniti M's are very much alike. And, to my ear, butt and head the A6's and the M35x's are also VERY similar.
After driving the STS, 5, A6 M, E and some other lesser cars (and after reading to excess the reviews from both sides of the Atlantic), I could only conclude that the M, the 5 and the A6 are three very closely matched cars based on content and performance.
Further, after an admittedly unfair but not unlikely comparison that I personally participated in, the STS when equipped to the maximum with "sport" options, when compared with the 5 at the base level (530) -- gulp, is superior.
Some may love the appearance of the 5 or the STS or the RL or the M "more" than the Lexus or the A6 -- that is certain to happen but proves nothing.
I am hoping that we can return to talking about these cars subtle differences (for there are few substantial differences beyond the 5's combo of AWD and stick, which most folks probably eschew.)
Please understand that it is difficult to believe that the styling alone (Mr. B's influence) is sufficient to declare the 5 is superior.
If I subscribed to the notion that the auto magazine reviews were the oracle of all oracles, I would have to believe that the M is the best except when the A6 is declared the best by the contrarian Automobile magazine. Most magazines praise the 5, highly, but they also, this year, have said the 5's 15 minutes have passed.
Next year, the 5 may, once again, rise to the top and the M's the RL's and the World Car may be toads.
Today, the 5 has received virtually no wins, if any. It has not been awarded any major "global" awards, is not on the list of the most safe cars to be in during an accident, apparently CR has returned it to simply average status (but this means nadda to me) and it, in the US, outsells (usually) all the other guys.
Yet, most of us would agree that the 5 is a fantastic performer. Some folks thinks it is the best. My guess is most folks who really are into this stuff think the 5 has some stiff competition, even if they remain convinced it is clearly superior.
Once again, I conclude saying this is a great time to be in the market for one of these cars -- they are quite similar, styling notwithstanding, very similar in fact.
Of course, I am often wrong, just never uncertain. :shades:
Who cares that the 5 has received "virtually no wins, if any" and none your other measures of "success." I certainly don't!
What it has won is the admiration of the majority of the LPS buying/leasing public who are spending the bucks.
They and I certainly don't care about any of those things you mentioned.
They are voting with their pocketbook and that is the biggest "win."
When you purchase an LPS, it is the P that is the most important letter.
BMW's have never been about plush interiors or breathtaking styling.
People who constantly criticize the interiors as dismal or sparse are TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!
You want an interior. Get a Lexus!
What BMW's have always been about is providing some of the most pleasurable, exciting, responsive driving experiences in this price-range on the planet.
And that is why BMW has some of the most fiercely loyal customers on the planet.
I am proud to consider myself one of them.
Audi A3
BMW 3-Series
Ford Fusion
Honda Civic
Hyundai Azera
Infiniti M
Lexus IS (the GS was only a contender)
Mazda MX-5
Mercedes CLS
Their ultimate winner - the Honda Civic. If money, reliability and family's comfort were no objects, I'd buy the CLS 500 - quite an attractive car IMHO. Sadly none of the LPS are really that stunning.
I would never purchase a car under that circumstance.
However, I eventually want to drive the RL and A6.
It will help me appreciate where owners of these cars are coming from.
I would probably choose a Mazda3 if shopping around for a car in this category.
I hope you know I wasn't trying to offend either. I know you like to stir the pot...I just like yanking pot-stirrers chains by occasionally suggesting that they are drinking from it, too.
I am glad you like your 5. I like my M, too (but I don't say Ghosn and Hallelujah in the same breath...well, except to say that I don't).
Guess I'm gonna have to use more emoticons.
FURTHERMORE
Many exterior current BMW styling features have been blatantly ripped off from other cars. So Bangle isn’t influencing anyone. Bangle gets “credit” because his staff took ugly to extremes.
The term “Bangle butt” is now generic and should be sanctioned by Webster’s. However, it was ripped off from Bentley, Chrysler and Honda long ago.
Also the flaky BMW headlamps are not original. Go look at the Aztek headlamps for living proof. You usually don't notice the Aztek lamps because they are camouflaged by all of the other action going on up there. Yep, they hitchhiked on to that baby.
Lastly, the “Bangle butt” is a misnomer. It should be called the Hooydonk Butt or Hooydonk Dank because Adrian Von Hooydonk designed the 6 and 7, not Herr Bangle.
The only BMW motif that is probably original and is being mildly emulated is the Bangle scar tissue aka flame surfacing.
Time to take a step back, take a deep breath and put things into perspective.
Makes me realize what really is truly important in this world...
Cars! Cars! Cars!
But at least you support your argument with facts.
If I ever get to see an Aztek, I will definitely be checking the headlamps.
Woo! Woo!
The did it in such as way as to be original though. For that I give Bangle credit. If another designer could of thought of it they would have, but they didn't. In other words, BMW is original in it's rip-offs. Betcha other car manufacturers wish they could be as original as Bangle.
I too didn't see what they were talking about listing all those cars that were supposedly influenced by Bangle. The new S-Class has a Maybach butt, not a Bangle one. The other cars they listed may take one thing here or their, but only if you really use your imagination. If anything the new Lexus LS looks like VW Phaeton to me, especially from the front, not a BMW.
M
Well if that is the case you're going to love BMW. They're the kings of selling stripper models with prices that almost look reasonable. Just don't assume you'll get anything standard on the car.
I agree totally. It really turns me off to see a "luxury" car advertised at a reasonable price only to discover that nearly everything that makes a car "luxury" is extra. The first time I looked at Lexus cars and discovered that leather seats were extra did it for me. As far as complaining about Acura and its "loaded car-take it or leave it", what about so many of the other cars and their packages. Everything sounds like its ala carte, but then you start looking and if you want X option, you have to buy Y package that contains eight options you don't want (or the price makes it so unattractive to buy just the one option, you end up with the package).
An additional irritant is trying to find the car with the options you want. If you don't order the car and wait months, you end up getting one without some of the options you want, or getting a lot of options you don't want.
At least Acura is honest and up front about it - here's the car we make, with these features, period.
With Acura, what you see is what you get. No choices.
I would rather have the choice especially since I never use a nav. system.
The car is no bargain if I must pay for stuff I will not use.
Indeed, the content, performance and now even prices continue to converge and are now revolving around the same sun.
Today, the 530xi w/6spd manual would be my choice as the number one vehicle were I not encumbered with another 29 lease payments. The cars offering V8's would be great performers every one of them (I assume.)
But, as much as I like performance, my last three V8 Audis sounded sweet and sucked gas like it was water -- I assume all these V8 versions are thirsty. And, since only Audi and Cadillac offer AWD and a V8, well I discount them.
Every day my short commute to the office seems to take longer and longer. I am, due to traffic, driving ever more slowly. Rarely do I get much chance to stretch the legs of my car. Even more rarely can I carve through twisties (even though I do so at every opportunity.)
We enjoy (and perhaps love) our cars increasingly for subjective reasons. To repeat, ONLY the BMW stands out -- and I'd wager the one BMW that stands out (and for some of us is superior when configured thusly) is NOT the one purchased most often (AWD + 255HP + 6spd manual.)
While I appreciate the banter -- and I hope it will continue mostly unfettered -- I do hope the car manufacturers soon come out with clearly (or more clearly) differentiated cars.
At least, at the moment, styling cues do separate these cars. Remember when Lexus cars were shamelessly copying Mercedes?
Reading the magazines, and worshipping their prose as some folks apparently do (especially CR which I find confusing) it would seem we would all have test driven the Infiniti M, the Audi A6 and even the STS. Perhaps, too, if you are a long term C&D reader you would have felt the need to test the RL. I do wish I would have been able to test it -- rather than just sit in one at the auto show, but it didn't happen. Then I just kept seeing Accord when I looked at the RL and, well the Infiniti just blew everything else away (at the moment I put my deposit down.)
The overwhelming reason I am in the new A6 is the apparent "hail Mary" play by Audi and my dealer with respect to the price.
Had things taken their course, I am certain I would be here happily driving the car that the overwhelming majority of "experts" say is the best -- the "M."
Yet, if BMW would swoop down and say "here is your new 530xi and we'll take care of the lease on the A6," I could see myself driving the only one of these cars that is clearly different (today.)
For what its worth, I am not a fan of the exterior styling of the "5", but that is really minor -- since I don't find it repulsive. Hey, I was willing to live with an "M" which I think is also kind of an ugly duckling.
And, for pity's sake, sometimes the front end of the A6 is just too much for even me to stomach.
Great time, great place to be alive -- can't wait for the next generation of this class of cars, in fact. Hope they figure out ways to remain competitive and differentiate themselves at least a tad bit more.
M
Before too long, nav systems will be so standard, and so expected, that selling a used car without it might be problematic.
Also, as I've pointed out before, sometimes you get a feature like nav, that you think you'll never use, and once you have it you find it's very useful. This happened to a friend - now he'd never buy another car without a nav. It's now happened for me with Bluetooth. I'd never have sought out the feature, or paid extra for it. However, now that I have it, I find it's great.
A recent experience with my nav - A friend and I were going to meet friends at an unfamiliar restaurant. My friend, who thinks nav systems are a ridiculous waste of money, pulled up the restaurant on Mapquest. He called me up and said "I don't think we can get there from here!" Due to the location of the restaurant at the confluence of two freeways and several major streets, the routing looked nearly impossible. My navi took us there with no hesitation whatsoever. While waiting to be seated, I overheard the hostess trying to give directions on the phone to someone. Even as good as I am with directions, I would never have been able to find the restaurant based on her instructions, even though they were exactly correct.
You have to get nav. with the RL.