Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Luxury Performance Sedans

1101102104106107201

Comments

  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    and I'd wager the one BMW that stands out (and for some of us is superior when configured thusly) is NOT the one purchased most often (AWD + 255HP + 6spd manual.)

    Hey Mark... I always appreciate your posts. Be sure to add the 215HP 525 to the mix because it sells almost as many as the 255HP 530. My thesis has been that we on this forum do not really represent the majority of LPS buyers and consequently what is important to this wise group might not be that important to the people who lease the majority of these fine automobiles.

    Like it or not, auto mag writers are hired because they are "experts" but when making an emotional decision like buying a LPS who needs experts? This wise group continually thrashes them and I'm guessing here but... I doubt a majority of the leasing public read or care about their thoughts.

    For the record I would choose the 545 (the 550 wasn't out then) barely over the M45 but I would choose the M35 barely over the 530/525 - which is what I actually did. I wonder how many LPS leasers actually test drove or seriously considered many alternates? I know that my local Infiniti dealer has received quite a few 3-year old BMW and MB trade-ins for the M but no Acuras, Audis, Cadillacs or Lexi, but that really doesn't prove anything.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    With all the talk about Bangle's design "genius" let's not forget that he really didn't turn a company on the brink of bankruptcy around and make it a luxury contender - that would be Carlos Ghosn's claim to fame. Before Bangle I don't recall BMW having troubles selling their autos. Nissan/Infiniti before Ghosn was in trouble.

    The year before the G was released not one Infiniti dealer was profitable but then Ghosn introduced the G, FX and now the M and Infiniti dealers are profitable and rapidly expanding. He introduced daring designs (some are ugly), better management techniques, and improved production methods. He still needs a smash new Q45.

    The company had the reasonable expectation that the M would not outsell the established brands (it takes alot of years to build the brand identity) but the fact that they are a serious contender considering their "heritage" says volumes about the Ghosn effect.

    PS check out the older posts 546 and 548 for some other insightful thoughts.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Subjectively, I would assume the 525xi with the manual would "seem" to be a better performer than the 530xi automatic -- however, I have not been able to drive a 525 of any flavor and have only twice driven an AUTOMATIC equipped 530xi (dealer won't stock manual versions since he says they just rust or are so heavily discounted they might as well be purple.)

    My imagination leads me to believe in the 530xi stick -- that coupled with the fact that I do get to drive my wife's X3 3.0 with sport and manual and I extrapolate that the 530xi stick would only be a step up.

    Yep, the V8 M and A6 and 5 are probably awesome. But of these three, my choice would have to be an "Sline" A6 since I won't have one without AWD.

    I wonder if the Mercedes V8 4matic equipped cars are in the LPS class -- or are they the next step up from LPS if for no other reason than price?

    Were funds unlimited, I would (based only on articles) choose the new Audi S8 -- but funds are not unlimited.

    I read the editorial about diesel cars, especially the 4.2 Audi diesel, and for me that might be the ultimate LPS car if one were dumped into an A6 Sline outfitted version.

    I was recently in Munich and at the BMW museum there certainly appears to be testimony enough to convince me that a diesel Bimmer would be the top dog, too.

    Of course all the Mercedes diesel taxi's further support the notion that the right car for the time would be diesel, and one would think the right car as battery technology improves would be a diesel electric hybrid.

    The LPS cars will be, I predict, the birthing place for these technologies in the US if we ever get our fuel quality up to par.

    Top gear had a piece recently where a journalist drove from London to Wales and back (in traffic) -- a journey of 800 miles -- in an Audi A8L V8 diesel (4.2 twin turbo.)

    The fuel tank in this land yacht was 19 gallons.

    You do the math.

    This was in a whale sized car -- hmm, what would happen if Audi, BMW and Mercedes offered such engines (in the US) in their A6, "5" and "E" class cars? 45, 50 or more MPG (using all the tricks the TV journalist used to achieve 40 MPG in an A8, of course.)
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    The Acura TL is a bargain assuming you want a loaded car.
    I would rather have the choice especially since I never use a nav. system.


    The nav system is optional on the TL, you can easily buy the car without it.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    It also makes every Acura on the road just like every other Acura. The only differences being either with or without Nav and the color. I can see where this is appealing from a price/equipment standpoint, but it makes Acuras very non-unique cars, IMO.

    I don't understand how that is important. I mean, the first thing I notice about a car is the model and the color. I can't easily see the seat type, the audio system type, whether the rear seats fold down, whether there are heaters in the seats, or what transmission it has. And I don't usually go inspecting cars that are on the road for these things. Sounds like a red herring to me.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    In defense of MR. Bangle, it seems he has had to battle his way even with BMW owners. You can find his detractors... over 12,800 have signed an internet petition to have him removed. http://www.petitiononline.com/STOPCB/petition.html

    Recently however one thing that can not be disputed is Monthly sales of BMW automobiles were up 44 percent, to 18,419 cars compared to 12,796 sold in November 2004. Why is that?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I indicated this in my post # 5349.
    When I wrote TL, I really meant to say RL.
    One has to get the nav. on the RL.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Because the 12,800 make up a minority.
    Circulate a petition of BMW owners who approve of the job Bangle has been doing and there would be many more than 12,800 people willing to sign, IMHO.

    As for me, I am sitting here with my trusty Bic at the ready.
    One has to be fast, however.
    My goal is to humbly be among the first million signatures.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    When I see an RL on the road I know exactly what kind of equipment is on that car. So what? Too me the car is pure poetry in motion and that's all that counts. If someone else chooses to notice and like the car that's great. If they don't then well...I'm not going to know or care but I refuse to try and hold them by the nose and pour down that cod liver oil we were talking about earlier. ;)
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    ;)
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    "The only differences being either with or without Nav and the color."

    Ahem. Automatic or stick is included on several of the Acura's menus, too. :D But if you were referring to just the RL, true.

    Being "fully loaded" is part of the Acura value proposition. You get all the goodies, whether you desire them or not, for much less than the price of a comparably equipped (insert Euro-model of choice here). But, if the (insert any model here) is not the car you actually want to own/drive, then it matters not. If you want a BMW/MB/Audi/Caddy you pay the price of admission. Plus options, of course...

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    From the head office of Acura in Johannesburg, South Acura:

    Flash: "As of February 1, 2006, all Acura RL vehicles will be issued in celestial silver metallic with ebony leather interior.
    No other color schemes will be available.
    It is to be hoped that this decision will take away the potential anxiety of having to make a choice from so many confusing exterior colors and interior color schemes and will make it that much easier for the buyer of this most desirable vehicle. Once again we at Acura demonstrate that we are on the cutting edge of the automotive industry." ;)
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    A Brilliant manufacturing cost saver. Sodomite Silver hasn't been introduced yet so I am wondering if this new metallicy will reflect different hues to the viewer as personified by a rainbow?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    A correction came through from the South Acura office and post # 5361 was changed accordingly.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . . I agree with whoever said it, will soon be standard equipment as they can contribute to the safety of the vehicle. Plus, once you use one (for a short while at least) it might very well become a necessity. Thus is so for parktronic, sat radio, navigation and voice control (at least as far as I am concerned). On the other hand, pushbutton start I can take or leave.

    The RL having everything as standard does not strike me as having stuff rammed down my throat. It takes all kinds.

    On the other hand, BMW seems to charge extra for almost everything.

    To each his / her own.

    I pretty well checked off all the option boxes on my A6 -- I cannot imagine NOT getting navigation (but then again I got my first one in 2000 and between my wife and I, we have had 6 cars with navigation.)

    My wife caved in to my pressure to get the navi -- now when she calls me on the phone from Columbus or Dayton or Pittsburgh where she has driven on business, I hear the BMW lady's voice in the background telling her to "turn right in 800 feet. . ."

    ABS, ESP, etc etc etc and soon navi systems will be in Neon's and Saturns and probably even the least expensive of all cars will at least offer them as relatively low cost options.

    My bet is no dealer will stock a car without it (navi) in the not too distant future.

    I guess if you don't care for navi, you can elect not to use it.

    But, I do understand the point that will certainly follow: "why do I have to pay for stuff I don't use?"

    Perhaps it will reach the point that the incremental cost of having navi will be considered a "nit" for most folks.

    I remember when power steering was extra cost -- I actually ordered a car with power brakes and manual steering because I wanted the control that, at that time, could only be retained with unassisted steering.

    We keep moving forward -- hopefully the move(s) is (are) positive.

    Don't take my navi away!
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Ahem. Automatic or stick is included on several of the Acura's menus, too.

    Now that you mention it, the only cars in Acura's lineup that you don't have an option of transmission (in the States) are the RL and MDX. That's fairly impressive (even if not so much so the performance) for any brand. What other brand (in the States) besides BMW offers that?
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Once you've used a navigation system, you will find it nearly indespensible. If you live in a city of any appreciable size, a navigation system is very good for you. If you travel a lot, it could be invaluable.

    If my navigation system died today, I'd have an exact replacement on the way by the weekend. :surprise: Despite the high price for the factory unit, I'm not one for having my dash chopped, cut, and rebuilt for aftermarket electronics. Not to mention losing the integration with the other electronics of the car.
  • nebraskaguynebraskaguy Member Posts: 341
    Once you've used a navigation system, you will find it nearly indespensible. If you live in a city of any appreciable size, a navigation system is very good for you. If you travel a lot, it could be invaluable.

    Amen. So many people who've never experienced a navi simply can't understand how useful they can be. Now, if you live in Nebraska (where I'm originally from, of course), and drive on the same roads year after year, and go to the same other towns, year after year, you will probably never need or use a navi. However, for many people, navis would be very useful, whether they'll ever admit it, or not.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    I have only my opinions to share and we all know what they are like.However, I have driven the 525 and wondered why in the world someone would buy this car and still demand the right to vote. I have driven the RL extensively and thought wow, I'd give up my right to vote if someone would just give me this car. Now I understand that there is two different philosophies there. But if you buy a car that can handle so well, why would you buy it so it could be sluggish, and slow in an apocoliptic manner. I just think the two have to go hand in hand to some degree. Justifying the high price of a bimmer because it handles so well {no argument from me there} only to get one that's painfully slow, reaks of badge worship. {dare I say of sheep like proportions}
    Now, after being quite the Acura guy for some time{still am for value to dollar sake.} I am really starting to drink the Audi Kool-Aid . Much better service from dealership, German handling, great interior. But I couldn't justify the 3.2 to go along with such a great driving experience. Mark in Cinci, does it have a lot more pickup than I think it does? {haven't driven yet}
    I also don't think I could justify a German car loaded with everything either. But the Acura makes sense to me in that way. Plus, there electronics are far superior IMO. Thanks to all who respond :shades:
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I haven't driven the 525i, but I've driven the 530i and 550i Sport. The 530i felt ridiculously slow. If I were to buy a 5-series, it would HAVE to be the 550i. It doesn't much matter how well you can corner when you're the last one to reach it anyway! :P
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The Audi A6 3.2 was adequately powered for about 9,000+ miles -- then the typical Audi (or is it German) trait emerged: at something between 9 - 11,000 miles German engines seem to find another 10+% power.

    The 3.2 has done thus -- the power is now "ample."

    Now, having had three Audi V8's, I am not telling you this is THAT quick. But, the 255HP 243 lb ft of torque feel, NOW at 10,000 miles, strong.

    The sound that the 3.2 makes is "nearly" as sweet as the V8, too. Which is a bonus.

    I can only urge you to test drive one of these extensively.

    But, I would also urge you to test the M35x too.

    I know the RL's electronics may be superior, but thus far, I do not have too much to complain about with the Audi's electronic compliment.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .I had my curiosity aroused by some of the monthly US sales reporting that folks dutifully report here on-line each month.

    Not that sales figures listed from highest to lowest are all that revealing. . .because no context is (and maybe cannot be) given.

    For instance, if X sells more than Y by 100% but has 3 times the number of retail outlets, well, that says one thing. If X sells more than Y and they have the same number of outlets, that says something else -- for instance.

    As the numbers and ancillary information become more and more integrated, a truer picture of what sales figures suggest beyond the obvious emerges.

    So with my trusty Google tool bar I searched for a few minutes and came up with this concatenation of "data."

    ==========

    12/2005:

    BMW global sales have surpassed those of Mercedes-Benz this year, according to Germany’s Automobilwoche. BMW expects to have sold 1.317 million cars by the end of the year, while Mercedes says it will have sold 1.23 million. So far, BMW sales are up 11 percent, and Mini sales are up 12 percent. Mercedes Group sales are up just 1 percent through September. Meanwhile, Audi is expected to surpass 1 million units globally in 2006 or 2007 for the first time in the brand’s history.

    Audi sold almost 767,000 vehicles worldwide between January and November, an increase of 8.8 percent on the corresponding prior-year period. Around 69,700 vehicles were handed over to their new owners in November, 2.0 percent fewer than in the same month last year. However, 2004 saw the market launch of the Audi A4 in November and, before that, the A3 Sportback. Both of these launches ensured an exceptionally strong November in 2004.

    More than 23,000 vehicles were handed over to customers in Germany in the past month (up 2.5 percent; November 2004: 22,458). The sales volume up to the end of November therefore totalled around 230,500 vehicles, 8.5 percent more than in the same period in 2004 (January to November 2004: 212,483).

    The best November sales figures ever were recorded in the USA: a total of 7,909 vehicles were sold, representing an increase of 15 percent on last year (November 2004: 6,879). The Audi brand consequently sold 74,224 vehicles in the USA in the period January to November. This represents an increase of 5.6 percent on the previous year (January – November 2004: 70,267).

    “A particularly pleasing aspect of the figures is that they represent increasing market shares. With 4.2 percent in Western Europe, we have achieved a record market share for the Audi brand,” commented Ralph Weyler, AUDI AG Board Member for Marketing and Sales. “In Germany, too, we are 0.4 percentage points better off than last year, and have attained a market share of 7.5 percent.”

    Now, somewhere, there must be a current data point about the "market share" of these three brands in Germany. I thought I had read somewhere that these three brands went [non-permissible content removed]-for-tat against each other, recently with Audi beating BMW who then beat Audi and so forth at the expense of Mercedes.

    Audi includes Audi, BMW includes Mini, who knows what Mercedes includes. The point is, should Audi be lumped in with VW to indicate the broader top to bottom sales (as does BMW when it lumps Mini in with "regular" BMW)?

    Nothing, presumably would be proven by such a snapshot of market share -- but it seems to me that it would at the very least be an interesting exercise.

    Of course, then it would be interesting to note Cadillac's US sales against, for example, the BMW's and somehow come up with a market share figure of these brands.

    Then, to fully boggle the mind, how about a comparison of # of dealerships, etc to determine just how bad things REALLY are at the General.

    Note: I still rather doubt that numbers alone will prove that one is "better" than the other, but it would do wonders in helping understand the likely "survivability" of, say, GM, in a given market, geography and segment.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    It seems many of the posters on this forum are self declared "experts". Some scoff at the magazine "experts", and then they expect us to take their personal opinions as "expert", and disregard the professionals. ;)
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    It's worth noting that the geek web sites - CNET comes to mind - have an entirely different take on auto nav systems. The received geek wisdom is that the current generation of nav systems is so laughably primitive that only a fool would invest more than a few hundred dollars - preferably in a portable unit (a Garmin, for example) that can be easily replaced when the next big thing comes along.

    Mind you, I'm not saying that I agree with this, although I do have a Garmin that I move among our 3 cars & that I find adequate to the task. It's quite possible that I would opt for a factory system if I were to buy an LPS tomorrow - mainly, because they look so cool. But this is a common POV among the tech-oriented web sites, & it is something to think about for those of us who buy (as opposed to lease) our cars & hang onto them (as I do) for 5+ years. Perhaps we long-termers might be better off with a low-cost (my c330 cost $550) non-built-in solution.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I don't recall anyone on this thread ever declaring that he was an "expert." If you go back through the 5373 posts on this thread, you will find quite a few "I am no expert..." statements.
    Unless someone was being sarcastic to make a point (like: "Oh yeah. You're the expert!"), you will find that nobody on this thread has ever come out and declared himself to be an expert on any of the cars we talk about.

    :confuse:
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    It seems many of the posters on this forum are self declared "experts". Some scoff at the magazine "experts", and then they expect us to take their personal opinions as "expert", and disregard the professionals.

    I'm an expert, but I'm just not sure on what?? That's a fact!!

    Just waiting for the defensive denials to come in....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The navigational system storm clouds clear. :(
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Why, on irritating me, of course!
  • warthogwarthog Member Posts: 216
    People can disclaim all they want, but it's clear enough that several frequent contributors consider themselves to be authorities, albeit with the usual politically correct demurrers. At least the mags give facts and figures, presumably not fudged. The reader can decide for himself whether the data support the conclusions of the writers. The only figures usually seen in this forum are sales figures, as though that means anything about the merits of the cars in question.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    a little trace of Paranoia setting in there ...I think DrTravel likes you...If you can dish it out you gotta be able to take it...what you sow you're gonna reap.BLAH...BLAH ...BLAH ;)

    Now if I can just set aside a little more time to comprehend Mark's last post.....GEEZ....and I thought I was good with numbers... IT Takes an EXPERT I guess!
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    I enjoy reading these forums as well as the magazines and pretty much get from each what I expect to find...but I am regularly entertained, informed, and even amazed sometimes by the points of view in here.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    When there's no tennis on the tube, you can always come here and watch Merc1 and Dewey challenge any pair of Lexicans to a doubles match.

    I am always amazed at how much time some people here have to write all this stuff. I hardly have time to read it all between working and enjoying driving the greatest LPS (obviously IMHO...and I am an expert on giving my HOs) on the market--the magnificent Infiniti M35x! (with regards to Hpowders passionate eloquence)

    (from a semi-professional forum lurker)
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    "Passionate eloquence" That's it! there is more of it in here than you'll find in CR or MT.

    :cry: :mad: :surprise: :(:):D :P ;):blush: :confuse:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I have never seen anybody here actually proclaim himself an "expert" on any of these LPS's.
    He did refer to some of us as "self-declared experts." Nobody I know.

    Passionate eloquence. Yes!
  • laurasdadalaurasdada Member Posts: 4,684
    Actually, I believe that each poster can consider themself an "expert" on researching, driving, comparing and ultimately buying the arguably best car in its class! Class, of course , being defined in the eye of the beholder. I mean, the BMW 5 and Chevy Impala are both four door sedans. The Impala sells a lot more units than the 5. I guess more people have spoken, the Impala beats the 5!!! Poor Chris Bangle... With tongue firmly and, hopefully, obviously in cheek, Mr. Powders... ;)

    '21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I guess we are all passionate about one or another LPS's.
    That's what makes this thread successful.
    The fact that a few posters can actually express that passion with prose that borders on eloquent poetry is the icing on the cake for me.
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Like you once said...the P in LPS is the most important letter. but it might also stands for Passion

    Ralph Waldo Emerson once stated..."Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring."
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    This "passion" is one of the most significant (IMHO) reasons why many on this and other boards have such disdain for CR. Where is the passion in reliability statistics (yawn)? The most vociferous proponents of one brand or another are the ones who seem most moved by those things which are purely subjective. Take the number one MB fan here, this person loves MB styling. But we all know styling and beauty is in the eye of the beholder--no statistics. Take BMW fans, the feel of a car is so difficult to quantify, but these people will know it when they drive it. The numero uno Audi fan here is not alone in praising Audi interiors, but this again is mostly subjective (you could, of course, argue microns of thickness in leather upholstery...yawn). Many Lexus drivers value the pampering and comfort--like sinking into your favorite overstuffed chair at the local pub/club, surrounded by mahogany panelling and being greeted by name by the bartender and wait-staff (along with the Tanqueray and tonic). (Okay, I'm done with visual imagery).

    This is also why there are such passionate disagreements between certain Europhiles and Lexicans (the "hard and jarrings" versus the "soft and squishys"?--actually, that sounds denigrating to Lexus fans, it is not intended as such) They are all arguing from completely different viewpoints.

    Of course, there are some things we can all agree on--such as the Pontiac Aztec. No vehicle ever so well proved the adage: "Beauty may be only skin deep, but ugly goes to the bone."

    Edit: BTW, I personally do not have disdain for CR (as a subscriber). It is a valuable (to me) tool in certain decisions, but it is only a tool.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    BTW Merc, give this some thought. The only aspect of the V8 Vantage I truly like is the lone piece of “Bangle” scar tissue that runs across the side of the car from the vent.

    Well you know how I feel about Aston-Martins! There is nothing even remotely similar to Bangle's work present on any Aston-Martin design IMO. The DB9 may not be a bold and brash as these new BMWs, but it is a whole lot prettier and much more cohesive, IMO. That said I think the best looking new-style BMW is the 6-Series.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You have to get nav. with the RL.

    Oh sorry, forgot. That means every RL is more or less alike then huh. Well I guess you could get that A-spec package or whatever they call it to spice (uglify imo) it up a little.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't understand how that is important. I mean, the first thing I notice about a car is the model and the color. I can't easily see the seat type, the audio system type, whether the rear seats fold down, whether there are heaters in the seats, or what transmission it has. And I don't usually go inspecting cars that are on the road for these things. Sounds like a red herring to me.

    All I'm saying is that every other European car out there isn't equipped the same for those who may buy a used one down the road one day. No big deal. IMO it renders Acuras great used car buys because you know what you're going to be getting down the road, while on Euro cars each one is different. However when buying new you can get whatever you like on one of the Euros though you'd have to order/wait for it, but still. Both of these concepts have legs considering how all these brands sell a lot of cars.

    I mean it could be said that Acura throws all this stuff on as standard on a car like the RL to make up for other things it lacks. For a car that looks like a really nice Accord I think they should, but that is just my take.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Being "fully loaded" is part of the Acura value proposition. You get all the goodies, whether you desire them or not, for much less than the price of a comparably equipped (insert Euro-model of choice here). But, if the (insert any model here) is not the car you actually want to own/drive, then it matters not. If you want a BMW/MB/Audi/Caddy you pay the price of admission. Plus options, of course...

    Yeah I know. All true, but even with their value proposition they really can't get any traction beyond the TL's segment. I think that once you start reaching into upper 40 lower 50K territory people want they want and "value" starts to take on a different meaning. Here most folks have the money to buy what they want and the typical "value" question isn't so dominate as it is one level down. Value just doesn't mean features per dollar anymore the higher up in $$$ you go, IMO. If it did the RL would sell a lot better.

    M
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    I think value still plays a big role in this segment, evidenced by the blazing success of the Infiniti M. IMO, the RL is a car at odds with itself and the segment. It has a smashingly good looking interior that is among (if not) the best looking in the segment but an exterior that is at the bottom of the pack in most of this segment's buyers' opinions, evidenced by the low sales, and virtually devoid of any emotion.

    Again, with the interior, it is top tier, but it has the worst (usable) space in the segment and the smallest trunk. And the extreme few options that you can get are just "dealer add-ons." When you're spending this kind of money, you want stuff put on at the factory, not some hack at a dealership. It just increases the risk of damage to your vehicle and makes for unnecessary trips to the dealer and time without your car to have the parts installed. But I digress...

    The RL seems to fill a niche (that not many people want) of Personal Luxury Sedans. I'd call it a "tweener," but the TL is their tweener as it slots in between the BMW 3 and 5 along with their TSX that slots between the Mercedes C and E. They put the RL in a slot that was already filled. IMO, they should've slotted it between the 5 and 7/E and S. That formula was a smash hit for Infiniti.

    Success = (5 + 7) / (E + S) * (A6 + A8) - RL :P
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Blazing?
    Seems you have the Infiniti M confused with the BMW 5 series.
    Honest mistake.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Blazing as in hotly talked about and sales exponentially greater than the previous M. Before this one, hardly anybody even knew what an Infiniti M45 was, and those that did thought it was one of the ugliest cars made.
  • drtraveldrtravel Member Posts: 395
    Just reviewed posts 5294-5393 and noted who our major contributors are. The results:

    hpowders - 31
    jjacura - 10
    markcincinnati - 7 (tops for the most words)
    nebraskaguy - 6
    merc1 - 6
    tayl0rd - 5
    drtravel - 5
    designman - 4
    docnuken - 4
    everybody else - 22

    Thanks to hpowders for his entertainment and markcincinnati for his insights - what would this group be without them? Maybe the 9 of us could be put on a sitcom with Bob Newhart as our therapist because we all definitely need one.

    Let the spin begin...
  • lovemyclklovemyclk Member Posts: 351
    I'm probably taking this down the wrong road, but "value" is difficult to define for each individual buyer. Kinda like deciding between an entry-level Rolex (if there were such a thing) and the most expensive Seiko. The emotional buyer, given comparable pricing, might tilt toward having the more prestigious and better-engineered watch on his/her wrist. The rational buyer might see more "value" in the Seiko - more options such as multi-time zone chronograph, etc., where the Rolex simply tells time ;) When the smoke clears, both will show you the time.

    Your personal choices depend on how you are wired to see the world. IMO, I believe problems occur when our choices are proven to be poor due to various degrees of failure with our purchases - our bubbles are burst. The majority of BMW owners have wonderful ownership/driving experiences, as do MB, Audi, Lexus, etc. In my case, my BMW and former MB experiences have been 1st-class.

    Some (a statistically small sample) owners of each of these marques regret their purchases, although I will admit that MB of late has had to reign in their maintenance costs due to reliability issues. Lexus is the king of trouble-free motoring, but also excitement-free motoring in the minds of many :)

    One thing these marques can control, and I'm guessing that Lexus does a better job of this, is the total ownership experience. From top to bottom, it comes down to PEOPLE and their customer philosophies. No room for arrogance in today's LPS market, as that will send a buyer running to the competition faster than you can say "screw you".

    This value thing would be tough to get ten people in a room to agree upon, IMO.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well, thanks Drtravel for your kind words!
    I didn't realize I have posted so frequently!
    But that new dude, Everybody Else, comes in a close second with 22 posts!

    We don't need any therapists.
    We get emotional but there's nothing wrong with that.
    I know I have learned a heck of a lot and even want to test the A6 and RL to see where
    Markcincinnati and Jjacura are coming from.

    Edmunds Forums. Now that's entertainment!! :)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    . . .considering that it is ~ a year on the US market has been a "blazing" success.

    Audi of America (and Audi AG) are having their best year ever (compared to themselves.)

    And, my friend tells me that Audi has a marginally higher market share than BMW (in the Fatherland) -- I am still trying to find out if this is true.

    The BMW has been around "forever" in comparison with the Infiniti -- yet it (the M), based on growth rate, certainly seems to be coming out of nowhere and making BMW look over its shoulder to see who is gaining.

    Once again, another magazine, MT, in their COTY issue (just out) lauds the M (and somewhere in their prose says something to the effect it is "nipping at BMW's heels.")

    I would say that qualifies Infiniti to be proclaimed a blazing success -- when put in the context by our fellow poster tayl0rd.

    BMW, for most of us, may still be the holy grail for any one of several legitimate reasons -- but in some respects I have to agree with some of the "pro car writers" who (even while proclaiming the BMW as a great sports lux sedan) say BMW is in some respects resting (or driving) on its laurels.

    Competition surely improves the breed -- however, we are where we are today and everyone seems poised to be a legitimate threat to BMW.

    Of course, I am in no way counting BMW out -- just when they seem to have been leapfrogged, BMW virtually always fights back with another step forward distancing themselves from the competition.

    These days, however, it seems that BMW's recent attempts have only managed to pull ahead about a half step, as witnessed by the success of the M both in sales and in publicity.

    One last thing, the new RS4 was recently reviewed on the TV show "Top Gear" -- and the video editor basically says, "Audis have always been great cars, but in many ways were 'fairly terrible' when compared to similarly priced cars like the BMW M's." Then, after some 13 minutes of flogging the RS4 around France, he proclaims, "this car is not only better than the Bimmer it is faster around the track than the Cayman."

    Of course, BMW will soon fight back with its own M3 and we'll see if Audi retains its place as [temporary] King of the Hill (according to Top Gear, that is.)

    Like I said -- a very interesting time to be enjoying these LPS and PS cars, as they have all honed in on being better BMW's (not without some successes.)

    Play on. :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Sure. If you compare the 2006 M to the previous M. A tremendous improvement!
    One of the greatest strides forward of any automaker.

    Too bad Lexus couldn't improve upon the GS in a similar way.
    Proclaiming the 2006 GS as a '5 killer" has to be one of the stupidest statements made all year by an auto executive.
    Lexus should be embarrassed.
Sign In or Register to comment.