Luxury Performance Sedans

rcf8000 · January 2005

What's with the M's 11 cu ft trunk? That's a new low for its class. I guess they traded off trunk space for rear seat room. It wouldn't be so bad if the rear seat back folded down, but I guess it doesn't.

cruller001 · January 2005

Footie, are you referring to the old M45 or the new M45/35? And as far as features, is there any other vehicle in this group or price range that comes more feature laden. Check out the link posted by jrock, post #565 and read the features content of the new M45/35.

As far as styling, since it is subjective, all I will say is I believe the M45/35 grill is rather well integrated with the overall design, beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder. I think the RL looks clean and also well designed, however in terms of price it is asking quite a lot, whether both vehicles sell in the numbers expected remain to be seen. Nuff said about the new 5 series styling, it has been critiqued in every review.

jrock65 · January 2005

The M's trunk is 14.9 cu ft with the standard temp spare tire.

The optional full spare reduces the trunk size to 11.4 cu ft.

Interior volume is a class leading 105.2 cu ft.

merc1 · January 2005

"Having both size/room and sport is a very hard thing to do, and it's something that even BMW hasn't able to do either. Other than the 7, Bimmers are almost always the smallest/least spacious cars in their segment."

Interesting take. There is no evidence that BMW isn't able to do just that with a 5-Series, trouble is they like MB and Audi have to make a car that appeals to fickle Europeans so they have to size them accordingly, which means they've always come up smaller compared to similarly priced Japanese and American cars. The STS and the "Seville" before it have steadily shrunk for this very same reason, as did the new RL. How much larger is the M35/45 than the 5-Series on the outside? The previous Seville flopped in Europe, partly because of its size, hence the smaller model STS. I'm curious too about the A6 too, it seems to have grown much bigger this time around too? I wonder if that will matter in the European markets.

M

jrock65 · January 2005

They're probably able to, but they haven't. The larger a car gets, the less sporty it gets, all else being equal.

The M is longer and taller than the 5, and the 5 is a bit wider. Just a couple inches here and there.

Mainly, I like that the M has 4 more inches of combined legroom (81.5 in.) than the 5 (77.5 in.).

Not THAT big a deal, but anytime you get some more space it's a good thing, b/c to me space=luxury.

merc1 · January 2005

I agree, and I can't wait for the dealer here to get some M's in so I can have a look. The car has really impressed so far...I just need to see that styling on the road or at least outside of Detroit's Cobo hall. I think I read that the M45's back seat is bigger than the Q45's. If true the next Q has to grow or it's finished.

M

jrock65 · January 2005

You're right, the Q has 81.3 in combined legroom, and has 102.1 cu ft. interior space.

Poor Q, you really have to wonder who's gonna buy it when the M45 comes out.

The M45 is cheaper.

The M45 has more room.

The M45 is faster.

The M45 has more tech gizmos.

The M45 is a newer design.

I hear that they're replacing the "Q" designation with something else for the next model though.

kyfdx · January 2005

BMW and Mercedes.. while always more expensive.. are moving the "5" and the "M" so far up in price, and so quickly, that they are leaving a big hole to be filled...

Unfortunately for Infiniti, they are missing the hole... The cars look good at their base prices, but once you add on the options, they lose a lot of their advantage..

Acura is a little different... At least in marketing, their mid-size car is the TL.. and their top of the line model is the RL.. (marketing, not actual)...

So, the typical Honda/Acura buyer, when he looks at the RL, sees this massive discount vs. an LS430 or a Q45... Or... a step-up from the mid-sized cars for the same money..

I'm not proposing that the RL actually compares with those cars.. just that it competes with them... But, of course, it still has to deal with the fact that $50K is a small market..

I do think the new GS has a better chance.. just because of the greater impact of the Lexus name.

regards,

kyfdx

jrock65 · January 2005

- 2006 GS300 RWD -

Base: $42,900

Premium Package: $45,335

Rain Sensing Wipers

Adaptive Front Lighting System/Headlamp Cleaners

Moonroof

Power Rear Sunshade

Ventilated Front Seats

Intuitive Park Assist

Fully Loaded: $49,865

Mark Levinson Stereo

Navigation System

- 2006 GS300 AWD -

Base: $44,850

- 2006 GS430 -

Base: $51,125

Fully Loaded: $57,490

Mark Levinson Stereo

Navigation System

Rear Spoiler

Rain Sensing Wipers/Headlamp Cleaners

Moonroof

Power Rear Sunshade

Ventilated Front Seats

Intuitive park Assist

All prices do NOT include destination charge. The GS will not offer Lasercruise. Satellite radio seems to be an accessory.

bartalk2 · January 2005

Where did you get these GS numbers? Thanks for posting.

lexusguy · January 2005

The GS gets the LS430's PCS system, which is radar, rather than laser based. Automatic cruise control is thus radar based.

Nobody was buying the Q anyway.

bartalk2 · January 2005

If these GS300 prices are correct, then it is several thousand dollars more than the M35, comparably equipped. Chalk it up to the Lexus premium.

lexusguy · January 2005

Thats normal. Expect the next IS to cost more than the G35.

mariner7 · January 2005

Is it Lexus premium or Infiniti discount? In the MT comparo, M35 was by far the least expensive!

I don't think Infiniti, wanting to be performance oriented, needs a future Q at all. It's hard for a sedan that size to be about performance, that's why there's never M7. For BMW, 3 & 5 are much more important than 7. For MB & Lexus, wanting to be luxury leaders, it's different.

lexusguy · January 2005

Agree. For the "sport first" image that Infiniti is going for, a full size anything is pointless, as full size inevitably hurts a cars agility, and its just not what shoppers in that class really look for.

merc1 · January 2005

I can't wait to see what they do with the Q because all of sudden (see new M45) it doesn't fit in anymore. It seems to be from the I35, G20 era. The current Q45 isn't a terrible car as most make it out to be, but its styling and their marketing of it as some type of sports sedan are what killed it in the marketplace, imo. Only BMW gets away with the sport-first theme on a large luxury car. Mercedes (S55), Audi (S8) and Jaguar (XJR) don't really concetrate on their sporty "variants" nearly as much as they do the more pedestrian S430/500, XJ8, and A8/L models.

M

jlbl · January 2005

merc1, I feel you got it right. Streets and particularly parking spots are smaller on this side of the ocean than in the USA. Petrol (and therefore big big cars in terms of milesgallon) is here more expansive as well.

jlbl

lexusguy · January 2005

Infiniti needs a full size lux boat about as much as VW does.

kyfdx · January 2005

Oh.. I think they need one.. any one, besides the one they have now..

Compared to the Q45, the Phaeton starts to make sense....

lexusguy · January 2005

If I were Infiniti, I would've just buried it for 2005, rather than a pointless freshening and letting it sit in showrooms looking dated and pudgy compared to Infiniti's gleaming new metal for '06. Its like the Danny Baldwin of cars.

gold233790 · January 2005

Wow- that's pretty small. I am not going to be misled by the "optional full size spare". It's supposedly an option on the G35, yet I'd say 90% or more of the G's I looked at a few months back had the full size spare. All the NJ dealers told me it was extremely rare to find one without the full size that also was well equipped- why would the M be any different?

I think I will love the M, but at 11+ cu ft of trunk space they are going to lose some family customers. I could never justify that small of a trunk. My 530 is just large enough, and the Audi is absolutely cavernous.

kyfdx · January 2005

In a magazine this month.. The new Lexus GS.. It looks good, if rather generic.. I like it..

jrock65 · January 2005

If you want the 15 ft. trunk space, you could always order one with the temp spare tire. A longer wait than getting one off inventory, but it also means that you're getting a car configured exactly the way you want it in terms of exterior color, leather color, dash trim, and options.

laurasdada · January 2005

I saw the new GS in November at the New England Auto Show. On a cordoned off platform, look, but no touch. While I think it is an improvement over the still very odd looking model, it doesn't do anything for me. I agree, generic. It was also generating no interest from the crowds. (I saw the ad in C & D, too. It looked better in the ad...).

I look forward to comparo's with the (new) usual suspects.

I do, however, think my new Acura TL is one fine looking automobile. A Honda with some style (best since origianl Legend Coupe?)! Who'da thunk it?

merc1 · January 2005

What is interesting is how quiet Lexus is about the new GS. I saw that ad too and was shocked, I was starting to think the car didn't exist. For all of Lexus' marketing might I don't understand why they play coy with their middle car, which they need to be a hit.

M

lexusguy · January 2005

Perhaps they want to take everyone by surprise with their new engines, as that seems to be (if the Danny Clements statements at NADA are correct) the plan, GS350 and GS460 from the start. I'd like them to bring back the "something wicked this way comes" ads from 98.

merc1 · January 2005

I doubt it, ads are in print for the GS430 already. They will update the engines, but it will be for the 2007 model year I'm guessing. Mercedes is in a similar bind with their V8 engines because no new models (CLS, M-Class) will get a next-generation V8 until the S-Class debuts them. Lexus' LS will introduce their next generation V8.

M

lexusguy · February 2005

"Lexus Division General Manager Denny Clements announced at the NADA convention that just finished up the following official new redesign products and release dates:

GS 350/GS 460 Spring 2005

IS 250/IS 350 Fall 2005

ES 350 Spring 2006

GS 450h Spring 2006

LS 460 Fall 2006"

merc1 · February 2005

Well somewhere the lines are crossed because I've seen advertising for the GS430 and the GS300 has made the show rounds already. Doesn't make sense. If this is a stunt to drum up attention, everyone outside of Edmunds little band of enthusiasts will be confused. Not smart at all, imo. Guess this is one those classic cases of waiting to see what the carrier will bring to the dealership..lol!

M

lexusguy · February 2005

Yeah I'm very anxious to see that GS first drive.

gold233790 · February 2005

Agreed. My guess is the dealer would be less likely to be aggressive on pricing. If you were ordering at the release, probably not a big issue. But 6 months from now- at least here in the northeast where there's an infiniti dealer every 10 miles or so- taking one from dealer inventory would most likely yield the better price.

Anyway....my biggest concern with the M seems to have been quieted- that's whether the interior would be closer to the I and G, or whether they'd step it up to their higher models. One thing that always bothered me with Infiniti is the vast difference between their models regarding interior materials. You step into an Audi or Lexus- regardless of the model- and it's first class. Seems like the M will be comfortably high-end.

docnukem · February 2005

While I can't believe that Lexus would pull a switch like that at the last minute, it might explain why the recent MT comparo did not have the GS. If they do pull a switch, why wouldn't they have said anything at the recent NAIAS? That is close enough to a Spring release that the buzz would still be as big. As Infiniti is going to beat them to market by a few weeks, I would think Lexus would want to let prospective buyers with the itch (to buy) to know that the alternative from Lexus will have similar power.

As I am also looking at rear seat room, it won't make a huge difference to me. The M is larger (and I personally like the styling better, but that is IMHO). I am sure they will both drive very well...any differences will probably be imperceptible to someone like me who normally just drives 10 miles to work and back with the occasional day trip elsewhere.

Any buzz created by the switch in engines would also likely include some negative buzz as well (Headlines: "Lexus untruthful about new GS"?). I can't stand it when companies lead you to believe one thing and then do an about-face.

jrock65 · February 2005

Well, if they are bringing the GS350 at the last minute, they've fooled their own dealers as well. They've sent them all this info on the GS300.

lexusguy · February 2005

Pre-Ghosn Nissan and Infiniti interiors were reasonable quality but bland and uninspired. Once Ghosn took over, they got some direction, but materials quality dropped like a ton of bricks. Fortunately they are finally turning that around and giving Nissans some very good interiors. I think the M has the best interior of any US market Nissan product.

jrock65 · February 2005

http://pressroom.toyota.com/

GS base prices confirmed. No mention of GS350/460.

syswei · February 2005

I caught this on a lexus-specific forum (can't say where exactly because of Edmunds rules) and thought it interesting, from a longtime GS owner, posted 2 days ago: "I also went to the Houston Auto Show this weekend, and I have to say that the new GS didn't do anything for me or the two friends who went with me. The Infiniti M45, on the other hand, blew us all away...it's worth noting that there was no one..and I mean NO ONE...looking at the 3rd-gen GS at the auto show when I was there. Infiniti had two Ms, though...and both of them were swamped with folks."

syswei · February 2005

There was something in the press, I think Automotive News, recently, saying that Lexus was planning to adopt a BMW strategy of updating sheetmetal and engines alternately instead of all at once. This would fit with those theorizing on this forum that the upgraded engines for the GS will come in a future model year.

lovemyclk · February 2005

I like the new Acura TL and liken its design to a modern Japanese interpretation of the e39 5-Series that I own. Note the proportions and character-lines down the flanks. Nice job inside and out as a purposeful FWD sport sedan.

The TL is designed with purpose and has an original slant on the prior-gen 5-Series... a great place to start. The RL will be dated in no time, no matter how much technology is used on that platform.

Feel the TL to be the better-realized product from a design/price/performance perspective.

docnukem · February 2005

Here are links (posssible already posted) to compare the M and GS from the companies releases:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/presstxt/2006lexuskit/2006lexGS_s.pdf

http://www.nissannews.com/infiniti/2006vehicles/infiniti_m/specs.- shtml

lexusguy · February 2005

According to Lexus 6.8 sec projection, it seems like all this "GS300 cant possibly compete" talk may be a bit overblown. Thats very competitive with RL, 530i, A6, and STS. The 3.5L will get them up there with M35 and E350.

jrock65 · February 2005

Actually, with that kind of weight, the GS350 may out-accelerate the M35. Of course, a 3.5 will add weight over a 3.0, but it can't be 300 pounds more.

jrock65 · February 2005

So, if we equip the 3 cars as close as possible

- RL -

MSRP: $49,470

- M35 AWD (Journey and Tech) -

MSRP: $49,960

- GS300 AWD -

$44,850 (base)

$6,965 (premium + levinson + navi) *extrapolated from GS300 RWD

$400 (XM radio and installation) *estimate

$650 (destination) *current destination charge on 2005 GS300

MSRP: $52,865

----------------------------------------------------

Obviously, you can't equip the cars EXACTLY the same. Here is a preliminary list of exclusive or semi-exclusive (one or both of the other cars may not have it) features on each car:

RL: Onstar, XM traffic, Power rear sunshade

M35 AWD: Lasercruise, Rearview monitor, Cooling seats, Lane Departure Warning System

GS300 AWD: Power rear sunshade, Rearview monitor, Cooling seats, Passenger seat vertical power controls, Passenger seat memory, Knee airbags

I may have missed some things.

mariner7 · February 2005

I don't believe the weight difference of M35 and GS300 is 300 lbs, that's plain ridiculous. Look at the MT comparo, M35 weighs less than 100 lbs more than 530i, and BMW's usually are among the lightest cars in their segments.

And look at respective Nissans/Toys. Altima/Murano weigh less than Camry/Hlander. G35 weighs a little more than IS300, which is a boy racer.

So unless Toyota metallurgists just came up with a new compound of aluminum, I don't believe what's in the Lexus website. What's the weight of current GS & LS anyway?

gold233790 · February 2005

Ever takes those all-inclusive Journey and Tech packages apart I think it becomes a killer.

For example, the only things I personally would want in the car are Bluetooth (standard), NAV, and satellite radio. Lasercruise, Lane departure, etc- nice little features but don't like or need the upcharge. Put the M35AWD at $47,500 or so with those features, and you have what could be a clear winner.

cybersol · February 2005

"For example, the only things I personally would want in the car are Bluetooth (standard), NAV, and satellite radio.... Put the M35AWD at $47,500 or so with those features, and you have what could be a clear winner."

The NAV and satellite radio are available as stand-alone options at $2000 and $350 respectively. So that puts your ideal M at 45360 with delivery charge. About $2000 less than you wanted!

Enjoy, cybersol.

merc1 · February 2005

At those prices and spec, the M35 is the hands down winner in my book. Lexus' styling and Acura's lackluster performance (for 300hp) cancel them out especially since they aren't any cheaper than the M35.

M

ckelly14 · February 2005

We are a special group. My wife makes fun of me because I test drive a new car every week. However, my guess is that the majority of buyers in the 40K+ market are just as concerned with what the car says about them as they are with the car itself. That is the problem I have with the Acura and the Infinity models. The exterior styling does not say "I made it". Mercedes has recently been very successful with taking styling cues from their $70K cars and applying them to their entry models. How do you take the styling cues from a $20K car (Honda Accord) and apply it to a $48K car (Acura TL). It's insane!

Lexus, on the other hand, is acquiring the cache to compete on a nameplate only basis. However, the competition to the GS300 comes from within the company. In 1998, I purchased the ES300 over the GS300 when the price difference was less than $5K. Now, how does your basic Lexus buyer justify the $10K difference today? Are the things that are very appealing to us (rear wheel drive, "sportier" driving characteristic going to work with the average buyer? We'll have to see.

One tell-tale piece of information was the sales figures for November. The new Audi A6 basically lifted sales directly from the 5-series. Does anyone actually imagine that the M35/45, GS300 or RL will take a piece of the BMW/Audi/MB market share? Unfortunately, I believe that Acura, Infiniti and Lexus continue to fight over what is essentially a small, niche market.

lexusguy · February 2005

"Does anyone actually imagine that the M35/45, GS300 or RL will take a piece of the BMW/Audi/MB market share?"

BMW and Audi sales are flat, and Mercedes sales are way down. Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus are all up. So I'm going to say, yes.

ckelly14 · February 2005

You may be right, and I'm anxious to see what happens when M35 and GS come to the market. However, I would be cautious about interpreting what's going on across the board for what's happening in this segment. Again, I think that the TL vs. 3-series vs. c-class buyer is different from the RL vs. 5-series vs. E-class buyer. Although the E-class is floundering and the RL is doing great, the 5-series and the A6 have all dramatically increased sales vs. 2004. I'm surprised at this given how the styling of the new 5 series has been received.

The numbers:

Car Jan 04 Jan 05

5-series 2675 3278

A6 815 1209

E-series 3866 2725

RL 489 1371

GS 690 434

M45 205 90

Now, you can interpret statistics any way you wish. We'll see what happens with the intro of the new M35/45 and GS. Although BMW and Audi will take a hit, my guess is that the biggest loser in March will be Acura.

merc1 · February 2005

One month doesn't indicate anything definite, especially Jan which is traditionally a slow month for luxury cars sales anyway. Mercedes and BMW both posted gains for the year 2004 compared to 2003, only Audi dropped. Usually only hot models post any gains for Jan, like the RL for Acura and SLK for Mercedes, the rest are usually flat or decrease. Even Lexus had drops across the board for their cars in Jan.

The new Infiniti M and Lexus GS won't start to impact sales until April-May, providing they both go on sale in March.

M

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