Luxury Performance Sedans

dewey · February 2006

Its an awful lot of money for a TL with AWD.

Excellent description. Except an AWD TL would be able to out-handle the larger RL. A reasonably priced AWD TL would be the prescription for double digit growth sales at Acura.

So what is the solution for the RL? How about a new platform that is not derived from the Accord. How about a RWD RL? How about a V8 RL? And if not a V8 RL then a powerful V6 hybrid RL. Unfortunately Honda is not pondering such alternatives and RL looks like it will share the same neglected fate as the Infiniti Q.

garyh1 · February 2006

In addition to your suggestion of a better engine (either V8 or hybrid 6), how about a "stretch" version to improve the back seat. Then it could at least compete with the M, and better distinguish itself from the TL. I have heard of a lot of people who rejected the RL for a family car based on the cramped rear area (of course, this complaint applies to the GS as well). As Acura's "flagship" sedan, IMO that's giving up too much of the market.

nebraskaguy · February 2006

Its an awful lot of money for a TL with AWD.

You may not like the RL, but it most certainly is not a TL with AWD. There is no comparison between the two. Whether the RL is worth that much more money is up for discussion, but it is a far nicer car than the TL.

hpowders · February 2006

True Tagman!
The highest compliment paid to Bangle is the design of the 2007 LS!

hpowders · February 2006

I was exaggerating a bit for effect, Dewey!
I realize my poetic license should be suspended.

You can sentence me to a grilling by Oprah.....

pat · February 2006

What I need to know is what BMW model costs $525,000? :confuse: Can we get some pics?

:P

hpowders · February 2006

That BMW must have been signed by Chris Bangle himself to justify the $525k price tag.

Nothing like accuracy in journalism, I always say.

Regardless of how much the BMW actually cost, it's still a great story.

You just can't make this stuff up!

Thanks for sharing it, Dewey. It made my day!

markcincinnati · February 2006

Over 80% of the A6's sold are V6's, at the same "class point" it is possible to spend ~$60K for a 530 series BMW and THAT doesn't have a V8. Most of the STS's (but I do not know the percentages on this one) are V6's, the Infiniti dealer here says the M35 M35X (especially the X) is the biggest seller.

And so on.

While I understand the journalists need for an LPS car that at least offers a V8, the only ones that sell for prices that seem to keep the buyer's attentions are the A6's and the STS.

I have not seen a GS with a V8 on the highway, but have seen several M45's -- most of the Mercedes E's are 6's, by far.

At one point, I read a memo that said Audi of America expected 90% of the new A6's to be sold as 3.2's, apparently is has been somewhat higher than that (I don't know.)

A 290HP or whatever it was devalued to Acura RL doesn't need a V8 to sell over 1,500 units a month is my point.

It may need to be a bit bigger, I dunno.

And, if the price HAS dropped or the deals improved, this would seem to be a reason for sales to be on the incline not decline.

With AWD growing in popularity (take the 5 series alone as an example), what would an RWD RL offer really? The customers seem to be picking up the AWD cars like "hotcakes" (again at least in our neck of the woods.)

The Acura looking too much like the Accord COULD be a reason. But the RL is one seriously nice car and if, as you say, is dropping in price, ought to be a contender.

There must be something else afoot here.

Who knows?

Obviously, not I.

Now who's cockeyed idea was it to bring the A6 3.2 to the US market for an MSRP of $1,800 less in front wheel drive?

My dealer won't even stock it -- says it hurts the image.

Heck, other than the odd A4 convertible, they don't carry anything other than quattros.

Curious, what's happening to Acura. Could it be another Phaeton? Gasp! :confuse:

lexusguy · February 2006

It's nicer, yes, but $12K+ nicer? The TL is better looking, just as fast, has just about all of the technology, (integrated into a much more attractive center stack) and is basically the same size.

I also hope that Acura has the sense to not let this RL sit for another decade with no major changes.

shipo · February 2006

My gut guess is that when presented with a "FWD or AWD" choice, most folks in the LPS arena will almost certainly opt for AWD. That having been said, when presented with a "RWD or AWD" option, many folks in this arena will choose RWD over AWD, me included.

My personal prejudice/bias/irrational belief (PBIB) is that FWD is not viable in the LPS market, and as such, offering the likes of a FWD A6 is silly. On the other hand, said PBIB leads me to prefer RWD over AWD, even if all else was equal (i.e. weight, weight distribution, cost and suspension options), meaning that RWD is a viable option to AWD for these types of cars.

Best Regards,
Shipo

drtravel · February 2006

And in the prior posting of Jan '06 sales, the STS's numbers were missing. Are they now known?

1,668 units sold in January

drtravel · February 2006

Total Car Sales
BMW - 15,455
Cadillac - 11,082
Lexus - 10,979
Acura - 10,140
M-B - 9,728
Audi - 6,084
Infiniti - 5,883

Total Truck Sales
Lexus - 8,679
Acura - 3,841
BMW - 3,819
Cadillac - 3,651
M-B - 2,741
Infiniti - 2,174
Audi - Q7 coming...

Total Vehicle Sales
Lexus - 19,658
BMW - 19,274
Cadillac - 14,733
Acura - 13,981
M-B - 12,469
Infiniti - 8,713
Audi - 6,084

For comparison, Honda sold 22,397 Accords last month

nebraskaguy · February 2006

It's nicer, yes, but $12K+ nicer? The TL is better looking, just as fast, has just about all of the technology, (integrated into a much more attractive center stack) and is basically the same size.

I've driven my RL since Oct 2004 and have ridden extensively in a friend's TL. For me, there's no doubt the RL is $12K nicer. The RL is quieter, rides nicer, has a better NAV, and definitely feels more luxurious, and, of course, has AWD. It's all subjective, of course, but I would never consider a TL over my RL.

habitat1 · February 2006

"You may not like the RL, but it most certainly is not a TL with AWD. There is no comparison between the two. Whether the RL is worth that much more money is up for discussion, but it is a far nicer car than the TL."

What, pray tell, is "far nicer" about the RL than the TL? I had an RL loaner for 7 days last spring after a red light runner removed the front bumper of my TL 6-speed. So I got ample time behind the wheel.

Aesthetics: My assessment is that the RL has a very attractive interior - but so does the TL. I found very nominal differences in material quality. The amenities are virtually identical. The traffic based navigation was actually annoyingly inacurate in the Washington DC area, missing Beltway backups, etc.

Performance: Dissapointing, based upon my preferences. The "Super Handling" AWD wasn't. The RL is excessively heavy at 4,000 lbs and felt like it. Not only did it fall short of a BMW 5 series in driving dynamics, but was neither as nimble handling nor as quick as my FWD TL 6-speed. I will concede that the RL is quieter and provides a more "insulated" cabin, but unfortunately at the expense of being a car I could never label as "fun to drive". It has more in common with a Toyota Avalon than a 550i 6-speed on that front.

I have been reprimanded by others who claim that I am misguided to think the RL was intended to appeal to "driving enthusiasts". But I believe that the RL offers neither adequate performance nor significantly increased luxury over the TL to be a market success. And the sales numbers seem to back me up.

tagman · February 2006

Curious, what's happening to Acura.

mark - one thing that will be happening over the course of the next years is that Honda/Acura made an announcement very recently that as ALL new Acura models are released moving forward, they will be UNIQUE to Acura, and NOT derivatives of other Honda models. That says a LOT . . . as it will allow for Acura to independently soar further along . . . to where, though, will be seen!
TagMan

warthog · February 2006

Bangle curves? What Bangle curves? The revulsion is to the Bangle angles. And the stupid eyebrows. And the Bangle Butt.

hpowders · February 2006

What revulsion? BMW 5 sales are going through the roof!
They are up 42.8% since January 2005.
A ringing endorsement of those exotic Egyptian goddess-like eyes and that incredibly aggressive and bold innovative style.

The votes are in and the folks in the USA have voted YES for Chris Bangle.

Sales of the 5 series have far outstripped those of the 3 series since January 2005.
When is the last time that happened?

cdnpinhead · February 2006

Perhaps, in part.

The other part may be pent-up demand for an AWD BMW. Go figure -- I wouldn't have one on a bet. Clearly many others feel (or, one hopes, think) differently.

hpowders · February 2006

I don't buy it. The 3 series has been available in AWD yet the 5 series is way ahead of the 3 series in sales for the last 12 months:
42.8% vs. 21.5%.
This is unheard of!!!
The 3 has always been their biggest mover.

dewey · February 2006

What I need to know is what BMW model costs $525,000? Can we get some pics?

None. I guess he needed big pockets for the spare change :confuse:

dewey · February 2006

don't buy it. The 3 series has been available in AWD yet the 5 series is way ahead of the 3 series in sales for the last 12 months

Overall the sales of the 3 series is far higher than the 5 series.

The reason sales growth compared to last January is higher for the 5 series than the 3 series is because:

1) Last January there was no such thing as a 5 series xi. Last January there was such a thing as a 3 series xi.

2) Last year there was no such thing as a 5 series Touring. Last year there was such a thing as a 3 series touring.

If you compare the January sales of the 06 550i, 530i and 525i to the January sales of the 05 545i, 530i and 525i models then you will notice that sales have actually dropped for all three of these RWD models.

But overall you are correct the sales of the 5 series has been terrific.

merc1 · February 2006

You won't have to buy only the BMW to get the Bangled look . . . the way it's revealing itself even on the new MB's and Lexus.

Going to have to disagree here. I don't know about Lexus, but Mercedes isn't following Bangle in the least. The rear of the S-Class is from the Maybach and the Maybach concept was shown way back in 1997 - long before anyone named Bangle ever designed a BMW and years before the 2002 7-Series (the car that started it all) hit the road. The wheel arches on the S-Class clearly aren't from the house of Bangle either.

M

tagman · February 2006

When I recently saw a spy photo of the upcoming E-Class, it prompted me to think of new MB's, as well as new Lexus models, as having Bangle influence or style. I'll wait to see the official E-Class before I make a final determination on this, and I take it that you agree with me that new Lexus models show Bangle influence. The wheel arches on the new S are clearly Mercedes. There is no disagreement on this.

merc1 · February 2006

Yeah I would wait to see what the next E actually looks like since it is at least 3-4 years off.

M

hpowders · February 2006

"Overall, the sales of the 3 series is far higher than the 5 series."

Yeah and overall we're all dead.

I gave you the most recent one year period of stats in the USA, which show the 5 series outselling the 3 series by double (42.8% vs 21.5%).

nebraskaguy · February 2006

Let's see, you drove an RL loaner for seven days, I've driven my RL for over 15 months...... I would never pretend to be a driving enthusiast, so maybe that's the difference. All I can say is I've been totally satisfied with my RL and believe it was well worth the extra money over the TL.

hpowders · February 2006

how CR raves about the TL, but is quite lukewarm on the RL.

lexusguy · February 2006

Well, CR lumps the LPS and full size lux cars into the same category, so the RL has to take a backseat to cars that it would not normally be compared to, such as the LS and S-class, at least in CR's book. The RL did manage to pick up a 10 best award, but unlike the TSX, I dont think it will be able to pull that off again.

hpowders · February 2006

I notice in the latest issue of CR, the TL is listed at the top of the "Family Sedans, over $25,000" ratings.
Lumping it in with the Camry, Avalon and the Accord?
Doesn't seem right.

Previously, the RL was listed in 9th place in the "Luxury Sedans" category.

garyh1 · February 2006

I gave you the most recent one year period of stats in the USA, which show the 5 series outselling the 3 series by double (42.8% vs 21.5%).

Howard, hopefully you know the difference between a percentage increase and total sales. The 5 series does not "outsell" the 3 series by double; it's actually the other way around. In 2005, BMW sold 106,950 3s and 52,722 5s.

BMW news release

We all know you love your 5, but that doesn't change the facts.

kyfdx · February 2006

I think you can also attribute the smaller gain in sales for the 3-series to that fact that the coupes and convertibles are still the previous generation... Once they come out with the E90 version of the coupes, sales should really take off..

aas5 · February 2006

wait till he gets an infiniti after his lease is up, we'll be hearing all about carlos ghosn and how infiniti will be taking over the world.

I for one don't like the new bmw designs and think the previous ones looked elegant and classy while also looking sporty, especially 540 and M. The new designs are not bad but anyone claiming that they are the best the world currently has to offer is seriously mistaken.

lexusguy · February 2006

Hmm. According to the website, CR's new top rated family car is the Passat 3.6, just edging out their former favorite the Accord Hybrid.

They rank the TL at the top of the "upscale sedan" entry lux category.

dewey · February 2006

It appears CR loves Front Wheel Drive Performance Vehicles.

That in itself tells me a lot about the credibility of CR opinion.

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .I know some folks swear by CR, and I DON'T swear at them. But I call them a "data point" -- a data point that I would find hard pressed could move me to or not to.

They would have to write something so "over the top" (which would probably not have the desired effect) to make me give their comments much merit.

To make the point:

I wouldn't seek CR's advice on my choice of a date or mate; and, while I hardly think of a car as a date or mate, it still seems (despite or because of the tens of thousands -- or more -- posts here) that our car purchases are more akin to our choice of friends and spouses than our selection of washing machines, microwaves and room air-conditioners.

Buying cars, driving cars, owning cars, talking about cars, almost everything under the sun about cars is emotional, opinionated, passionate.

A circle with a half-moon in it or a dot in the middle is, IMHO, virtually useless data.

It reminds me of the "joke or story or parable or what ever" where the guy says "where am I?" And the reply is, "you are at such and such latitude and longitude at this altitude above sea level."

Clearly the person knew the precise location on the planet earth in answer to the question -- but the information was practically meaningless (PM).

To me: CR = PM.

Of course that is just my opinion, which, too is PM. :shades:

hpowders · February 2006

In the latest issue of CR, the TL is listed as the number one family car over $25k ( although not tested this month) with the Passat 3.6, number two.

There is an obvious discrepancy between the magazine and the website.

In their latest test, the VW Passat 3.6 finished number one and the rest were: the Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan, Hyundai Sonata, Chevy Impala and Dodge Charger. (from second to last place).

Even though the Passat finished first, some disturbing comments:
"The interior and ride comfort have slightly diminished."
"The V6 can be hesitant at takeoff from a rolling stop and sometimes bangs between gears."
"It rides comfortably but isn't as isolated from the road as its predecessor."
"The brake pedal felt spongy."
"Some dash trim does not fit well."
And so on.
Not exactly an inspiring review.
Sounds like a winner by default.

hpowders · February 2006

Yup! No excuse on that one. Wrote it too early, I guess!

hpowders · February 2006

Whoa! I don't believe I ever said that the Bangle 5 is the best design in the world.

There are many, many cars I lust for that top the 5's design by far, IMO-starting with the 911 Carrera 4 2-door coupe.
I get palpitations thinking about that one!

I am limiting myself to a certain price category when I comment on the 5.

dewey · February 2006

How about JD Power's approach? How credible is their approach? Depending on JD Powers for car buying info is like depending on 60 Minutes for objective Audi information(if you were not beyond the age of infancy in the 1980s then you may not know what I am talking about)

Below are paragraphs of the article I linked below:

1)A few years ago Hummer and MINI protested because their vehicles received low IQS scores because of poor fuel economy and awful cupholders, respectively. These weren't things as the dealer could fix, as the were endemic to the vehicles' designs. But because consumsers reported them as problems, J.D. Power counted them.

Some consumers would like all sources of dissatisfaction to count. Others would only want to know the rate of repairable issues. With J.D. Power's scores there's no way to separate the two. Ultimately, it's not clear what is being measured.

2)Like Consumer Reports', J.D. Power on its consumer site rates models on a five-point scale. (Model-level absolute numbers with a few exceptions are reserved for the manufacturers.) Their one to five dot ratings appear simple to understand, but they conceal far more than the convey. If one vehicle has a three dot rating, and another has a five dot rating, what will this really mean in terms of the number of trips to the shop and the number of days spent there?.

3)The VDS used to survey consumers after five years of ownership, but a couple of years ago this was changed to three years to better suit manufacturers' needs. Once a vehicle design is more than three years old manufacturers rarely update it, so reliability information on older vehicles is of no use to them.

4)One issue with this approach is that people often associate the IQS numbers with reliability, when it is more a measure of assembly quality.

JD Powers Weaknesses

hpowders · February 2006

I joined True Delta. Waiting for them to include the 5 series in their reliability studies.

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .at age 54 (and my wife is, shall we say somewhat "younger") we have had ONE unreliable car (we have had cars we didn't like as well as others, etc, but the thread here seems to be "buying based on reliability or durability ratings from CR or JDP" or something akin to that.)

That unreliable car: A new 1976 Plymouth Volare 318 V8 with at the time every possible do dad Chryco had on their option sheet.

The car rusted so completely, had every power operated gizmo on it go south and on and on, it is hard to characterize how bad it was.

My wife's GTO (when I met her -- and it had the white ball Hurst Shifter) was a gas hog and had weak brakes, but the car was a BLAST.

The Chevette we had in college wasn't much fun but it ran fine, and so on.

I have, consequently, little "fear" of any car in that regard.

I buy the car that seems the "most rewarding" to drive.

What I am concluding is that most rewarding must also include reliability scores that probably have as much validity and influence as my personal experiences with cars should to you.

The IQ scores noted above (cupholders that I don't like are counted? -- what if I don't like the color?) are about as useful [to me] as knowing my latitude and longitude and feet above sea level.

We're buying $50,000+ cars here -- and while we certainly don't want them to fall apart (like the Volare), cars are substantially more reliable now than they ever have been (it's in all the papers.) :surprise:

I want to know what "you guys" think about the content, performance, looks, fun factors, and stories YOU tell -- far more than I give a "tinker's cuss" about JD Power or CR.

Maybe I need to read some of that stuff more.

Nahhh, it was sumptin' I et. :shades:

bartalk3 · February 2006

Mark,

You mentioned your one unreliable car--the rust bucket '76 Plymouth Volare. They were the worst! Its twin was the Dodge Aspen, also the world's worst rust bucket. Now it seems Dodge is ressurecting the name Aspen to stick on some car! Now I ask you, why would any auto exec in his right mind want to remind buyers of that horrible Dodge Aspen of yore? Do these guys have a clue? No wonder the U.S. industry is going under. It just completely baffles me. And these guys are paid millions for these kinds of mistakes!

lexusguy · February 2006

Yeah I read that on the web road test of the car. Some of the mags have said similar things about the interior quality of the A4 going down when compared to the previous A4 2.8. VW has to try and make money somewhere.

dhamilton · February 2006

Everyones trying to make some money including Lexus trying to sell an Avalon that parks itself :P

newcarman · February 2006

Good day people. Im interested in buying the GS 300 but not sure its worth to spring for the extra 3K for AWD.

What id like to know is whoever owns a 300 rwd can you kindly let me know how it handles in the snow??

Is it passable in snow?? Does it get stuck or is it ok.

Thanks.

pat · February 2006

Hi - a better place to ask that would be in the dedicated Lexus GS 300/GS 430 - 2006+ discussion. Check it out.

markcincinnati · February 2006

However, NOTE WELL: China's stats.

Source Audi AG:

Audi sold more than 69,400 vehicles worldwide in January 2006, an increase of 26.7 percent on the same month of last year (January 2005: 54,825).

We are delighted with this positive start to 2006. This result is an ideal basis for the global launch of the new Audi Q7, beginning on 10 March in Central Europe, stated Ralph Weyler, Member of the AUDI AG Board of Management for Marketing and Sales. We will introduce a whole range of attractive new models this year, putting us on course for the eleventh record year in succession.

Around 51,100 vehicles were handed over to their new owners in Europe (up 17.0 percent, 43,699)*. Of this total, 16,300 were sold in Germany (up 11.2 percent, 14,670). The European markets with the highest growth rates were France with 3,600 (up 30.3 percent, 2,736), Great Britain with 7,800 (up 13.4 percent, 6,905) and Italy with 4,800 vehicles sold (up 20.2 percent, 3,974). Sales in North America rose by 21.5 percent to 6,900 vehicles (5,659). 6,084 of these vehicles were handed over to customers in the USA (up 19.8 percent, 5,077). Business in Asia/Pacific was also highly successful, with 8,600 vehicles sold in this region (up 153.6 percent, 3,380). Of this total, 6,300 were purchased by customers in China (up 238.4 percent, 1,848).

*) Growth and last years figures in brackets

lexusguy · February 2006

Interesting, because VW is losing sales in China after being the leader for years.

dewey · February 2006

Audi sales have been booming for years while VW sales have been declining for years. This is a "Tale of Two Marques" despite the fact that both are owned by the same company.

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .BMW and Mercedes are "up too" aren't they?

Acura is down -- or is it?

Lexus is ?

Infiniti is ?

By these ?'s I mean in ref to the Audi news article, to ask the "worldwide" sales changes.

I am 99% certain BMW like Audi is up (more or less is not the point, "up" is the point.)

I thought the same was true of Mercedes (worldwide.)

Man o man, a new Passat is $299 a month no drive off costs and VW's is in the dumper?

Perhaps VW has become irrelevant -- despite Infiniti's fans declaration that Inifiti will make Audi, BMW and Mercedes irrelevant, it seems the Europeans (or at least the Germans) are on ein roll! :shades:

Achtung Baby!

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