Luxury Performance Sedans

dhamilton · February 2006

I don't think Acura is down. I just read that they were up, but I don't recall where. The RL has been a disappointment for sure, but I think Acura/Honda is still very profitable.
It's funny how most of the conversations as far as the car companies go are either up or down depending on perspective from a lot of posters. Especially over in the "high end luxury marquee" thread where it is back and forth on who is selling the most blah,blahblah. I think the competition is clearly improving every ones personal favorite brand. I know I agree with Mark that Audi needs to improve on weight and balance issues. At the same time I'm going to pretty much like whatever they and Acura come out with due to the fact that they're products speak to me on an emotional,or more practical level.
Yes I am biased. Lexus would have to knock my socks off with something in order for me to look they're way. Just how it is and at least I can admit it.

aflc · February 2006

It looks like car owners in Germany seem to have a slightly different veiwpoint about their cars than those in the US.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/02/04/209442.html

I think that if more people gave Audi a little test drive they would see what others in the rest of the world seem to really enjoy.

dewey · February 2006

These future A4 pics and design drawings are from the German car magazine called Autobild. A torquey manual TDI Avant version will definitely get my attention. I read that at least in Canada Audi intends to introduce diesels. I am looking forward to them.

shipo · February 2006

Oh geez... And I thought the decision to get an A3 was going to be easy. NOT! If this is the car that hits the streets, then I'm afraid that the A3 just ain't gonna happen. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

tagman · February 2006

Dewey -
Looks like you guys in Canada can get pretty lucky once in a while! WOW!
TagMan

dewey · February 2006

Love the A3. BUT IMHO no 2.0 Quattros and no manual 3.2's are deal breakers

At least that is my excuse for waiting on patiently for the new A4.

dewey · February 2006

The beauty of a diesel is that you can buy a fuel efficient vehicle that is actually a sport sedan. Versus buying the hybrid versions of fuel efficiency that are anti-sport sedans.

billyperks1 · February 2006

This will definitly be added to MY waiting list along with the GS 350 and the new generation of Acura TL.

hpowders · February 2006

if Audi doesn't get its quality control act together.

markcincinnati · February 2006

With Len Hunt as my witness, the quality of both my wife's X3 and my A6 (and the allroad that preceded it) have been non-issues.

Even with the brake rotor problems of the previous A6's and the issues with the A8, these cars have never been so bad in this regard as to slow down sales (to us.)

The fact that Audi and BMW seem to be on yet another roll, is testimony that for the time being QC isn't much of an issue these days.

I would steer anyone to either BMW or Audi based on what I have seen over the past few years -- and reportedly it just keeps getting better all the time.

I'd bet both Audi and BMW are going to continue to succeed in the marketplace.

Audis recent GLOBAL sales are in some part due to the quality of the cars -- as are, I would assume, BMW's.

The Q7, gas hoginess and all, will probably do wonders for Audi. The new X5 will certainly be a boost to BMW as will the upgraded X3 and the "improvements" in the 5 series, too.

It is a great time in German car history, from my warped point of view.

I hope the Germans send thank you letters to Infiniti, Lexus and even Acura for their small part in aiding and abetting the German's comeback.

If the American car companies don't thank the Japanese, they need to rewind the past 20 years and see that without the Japanese they would be dead.

Maybe the Japanese will need to thank the Germans in a couple of years for making their cars more dynamic and fun to drive all the while retaining their reliability.

Can't wait for 2010!

marleybarr · February 2006

Do you think Audi build quality will ever get to the point where YOU would drive (and buy) out of warranty?

I'm at that point now on my 2000 A6 2.7T w/ 87000 miles. Virtually the only extended service plan available for this car(because of the year/miles/turbo design) costs $3,080.00 and is good for 3 years/36,000 miles on the drivetrain only.

hpowders · February 2006

If Audi quality control improves over the next 2 years, I will seriously consider one.

I have no problems with their exteriors or interiors and with IDrive experience, I relish the challenge of Audi's complicated controller.

But they do have to restore confidence.

rich545 · February 2006

How do we know with a brand new design like the A6 that they haven't gotten their QC act together? My wife's A6 Avant is simply a great car. I had to force her to test drive one because of bad press that Audi got in the past, but when she finally did she fell in love with the A6. I've never seen her so excited about a car before. And it isn't as if she drove Hondas before. She was a dedicated MB girl. I'd be surprised if her A6 was any less realiable than my 545 (which has been great as well).

mastertech3 · February 2006

New here, Master Audi Porshe Tech , neeeds good local for info and parts can you help me get started Thanks in advance and may I be of service?? Charlie
htwheelcharlie@yahoo.com

mastertech3 · February 2006

I am an Audi AG Master tech I do know 1980 through 1992 very well. I have my own project and is a 1986 5000CS Turbo with 50k on it. I want to make massive HP. I have to chain down the engine now to keep Alternators on it. I am looking for many and all types of Hipo :confuse: body,panels/Engine/wastegate and very much needed brake info as to whats best now. I also want to add a seperate Injector and up the boost. ALL inside help will be greatly honoured. I also add myself to your list of Master techs that well "I really know Audi" Love to help Charlie

dewey · February 2006

If Audi quality control improves over the next 2 years, I will seriously consider one.

Hpowders,

did you honestly buy your BMW 545i for its reliability? Was your purchase decision not based upon test drives at various dealerships? Or was it because you studiously sat in your study and scrutinized all those JD Power and CR stats?

All I can say for myself is that if the new Audi A4 drives as good as it looks then I will become oblivious of any CR or JD Power statistic.

esf · February 2006

We're going get this gorgeous A4 too, dewey.

Remember how A4s are sold as the same car in all their markets?

Unless you mean that Canada is lucky to get a torquey diesel Avant. Audi is considering selling its diesel lineup here.

esf · February 2006

I feel terrible for you...

I too had a '00 A6 2.7T, although it was on a 5 year lease.

It had 77000 miles on it when I traded it for my fabulous S4 Cabriolet last April.

I would recommend getting one when you're ready! (If you stay true to Audi)

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .would I want without a warranty. Today, they all are just breathtakingly expensive to contemplate repairing out of warranty.

gohorns1 · February 2006

Mark,
You often report that you have not had problems with the Audi's and BMW's that you have owned/leased and thus would recommend them to anyone. The problem is, for folks like me who are considering their first purchase of one of these brands, I know a number of folks who have had significant problems. This relates to the small sample size. I realize all car makers have lemons. But when I am considering a purchase (and this would certainly be a sizeable one)I do look at the general track record. I can't afford the time to be running back and forth to a dealer, no matter how nice and professional they are. So while your experience has been very positive (and I hope you knock on wood each time you write this!)I am reluctant to jump in with one of these at this time. I am not saying I wouldn't. If I were to decide that either of these had the best overall package (style, ride and value) then I would consider it, but I would be a tad skittish (?sp). And if I did have recurrent problems, it would likely annoy me more than if I had a problems with a car with a better quality history (that is, I should have known better).
This is actually one of the main factors that has delayed my moving into the LPS world. I have an expensive Camry (read that as a baby Lexus). It has been trouble free. I would like to move up, but it is hard to pass on the reliability. I wish Lexus had made the GS a true LPS but alas, well we all know the rest. I am primarily considering the M45 and the 550 and when life slows down I need to test drive these again. But the 550 would really need to knock my socks off given the price difference and the quality history. We shall see............

hpowders · February 2006

Yes, I did.
Before the 545, I had a 1993 and then a 2002 325i and they have been trouble-free.
12 years of trouble-free BMW's plus the 545 test drives.

I didn't feel I was taking a big risk here.
BMW's have improved their quality control. For what its worth, CR has even noticed it.

With Audi, I'm not so sure.
I will be watching over the next 2 years to see if Audi is headed in the right direction.

markcincinnati · February 2006

I have had only minor [Audi, BMW, VW] problems since my first Audi in 1977. I gather some folks are not satisfied with the level of reliability that have been associated with Audis, BMW's and Mercedes over some not too distant past time frame.

I had two Audi A6 4.2's that had between them 9 sets of brake rotors. The MY's were 2000 and 2001. I had an On*star problem with my 2003 allroad and my wife had multiple battery failures in her TT key fobs (she had three TT's in a row and they -- the allroad and the TT's -- were otherwise without trouble.)

We had some trepidation with the 2005 BMW X3, but at 14,500+ miles it has needed two sets of wiper blades and one pint of oil. My 2005 A6 has had in total four advanced key pushbuttons, one set of wiper blades and two oil changes at less than 14,000 miles. The first three pushbuttons failed one, two, three months in a row. The fourth button has been fine for four months.

The Digital Signal Processing surround sound mode in my Premium Bose System in my A6 will not retain the surround mode "permanently" -- i.e., it requires resetting every few days. It does not rise to inconvenient.

The small sample population you may discover here is NOT unimportant. However, I am not certain there is enough information here to make a decision.

Had I personally been burned or even seriously singed, I might be able to duly caution and warn you.

Other than the items noted above, which may or may not be considered unacceptable to you, I would repeat this acquisition.

However, as I have shared, I did come "this close" to the new Infiniti M35X until Audi and my dealer leveled the price playing field. Moreover, now that BMW has a 5 series that offers both AWD and a manual transmission, it would also be a strong contender for my business.

The LPS world seems to have been and MAY still be a world that is full of $50,000+ cars that have lots of gizmos that are probably expensive to repair out of warranty and perhaps even somewhat more likely to require repair.

I look at the dashboard of my A6 and wonder what the cost of the nav/mmi screen would be should it go south out of warranty. When bored in traffic I counted 82 knobs, dials, switches and gauges that do things, control things etc -- I imagine they individually or collectively would be, as I am prone to say, "breathtakingly expensive" to repair or replace out of warranty.

If, for whatever reason, you place a premium upon reliability and/or durability, the word here on edmunds, is that you will probably not be comfortable with an American or European brand.

I suspect, too, however, there are several (many perhaps) Audi, BMW and Mercedes owners who have had multiple representatives of their brand and not considered them to be reliability nightmares.

I have rented many Japanese cars. I have test driven ONLY the Infiniti M35X extensively. I have zero ownership experience with any non German car (my dad, after the two Hudson Hornets, had Chrysler products when I was growing up and he was a shade tree mechanic and Chrysler products in the 1960's required required a live in mechanic.)

Perhaps a satisfied Camry owner would logically almost naturally progress to a Lexus GS, etc. I would not imagine you would be dissatisfied.

The reviews of some of the Japanese cars usually complement the LPS offerings as "too perfect" too isolating.

The German cars and recently the M from Infiniti seem to have made the cut as being "really satisfying to drive."

You should test the cars extensively -- you should weigh your personal need for "reliability" -- you should get what you want.

No argument made by any of us here or in the car magazines is worth even a fraction of your opinion -- unless they are willing to buy the thing for you.

I continue to find Audis a satisfying and enjoyable experience. I am certain I would have found the M from Infiniti also quite acceptable. The BMW with the stick shift if it is priced to compete with the Infiniti and the Audi would certainly merit the most serious consideration -- but that is ONLY because I value the stick shift. The BMW would probably drop to second or third place were it to suddenly drop the manual option.

All opinions, all the time.

:shades:

bjbird2 · February 2006

I've been away from this interesting forum for a few weeks, and came back to 100's of new posts.
How do you people find enough time in the day for all this writing, and still make enough $$ to buy these LPS's? I get by on 4 hours sleep, and still can't find enough time.
There must be some magical formula... :confuse:

gohorns1 · February 2006

I did look at the GS one day when my "baby Lexus" was getting routine maintance. This was one time I did agree with the reviews, it was too isolating. It was not the car for me. Again, I was disappointed as I trust Lexus reliability. But needless to say, I am not going to buy a car only on reliability. Your absolutely correct, I am going to need to test drive the 5 and M45 more extensively. When I do, the decision should be clearer. I appreciate your comments.

lexusguy · February 2006

Have you heard the reports that Audi is rushing a Q5 and Q3 to market? I hope they dont take their eye off the ball as Mercedes did in order to get a bunch of new models out in a very short timeframe.

tayl0rd · February 2006

... How do you people find enough time in the day for all this writing, and still make enough $$ to buy these LPS's? ...

Haven't you figured it out yet? The more money you make, the less work you actually do! :P

markcincinnati · February 2006

The operative word is "delegation."

And, sad but true in my field (IT) we spend many cycles demoing, putting proposals together followed by waiting and waiting.

Where's a "good" (just kidding) Y2K crisis when you need one.

The market seems to be stronger in 2006, but for some of us, we still are "under-employed."

The only recompense however is somehwat more time to actually drive my LPS car. :shades:

erickpl · February 2006

The 5 Series, in E39 form, was known for its incredible reliability. I'd venture that the 3 AND 5 Series are not only BMW's biggest sellers, but their most reliable models. When the E60 came out, it had a lot of new technology, albeit some of it from the 7 Series. Those issues were reflected in their quality scores.

But those technologies have improved to the point where they are putting it in their 6's and 3's now, so they must be confident that the major issues have been dealt with. I know people who have had BMW's since the 1980's and have been to the dealer for only scheduled maintenance and an occasional issue. My 2002 BMW did not have one issue outside of the warranty period. All its little nits were during warranty (cluster controller failure right after purchasing, window regulators, and a cracked windshield due to Mojave desert heat and sun).

I would not hesitate to buy another BMW. I would not hesitate to buy an Audi either. Audi's suspension and mechanics are as reliable as BMW's, which I feel are very solid.

The biggest issues I think that face LPS owners is all the high tech extras, MMI, iDrive, Nav, Automatic xxx.

I am glad you really enjoy your Camry. You talk about friends who give bad anecdotal evidence about BMW and Audi. I've heard the bad anecdotal stories about Toyota/Lexus and even was witness to a transmission basically failing on a test drive (on a Camry no less). Based on that, I give Toyota/Lexus very close scrutiny when looking at their new offerings, just as I'm sure you look at BMW and Audi with a close, skeptical eye.

Having driven some Lexus's on a test drive and having driven BMW's and Audi's as well, I can say that the Lexus does indeed drive nicely and something to be considered in this segment. However, my driving orientation is towards feeling the road, seeing what the car can do. Based on what I've seen, felt, and read, nobody does it at this point in time like the German makers.

As Mark said, pretty much any car, short of my Jeep Wrangler, can be an expensive proposition to keep when outside of warranty. My 2002 was a pleasant experience in that my out of warranty costs for repairs was - $0.00. I can only hope that my future purchases are similarly priced for non-warranty expenses.

-Paul

dewey · February 2006

Unless you mean that Canada is lucky to get a torquey diesel Avant. Audi is considering selling its diesel lineup here.

Buying a new Audi turbodiesel on both sides of our border sounds fine to me, although California may be another story.

gohorns1 · February 2006

I feel the need to clarify, why I'm not sure, but I have been driving a Lexus ES300. I call it an expensive Camry, because it is a Camry in Lexus clothes. At the time I bought it, it was the right choice. I was not ready to enter LPS territory, but I wanted more than a Toyota. I have not been dissapointed by my choice.

Paul, thanks for your comments. I realize that these cars have good warranties and most problems will be covered. My concern is having to make repeated trips even to deal with warranty issues. Of course, that is just part of having a car. I agree with you that the GS is not what I am looking for as it has too little of the "s" in the LPS.

markcincinnati · February 2006

Luxury Performance Sedan -- LPS.

The GS has too little "sedan?"

The reviews seem to credit the GS cars with lots of Luxury, OK Performance and, well, it IS, after all, a sedan.

:confuse:

rich545 · February 2006

I honestly don't think that the E60 had that many problems considering it was a complete redesign. Most complete redesigns run into some problems that take a couple of years to work out. Mine has thankfully been trouble free (it's a 2004). I'd be willing to guess (though I don't know for sure) that the E39 had some problems in it's first couple of years too. Of the German LPS' I would say that MB is really the one dealing with quality issues right now; not BMW or Audi.

dan339g · February 2006

After 3 months my 2006 A6 3.2 continues to operate flawlessly, aside from a barely perceptible rattle that seems to appear only at below freezing temps, and then goes away when the car warms up. Of course, my 01 530i with 33K miles was extremely reliable until 3 months ago when I experienced cracked coil wires ($600), followed by the failure of the brake power booster and damage to the master cylinder (only 4 months out of warranty). Based on this $2K lesson, I will not be out of warranty with these wonderful, but "breathtakingly expensive" to repair vehicles again.

markcincinnati · February 2006

Indeed, Audi and BMW (not to slight Acura, Infiniti or Lexus, by any means) seem to be on a tear:

o awards out the wazoo,
o improving sales (record sales, in fact),
o a great pipeline of products current and near term,
o a decent if not stellar global economy and
o lots of warm fuzzies from the pundits (and us amateurs.)

Not much love here on the LPS forum about the STS's -- perhaps it is the "sale of the century" or something, but here in Cincinnapolis, there has been a proliferation of sightings of STS's -- and, frankly MOST of them have been the AWD flavors (as you might guess, I notice the little indication on the right rear decklid.)

My company's newest sales rep picked up her new 2006 CTS last Friday with ZERO upfront, 36 month 54,000 mile lease for $515 -- it has two options on it making the price about $40K -- seems like a very nice car (and yes I said CTS, even though my earlier comment pertained to the LPS STS.)

Just wondering if the STS owners lurk here or don't even participate.

As a commentary, it would seem that Cadillac would want all the representation here on edmunds it could get, for it would seems that being represented here on the LPS forum would be indicative of a "good buzz."

:surprise:

hpowders · February 2006

Do you notice how many posts occur during business hours and very few on the weekends?

Unless most posters are retirees, there is a lot of company time spent.......

hpowders · February 2006

All together since 1993- experiencing continuous BMW leaseship, I have had 12 years, 7 months of completely trouble-free leaseship. ( 2 325i's and now a 545)
And the returning experience has been completely tension and hassle free. And I do not believe my experience is the exception to the rule. I'm not that lucky!

I do believe anyone out there who is afraid of BMW need worry any more, IMO.

qbrozen · February 2006

heck, i have much better things to do at home than post on message boards.

hpowders · February 2006

We all do, yet by some unknown metaphysical force, here we are!

qbrozen · February 2006

the force isn't unknown. its a slow workday ... or week ... or month ... i think i lost track.

kinda odd when you have less free time at home than work. oh well.

bdr127 · February 2006

I know some of you are Canadian, but isn't there going to be a crackdown on diesel cars' emissions in the US in a couple years? I thought I read something about phasing out the Jetta TDI, as a result.... If that's the case, then the Germans better work on making a cleaner-burning car!

shipo · February 2006

The new Audi A8 in diesel guise is already cleaner than its gasoline sibling, and its faster to boot. BMW's 535d is also nearly as clean as the 530i and while slower off the line, between 20 and 100 mph, the 530i doesn't stand a chance against the diesel.

Best Regards,
Shipo

dewey · February 2006

In addition to what Shipo is saying about new diesels having lower emissions there will also be this year or next year a North American reduction in the sulphur content in diesel fuel.

In fact the new diesel MB Blutech displayed in the Detroit auto show is so clean that it can be sold in in every State of the USA.

The 1980's memories of diesels are a relic of the past, although my wife and I still drive a 1980's relic in the form of a 83 MB300D. The "D" also stands for Durability.

nebraskaguy · February 2006

The 1980's memories of diesels are a relic of the past, although my wife and I still drive a 1980's relic in the form of a 83 MB300D. The "D" also stands for Durability.

The "D" also stands for Disgusting if you have to breathe the fumes while stuck behind one at a stoplight or are following one for an extended period of time. Whenever I approach one, I automatically press the Recirculate button on my car.

dewey · February 2006

Disgusting is in the nose of the beholder.

In my case the fumes bring back nostalgic memories of my grandparents farm and tractors. Although my nostalgic memories do not include the smells of livestock dung :sick:

shipo · February 2006

Clearly you've never driven behind a modern diesel. I've spent some time in Europe (where they constitute one of nearly every two cars) and I've gotta tell you, you simply cannot tell you're following a diesel unless you can read the model designation of the car in front of you.

Disgusting? To me at least, that stands for the amount of misinformation and anti diesel bias that exists out there, the blame for which should be directed toward our buddies over at GM who managed to build some of the worst diesel cars ever imagined back in the 1980s.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nebraskaguy · February 2006

Clearly you've never driven behind a modern diesel.

I wasn't blasting ALL diesels. I was merely referring to the vintage diesel to which Dewey was referring. When replying to replies, you need to note the context of the original.

markcincinnati · February 2006

. . .seem to make hybrids even less logical.

The stories about the German cars with turbo diesels, their mileage, their power AND with European diesel, low emissions make them seem exactly what we need NOW.

Alternatives to IC engines are coming -- sometime. Today, based on all I can assemble, if we were offered an engine like the 4.2 TDI offered in Europe (which has been demonstrated to be able to power an Audi A8L at up to 40+MPG) would seem to be "just the ticket."

I drove the 2.5TDI and it smelled not, made noise that gave itself away not and smoked not.

It did have stump pulling torque and when coupled to a 6 speed manual was darn near an "S4" in acceleration.

It could cruise for hours on a single tank of fuel, too.

I applaud alternatives -- but we have reached a point where the clean turbo diesel is all about performance (and oh by the way, economy.)

What's NOT to like?

shipo · February 2006

No offence, but the context was not at all clear.

gohorns1 · February 2006

Oops, my bad, obviously I meant not enough of the "P", in my opinion perhaps too much of the "s"edan in terms of the way it drives. I guess this goes to prove that I am not a morning person.....

nvbanker · February 2006

Isn't it fascinating how BMW has perfected the old GM trick of making your car self-destruct as soon as the warranty is up?

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